modesty/shy guy vs. arrogant bad boy

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

Yes exactly, spot on....getting to know each other should be the thing that causes the excitement and anticipation...but being the nice guy and pouring your heart out all at once does not do that.

 

I've been on this site for over a year now, and i've also seen lots of posts about the nice guy thing. A lot of the posts i have seen are from girls saying that they have been screwed over, and are looking for the 'nice guy' who will not screw them over. But the thing is, nice guys can still screw them over. Emotions change.

 

You say we should listen to some of the girls on this site huh?? Well how about i point you to some of my female friends, who talk about things like "oh yeah i dated this guy for a while, but i ended it because he was just too nice...there was nothing more to him than niceness and always being polite...i wanted something a bit more rough and ready, a bit more wild".

 

The girls who are not asking about the mysterious game playing guys are not asking because they are out there WITH the mysterious guys.

 

Infact the girl i am currently interested in LOVES the teasing and the flirting and the tension that it creates.

 

Girls are also tired of playing games, at least the good ones who are looking for a long term commitment.

 

Not all are tired of playing games. Not the ones i am interested in anyway!! And they are looking for long term commitment - i even had a conversation with one of them about it...who actually said that everyone she is interested in now, she is looking to see if they could be long term material. But she still loves the game of finding out!!

 

The bottom line that I'm getting at is intent. The true nice guy does what is right for the simply reason that it is right.

 

Huh?? Does what is right because it is right?? What are you talking about?? I do the right thing. What exactly have i done that is 'wrong'. Flirted with women who flirt back? Teased women who tease back? Holy crap, lock me up and throw away the key!!!

 

You say about a jerk putting his own desires first, but you are doing that as well to some extent. You are playing your own game to get the girl - you are being nice, you are saying things that they will like to hear (although you are saying them because you would say them anyway). Well that is the same with me. I have said that exact same thing to someone before about an exam. SO have 95% of people - it is the polite thing to say, even if you don't really believe it.

 

However, i simply can not believe at all that if you are interested in a girl, and she seems interested in you, that you pay a compliment to her without at least PART of it being about stroking her ego. It is just not possible.

 

I think the problem does lie in the fact that we are talking abuot different things here...i am talking about dating and attraction, you are talking about what i would call 'relationships'. Of course i am different when i am in a relationship to when i am merely flirting with someone.

 

Relationships aren't about power, control, or what you get out of it

 

If relationships aren't about what you get out of it, then it really doesn't matter whether or not you give the girl everything she wants, and fulfil her need for support.

 

And your last point as well:

 

The excitement comes from each new experience together and learning more and more about each other. The anticpation is wondering what you are going to do together next and if and when your going to make it official. Learning new things about each other is like unwrapping a present and wondering whats inside, making eveyday feel like Christmas. All of this excitement can be gotten without ever having to play games, hold things back, be mysterious, etc

 

I could make everyday feel like Christmas, but that would become pretty stale after a while, because the feeling of Christmas would soon become the norm, and you would find yourself wanting MORE. By not building up the expectation that everyday will be like that, you make things more special when they do happen. Life and relationships are not about making every little day feel special. It is much better to make random days special. Ask any woman, would she rather wake up everyday knowing exactly what to expect - that it will feel just like Christmas...or would she rather wake up not knowing whether there is a lovely surprise for her at some point during the day? I guarantee you that women who really know what they want (as opposed to the hollywood idea of what they should want) would say they would rather have the surprise and spontanaeity rather than the boring normal routine.

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

Maybe your just not running into the right girls. I'll admit that this view is in the minority, but there are still plenty of girls who agree with me. I've also never said that pouring out your heart all at once or too soon is the way to go. I'm trying to get at taking things naturally. The way you guys are making out, you intentionally hold things back for the fun and thrill of it. I'm saying it's more fun to actually say and do things then to wait. You don't want to rush in and spill your guts all at once to her, but you can't hold things back because you think you should be doing it as part of some game. Follow your heart and your instincts, it will guide you. If your feeling something, say it. A girl wants someone she can trust to be honest with her, not someone who won't share things with her.

 

Yes nice guys can "screw them over." I mentioned that we all have nice and mean characteristics in us and that no one is perfect. But a jerk is highly more likely to do that a nice guy. And what's worse is that the jerk may do it on purpose and/or not really care that he did. A nice guy would only do it under extreme circumstances and even then feel remorse for his actions.

 

I knew someone would say they have female friends who broke up with a guy because he was "too nice." I can't say for certain witout knowing the exact details of the situation, but I'm willing to bet there was more to it then that. First question, how old are these girls? I find that the older a girl gets, the more she learns to appreciate niceness in a guy. I've stated numerous times that when your young the mindset is generally be wild and crazy. But as you grow older your priorites change. And don't think that just because someone is always nice and polite that they can't be rough and ready. Odds are they could be wilder than you could ever be, they just choose to keep it under wraps. Perhaps the have a wild streak a mile long but aren't going to reveal it except for that one special personthey end up with. Then again, what is wild anyways? Could it be a state of mind and not something concrete. Finally, if the girl doesn't appreciate the guy being who he is, then the relationship isn't meant to be. That's fine. But not that he still went out with her and that she was attracted to him in some way. Their personalities just didn't match.

 

Ok, so some girls like games. I've already said that. But many are sick of it. Again I wonder about the age. Game playing seems all fun for awhile and then you just get sick of it. In the end, honesty and sincerity are what "wins" out. And even if 99% of girls like games, that leaves 1% that doesn't. I'll stick with those girls.

 

I'm not saying you specifically have done something wrong, without knowing the exact details I can't say for sure. But people who put there egos first, play these games to try and gain the power in a relationship... they are the ones who are doing things wrong. They are the real jerks. I am not playing a game. I don't say these things with any thought of how I'll look or what I'll get from it. The just pop into my head and I say them because they are nice and I believe it. When I completely her on the exam, I wasn't trying to be polite. I said it because she is smart and I do think she aced it. In fact, we've both commented on how ridiculous it is that people say things just to be polite or because it's what you are expected to say. We believe in being totally honest. In her own words, "if you want the truth, come to me." And yes, when I compliment someone it has nothing to do with ego, it is strickly about expressing how I feel or what I'm thinking and being nice to her.

 

To me, why would you "merely flirt" with someone. As I've said, flirting isn't something you try to do, it's something that should be natural. Dating, attraction, relationships aren't separate entities. They all exist together. If you want to get to know someone before you have a relationship, trying simply being a friend. No need for any pressure of dating or playing the game, just get to know each other without any expectations or thought of where this could lead. If your right for each other, you'll end up knowing.

 

Love and relationships are unselfish. You shouldn't think about what you are getting, only what you are giving. If the relationship is good, both sides will give unselfishly of themselves and it will all balance out. Yes, you get something in return, but that shouldn't be what concerns you. It should be a wonderful feeling that happens and you can enjoy, but that's not why you go into a relationship. I heard this somewhere, "Love is about fluttering the wings of your partner." It's about helping them to be the best they can be, not about helping yourself.

