I'm not attractive, but I can work on my personality...

[Dougie_D]

OP,

 

If you like gaming then join gaming clubs.The percentage of women who game as a regular hobby/activity is smaller than other activities but maybe that is a start for you. LA has to have meetups for 'sedantary' activity like gaming, board games, pool, card playing. There has to be meetups where people get together and go to small venues and watch garage bands.

 

Think of ALL the stuff you like to do and search it on meetup. If you don't like to dance, hike etc then don't look those up. It is obvious you need to find a sedantary female counterpart.

 

I am wondering if my problem is because I don't touch women. I have a difficult time touching women romantically.

[blueidealist24]

To answer the original question, yeah, I have thought a guy was unattractive (almost ugly) in the past and then they became attractive to me after I got to know their personality. I agree that a regular activity would be an ideal place for this to happen because this occurred over about six months at a sports group. If I had just seen the guy once or occasionally, I may not have changed my mind. For the record, this didn't turn into a relationship, but that was nothing to do with looks. I scared the guy off by telling a friend that he was someone I'd want to marry (I was only 18 at the time, so I was a bit silly), and she told him. I understand now why this spooked him when we hadn't even been on a date, lol!

[sans]

Just continue to be yourself. The only thing I can think of to suggest to anyone about improving conversation or whatnot is to have some manners and be considerate. Otherwise, what other rules can there be? For your posts, you come off as quite picky about the girls you have met for someone asking how to get girls to see past their own first impressions.

 

Attractiveness is very subjective. I am also in the camp where how I view someone physically changes based on how they behave. It goes both ways, where someone will look unattractive at first but when I get to know them they become very attractive looking as I admire other traits, or someone who seems attractive initially will become less attractive if they behave in ways that turn me off to them.

[Batya33]

I'm not a people pleaser. What do you mean my "goal" is to make her comfortable in her own skin? If I feel like I'm making her uncomfortable I'll stop talking to her. I've had conversations where it's mostly about her and she never once asks anything about me. I'm a good listener when I feel she actually is interested in me too. I will purposely leave a conversation if she has no desire to know more about me.

Oh. And you never answered my question. Were you're friends female or male?

 

If you are overly friendly it might come accross as insecurity/being too much of a people pleaser. I would google about how to make people comfortable in their own skin and I'm not sure that you would know -especially in a bar setting -whether she is. It's not about "if she is uncomfortable I'll walk away" -I put it positively - you want people to be comfortable in their own skin and if they are when they are around you that can be a turn-on, attractive, etc.

 

When I've discussed friends I believe I meant both female and male - I don't see a lot of gender distinction here other than you want to date women -but getting to that point requires first having a good conversation and second the woman agreeing to continue that conversation one on one in a date setting.

 

As far as being a good listener -I wrote "active listener" -an active listener is interested in what the other person has to say and follows up with questions or insights that further the conversation. Good listener works well too especially if the other person has a problem. Active listening where you mirror body language and further the conversation is much more difficult if you've been drinking -or if you're in your own head too much -for example trying to come up with some goofball remark. sense of humor is awesome but not if it means you're in your head trying to come up with some funny line or saying something that has little to do with the conversation just to try to sound funny.

[Dougie_D]

I think you are talking about whether she has "her guard" up or not. Of course, when she has her guard down, it's way easier because I was able to break the barrier. But I'm not going to try to break that barrier if I notice her guard is up. I'm not going to try FORCE it. You can figure out if she's open to a conversation within seconds of her body language. It's mostly about how she positions her body and body parts to you. Hands crossed -- bad sign. Body slightly sideways --- good sign. Body mirrored? -- forget it...that's bad news.

 

I'm looking for the second part where she agrees to continue our conversation one on one. We can talk and talk but for some reason, when I ask her on a date, she'll say no. Some women just want to be friends. Honestly, it gets exhausting doing the same thing over and over and I get my heart broken. I'm only friends with women when I get past the fact that I don't want to be with them romantically. So if I am attracted to a someone and ask them out on a date, it will be very difficult for me to be just "cool with it". I usually get over it after a long period of time, or I never speak or see her again.

