She needs space. Is it over?

[lonelyalone]

I dated the most wonderful woman for 5 years, lived together in her place for 4 years. We decided to get married and have children about 2 years in, just needed my divorce to be finalized...and my ex wife clung on and on and wrangled and delayed, and it never got done, putting tremendous stress on us. Additionally, I've had a rough couple of years with a parent dying, severe stress at work, the lingering divorce, losing my job and my ex threatening to move my two young children several hours drive away, potentially ruining my relationship with them. All this, I found out later, put me into depression, probably around August last year. Anyway, as pressure mounted, I had a very strange feeling pour into me one evening after xmas for no reason, my body flooded with hurt, anger, hate, it overwhelmed me, a very odd and scary feeling. My girlfriend and I had a fight, spurred by this, our first major one, and I carried on as an angry guy, spitting hurt over 4 days, and the conversation turned to our relationship, and I said some very hurtful things, that she didn't enrich my life and we couldn't work it out. As I said these things, I so wanted to tell her she was the best thing ever to happen to me, but these hurtful words came out instead. I've again since learned this was a damn breaking, the hurt leaving, and self-destructive behavior of a depressive. It broke her heart, I've never seen her sob so much, and she was physically sick. She had once told me she had never had her heart truly broken before, so this was her first experience of this, at 35.

 

I was wretched inside, I loved this woman so much, why did I do this? I sought help fast from my doctor, got diagnosed with depression and get medical and therapist help, all within a week.

 

She obviously wouldn't let me live with her anymore, said we were over, said I needed to get help, heal myself inside. After a few days, she said she needed some space, wasn't sure how long she needed, but needed to figure things out. I poured my heart out via text, waking up from depression and realizing all the things it had done to me; nothing major, but the withdrawal from the world last year caused me to neglect her feelings, miss certain triggers about her life and the things she was pressured from, because I was withdrawn and she was propping me up so much to some extent.

 

So, 10 weeks in, I feel like I've barely seen her or communicated, compared to our normal time, 99.99% of it is gone. 2 planned meetings, 1 for the kids end of Jan, and then 1 dinner for me Feb 15th. Both went well. She has said, though, that she needed therapy to clear her head so she could make a decision. She was never clear on what that was, just something for her. She then traveled for a month. We texted a small amount, 65% me initiating it, 35% her, but she was chatty back via text. She went from saying just "Thx" religiously to my texting "I love you" over the weeks to "I love you too" and "I miss those things too". She even agreed to move up our next meeting from March 28 to March 17, and see the kids on March 21. I felt she was warming up to me. I have done much soul searching and revealed a few things that made me unhappy, things I needlessly pressurized myself with, and am letting go. I quit smoking, something she always wanted me to do, started exercising more, taking care of me physically as well as mentally.

 

Then, she started therapy on Monday. That evening, 5 days ago, she contacted me and said she still needed space, the communication we'd had over 10 weeks didn't give her space, and after talking to her therapist that day, she wants 4-6 weeks of zero contact. She said she is in a funk, she needs to sort her head out. She said we had a good loving relationship and that she still loves and misses me, and that this will be hard, but we need to do it for our future, and that she doesn't know what her funk is. She set April 26 as next contact date, at my asking, so it didn't drift.

 

So, I'm am distraught, scared, and confused still. I love this woman like no other, and do not want to lose her. I am trying hard to not contact her, and it's really difficult but I must do it, for her, because I love her so much.

 

I have no idea, though, what this "funk" in her head is that she says she doesn't know either, and that therapy is something for her, not me, but then why exclude me from her life for 4 months?? Does anyone have any experience with this, or what she could be thinking? My complete lack of understanding is what is tearing me up as much as being apart from the woman I love dearly is, 2.5 months so far and another 1.5 months to go.....at least.

[shessofly]

she needs to evaluate whether or not she wants to return to the relationship. whatever you do, do not contact her during this time. continue to work on yourself, your issues...and finalizing that divorce before you get into any more relationships with her or anyone else. the unfortunate thing is that most people do not get help/start making changes until a crisis happens (in your case a breakup)...and often by that time it is too late. right now she may be experiencing some sense of relief, but no one knows what she will decide. stay nc, keep doing all the things you need to help yourself get better.

[Willywagtail]

She has asked you for space and you need to respect that. Four to six weeks will be hard, but not as hard as what you put her through.

 

It's really difficult when you see someone behaving very differently to what they have before. It's almost like a form of betrayal, because suddenly a side never seen before appears and it can create huge doubt.