 

Last, you said that life and relationships are about making random days special. Not true. It also isn't about making every day feel special. When you have a truly great relationship and are happy with your life, EVERYDAY IS SPECIAL. You don't make them special, they just are. The thing about Christmas is that you never know what to expect. Each present you open is a new mystery in itself. It's a new surprise. Maybe I am more in touch with the child in me who remembers the excite of waiting for Santa to come. But the best relationships are special every day and you get that feeling of excitement just knowing you've found someone thats right for you. Then those extra surprises on random days just serve to intensive the feeling of specialness.

 

If it sounds Holloywood, thats good. To many people think that movies are just fantasy and that they'll never happen. But anything is possible when we set our minds to it. I know that most people don't think like this and I'm fine with it. But somewhere out there is someone who does. And when we finally meet, our love will be everything we've ever dreamed. You might not believe its possible and that what you see tells you otherwise. But seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing.

[Double J]

 

If it sounds Holloywood, thats good. To many people think that movies are just fantasy and that they'll never happen. But anything is possible when we set our minds to it. I know that most people don't think like this and I'm fine with it. But somewhere out there is someone who does. And when we finally meet, our love will be everything we've ever dreamed. You might not believe its possible and that what you see tells you otherwise. But seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing.

 

This "Hollywood" type of meeting might only happen IF you're putting in some kind of effort to go out and meet women. It's not about going out and finding women - it's about becoming more social by establishing connections with people. Usually meeting someone will help you meet other people - people meet others through others.

 

But if you're waiting for a girl to come knocking on your door saying "Hi, I like you, do you want to go out sweety?", then you're in for a major disappointment. Given your name on this forum, I'm not sure if you're really putting the effort. I understand that it's harder for people when they have to work and have other responsibilities, but still... you can still reserve at least one or two days of the month to go out and try to meet people. You have to put yourself in situations where you can do this, but with the ultimate purpose of it benefiting you - working out, karate, school organizations, etc.

 

Do you understand where I'm going with this? I'm not trying to put you down in any way. I was once like you thinking of a fairy tale romance type of thing. Sometimes meeting someone like that comes down to luck - being at the right place at the right time. You might use what I told you about my ex and I as an example of this, but if I wouldn't have decided to join the club that led me to compete and meet her on the trip, it wouldn't have happened. Do things to better yourself, and in the process, you'll meet girls that are trying to do the same. That ties into what you said, ShySoul, about things happening naturally. But just sitting around and not doing anything about it is not letting things flow naturally - it's just using excuses not to take action. Talking to girls online is a good tool, I'll give you that. But don't prolong meeting her in person for too long, because then you might build an idealized image of her that might not be consistent with reality.

 

If you're looking for a girl to "complete" you, then I think you have to change your mindset. Women don't complete you - you complete yourself! Women are just a bonus. Why? Because a woman can be in your life one day, and could just walk away the next week. But you'll still be you. That's why women precisely want men who have active lives and don't drop everything they're doing for them.

 

Another thing - instead of thinking that the girl you're searching for is the "prize" so to speak, think of yourself as the prize. Think that whoever you choose will be lucky enough to have you - not the other way around. But you obviously have to know that this is true. For example, if a guy isn't happy with himself and gets flustered around women, would he really be a prize? You have to work on yourself to be the best you can be - that's all there is to it.

[spatzcolumbo]

You think i am doing something wrong, fair enough. I'm loving my life at the moment, i am doing all the stuff you are doing, but in a different way. I'm not manipulating anyone, i'm not flirting with anyone just for the sake of it. I flirt with people who i find attractive. It doesn't mean i want to have a relationship with them. It just means i find them attractive, and i'm letting them know that. Flirting is a form of compliment.

 

You say maybe i am running into the wrong girls. Personally i think its the other way round - i am running into the right girls. Maybe they are the wrong girls for you, but for me i love it, and i have a great time with them. The way i see it, we all have fun. And for your info, these girls are between 24 and 26 years of age. Its not always about having a relationship...sometimes it is just about having a bit of fun.

 

You say as you get older your priorities change. Well you are right, they do. Mine have changed. I am no longer the guy who has the priority of being thought of as the nice guy by everyone. So some people might not like me, i don't care. As long as the people who i want to be around like me, then thats what matters. my priorities have changed - i want to have fun. I want meeting people to be fun. And i want to do it in my own way. So i do.

 

Game playing seems all fun for awhile and then you just get sick of it.

 

Maybe you're not playing the game right

 

I'm not saying you specifically have done something wrong, without knowing the exact details I can't say for sure.

 

Let me clear things up for you...i HAVE NOT done anything wrong. There is no right or wrong, there are just different personalities. Just like you haven;t done anything wrong.

 

To me, why would you "merely flirt" with someone. As I've said, flirting isn't something you try to do, it's something that should be natural.

 

Flirting to me IS natural - i just do it. If i am attracted to someone, then more often than not, i will flirt with them.

 

Love and relationships are unselfish. You shouldn't think about what you are getting, only what you are giving. If the relationship is good, both sides will give unselfishly of themselves and it will all balance out. Yes, you get something in return, but that shouldn't be what concerns you. It should be a wonderful feeling that happens and you can enjoy, but that's not why you go into a relationship. I heard this somewhere, "Love is about fluttering the wings of your partner." It's about helping them to be the best they can be, not about helping yourself.

 

You speak as if i have never been in a relationship, whereas in actual fact it is you who has never been in a relationship. I came out of an 18 month relationship just over a year ago. It completely ruined my life for 7 months. I'd appreciate not being told what a relationship is about. And another thing...you know what she told me? Even after it all, she said i was one of the nicest blokes she had ever met.

 

But anything is possible when we set our minds to it.

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but most of your recent posts have mentioned that you DON'T set your mind to anything...you are just natural. Setting your mind to things is a way of identifying a plan to reach your goal - eg - getting what you want.

 

Can we just agree to disagree on this one?? You clearly have your own thoughts on it, as does everyone else who has posted. I just wanted to make my points, including that what can seem the perfect vision now will not be so in five years time. And that goes for both me AND you.

 

Goodnight.

[ShySoul]

Double J

 

Umm, have I ever said I wasn’t meeting people? I meet people everyday through the course of ordinary events. Your exactly right, the main purpose is improving me. Hence I join a club at school to help me professionally. Yes, it has exposed me to social situations, but they still haven’t helped as far as relationships or dating as I still have very little in common with those people besides our major. I don’t have to go out and make connections, it could happen at any moment. A couple years ago I became interested in a girl I was tutoring. That wasn’t a social situation, it was a job. Yet I still met someone wonderful who I would have liked to go out with. I didn’t because I let my fears and nerves get the better of me, but that’s not the issue. Point is, I wasn’t looking and I wasn’t even trying to expose myself to new people, it just happened. Same thing with the girl I was emailing. I asked her for advice and we happened to have a lot in common. I wasn’t looking for anything or even trying to expose myself to new people. It just happened.