 

You said the perfect thing. I'm most likely daydreaming, or thinking in my head about the next segway. In order to continue conversations, there has to be some sort of segway or the topic gets boring and then conversation stops. I'm not a fast thinker. I'm most likely retarded in that part of the brain. I struggle with stories because my mind jumps around. And it's even worse when I'm nervous. Also, sometimes she can be not a great conversationalist. And it sucks, because I think the ones who struggle with the looks are actually BETTER conversationalists than people who are "better looking" My guy friend who is like a model, can't stand being in places where you have to strike up a conversation. He admits it. He does better at the dance clubs where he lets his body do the "talking". Social media has made it worse. So, after thinking about it...I could be doing things not ALWAYS right, but maybe it's because conversations is not her thing. Maybe I'm trying to communicate with certain women, when they just want to bump and grind or chit chat on text. I don't know... i'm just over it lately. I'm 34. I really should give up I think. I have friends that "applaud me" for not quitting on OKC after 5 years and running of not even getting ONE SINGLE DATE. and ALL that is conversations. And people can be more rude than you think. I've had a few messages go back and forth and then NOTHING. They leave the conversation and never return. I mean, if you are not interested, please have the courtesy to tell me. It's like they get freaked out when I ask "I would love to continue this conversation by meeting in person or we can exchange numbers just for now. " It's exactly like the real world. I can't get that SECOND part.

[Batya33]

I can't help you with the pity party. I've done my best to give suggestions and I'm glad to see how you're thinking about your social skills other than the pity party part - unproductive/self-sabotaging. I stand by all of my past suggestions in this thread and several others as to how to be in environments where it will be easier, more natural and more organic to meet like-minded people, including other guys who can introduce you to women.

 

I don't think it's rude at all to stop corresponding with a stranger on a dating site who you're not interested in meeting - it's fine to write one last email but fine not to as well. Focusing on that just allows you to continue the pity party.

 

I think you're getting in your own way and looking in the wrong places. I am very impressed that you were able to dissect potential weaknesses in your conversation style.

 

The first part of what you wrote about body language had nothing to do with what I wrote so I cannot respond.

[Dougie_D]

I probably think it's rude because I don't take these messages for granted. Any time I get a message I seize the opportunity to get to know the individual. I get a message back every 100th email. It's a time frame of 1 person replying back to me every month. I get extremely excited because I tell myself "yay! she wrote me back! she must be interested". Then I basically get my heart crushed to tiny pieces when it goes into oblivion again.

 

If you sent out a resume to 100 potential jobs and 1 company emails you back, you get excited right? You automatically think there is a potential interview ahead. So you write back and then they write back too. Great!!! Then you write again, and NOTHING. This is the EXACT feeling I personally get with online dating. It's a numbers game. You have to put yourself out there. I just get extremely bummed out. Then I feel like I should be homeless and should jump of a bridge. I don't like it. I can take rejection, but it sucks my life out of me where I see not potential anymore. Not a pity party. It's just a constant feeling. I CAN"T CONTROL the fact they aren't attracted to me. Lately, because I'm getting older, I would like to figure out how to not have this constant feeling of unworthiness. It's like I'm in quicksand with my head barely poking out to breathe. The thing is...there are things in life that you can control, but you can never control someone else's feelings they have for you. So the fact that I've never had someone tell me they honestly love and want to be with me hurts REALLY REALLY bad. Yeah, I can pay for sex. But that doesn't validate anything. You can't obtain love without the other one loving you back. I don't want to accept my fate.

[Batya33]

"Then I basically get my heart crushed to tiny pieces when it goes into oblivion again."

 

Nope -not the right mindset IMHO -you have to have a much much thicker skin about dating and especially about whether a stranger on a dating site writes back

 

. I've been looking for part time work over the last few months and intensely for quite awhile and I had to train myself to look at it like dating -with the thick skin. Yes it was and is upsetting when I don't hear but I put a lot of effort into managing my expectations just like I did with dating. So yes I can relate to the situation and can relate to indulging in that kind of reaction but you must learn to manage expectations. In dating I had no expectations that I would be asked out or asked to meet unless and until we had a time/place plan and then all I expected was that he would show up. That is all. One date at a time.

It's a pity party because you're focused on the negative, on the dramatic "my life is over" reaction just because someone doesn't choose to go on a date with you.

[Dougie_D]

If I've experienced an online date, then I wouldn't be so consumed about how it makes me feel. I could say "but it might be like the other date, so it's better that you didn't get to date her"..or something like that.

 

I mean for example, what if you have been looking for a part time job all your life? You've never even had a job. You are 34 years old. You can't even get a dang interview?!

 

It's more the fact that I've never experience the situation to allow myself that it's okay, and I just have to be patient.

[Dougie_D]

But you have to have some sort of EXPECTATION there is no reason to bother with the situation. If I'm not expecting some type of feedback from my messaging to all these women, why even bother to message in the first place?

