Bad boys?

[Seraphim]

Yeah but this isn't always true, so it's not fair to automatically make this assumption if an inexperienced guy struggling with confidence feels this way. He just may need to be pointed in the right direction or given frank advice from some of his boys. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a woman hater.

 

To me that says I am going to whine about how horrible women are. I am so so out of there. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth of what a whiney baby my dad was. I would be done before it even started.

[John John]

To me that says I am going to whine about how horrible women are. I am so so out of there. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth of what a whiney baby my dad was. I would be done before it even started.

 

Romantically I assume most women would be out of there for reasons you already said. And I can understand that. But it doesn't necessarily mean the guy's a woman hater. He may have had a string of bad experiences and/or just need some constructive criticism/work on his confidence, etc.

 

It's similar to how women sometimes complain "there are no good men left." I don't think that necessarily makes them male haters. Maybe they need to work on their priorities (leave the arbitrary "requirements" behind), but not necessarily that they hate all men.

[Seraphim]

Maybe my age too. When I was 20 or 30 I might have stopped to consider that and pull someone along. At 50, no. At this point in my life I could never be with somebody who doesn't have them selves sorted out. I only have so many decades left to enjoy my life . My life is more than half done. I tried to help so many people sort themselves out including my husband. I can tell you 100% people can only do that themselves.

[tiredofvampires]

It's similar to how women sometimes complain "there are no good men left." I don't think that necessarily makes them male haters. Maybe they need to work on their priorities (leave the arbitrary "requirements" behind), but not necessarily that they hate all men.

 

I put the women that say that in the same category as the men (or anyone) who says, "Nice guys finish last."

 

"nice guys finish last" = "there are no good men left" = "the world is basically a hostile place and I intend to join it in kind because I'm a jaded, emotionally stunted person who is incapable of looking at people as individuals"

[lukeb]

I wouldn't say women are horrible, but they do rate men differently than men rate women. This is proven time again in survey after survey. Not true on the individual level of course but statistically they do tend to rate men a lot more harshly than men rate women. Roughly women only consider men in the top 15% to be better than average as opposed to men who would say that this is at the 50% level as far as attractiveness level. So most women think that they have to settle while in reality they really don't.

 

I think its biology, women do tend to go for the alpha male, historically we've never been monogamous, and in the more primitive cultures you also see alpha males having many wives and the majority of men just simply being out of luck. Only through intense cultural pressure do we have monogamy and marriage thrust upon us, it is kind of falling apart in recent times, I am pretty sure it all started falling apart after the advent of the birth control pill. The pill although great on the individual level, personal empowerment and all that, it has not been good for society. The feminism movement was just a reaction to the changing reality, but I doubt it had much impact.

 

Do women go for "bad" boys? Well it depends on your definition on "bad", but they definitely go for the alpha males. Alpha not only in physical looks but also how they dominate other men in the job market etc. The birth control pill did throw a monkey wrench into this, it is playing out into weird ways but we still can't escape our biology I think.

[Seraphim]

The bc pill has only been around for 51 years .

 

My husband is not an alpha and nor is he in the top 15% of society. I don't feel I " settled" for him. He was perfect for ME.

[John John]

I wouldn't say women are horrible, but they do rate men differently than men rate women. This is proven time again in survey after survey. Not true on the individual level of course but statistically they do tend to rate men a lot more harshly than men rate women. Roughly women only consider men in the top 15% to be better than average as opposed to men who would say that this is at the 50% level as far as attractiveness level. So most women think that they have to settle while in reality they really don't.

 

I think its biology, women do tend to go for the alpha male, historically we've never been monogamous, and in the more primitive cultures you also see alpha males having many wives and the majority of men just simply being out of luck. Only through intense cultural pressure do we have monogamy and marriage thrust upon us, it is kind of falling apart in recent times, I am pretty sure it all started falling apart after the advent of the birth control pill. The pill although great on the individual level, personal empowerment and all that, it has not been good for society. The feminism movement was just a reaction to the changing reality, but I doubt it had much impact.

 

Do women go for "bad" boys? Well it depends on your definition on "bad", but they definitely go for the alpha males. Alpha not only in physical looks but also how they dominate other men in the job market etc. The birth control pill did throw a monkey wrench into this, it is playing out into weird ways but we still can't escape our biology I think.