 

If anything happens between me and this new girl I’m chatting with, it will happen not because I was exposing myself to new people. I went into a chat room for a couple of minutes, found it was the usual weirdoes and perverts chatting, and left. She must have seen my profile because she messaged me. I’m not using the internet to meet people, these things just happened. So I stopped trying. And I know she is a girl since we did talk on the phone. Plus, she brought up meeting in person. So if she’s not who she says she is, why would she be the one initiating everything? I’m not looking for anything out of this. I’m just enjoying talking to someone who actually shares my beliefs, opinions and interests. Let’s say she has issues. Maybe what a girl like that needs is a friend who will be willing to be there for her and help her work through things. There’s a possibility that doing so could cause us to grow closer to the point where something develops. But if it doesn’t, so what. At least I’ll have the satisfaction of knowing I helped someone out and made there road to happiness a little bit easier. Thing is, it could happen at anytime, so there’s no real point in even worrying about. Live your life, focus on you, and don’t let relationships or dating enter into things. That should be at the furthest reaches of your mind.

 

The more beautiful a girl is, the more likely she is to have guy after guy hitting on her. Which is where just being friends is better. She probably gets plenty of both people, those playing games and those showering her with compliments. So don’t be either. Be yourself. Be a friend and be nice. A nice guy doesn’t go overboard and give her everything in sight, he knows to be thoughtful and do things that are considerate. But he also doesn’t try to be a challenge. He lets what is be what is. All this is assuming that you can even put a label on what a beautiful girl is. But outer beauty isn’t true and appearances can be deceiving. True beauty is from within. When you focus purely on being friends and get to know her, then you’ll find the truly beautiful girls, usually ones you wouldn’t expect based purely on looks.

 

The best time to be a true nice guy is all the time, if for no other reason than that being nice is the right thing to do. Plus, wouldn’t you want the girl to know exactly who you are? Girls do want the true nice guy and if you are like that at all times, your more likely to get to the point where you will be in a relationship. Also, you don’t “land” a girl. You don’t get or when her either. What happens is that a relationship develops.

 

Women don’t so much complete you as they provide that missing element that enables you to be whole. I am perfectly content to be myself and feel very much complete. I feel so comfortable with myself, that I don’t even need to think about meeting girls or having relationships. By saying that I’m going to wait until the right one comes along and not put my energy into finding her, I’m effectively saying that I am 100% content with focusing on my life and making myself complete. I don’t need a female in my life to do that. But everyone has a longing to be understood for who they are, to be appreciated, and to be loved. That’s what is meant by “completing you.” Relationships provide these things and give us strength when we are feeling down. We may complete and can be whole by ourselves, but when two people love each other, they create something greater than that whole.

 

I don’t think of the girl as a prize. That would be relating it back to a game where the goal is to win and get the prize. Likewise, I’m not the prize either. If anything is the prize, it’s love. I’ve already acknowledged that you should focus on being the best you can be. But just because someone gets flustered around women doesn’t mean they aren’t or aren’t trying. Being the best we can be is about embracing our potential, our personalities, and ourselves. It includes coming to terms with who you are inside, and some people just happen to be naturally shy and get flustered easily. There is nothing wrong with it and not necessarily something that needs to be changed. In fact, a lot of girls would find it cute and like it. You can be happy with yourself without having to change certain things. I’ve grown in confidence quite a bit over the years, and I did that by embracing my personality, not thinking it was something I needed to change. At one point I wouldn’t have been able to defend my view in the face of three people trying to convince me otherwise. Now I can because I’ve accepted who I am and I couldn’t be more proud of it.

[ShySoul]

spatzcolumbo,

 

First I'm not saying you are wrong for what your doing, I just believe that in the end you'll see that your way doesn't get you where you want to be and mines does. You've agreed that at your age most people are just out to have fun. But as they grew older they begin to see that it isn't as much fun as it once was. Your way leads to "fun times," my way leads to forever. I've always thought differently than others my age so maybe I'm just ahead of the "game" so to speak. I'm skipping the pleminaries of dating around and looking to go stright to the big game, a real relationship that hopefully lasts a lifetime. I don't find these games fun, the real fun will be being with that one girl that I've waited for. Your priorties will change and then you'll probably get what I'm saying.

 

Let me clear things up for you...i HAVE NOT done anything wrong. There is no right or wrong, there are just different personalities. Just like you haven't done anything wrong.

 

Again, I'm not claiming you are doing something wrong. But there is right and wrong. You might not have done anything wrong know, but we've all done wrong things before.

 

Sorry, you had a rough time with the relationship. I know how rough it is, even though I haven't been in one myself. I do know. I've seen relationships that could only be described as hell and I've seen them from an early age. I know more about relationships you would think. And sometimes it takes an outsider to remind us of things we already know but have lost sight of. I wasn't saying you didn't know about relationships, I was trying to respond to a comment you made by reminding what a relationship is all about.

[Double J]

ShySoul,

 

I recently bought a book off of Amazon called "Understanding Women: The Definitive Guide to Meeting, Dating and Dumping, if Necessary" by Romy Miller. Keep in mind that this book is written by a WOMAN herself, so what I say in this post is derived from what I've read from the book thus far. Another thing - every single person gave this book 5 stars on Amazon so maybe you should check it out - it's written in a simple, straight-to-the-point style that readers can identify with.

 

What sticks out is how she describes the type of man that the majority of women can't help but fall for. She describes men being of three general types: (1) The Confident Man, (2) The Bad Boy, (3) The Smart Guy. She says that number 1 is the most important one, but if a guy can possess all three and use each sparingly, he should have girls wanting him. Isn't that what I have been saying in a way?

 

Another one liner that reminded me of you and this thread when I read it right away: "Women love to be teased, so don't hold back from doing it." Sound familiar? If a woman herself is saying this, it's obvious that your shyness has ingrained this negative perception of teasing women in your mind. Another one - "Women love a challenge."

 

I'm not saying to believe or practice everything this lady says. It's your life - it's up to you. But you have to at least acknowledge the possibility that perhaps these things really do work, and not be so narrow-minded about it. People usually claim not to like doing certain things when in reality it's all because the person has never tried or is afraid to venture into that uncharted territory. Example - A few of my friends say they don't like bowling.. and when I asked them why, I found out most have never even played it! It's a defense mechanism called rationalization - meaning that you "talk your way out" of things by giving yourself excuses, and it's usually out of fear.

 

It was implicit in your last post that you don't want to deal with the dating world, and you just want to meet someone unexpectedly and spend the rest of your life with the person. In my opinion, I think here you're using rationalization again. Your excuse for not trying to date around and find the right partner for you that way is by saying that you'll just bump into that person and it'll go naturally from there. It seems it's your "cop-out" excuse, and that in itself shows a little lack of confidence. If you think about it, what's so bad about dating? You're going out with the person and doing something fun with her to see if she's your type, or if you should weed her out and move on. To me, the reason you don't want to deal with this stuff is because you lack the drive and confidence to get out there and do it. If it saves you from having the guts to ask a girl out, why not right?

 

News Flash - Most girls actually LIKE dating first. They like dating a guy first to see if he is really for her. You're not going to find many (if any) girls that will jump into a relationship in 2 days - it just doesn't work like that. If you're the type of [nice] guy that feels bad about trying out different prospects at the same time, then it's an even harder road towards finding the right girl. The more you've got to work with, the more likely you are to end up with what you're truly looking for in the end.

 

I agree with you that one shouldn't let the thought of wanting a relationship have any bearing on your day-to-day decisions. Like i've told you before, I don't think of it as: I want to meet girls today so that maybe I get a relationship out of one of them. I think of it as: I want to meet girls today so maybe i'll just get to know a new, cool person.