[Batya33]

But you have to have some sort of EXPECTATION there is no reason to bother with the situation. If I'm not expecting some type of feedback from my messaging to all these women, why even bother to message in the first place?

 

I did not expect any type of feedback. I bothered to message and to do all I could to find a spouse because my expectation was that if I put in all my effort, did my best, did my best to act in a positive way, that if it did not work out and I never married I would know I had tried my best. Same with my career and academic goals (and parenting goals). And if I did have expectations they were minimal and therefore it was very rare that I experienced any type of extreme reaction to being disappointed or rejected. Certainly breakups were painful -at the relationship level we all have expectations that we hope things to work out in the long term but again it's about managing expectations and living the sort of life where you don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[blueidealist24]

OP, I understand your frustration that you feel like you're having NO success while other people, like other posters in this thread, are having at least OCCASIONAL success with dating (or job searching), but I'm not sure what the solution is, for dating anyway. I do see that you've managed to find full-time employment when you didn't have that two years ago, so that is a step in the right direction for you on that front at least. I know that's not what this thread is really about though.

 

You probably feel like if you could get that one date, that would make things a little bit better and give you a bit more hope, but I've had limited success with dating and up until recently dealt with men very poorly, so I don't really have the answers. Recently I decided I didn't really care about men and am now able to converse with them better without being needy or emotional, and maybe that "not-caring" mentality would help you, but for me it just makes me totally unmotivated to even try to date them. I called off my last online date and haven't been on the sites much since.

[saluk]

But you have to have some sort of EXPECTATION there is no reason to bother with the situation. If I'm not expecting some type of feedback from my messaging to all these women, why even bother to message in the first place?

 

If you have a problem, it's this. You are bringing too much expectation into every conversation - and I expect your expectations wildly fluctuate. "Oh she likes me! No wait she hates me! Oh, but maybe she likes me!" You are far too focused on the impact of your words/behavior and how that is making her feel. I think you need to be LESS attentive, have LESS expectation (either way) - because your expectations are leading you astray. You want so badly to make a connection that you don't appear natural. Because you AREN'T acting natural. Get out of your head, stop over-analyzing body language, and learn how to just enjoy the little moments.

 

Dating can be fun, but it's also really painful. You can't, especially online, treat every message as a sign that something is headed somewhere. Those messages are just leads, like if you were a sales representative. Most of those leads are not going to lead to a sale, but you follow up on them anyway. (This may be a bad analogy, because if you actually act like you are trying to sell something, you may come off like a used car salesman lol)

 

Expect that you will be able to get better at conversing. Expect that eventually, the dating process (whatever your dating process ends up looking like) will bring you what you are looking for. But also expect that you are going to have to break a few eggs, break a few hearts (including your own) and expect that the next 100 responses you get on a dating site are probably going to be a footnote in the story and not a full chapter. I know that after my first serious relationship 3 years ago, this process has led me to good places. I have more friends, am more comfortable in my own skin, and worry a lot less about how I look to other people. I am getting closer to understanding what I am looking for in a woman, and am finding it easier to get to the first date. Actually had a 2nd date recently. I can look back and see that things are getting better. Hopefully it doesn't stop I believe that things can get better for you too.

 

But you have to stop focusing on what you want to get out of it, and learn to enjoy the ride.

[Batya33]

I agree totally with Saluk except that I think the OP is very resistant to making changes that could greatly improve his chances of meeting someone and is getting in his own way so it's not just about continuing to do what he's doing right now.

[Dougie_D]

Well, I didn't use to care what people thought of me until I realized that what they thought of me was not on the good side....which caused rumours, etc.. I used to act the way I wanted, wear the things I wanted to wear, etc... and I felt like those actions backfired on me. So I honestly HAVE TO CARE what people think, or I won't have boundaries. I feel natural when I get up and do whatever I want without any restrictions. For example, I'm rocking like a Ron Jeremy look, but I guarantee that some women co-workers are going to look at me like some sort of perv. I don't know why. I treat the way I look like Halloween. It's always a costume. The real me is butt naked. Does that make sense?

 

I think people get annoyed by my natural self. My natural self is definitely more selfish. I honestly am pretty full of myself and extremely cocky. My personality is a FLAW against normal society. So I do have to work on my natural self... and you are right... sometimes I come off un natural and I try too hard.