 

You blame your depression, but in the end she was on the receiving end of the tsunami you unleashed on her. I imagine she's having all sorts of doubts about you as a person, the new person she saw, and her relationship with the two of you.

 

She needs time to understand where she stands and if she can trust you again. She is probably dealing with a form of post traumatic stress because of the shock and sorrow she experienced with you.

 

Uncertainty is one of the most difficult challenges we have to face in relationships. The next 4 to 6 weeks will be filled with uncertainty on your part. Be strong, you will live through it.

[lonelyalone]

and finalizing that divorce before you get into any more relationships with her or anyone else. the unfortunate thing is that most people do not get help/start making changes until a crisis happens (in your case a breakup)

 

Thank you, and agreed - for many reasons, the ex and her lawyer have dragged the financial settlement on, mostly out of my control, but it will be finalized Tuesday. This will be hard for me, because my gf and I had been waiting for this such a long time and it meant so much, and now I cannot even tell her. Also in this period of no contact is our anniversary and my last day at work, and we work for the same company and in the same building for many years, so not getting to say goodbye will also be hard. It saddens me to realize I am somewhat selfish here, my sadness and needs conflicting with my love for her and her needs; I think this is why most people struggle and fail with no contact, the same single feeling - love - spawns the two conflicting actions: I miss her, want to be with her, want to help her in her crisis, scared that my absence will make her forget me, directly conflicting with my feelings of wanting to respect her wishes because I love her so much and she asked for this. I also worry that the time she needs to heal will damage me too much as I struggle on, and how I cope with that.

 

It did take this crisis to get me to quit smoking, which unlocked the door to exercise, and I'm sad and sorry about that, but also happy to finally have something that forced me to confront this, to wake up to the stupidity. Smokers are weird animals, so much denial! 75% say they want to quit. But most don't or can't! 32 days free now and loving the freedom from the slavery of the cigarette, 28lbs lost and feeling fit and healthy thanks to my personal trainer kicking my arse 4 times a week!

 

She has told me she is proud of what I'm doing to heal physically, said she still misses me and loves me (after 10 weeks apart), so I have to use that little sliver of hope to keep me going.

 

One other question - we work in the same building, 6 floors apart, for another 4 weeks until my job ends. Also, we live in the same 'hood 0.5 miles apart, share a gym and supermarket, etc. What should I do about that, with respect to no contact? It will be tough to avoid accidentally bumping into her, especially at work. Will that impact the no contact period if we see each other?

[Cadence44]

As someone suddenly obliterated out of a relationship due to a depressed ex who blamed me for his unhappiness in life, leave her be.

 

We'd started off similarly, with an ex and kids, and constant drama and upheaval from the ex, who sought to manipulate and take advantage of him and resented that he had found happiness. His job situation sucked, his boss took advantage of him and blamed him for everything that went wrong even though he was the most dedicated worker. His mother was controlling and manipulated him. I was the one person, other than his kids, who believed in him and treated him well. A majority of our relationship he'd express how in love he was, and he'd never felt that way toward anyone, and now he knew for the first time in his life what a loving relationship felt like. But then he relaxed into the relationship because he knew I loved him and was committed to him, which allowed him to take me for granted. Because of the pressure of everything else in his life, he developed depression and felt he needed something to change to feel happy again. His optional romantic relationship was therefore the easiest target, even though I supported him and didn't try to rip him down like everyone else in his life. One day he picked a dumb argument with me, and that was that. He ended it, stating that "because we'd argued we'd never be happy". Which was funny, because we were telling people about our plans to advance the relationship because we were so happy.

 

He blamed the optional relationship in his life for his unhappiness, because it was the only one that he could end and get away from. He was stuck with his ex for the time being, his kids stressed him out (just being typical kids), his mother was a constant intrusion, he couldn't leave his job... so I was the easiest to eliminate from his life, so he told himself all the negatives about our relationship (we had our issues, but most of them were because of the intrusions of others in his life) and built his case in his head without ever telling me anything about it, and one day it exploded.

 

I have recently re-entered life after experiencing my own crushing depression as a result of his actions, and my hair even fell out as a result of the stress I experienced. I went from happy, in love, and feeling secure, to having that ripped away from me from the one person who said he'd always protect and love me. I felt humiliated and unsafe, and wasn't sure how to trust anyone ever again.