 

You said:

"The more beautiful a girl is, the more likely she is to have guy after guy hitting on her. Which is where just being friends is better. She probably gets plenty of both people, those playing games and those showering her with compliments. So don't be either. Be yourself. Be a friend and be nice. "

 

So you mean that if a girl is physically beautiful, you immediately put her on your "Out of my league" list and think you're only capable of making a friendship out of it? See, I don't think that's the right mindset to have. Another thing Miller says in the book I bought as one of the basic rules of women:

- "Not all women are unapproachable and that includes very beautiful women. Sometimes they aren't approached because of their beauty. Many men are afraid of rejection and don't approach them. So they appreciate what little attention they get."

 

ShySoul, I recommend you buy this book. Try not base your thinking solely on what YOU have branded in your mind as far as what makes women tick. Do some research to see what women really want - what better source than a book that is actually written by one of that gender?

 

My opinion is that you're very stuck in that comfort zone, and you're scared to come out of it. Ever hear the phrase "Do whatever works"? How would you be willing to know what really works if you're reluctant to try different alternatives? But you seem content on waiting.. and if that's what you want to do, no matter how long it takes, then good luck to you.

 

One more thing.. do you love yourself 100%? Then why don't you think that you can be the prize? Why don't you think that a woman would be super lucky to have you? If you have a lot to offer, you should feel like you're the prize. But you can only feel like the prize by exposing yourself out in the world, and that world is usually in that of dating. I think guys that don't do anything at all to put themselves in positions to meet more girls (whether it be to get a date, get laid, or a relationship) don't really deserve what they're looking for. Think about it - who would deserve a promotion more - someone who goes the extra mile to have success, or someone who just adopts a "go with the flow" attitude? Think about it.

[spatzcolumbo]

Shysoul,

 

I just believe that in the end you'll see that your way doesn't get you where you want to be and mines does. You've agreed that at your age most people are just out to have fun. But as they grew older they begin to see that it isn't as much fun as it once was. Your way leads to "fun times," my way leads to forever. I've always thought differently than others my age so maybe I'm just ahead of the "game" so to speak. I'm skipping the pleminaries of dating around and looking to go stright to the big game, a real relationship that hopefully lasts a lifetime. I don't find these games fun, the real fun will be being with that one girl that I've waited for. Your priorties will change and then you'll probably get what I'm saying.

 

My way does get me to where i want to be. i am happy. That is whee i want to be. You say that as people grow older they see that having fun isn't that much fun!!! I'd rather be having fun the way i am than growing too old too fast. I think i am older than you, so age really has nothing to do with it.

 

You say my priorities will change. Why do you feel you can make such assumptions?? My priorities HAVE changed. I was in the relationship that i wanted to last for ever. I was the total absolute nice guy. i did nothing wrong in the relationship, and it went bad. Do i regret it? Not at all. I have grown SO much from it, and one day you will have the same experience. In my humble opinion, you will meet someone, and it will not last. This is my opinion. The first person you date / have a relationship with will NOT be the person you spend forever with. You will find that YOUR priorities may well change. The thing is that you just don't know what will happen in the future.

 

For instance i once talked to a few people about the subject of cheating on a partner. I never have, and i'd love to think i never will. But the thing is, even with all the best intentions in the world, you just don't know what the future holds. You could be with someone who you think is perfect for you, but then you might meet some random woman on some random Tuesday in 15 years time, and things could just be instant. You just do not know.

 

In my opinion, it is Naieve to think that you will end up spending forever with the first person you meet.

 

Again, I'm not claiming you are doing something wrong. But there is right and wrong. You might not have done anything wrong know, but we've all done wrong things before.

 

There is not right or wrong. You're life plan is not right or wrong, just as mine is not right or wrong. Saying i have not done anything wrong now, but that we have all done wrong things before...could you please explain to me the point you are trying to make in this comment?

 

Additionally, can i suggest to you that whilst you may well have seen a lot in terms of bad relationships from an outsiders point of view, you still do not know how it feels until you have actually been there personally, and been the person involved. By this i mean one of the 2 people who are directly involved in a romantic relationship. I have seen my own share of problems from a third person perspective, but this is totally different from the feelings generated when you are in the relationship yourself.

 

I know more about relationships you would think. And sometimes it takes an outsider to remind us of things we already know but have lost sight of.

 

And i know a lot more about relationships than you seem to think. Listen to your own advice, and then turn it on its head. You say that sometimes outsiders remind us of things we already knew but have lost sight of. Well maybe you should also take the time to listen to the views of someone who has actually been 100% in love, and been in it for the long term, only to have that taken away. Whether you wish to agree with this or not, the fact is you have NOT been in that situation, and thereforeeee there is NO way you can know how it feels. Maybe you should open your mind a little to the thoughts and comments of those who HAVE been there, and thereforeeee maybe have a slightly different vantage point to the one that you hold.

 

What strikes me as the difference in our tones, is that having argued my point, and realised that it is just my opinion, i am quite willing to accept that you will do things in your own way, and you will live by the results of your own actions. On the other hand, you do not seem at all willing to accept that i will live by my own rules, and will do things how i see fit. Telling me that this is the wrong way, and that i will eventually see the error of my ways is both a narrow minded and naieve thing to do.

 

You have to understand that what is right for you is not right for the next person.

 

----edit-----

 

I have also just read Double J's post, having not read it before posting my reply to Shysoul.

 

I'm not saying to believe or practice everything this lady says. It's your life - it's up to you. But you have to at least acknowledge the possibility that perhaps these things really do work, and not be so narrow-minded about it. People usually claim not to like doing certain things when in reality it's all because the person has never tried or is afraid to venture into that uncharted territory. Example - A few of my friends say they don't like bowling.. and when I asked them why, I found out most have never even played it! It's a defense mechanism called rationalization - meaning that you "talk your way out" of things by giving yourself excuses, and it's usually out of fear.

 

It is amazing that without reading it, i have said almost exactly the same thing...using the same wording. Wording such as 'Narrow-minded'. Once again, just to point out the differences between myself and you Shysoul...i am posting this having been on both sides of the wall. I have been the stereotypical 'nice guy' for years, and got next to nowhere. I have then changed slightly just through maturing somewhat, and been in an 18 month relationship that was the happiest time of my life. I have then gone through 6 months of the unhappiest time of my life, and come out the other side as a slightly edgier, slightly more intriguing 'nice guy'. you on the other hand have only ever known how to be the steretypical 'nice guy'. All i am trying to say is not to disregard the other possibilities that lay before you (the edgier, slightly more risky side of the nice guy), and don't be scared of change.

[DropToZero]

Yet I still met someone wonderful who I would have liked to go out with. I didn?t because I let my fears and nerves get the better of me, but that?s not the issue.

-Shysoul

 

Except...that IS the issue...and one of the many reasons I'm getting all this back up now it seems hah. You know girls...so do I, I have friends that are girls, and plenty more since I hit college. But as soon as you start thinking of them as a possible attraction....you get nervous. THAT IS your issue....b/c even I am still having a problem ridding myself of this fear. You start thinking beyond friends, and then your fears of rejection and screwing up set in. ...Then you don't do anything(as in talking to her..or flirting)...which is the worst possible thing you can do.