[Batya33]

Yes, if you choose to behave in a selfish and cocky way people who are reasonably secure in themselves are not going to want to play in the sandbox with you so to speak. It is a choice. Human beings are naturally selfish in certain senses - our sense of survival - but human beings have the miraculous power to choose how to behave and interact and when we care about other people -love, like, platonic, romantic, whatever, we change our attitude and behavior to act in a thoughtful or caring way. That's a huge basis of friendship and romantic relationships.

 

My son is 6 and has been learning social skill and how to share, be considerate, etc for years now. It wasn't "natural" in that sense although in general his temperament and personality lean towards thoughtfulness and kindness. If yours doesn't lean that way ,no problem - you just have to choose to put in the effort and "fake it till you make it".

 

If you want no restrictions in your life then do not seek out a committed romantic relationship. There will be restrictions but there will be rich rewards too so it depends if the rewards are worth the restrictions. Less restrictions in a casual relationship or going on dates but less rewards (at least what I think of as rewards).

[Dougie_D]

Well, how do I take my natural cockyness and turn it into a positive? Or make it where I'm geniune nice. Maybe people can see right through me. That I'm trying to be nice. I've grown to be a bitter person. I can be enourmously jealous at people but I counter my jealousy by the fact that I have things that they wish that have too. I don't rub it in their faces but I'm like "but I'm not used to working, I didn't have my first job until 25.".. That's probably where my selfish ways came about. In all honestly, I don't have to work. I know in the back of my mind, if I quit, I'd still be fine. So sometimes, I feel like I have a "I will always be better than you" in certaiin areas. That's part of my frustration too. Why am I suffering at a 10 dollar job, when I know I'll get that same amount of money without working if I chose to ask?

[Batya33]

Because you first accept that cockiness isn't natural, it's a choice and you can make a different choice even though it's easier to act as you do in certain ways. You don't turn it into a positive, you stop the cocky behavior and have as your goal that your actions are thoughtful, kind, considerate, respectful. Learn and practice humility. (It's as simple as the books on the "invisible bucket" -google it -he wrote a kid's book recently about the invisible bucket but it comes from his adult books). Don't "try to be nice". There's no trying, just doing and not -doing.

 

I never, ever wished I wanted to not have to work, and certainly not until I was 25. I don't wish that now. I would find it a burden to be dependent on my parents for money. I know very few people who would want to be in your shoes because it can impact a healthy work ethic and it reflects poor parenting choices (not saying you have bad parents, I just don't agree with their choices) to let a grown adult believe that he need not work for a living. Even if there is enough money so that work isn't necessary. Nothing to do with wealth. You're no better than anyone else just because you were born into a family with money. And you're not worse either. It just is.

 

If you don't like your job, quit it and let someone who really wants it have it but then pursue whatever your real career goal is or pursue a way to dig deep and find your passion. People without a passion, a direction, often come accross as uninteresting.

[Dougie_D]

I already accepted the fact that no one will hire me for my dream job, so I created it (in a way). I got an LLC for my record label. But the reality is, I just can't quit the job. It pays my bills. Music is not the way it used to be. I need a part time job that allows me to focus more on my label and won't distract me.

[Batya33]

I already accepted the fact that no one will hire me for my dream job, so I created it (in a way). I got an LLC for my record label. But the reality is, I just can't quit the job. It pays my bills. Music is not the way it used to be. I need a part time job that allows me to focus more on my label and won't distract me.

 

That is great -if you can create it "in a way" then you also have the tools to create the personal life you want - the same basic tools. Above you wrote you can quit your job and your parents will pay your way. Now you write that you cannot.

[Dougie_D]

That is great -if you can create it "in a way" then you also have the tools to create the personal life you want - the same basic tools. Above you wrote you can quit your job and your parents will pay your way. Now you write that you cannot.

 

What I'm saying is that have a safety net if I need it but it has to be a reason to need it now. I honestly don't know if they would pay my way if I quit. They would help me financially if my job fired me and as long as I was looking for a job.

 

Can we get back on topic here?:

 

So the only way to be attractive after being unattractive is to not care? That sounds stupid. If first impressions really do matter, then I totally understand why women reject me. I'm not like other guys. I don't play the stereotypes. I am attracted to the rocker types. Hipsters, metal chicks, etc.. but I don't dress like their counterpart. I am attracted to that lifestyle but not the who fashion, stereotype part...does that make sense? I don't dress the part. I dress like a normal dude that plays golf. Plus, musical people are less likely to follow college sports. NONE of my musical friends did. The ones that talked sports with me, were the ones that weren't in bands. If you could put every stereotype around me, I would have 1 foot there, 1 arm there, another foot there, etc..... I'm wondering if that's a dealbreaker for me? Like, do you think I started to dress like a hipster/rocker, maybe women of that kind would think of me more attractive?