 

To me, your ex's actions make sense. Your actions threw everything she felt certain about into uncertainty. She thought you were someone who was reliable and dependable and wouldn't hurt her, or would at least talk about issues instead of just cruelly unleashing them in an instant. Instead, she saw you spitting venomous words at her, something she never thought you were capable of. She thought your relationship was solid and was something that she could relax into. Your actions did more than have you part ways, it made her rethink everything she thought she knew about you. She probably wonders if she could ever trust you again.

 

There is a process of anger and building walls up against the person who has hurt us. I believe this is part of the reason she wants space away from you with no contact. She's trying to find her way out of the result of your actions, and she isn't sure which end is up. She isn't sure whether her anger and mistrust of you is justified or are her defense mechanisms against further pain, but then she thinks "isn't it ridiculous that I'm in a situation where I have to have defenses against the one person I used to love so much?" and that makes her angry, and on and on and on. And she wonders if it's all too much and if it's better just to start fresh with someone else, someone whom she could trust wouldn't hurt her out of the blue. These are the most likely things she's trying to sort out with time away from you.

 

Your recent words to her were pretty, but you said those to her before you said terrible things about your relationship, too, so what's to prevent you from doing it again? Why should she believe your words? Does she want to be with someone capable of ripping down all that you'd built in an instant? How could she ever relax again? Isn't one of the fundamentals of a relationship that two adults talk about problems together, so if the relationship is ending, there is at least some advance notice? That is part of the trust that the two you of you built, and you violated that trust with your actions.

 

It is so incredibly important to honor her need to be without you. Remember that part of why this is so hard for you is that you feel powerless, and then put that in perspective, because that's how you made her feel: traumatized and powerless. And at least you have some context about why this is happening; her powerlessness was much worse because she didn't even have the context that you do. Another parallel is that now she's the one cataloging all the negatives about your relationship, because she doesn't want to get hurt again.

 

Letting her live without you can work in your favor. The longer you go without contact, the more space she has to remember the good things about being with you. The more you are in contact, the more she can take those things for granted. Your words are pretty much meaningless to her for the reasons discussed above, so your best shot is to leave her alone and trust that she has good memories of you and your relationship. Try not to run into her. You want to be a ghost in her life. If you do see her, nod and smile, but don't approach her. If she approaches you, be warm and tell her it's nice to see her, and cut the conversation short. Do all this because it is best to let her miss you.

 

You have absolutely no way to know or control the outcome of this. Sit tight and take care of yourself and accept that you can't change a thing, but you can respect her wishes. She may want to work things out, or it may feel too risky for her to do that, given that you have shown her you are capable of leaving her in an instant.

 

Use this time to understand how incredibly hurtful your actions were and how damaging they were. Make sure you never do them again to any woman in your life. Remember to discuss issues with your partner if you have them to give them a chance to solve them. Do not hold things in and then just blow up one day out of the blue, because now you see it is not possible to just go back to how things were after doing something like that because of the damage that comes out of it.

 

If you continue to have issues with someone in your family of origin that you have not dealt with that is part of your inner pain, then find the courage to deal with that pain before you try to have a loving relationship with someone, because no matter how hard you try you will project that pain and anger onto them.

[lonelyalone]

It's really difficult when you see someone behaving very differently to what they have before. It's almost like a form of betrayal, because suddenly a side never seen before appears and it can create huge doubt. You blame your depression, but in the end she was on the receiving end of the tsunami you unleashed on her. I imagine she's having all sorts of doubts about you as a person, the new person she saw, and her relationship with the two of you. She needs time to understand where she stands and if she can trust you again

 

Thanks Gollum, and I agree. As I think of this from her position, we had a very loving, intimate, affectionate relationship for years, and then she sees me withdrawing from her for a few months, not wanting to do things, etc. and, absent understanding this was the fog of depression doing this to me, probably looked to her like I was checking out of the relationship. Then I laid very hurtful and heartbreaking things on someone who has never experienced that. Trusting me again will be a huge issue for her, I'm sure. Though I now know my actions were not my true self and feelings (I've explored this in therapy to be sure of my own feelings), the hurt was very, very real and painful for her, and it came from me, my voice, my body looked at her and said these things. I'm struggling to reconcile this, that I needed this to break out of me to break this cycle and start me healing, but at what price, on the woman I've loved and protected so much for years from hurt as best I can....

 

Is there anything I can do to help her with these trust issues, the person she was exposed to for a week, possibly months, besides the no contact period?