 

I'm not going to go into a huge story, these two other posters seem to be trying to take over our arguments of points....even tho I still would like to see someone else arguing Shysoul's points....I'm interested in what everyone is thinking about this post...b/c its huge now.

 

I just have a short story of support in my own opinions...b/c its recently happened. Shy knows about this girl, b/c he posted in the 'red or yellow?' post I had.... There is something I had changed about myself in a sense that I could more easily communicate with girls, i.e. flirting. I was never any good at it...and its just a game...I finally had gotten that thru my head. I think I may have posted this somewhere else...but with one of the girls I was constantly flirting with...I had no initial attraction to when I first met...yet I still kept flirting. The giving of the rose went over all too well tho Shy...hah, umm....I had to leave it for her b/c she wasn't there when I came to her dorm. I talked to her like 2 days later, and she couldn't have been happier with that surprise. Now here's where I'm going to stop this really quick, and explain....2 years ago, this never would have happened, I would have been too afraid of what she thought of me to flirt or mess with her(meaning I kinda bust on her...make fun of her)....I would have screwed it up 'being her friend' first, and nothing else but just innocent talking. You don't seem to understand STILL Shy, that attraction is something that I NEVER knew how to create...and now its gold....no girl will all of a sudden fall for you just b/c you are being nice to her. I can't explain it any more clearly..except with my continuation of this 'short' story hehe.

 

....Let's just say...the day I talked to her about the rose I had surprised her with...she wanted me to come to her dorm really badly, and she gave me her number w/o my even asking. I told her I'd had been too tired after work, but she still insisted that I call after work....now I didn't call, and yea I was too tired. So then that nite I was on the net, just talking on AIM, and she was being 'playfully' mad that I could stay up late and not be tired, yet I was too tired to come and watch a movie in her room with her.....needless to say...I'm probably going to go over tonite b/c she still wants me to come over. 2 years ago, this never would have happened to me.

 

My only problem is that the 'shy' part of me still seems to lurk below....b/c the day...THE day that I went to give her the rose....the moment I knocked on her door to give it to her(even tho she wasn't there)....my HEART frickin dropped to my stomach, and I started breathing really hard....I was somewhat glad she wasn't there....b/c I became nervous...for no reason. Problem is....with this girl that I had no intentions of being more than friends with....now I think I've convinced myself I like her...and now I'm afraid as to what will happen when I do go over there....its almost so bad I don't know if I want to go to watch a movie with her(isn't that MESSED UP????)...In my head I feel like an idiot for even thinking about not going over, but in the back of my head there's still some fear.....

 

So what if it was long....lol....I just had to prove that I still am a little unconfident even tho I talk about how much more easy its become to talk....its just hard to deny.

[al7]

I know some girls who did not pursue me until they knew I was involved in a relationship.

 

I can attest to acting a little jerky to get some girls and it worked like a charm, but it all depends on the "type" of girl you want, and how far you want to take it.

 

The experience I had with my first girlfriend made me change how I acted to a certain degree because I was dumped for not being enough of a challenge.

 

I don't put on an act around women, but I do know how to manipulate them to get what I want.

 

LOL, even though it doesn't always work out the way I want, I do know that you should pay more attention to the way they act then what the say, because it can change without any warning.

 

Could you elaborate on how being jerky attracts more girls?

I wonder what did you do....

[al7]

1. It is very true.

 

2. What do you mean - outperform.. in what sense?

 

3. Here it IS! Being a jerk or behave like one would give you more dates, and more relationships.. of mostly likely poor quality.

But the key is that nice guys are not getting ANY. So they would be happy to get any kind of girls\dates a jerks do.

Simple?

[DropToZero]

al7...read thru the many pages of this forum...I know all these stories are looong ....but they explain what he and I are trying to say in some ways. By the way...the girl that I wasn't sure If I wanted to go watch a movie with...I went, and had a great time...and now we're dating.....so I'm glad I went.

 

Shy....see....I'm not a jerk...I'm still nice, and I got the girl....now I'm just curious what to do now lol....5 years from now...I'd have ended up being her 'friend'...and nothing more....

[ShySoul]

Everyone,

 

I've been busy the last few days so I haven't been able to respond. But I've got stuff to say and I'll post later. Oh, and part of what's kept me busy is hanging out with a girl who is impressed by how nice and honest I am, the idea that I don't play games. I'm not saying that anything is going to happen, but being a nice guy does work.

[DropToZero]

Glad to know, good luck Shy...I'm done arguing this...its too long already hah...but yea, hope it works out the way you want it to.

 

I mean...I'll post occasionally if anyone else has stuff to add...but I've already got what I wanted from what I've learned lately....just be yourself...maybe add a little humor lol...but have fun overall.

[ShySoul]

al7,

 

The point is that jerks may seem to get more girls, but you can't measure success by the number of dates someone gets. A jerk may get a hundred dates over the years, but in the end his attitude and games will lead him with zero lasting relationships. The nice guy may only get a couple dates, but they are much more likely to last and grow into forever. Success in dating is measured by whether or not the date leads into something that lasts awhile. Jerks don't usually experience that success while the nice guys do.

 

Nice guys are obviously getting dates, otherwise there wouldn't be so many girls settling down with them. It just appears hard and impossible, but it happens all the time. It's easy to be discouraged, but have patience and it will happen.

[ShySoul]

LtAwesome,

 

Now your going to leave when I think I've really started understanding you. Your last couple posts have given me more insight into where you're coming from, and you seem to be more polite about it then anyone else. I'll first say that what I want out of this friendship with this girl is simply that, friendship. Something more would be nice, but I'm not looking for it. Being nice, honest, no games, shy, myself, and not making anykind of move has got me this far. Why push anything and risk ruining it all?

 

My problem has never been that I can't talk to girls, even girls I like. If anything I've gotten along better with females than I ever have with males. The only problem has come from not being able to admit my whole feelings for someone. And oddly, it isn't so much rejection that is terrifying, its acceptance. Rejection isn't so bad after awhile. You actually get used to it. But it's the thought of having everything that you've always dreamed about that can be daunting. You get used to the lonliness and even though you want out, the fear of the unknown keeps you from going further.

 

I think your story demonstrates what I'm getting at. Flirting isn't so much a game as its about confidence. You said that two years ago you would have been too afraid of what she thought of you. That fear is what held you back, not the fact that you were nice or didn't tease or flirt. You eventually realized that even if a girl doesn't feel the same way about you that you do about her, it's not the end of the world. You gained more confidence in yourself and that is what has you. I've always said confidence is important. But you can still be nice, not tease, and have confidence.

 

Attraction isn't something that you create, it's something that happens naturally over the course of time. If two people get along, share similar interest, and spend time with each other, then attraction may develop. I've never said a girl will suddenly fall for you, quite the opposite. Those feelings are something that grows over time. Being nice isn't the whole thing, but it's part of it. Personality, similar interests, stages in our lives... they all play a role to. But in the end, a girl will want someone she can trust and that's where the nice guy has the advantage. The innocent talking is what will help you out, it shows that you are there for her and willing to listen. That's not to say be boring. I'm all for joking around. But you can joke around without making fun of people or "busting on them."