[Batya33]

I was on topic -you started writing about your financial situation and your misguided (IMO) view that people would be jealous of it.

 

I can't respond to what you wrote about not caring because I don't relate. I never fit into a stereotype and still do not. What I did about that was broaden my world by getting involved in a variety of groups, organizations, activities so that I met a wide variety of people. I never had a real group of friends I regularly did things with -I had friends here, there, everywhere and had an active and varied social life. I did have stability when I was in relationships- then we had regular plans with each other and with our various friends/families.

 

If you are limiting yourself to "rocker types" then you are stereotyping. Start getting to know a variety of people as individuals whatever their interest. Who knows -gasp! - you might learn something, discover a new interest, find common ground. For example I am not artistically inclined but for the last 2 decades or more I've always had artist friends -often theater but also fine arts. I worked with artists for quite awhile in my career too but that was separate. My artist friends discuss their art with me and I am very interested and learn a lot. I don't dress like an artist or do art. But they don't care. Why should they?

[itsallgrand]

I want to work more on my body language. I sometimes will have a hard time hearing, so when I listen (and even talk sometimes) I'll tend to LEAN in a bit. Someone told me that can cause a girl to think I'm creepy.

 

What have you done about that, Doug?

 

You ever spend time in the community that deals with that exactly - hearing clinics, centers, etc, that community of folks?!

 

Do you read lips? Sign?

 

Don't know the degree of your hearing loss/impairment, but it's another avenue to look into. Working on your communication skills with people who know all about those particular challenges, and have figured out some really good skills for overcoming that barrier/difference when talking with people without hearing impairments. And those with too.

 

It would broaden how you can communicate, and friends you make.

 

Not by any means the only thing you could work on, but there's another lead so to speak.

[Dougie_D]

Well, I think women judge more about appearances than men. I'm in the same boat. I hang out with rockers, but I don't dress the part. But all my rocker chick friends are dating guys that dress the part. I hang out with fit people who work out all the time. I'll go and do a workout with them, but I've heard numerous times that they prefer someone who is just as fit as them, who likes to work out, etc... Within your artist friends, was there a couple that seemed like a mis-match? Maybe the guy looked like a total jock, but loved going to art shows. Or maybe he didn't really dress the artsy look...more of a hipster look? Or would they have dated a guy that wasn't into art or theatre at all?

 

I would love to date someone with common interests, but I feel like they wouldn't date me because I don't match what the stereotype is. But it's not just looks. I LOVE hardcore metal/screamo but I also LOVE country music and top 40 disney/pop stuff. People who are "indie" I guess are "against" the mainstream music for some reason. I might be too well rounded on my musical taste for the worst.

[Dougie_D]

What have you done about that, Doug?

 

You ever spend time in the community that deals with that exactly - hearing clinics, centers, etc, that community of folks?!

 

Do you read lips? Sign?

 

Don't know the degree of your hearing loss/impairment, but it's another avenue to look into. Working on your communication skills with people who know all about those particular challenges, and have figured out some really good skills for overcoming that barrier/difference when talking with people without hearing impairments. And those with too.

 

It would broaden how you can communicate, and friends you make.

 

Not by any means the only thing you could work on, but there's another lead so to speak.

 

I'm never going back to that road again. If my hearing gets worse all of sudden and I can't hear, I'll just accept my social life to go down the dumps to my grave with me. I wore hearing aids up until 6th grade. My hearing improved after surgery. My hearing fluctuates at times when my sinuses or a cold starts to develop. My hearing is better than what I was born with though. I wasn't deaf enough to need to learn sign language or read lips. Basically I was born like a 60 year old's hearing. Elementary school was probably the worst time of my life. That's confidence that I'll never gain back. Those kids were extremely cruel to me. Like moving their lips and acted like they were talking, knowing that I would turn up the volume on my hearing aid, and then scream in my face. I'm not sure if I cried. I think I just accepted that it was meant for me to be joked on. That's probably where my goofiness comes. I've always learned that it's easier for people to laugh at my actions. Now, I think it's manifested into my personality.

And too be honest, I think a lot of times I hear things just fine, but I might be trying to focus to hard on hearing the sounds but not the actual words coming out. That could also be part of my mind wondering in space.