 

 

It's pretty simple. Men care more about looks, and women are more harsh and pickier with the overall "package" men bring to the table because they are the ones assuming more risk if they marry/mate with a given male (although like I think you said, the bc pill sort of changes this - but women still have the instinct to go for the best man they can get). If a woman chooses to have children with a certain male, she has to go through the pregnancy/giving birth process, and her children will inherit the father's genes. So while women definitely care about looks as well, they also care about intelligence/innate talents, status, height, earning potential/money, etc.

[Seraphim]

But if you think about it why would you want the father of your children to be somebody who can't even man a french fry stand? In the past that was life or death for your children. Women can only have so many children men can go have children all over the place.

[John John]

But if you think about it why would you want the father of your children to be somebody who can't even man a french fry stand? In the past that was life or death for your children. Women can only have so many children men can go have children all over the place.

 

I agree with you. Women can really only have so many children, so they have to be pickier with the father. And how this translates to modern times in my opinion is:

1. Despite bc, women still strongly prefer to sleep (during their "Sex and the City" college years/young-mid or late 20s) with such "alpha males" for lack of a better term because "babies" (however distant in the future at the time of hot and irresponsible sex) are always in the back of their mind

2. Women are even pickier because, since they're (rightfully so) pursuing their own careers, as they're delaying having children, they'll only have a window of a few years to do so, and so want the "best man for the job" even moreso

[Seraphim]

I agree with you. Women can really only have so many children, so they have to be pickier with the father. And how this translates to modern times in my opinion is:

1. Despite bc, women still strongly prefer to sleep (during their "Sex and the City" college years/young-mid or late 20s) with such "alpha males" for lack of a better term

2. Women are even pickier because, since they're (rightfully so) pursuing their own careers, as they're delaying having children, they'll only have a window of a few years to do so, and so want the "best man for the job" even moreso

Well that's the thing in the past women had to ensure that their children were going to survive. They only get so many opportunities at that. And it's really only the past 30 years that they've been able to support their own children. Picking a man that can't ensure the survival of his children would be a stupid move. But as I said men can have children all over the place so at least one of those kids will survive to pass on the genetic traits.

[Seraphim]

I would say though that women working and having the ability to support their own children changes society a lot. And actually it opens up the field to most men . Women no longer need to marry a super alpha to ensure the survival of their children because they themselves can provide for their survival.

[John John]

I would say though that women working and having the ability to support their own children changes society a lot. And actually it opens up the field to most men . Women no longer need to marry a super alpha to ensure the survival of their children because they themselves can provide for their survival.

 

I don't agree with this. I'm not here for the "who has it harder conversation," but I do believe that womens' empowerment (which is truly great - no one gender is, or has ever been, fundamentally better than the other) has made dating more difficult for men in many ways. No need to really get into it, but in terms of the "alpha" conversation, I think this has made women pickier. They don't need a man to support themselves anymore, so if they're going to pick a man, he'd better bring everything to the table that she wants.

[Seraphim]

Well, we can't go back to 1900 .

[John John]

Well, we can't go back to 1900 .

 

Oh absolutely, and I'm not suggesting that we take things back to the way they were. I don't want a stay at home housewife. But the fact of the matter is that womens' empowerment, I believe, has largely made them pickier when it comes to choosing men.

[TMifune]

I would say though that women working and having the ability to support their own children changes society a lot. And actually it opens up the field to most men . Women no longer need to marry a super alpha to ensure the survival of their children because they themselves can provide for their survival.

 

No, it closes the field off to most men.....because women have been programmed over millennia to search for someone stronger, faster, taller, more skilled, more powerful, better able to provide. So when a woman couldn't provide for herself, a man that could provide anything at all was a potential suitor. Now that women can provide X for themselves they demand a man that can provide them with X+1. It's almost ingrained, like a part of the biology. So as women get more and more successful, the field actually narrows for them, because on some biological level they actually consider those men who make less as sexually inviable.

 

Well, we can't go back to 1900 .

 

I don't think anyone's suggesting that we should. I would be nice to hear someone acknowledge that feminism has helped removed the social structures that used to restrain female hypergamy though.

[John John]

No, it closes the field off to most men.....because women have been programmed over millennia to search for someone stronger, faster, taller, more skilled, more powerful, better able to provide. So when a woman couldn't provide for herself, a man that could provide anything at all was a potential suitor. Now that women can provide X for themselves they demand a man that can provide them with X+1. It's almost ingrained, like a part of the biology. So as women get more and more successful, the field actually narrows for them, because on some biologically level the actually consider those men who make less as sexually inviable.

 

Yes. 100% this.