 

About that "shy" part of you still being there, that's a good thing. You are a naturally shy person and there is nothing wrong with that. Some people get nervous around the opposite sex. Your worried about messing up. Guess what, everyone feels like that! It's not just the shy people. Some people may appear calm and collected, but they are probably just as nervous as you on the inside. Sometimes these people will try to ignore that side of them so much that they go overboard on the confidence/arrogance and they end up blowing things as well. That's where jerks fail. They really have less confidence than most people think and are trying to appear as if they do. So they act tough and macho only to find they don't know what they are doing and they end up hurting people, ruining their chances. On the other hand, a shy person would not dream of saying anything that could be offensive or hurtful. Instead of viewing your shyness as a curse, consider it a blessing.

 

The one thing that holds back the shy/nice guys is themselves. It has nothing to do with games or flirting. The shy/nice guys are really the ones that girls like best. The problem is that these guys don't believe it because they hear so much about how nice guys finish last, how jerks get the girls. That combined with a lack of self-confidence causes them to freeze up around girls. But if they just start believing in themselves more, they'll see that they are the ones that girls ultimately go for.

[al7]

al7,

 

The point is that jerks may seem to get more girls, but you can't measure success by the number of dates someone gets. A jerk may get a hundred dates over the years, but in the end his attitude and games will lead him with zero lasting relationships. The nice guy may only get a couple dates, but they are much more likely to last and grow into forever. Success in dating is measured by whether or not the date leads into something that lasts awhile. Jerks don't usually experience that success while the nice guys do.

 

Nice guys are obviously getting dates, otherwise there wouldn't be so many girls settling down with them. It just appears hard and impossible, but it happens all the time. It's easy to be discouraged, but have patience and it will happen.

 

ShySoul,

Right success is a relative term. I'll show you.

Imagine there are two guys, all we know they are abut same age, handsoomeness etc and both are single.

Now there are several male journalists who decided to conduct interview with them in order to figure out how successful with women they are.

They ask:

Are you currently dating somone? NG: No.. JK: yes, sure

In past 6 month how many dates have you had? NG: Emmm...1. JK:50

Do you think women are attracted you? NG: It is hard to get a date, so I think.. it is not the case. JK: Since I have so many dates.. sure they love me! I seduce them!

What is longest relationship you ever had? NG: 2 yrs, JK: You mean how long I can maintain my stamina in bed?

 

Now, obviously male journalists would conclude NG is a loser with women, and JK is a pro.

 

Lets change it to female journalists. Same questions. They naturally think: Oh.. JK is such a player... and NC is unattractive (we see women reject him) but a family oriented guy. Both are not great, but women hate players and they'd conclude NG is better than JK solely cuz he is not a player.

 

You see now how "success" works in reality? Men think of it as how mny dates you can have. Women think.. well somehow differently.

 

What you are saying is surely influenced by women's ideas\goals: to have a family with 5 kids. Sure, if it is you right away goal, thats fine. But I am sure for most guys it is naturally that the goal is to get dates in order to select someone to spend his life with. Not to have 5 kids or get married.

 

You missed that stage: selection, you go right to the next goal. But if you miss this improtant selection step, how would you reach the ultimate goal?

Again, success is a very relation notion. Even in different stges it changes its definition.

[Shidoshi]

I know this wasn't meant for me Shysoul, but I had to respond because its text-book nice/shy guy syndrome. Just my 2 cents.

I'll first say that what I want out of this friendship with this girl is simply that, friendship.

Then you say:

Something more would be nice, but I'm not looking for it.

If you were currently involved in a relationship I would say that its remotely possible you could feel this way, and not really 100%. The fact is though, that you aren't, and you KNOW you want to be more than friends. Nothing wrong with that, but come on bro, don't fool yourself.

Being nice, honest, no games, shy, myself, and not making anykind of move has got me this far. Why push anything and risk ruining it all?

I have no idea what this girl is like so maybe you're doing good so far, but remember, if she is a great catch, you're time is going to run out if you don't take some initiative. How soon? Again I have no idea, but generally, if the girl is relatively attractive you won't have a whole lot of time because the shy thing will take its toll sooner or later (except if she's one of those rare breeds that takes most of the initiative, but they're usually the ones you aren't that interested in).

My problem has never been that I can't talk to girls, even girls I like. If anything I've gotten along better with females than I ever have with males.

This is usually indicative of the type of guys girls have around as friends, but things never really progress beyond that.

The only problem has come from not being able to admit my whole feelings for someone.

To yourself, or to the person you have feelings for?

And oddly, it isn't so much rejection that is terrifying, its acceptance. Rejection isn't so bad after awhile.

I really don't see the difference between being rejected, and not being accepted. I would imagine they both feel the same.

But it's the thought of having everything that you've always dreamed about that can be daunting. You get used to the lonliness and even though you want out, the fear of the unknown keeps you from going further.

I can understand that.

But you can still be nice, not tease, and have confidence.

Hmm...possible maybe, but it usually leads to you being considered a bore.

Attraction isn't something that you create, it's something that happens naturally over the course of time. If two people get along, share similar interest, and spend time with each other, then attraction may develop.

I agree for the most part.

Being nice isn't the whole thing, but it's part of it. Personality, similar interests, stages in our lives... they all play a role to.

Agreed.

The innocent talking is what will help you out, it shows that you are there for her and willing to listen. That's not to say be boring. I'm all for joking around. But you can joke around without making fun of people or "busting on them."

You see theres a line you draw when you "bust on someone." Some people have a thick skin about it, and some don't. We are human beings, being made fun of is not all bad, especially when its done tastefully. I can remember being made fun of and having it hurt, and I can remember it making me laugh my a** off. You have to know how, when, and to what degree.

Instead of viewing your shyness as a curse, consider it a blessing.

This may sound nice, but it really doesn't help. Most people who post here that are shy are having problems in their lives because of it. Being shy IS the problem.

The one thing that holds back the shy/nice guys is themselves.

Agreed.

It has nothing to do with games or flirting. The shy/nice guys are really the ones that girls like best.

LOL! I soooo wish this were true.

The problem is that these guys don't believe it because they hear so much about how nice guys finish last, how jerks get the girls.

Not really, its because they SEE IT.

But if they just start believing in themselves more, they'll see that they are the ones that girls ultimately go for.

I agree with believing in yourself, definitely.

[spatzcolumbo]

But you can still be nice, not tease, and have confidence.

 

What is wrong with teasing? As long as it is done in the right way, it can actually be far more enjoyable for both people than not teasing!! I'm not saying that you should tease EVERYONE, but some people it is a LOT of fun!!

 

You just have to know how to do it.

[DropToZero]

I'll first say that what I want out of this friendship with this girl is simply that, friendship. Something more would be nice, but I'm not looking for it. Being nice, honest, no games, shy, myself, and not making anykind of move has got me this far. Why push anything and risk ruining it all?

--Shysoul

 

I think someone already pointed this out...but Ill post and try and see what's going on. Why did you say all you wanted is friendship..and nothing else?...and then say "Something more would be nice, but you're not looking for it" Yeah...all of this has gotten you 'this' far....but it won't get you anywhere else. If you want a relationship with this girl AT ALL besides just being good friends....you will have to push it....what are you talking about ruining it all? What did you have in the first place....?....You have a friendship....great...but as soon....