[lonelyalone]

If you continue to have issues with someone in your family of origin that you have not dealt with that is part of your inner pain, then find the courage to deal with that pain before you try to have a loving relationship with someone, because no matter how hard you try you will project that pain and anger onto them.

 

Cadence44, thank you so much for your post, and for your perspective, there are many similarities there for her if I'm honest, and I really appreciate it. I am so sorry you went through that, and hope you found peace and resolution after that. I feel very sad for her that I did this to her, and very humbled by this experience, that life could take me down without me knowing and make me do this to someone I had never said a bad word to in our whole 5 years.

 

The one difference I'd say, and you referenced it a couple of times, is her personality type is closed, which has made it so hard to talk about issues. She told me this about herself early on, her friends and family have told me this, too. She maintains friendly but professional relationships with co-workers and never, ever reveals herself to her friends when they all go out and talk about their relationships, emotions, etc. Even now, three of her older friends who know us both well and know what our relationship was like and how she was with me and thus want to help us both, have told me she hasn't really opened up to them either about her feelings, only that she seems to have put faith in a therapist helping her resolve what she needs to resolve. The good news is, we have generally not had typical or many issues in the relationship, have both been very understanding of each others needs and there is a lot of kindness and consideration for each other. But I now know she has at least one burning issue, besides this. She never says bad words about people generally, rarely swears and yet in November before we split and in Feb a few weeks after, she called my ex an f'in c, which shocked me, I have never heard that word from her. She wanted to marry me at 32. She is now 35, and very worried about how long it takes to get pregnant, as several of her close friends struggled more than most, including one that tragically miscarried at 20 weeks early last year. Whilst I knew the ex dragging on the divorce hurt us from a moving forward perspective, I can now see that she had additional stresses in her head about her age. She also took on a big promotion at work last summer, just as I disappeared into myself with my own issues, and I can look back now and see how selflessly she supported me when she needed it back, too.

 

I have discovered rapidly some things contributing to my unhappiness. Not the external things I cannot control, such as loss of a parent, a job, the threat from my ex to move the kids away, the delayed divorce. But the fact I had such self-loathing about being a smoker that wouldn't stop, that the type of job I have makes me unhappy, that I have been holding onto such guilt that my beautiful children, 1 and 3 when I separated, would be harmed by my own actions of divorcing my ex and never asked for this, which I am letting go because, at 5 and 7 now, they are normal, happy, beautiful little people.

 

And it took maybe losing the woman I have felt so much for in everything possible, someone who I realized very quickly completes me and has everything I ever wanted in a partner, to get here. I am struggling to reconcile this loss, and pray I can come out of this healed, intact again, with her healed, well, and happily by my side

[mhowe]

There is nothing you can nor should do but respect her request for space.

[Cadence44]

With someone closed off like this, they will never take the lead in addressing problems as they come, which means the other person has to do it. It's a tricky position to be in, because then you can be labeled as "the complainer". If the two of you ever work things out, you must choose your battles wisely, let the small stuff go, and bring up what does need to be discussed in a positive manner with a focus on bettering the relationship as a team. You can encourage her to open up, and make a point to check in with her every so often. Keep it lighthearted and low pressure, and she may begin to feel okay offering up her feelings.

 

Please do not invade her privacy by asking her friends how she is doing or what she thinks. That's not very fair. Wait until you hear it from the source.

 

 

 

I can identify with this. I'm a pretty easygoing person, but the exwife in my case is awful in numerous ways. She had not accepted me, let alone respected my place in my (now) ex's life. She continued to think of herself as the top woman in his life, and attached a whole lot of unnecessary drama in with co-parenting. It was so difficult to watch. We women can pick up on other women's games very easily, whereas men still remain mystified. And my ex believed his ex-wife would always put the kids first, because that's what she said she'd do. Instead, she used the kids to try to control their father, even sabotaging her children when my ex finally put down some boundaries with her. What a great gal. I cared more about her kids' healthy emotional development than she did. They were accessories to her. Yet she got all the credit for being a "wonderful mom" because she can berate them about their academics and drive them to soccer practice. Yeah, what a super person.

 

And I can tell you, as a result of watching her awful behavior, she is one person I would walk right up to and punch squarely in the face if I saw her on the street. There are only two people in my life who hold this special status. Something about watching the woman the guy we love chose to have children act like a rotten person, then know that we don't have kids with him, is very hard to deal with. Resentment builds up quickly.