 

That's why, nowadays, height/money/muscles/some sort of "edge" are very important for men to succeed in the dating world. Women still want to be dominated (not in the violent sense!) by men even if they won't outright admit it, and with their rapid increase in power, there are very few ways left to do that. Hence why physical prowess (height/muscles) and status (career/money) and having an "edge" are super important.

 

There ARE still some women out there who will settle for men that don't really have any of these things, but this number of women is decreasing (and virtually non-existent if you live in cities like NYC, LA, Chicago, etc.)

 

I sometimes have no idea how I even get dates. Men have it rough. After accounting for womens' "expectations inflation," I'm really nothing special. lol

[Seraphim]

Ok. If it will make you all happy...... Yup us women are horrible biatches and you men have it so horrible.

 

We good now?

 

I will get back to my cookin & cleanin.

[John John]

Ok. If it will make you all happy...... Yup us women are horrible biatches and you men have it so horrible.

 

We good now?

 

I will get back to my cookin & cleanin.

 

No one said this Victoria. You are very black or white sometimes lol. I think in the posts in this thread and many of my other posts...I have APPLAUDED the progress women have made. I have REJECTED women who have told me that they wanted to eventually be a stay at home mom. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

But the fact of the matter is, yeah, this has made dating hard for a lot of guys out there. And there are plenty of women here on ENA I have seen flat out admit this (I won't call them out, not trying to drag anyone else into this). I probably shouldn't complain because I do get dates, but it's damn hard for many men out their to find their "equal" these days.

[TMifune]

Ok. If it will make you all happy...... Yup us women are horrible biatches and you men have it so horrible.

 

I was offering an analysis, not a judgement.

[Seraphim]

No one said this Victoria. You are very black or white sometimes lol. I think in the posts in this thread and many of my other posts...I have APPLAUDED the progress women have made. I have REJECTED women who have told me that they wanted to eventually be a stay at home mom. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

But the fact of the matter is, yeah, this has made dating hard for a lot of guys out there. And there are plenty of women here on ENA I have seen flat out admit this (I won't call them out, not trying to drag anyone else into this). I probably shouldn't complain because I do get dates, but it's damn hard for many men out their to find their "equal" these days.

Maybe I'm more black-and-white because I actually do remember a time when women were not considered equal in ANY case. People think of women being maligned is more of a 1900 thing. It isn't . Even in the 70s and 80s women were still being treated in society as not equal. You have to remember I was growing up in the 70s and 80s not the 1990s or 2000s. It was still actually a different society for women.

[John John]

Maybe I'm more black-and-white because I actually do remember a time when women were not considered equal in ANY case. People think of women being maligned is more of a 1900 thing. It isn't . Even in the 70s and 80s women were still being treated in society as not equal. You have to remember I was growing up in the 70s and 80s not the 1990s or 2000s. It was still actually a different society for women.

 

 

Fair enough. Women have indeed come a long way, and I don't think any men on here are trying to take away from that. I certainly wasn't.

 

But you're also not a young man living in and navigating through today's dating world. Try to be more empathetic to the fact things aren't necessarily equal for some men out there right now.

[Seraphim]

Fair enough. Women have indeed come a long way, and I don't think any men on here are trying to take away from that. I certainly wasn't.

 

But you're also not a young man living in and navigating through today's dating world. Try to be more empathetic to the fact things aren't necessarily equal for some men out there right now.

True. I have no idea what it is like to be a 30 year old man. I will concede . Will you concede you don't know what it is like to be a 50 year old woman?

[John John]

True. I have no idea what it is like to be a 30 year old man. I will concede . Will you concede you don't know what it is like to be a 50 year old woman?

 

Absolutely. I've always acknowledged the fact that women didn't always have a level playing field. And many men (dare I say, most) don't want a stay-at-home housewife who just cooks and cleans all day!

[Seraphim]

Absolutely. I've always acknowledged the fact that women didn't always have a level playing field. And many men (dare I say, most) don't want a stay-at-home housewife who just cooks and cleans all day!

 

It is more than though. When you went for a job did you ever get laughed that because of your gender? When I was 18 I went to apply for a position I was laughed at because I was female and basically given a pat on the ass and sent home. That's what was happening to me the year you were born.

[John John]

It is more than though. When you went for a job did you ever get laughed that because of your gender? When I was 18 I went to apply for a position I was laughed at because I was female and basically given a pat on the ass and sent home. That's what was happening to me the year you were born.

 

Understood. Neither of us really knows the experiences we've had to go through that give us our outlooks. All we can do is try to be empathetic of one another.

 

If it makes you feel any better, my boss' boss is a woman! lol