AS SOON as you try and get her out on a date....and you may, she will soon begin to learn that you're going toooo slow. Unless she is utterly in love with you...she will get bored and move on...stop returning calls....etc. Okay, I know not EVERY girl is the same....but at the beginning of my college quarter, first day of class, I met this girl...REALLY really nice girl...now I didn't fall for her, but I did like her. Yet I did exactly what YOU are doing right now...being nice...little shy...yet still talking and seeming to have a good time. Near the end of that quarter...soo...about 9 weeks later, I asked for her number, and she gave it to me...actually it kinda made my day. So x-mas break came....I called her, and got pretty much blown off on the phone the first call. I called her again like a week later, and she didn't answer or return. Next quarter began, and I'd seen her around....but neither of us ever came to say hi....pretty much...I lost what could have been a good friend. Now I'm still trying to run into her sometime so I can explain what had happened...but right now...its been like 8 weeks into winter quarter and I haven't seen her once. Keep being nice ONLY...and you'll get a different version of my story for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

I think your story demonstrates what I'm getting at. Flirting isn't so much a game as its about confidence. You said that two years ago you would have been too afraid of what she thought of you. That fear is what held you back, not the fact that you were nice or didn't tease or flirt. You eventually realized that even if a girl doesn't feel the same way about you that you do about her, it's not the end of the world. You gained more confidence in yourself and that is what has you. I've always said confidence is important. But you can still be nice, not tease, and have confidence.

--Shysoul

 

Flirting IS a game...nothing more...nothing less. It deals with teasing, laughing, and a little confidence. It incorporates touching, and that IS how attraction is created. Currently...this is how I am dating the girl I am now.

Two years ago...I was being nice, yea, that only....didn't really know how to flirt, and I'm still testing the waters now. I never could accept that she didn't like me, that's what drove me nuts in HS. I became crazy about this girl, to the point that one day a friend showed me an online journal she had...not too long after I had kinda broken down(and I didnt lay out feelings or anything, I just screwed it up somehow, and I havent talked to her in a long time)...he showed me this journal tho...and I can pretty much quote "God! Why do I keep getting involved with all these jerks!...I can't help it, I'm just not attracted to the nice guys...." Seeing this....set me right....and yes, its right from her journal. Sure you can say....'her loss'...b/c I did say that...pff but who cared, I was just kidding myself...I still think I'd like her to this day if I saw her.

 

 

 

 

Attraction isn't something that you create, it's something that happens naturally over the course of time. If two people get along, share similar interest, and spend time with each other, then attraction may develop.

 

Totally disagree....okay I think this could be a little plagiarism from some online email I get...but I'm gonna put it up anyways

Women don't CHOOSE at all who they are attracted

to.

 

""""ATTRACTION ISN'T A CHOICE.

 

Attraction is something that happens virtually

on its own... WITHOUT ANY CONSCIOUS DECISION AT ALL.

Ask a woman why she's attracted to a certain guy,

and she'll answer "Oh, he's such a sweetheart" or

"He's really a great guy" or whatever.

 

I personally believe that if you could get a woman

to stop and think about it for a minute, the REAL

answer would be something like "I have no frickin'

idea whatsoever. I just feel an emotion that makes

me crave being with him, and then I justify it with

my mind so I can EXPLAIN it to myself and everyone

else so I don't sound crazy."

 

Whoa.

 

That's heavy."""""

 

This is from one of David D. 's emails...for some sort of recognition.

 

Attraction 'could' grow over time...or as you say...'may' in your quote...but you don't really want that..do you? The girl I've dated ...only twice now....I've MET her...MET Her only 4 times, and we hung out for a few hours each time. Did I ever get into any deep meaningful conversations.....nope....Just flirted... Ya know what....in a matter of 4 times meeting her...I'd accomplished something that I couldn't do in months of time with the girl in HS.

 

I don't have time, cuz Im going to go somewhere now...this post could be more explained though. The ONE and only problem I have with your attitude Shysoul....is WAITING....what are YOU WAITING for...? You only live once....you're only going to be young once....why would you want to wait 3 months before trying to spring your feelings on this girl, when you could create a little spark now? Just tell me why....anyone...why would you want to keep putting off things that you KNOW in your mind you really want to happen. You know you'd really like a great relationship with this girl you met, but you seem so intent on waiting for something that may never happen. I'm a firm believer of this...saying...."Nothing is going to happen, unless you make it happen"....are you like that? Some girl's not just going to randomly fall for you...you're not going to somehow land that 6 figure salary job....work...learn....and stop waiting.

[ShySoul]

Ok, I'm back. Between school, a computer that seems to want to drive me crazy, and talking to that girl (more on that in a minute), I've been out of commission for awhile. But thinks are looking good for me and I owe it in part to my philosophy.

 

I guess I forgot to mention just how far I've gotten. Let's see: she was the one who first messeged me. She was the one who messaged me the next night to keep talking. She was the one who asked if I wanted to talk on the phone. She was the one who suggested we hang out in person. She has been the one complimenting me on how much I understand what love truly is, even though I've never had a girlfriend. Last Sunday we were suppose to meet but she had to cancel as things came up at the last minute. But later that evening she called me and asked if I was still interested in meeting up with her that night. She was so interested in meeting me that she called when she didn't have to and came out to the city at night just to hang out with me. We both had a great time and have agreed to hang out again soon. Plus, she's been saying that she needs to take me to a concert, which I find out her favorite singer is coming in June and we've agreed to go together. I may not have much experience in this, but I think I'm doing pretty well.

 

Now, I'm taking it slow because really we haven't known each other long. It's been maybe a month and a half, we've meet in person once, and we've talked on the phone a handful of times. I might think that there's something there, but there's no point in rushing it. If we are making plans for June and saying that we'll be friends for a long time to come, I don't see things falling apart anytime soon. Your also assuming that if I do get a date with her then I won't know what to do, that I'll move to slow. Not true. I've had 22 years to plan out how I would handle a relationship and she seems like the person who would appreciate everthing I have to offer. She's done her share of initiating contact and I would do my share as well. Remember, slow and steady won the race and only fools rush in.

 

I agree that I'll have to say something, but who say's I wasn't planning on it? Maybe the moment needs to be right. Maybe I need one little sign to let me know its time. Maybe I think I need to be around her in person more than one time for a couple of hours to be sure. I said that I wasn't looking for more than friendship because thats not my goal. I wasn't going to lie and say that the though had never crossed my mind, so I said it would be nice. Yes, I would like to be in a relationship, I've never denied that. But I've realized that it's not something that can be forced. What if I had said I wanted a relationship from the start and then found out that she had never been interested? That would be devastating. But by not expecting anything I can let things happen naturally and won't be as hurt if things don't work out. All I've expected is friendship, if that, and anything more is a pleasant surprise.

 

About this girl, your going on what ONE girl wrote in HIGH SCHOOL on an online journal. First of all, that's just one girl whose opinions don't necessarily reflect the majority of girls. Second, it was in high school where most people have no idea what they are doing and are still trying to sort out there feelings and emotions. Maybe at the time she found the bad boy thing exciting, but it wears off quickly as people mature. Third, it sounds to me like even in that journal she didn't like the fact that she went for the jerks. She wanted to change that about herself and by now she probably has. Where you went wrong is in the way you got so attached to this girl that you couldn't get over her. So you saw what she wrote, figured thats what you needed to be like to attract girls like her, and changed your way of thinking. But she has probably changed as well and would probably prefer the guy you used to be.

 

Nope, attraction grows. This girl I'm talking to now, we've had plenty of deep conversations and its only now that I'm even getting an inkling that there might be something there. Every other girl I've been attracted to, it's come after I've got to know them and see something good in there personality that matches mines. Maybe we don't decide who we are attracted to, but we can at least decide what qualities we find attractive. I value intelliengence, honesty, and a caring heart. If I see those things then I'll begin to find someone attractive. I don't just find random people attractive, never have and never will. In fact, just yesterday we were on the phone and she was telling a story about her going out of her way to help an elderly person or stories of her doing volunteer work. That made me stop and see just how much she cares about others, and in seeing that sense of responsibility and desire to help people it made her more attractive in my book. It happened naturally because we have things in common, not because we tried to make it happen.

 

I wait because I know that the more you try to make something happen, the less likely it is to happen or the worse things turn out. I've waited 22 years for a relationship, what's a few months? I know that if I wait for the right person then all the waiting will be worth it because I'll have found what I've always dreamed of. I'm not saying she's fallen for me, but she seems to think I'm a pretty cool guy. And I never had to create any kind of spark, it just happened. Again, I know to say something when the time is right, I'm not stupid. But why push it and risk the chance of her feeling like I'm pressuring her. We've both agreed that you need to spend time together before anything serious can happen, and we haven't spent enough time together to make that happen. We also both agree that the best relationships happen after you've been friends with someone for awhile and then one day realize you like each other. She mentioned two relationships she had in the past, one that she rushed into and the other that happened after being friends with a guy for years. The one that she rushed into didn't last, wasn't good, and they don't speak anymore. The one from friendship lasted a long time, was good, and they still remain friends today. I'd rather fit into the second category.

[Shidoshi]

Not really knocking your technique, but you make things sound so simple and innocent when they really aren't (atleast the "game" might seem so on the surface). If what your doing is getting you somewhere then I say the more power to you. But people who hook up after years of friendship weren't single (as in no relations of any kind) the whole time either. In the mean time how are your emotional and sexual needs being met if you aren't in a relationship? (this is more of a statement, not really asking you unless you would like to answer)

 

Not saying you should rush anything, but being a man with certain instinctual desires that are not currently being met has to be causing stress of some kind, you may not be consciously aware of it, but its there. I do understand your position, but it just seems like every other person who is terrified of being rejected. I think you will find out though as you become more experienced, that rejection in some form when dating is almost impossible to avoid unless you continue taking the "safe" route, which usually isn't very satisfying.

[Caldus]

Yeah rejection will rear its ugly head many times in your life. Why try to avoid it right?

 

I used to have severe anxiety problems and still have a little anxiety these days but at least I'm able to actually meet people and have conversations with a girl now. But I still do admit that I avoid situations just so that I eliminate the possibility of being rejected. But there really is no logic as to why I do that. You just have to swallow your pride, let it go, and just seize the moment. Risks have to be taken.

[al7]

...being a man with certain instinctual desires that are not currently being met has to be causing stress of some kind, you may not be consciously aware of it, but its there.

 

Sometimes you not only fear rejection, but that fears grow more into a frustration: what the poin tof trying? It is again lots of work, tons of frustration and as usually nothing in return. So one of the solution is just to "hide", not doing anything.. scrared of being frustrated again and again.

[ShySoul]

The thing you guys aren't seeing is that I'm not afraid of rejection, or at least no more than your average person. I may not have faced rejection from a girl yet, but in many other ways rejection has become common for me. I think differently than most, as is pretty clear from this thread. Alot of my ideas get dismissed because people don't see where I'm coming from. That's rejection. I've been getting turned down during my job searc lately. Again, rejection. I've had to deal with family issues where nothing seems to go right and no one listens to me... rejection. Rejection is nothing new to me, I can handle it. If anything, I've been rejecting myself for years now. Five years ago you would have been right. I would have been to scared of what a girl thought of me to say anything. So I rejected the opportunity before I even had a chance. But I've grown alot in those five years. I'm not afraid of rejection. Yet I still understand that you can't just go for anything, that would be foolish and reckless. It's about balance and moderation. I'll know when the time is right and I will take a chance. But I'm not going to go out and seek it. Life presents all kinds of opportunites on its own without you having to make them. It's seizing those moments that I've learned to do.

 

al7, I agree that fear can lead to frustration. As Yoda said, "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hurt. Hurt leads to suffering." One way to deal with it is to hide. But that's not what I'm doing. I'm not hiding from a relationship, I am waiting for the right person and right time to come along. It could be tomorrow or it could be in five years. I don't know and I'm not going to let it phase me or get to me. I'm going to embrace my life and make the best out of it. I'm going to focus on being me and acheiving my dreams and goals, outside of a relationship. Then when that relationship does happen, I'll be in a better position to deal with it. I'll have the confidence, the financial security, and the happiness of knowing that the romance I've longed for has finally arrived. Good things come to those who wait.

 

Caldus, its not like I have anxiety about talking to girls. With only three notable exceptions, I've always gotten along better with girls. I find that they are generally smarter and more mature than guys, and that makes them more appealing to talk to. It's not that I'm afraid of being rejected by them. The reason that no relationship has started is because it is rare for me to find someone with whom I really have alot in common and can connect with on that kind of level. The next time that it happens, I'll take the risk. It could be the girl I've been talking to. But we haven't been around each other enough for me to get that feeling. I'm not just going to go for something out of the blue, I want to make sure how I feel before I do so. Theres nothing wrong with wanting to be sure.

 

Shidoshi, I make it sound simple because it is. Most things in life are not as complicated as people make them out to be, including dating and relationships. People just get it in there heads that it has to be hard and they subconsciously make it hard. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. If you think its hard, it will be hard. Seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing. Once you believe that things are incredibly simple and not put so much pressure on things, you'll see how much easier life is.

 

About those instinctual desires, call me crazy but I understand what my true desires are. You say I have emotional and sexual needs. True. But I don't need to be in a relationship to satisfy them. It's a matter of how you look at those needs. My emotional needs are being satisfied by the fact that I have taken the time to fully understand who I am and have focused on being the best person I can be. You have to fully love yourself before you can fully love another. I also have someone who I can turn to for support if I am feeling down. It's a friendship that will last forever. As for those sexual needs, again, how do you look at those needs? To me, it isn't so much sexual needs, as a desire to be loved and fully understood for who I am. Sex is just a means of expressing that connection. It is a bodily method that is based on emotional and spirtual needs. Finding that one person with whom you completely connect and love doesn't happen everyday. That is what I am looking for, love. When I find it, or more accurately when it finds me, then I will have satisfied that desire. Until then, the longing will always exist. It is pointless to seek out something just to try and fill that desire when doing so will almost certainly not quench the desire. When that love does happen, all of my so called needs while be met in a way that blows any other relationship away. I'm looking for the real deal, not just something to pass the time. I'll know when that is.