 

Your ex reached a point where she got fed up, and I do believe the below significantly adds to it.

 

 

 

Essentially, she put her future on hold because of your situation. Your ex-wife probably picked up on the fact that you were with a childless woman in her early thirties, put two and two together and delayed as she did to cause strife between you and your ex-girlfriend. This apparently never occurred to you, but it's pretty clear now why she delayed as she did. She tried to make it impossible for you to move forward with your life with another woman. Is there any way for the new woman not to feel pure hatred for someone who does this type of thing? If so, I'd like to know, because I felt hatred and I think it was justified.

 

Also, your ex-girlfriend took on a motherly role for the children you had with another woman, and delayed having her own. Now, I'm sure she loved doing that, but you have to also understand how painful this can be as a woman without children, especially if you want them. Did you give her any credit for being selfless and bonding with your children? Having been a stepparent, it's really hard work. Really hard. It's all of the work, and none of the bonding hormones or credit for being a parent. She fundamentally altered her life to that of a parent, even though she wasn't one, in order to take care of your kids with another woman. I don't blame her for feeling resentment if it meant she is scared she now has to give up her dream of motherhood.

 

Why didn't you discuss trying for a baby before you could get married, given the circumstances? Why didn't you get engaged, and know that you'd have to wait for the legal marriage? Why didn't you make these gestures if you knew this is the future your ex-girlfriend wanted? It seems like you catered, in a way, to your ex-wife's manipulation tactics and prioritized those. I don't see any of this stuff in your posts, so it seems to have not occurred to you that this is a HUGE issue.

 

Do you get that this is probably a big piece of why she is so incredibly hurt? She spent 5 childbearing years with you, waiting for your f-ing c-nt (sorry, but I agree with her) of an ex-wife to grant you a divorce so that you could start a family. And now she is alone AND childless. She has no right to children she became attached to. She lost a family and the hope of having her own because of your actions. She likely feels dumb for giving you those years, only for you to take her for granted and become venomous toward her. Did it occur to you how much she gave you? How many sacrifices she made FOR YOU?

 

If she wants kids, she would have to meet someone and spend at least a year getting to know him and assessing him as a potential father. With what you did to destroy the relationship she had, she's likely grieving over whether she will ever get to be a mother. DO YOU GET THAT? She has no time to waste and she is terrified and grieving.

 

 

 

Yes, children are surprisingly resilient, especially when both parents are happy and emotionally available to them. This happened with my ex, where he was scared and felt guilty. Then his relationships with his kids became the best they'd ever been, because he was present with them. When he was married to their mom, he was checked out and depressed.

 

 

 

If she is willing to take you back or even talk about it, you better have a ring ready to go and be ready to start making a baby. Get it out in the open right away. To continue to ignore the elephant in the room that this woman has wanted to be married to you and have children and has had to wait because of the selfishness of another woman she never chose to enter her life would be a grave mistake.

 

If she is ever willing to talk to you again, reassure her that you will do what it takes so that she can be a mother. Reassure her that you want to marry her and you are ready to do it right away. And that you will attend marriage counseling with her right away to get any issues between you ironed out so that she can feel comfortable taking these big steps with you.

[lonelyalone]

Cadence44, once again, thank you for your long and thoughtful reply. This is really helping me a lot. Some things you state based on your own experience and wisdom, I agree, those are things I have been thinking of too. Some things, I didn't give enough info in my original, so you are a little off, and I will explain.

 

Please do not invade her privacy by asking her friends how she is doing or what she thinks. That's not very fair. Wait until you hear it from the source.

 

I have been much better at this than at NC with her I'd say she has 6 close friends; 3, I have vowed to never contact, as they are the most likely for her to open up to, for various reasons, and I agree with you, though the temptation is high, I have not. The other 3, though, have reached out to me or volunteered info without me asking. She even told one of them she is glad I am talking to her friends.

 

Essentially, she put her future on hold because of your situation. Your ex-wife probably picked up on the fact that you were with a childless woman in her early thirties, put two and two together and delayed as she did to cause strife between you and your ex-girlfriend. This apparently never occurred to you, but it's pretty clear now why she delayed as she did. She tried to make it impossible for you to move forward with your life with another woman. Is there any way for the new woman not to feel pure hatred for someone who does this type of thing? If so, I'd like to know, because I felt hatred and I think it was justified.

 

You have, and she has, every right to feel hatred. I actually don't think my ex did it to mess with my relationship, though. Have discussed this issue with my lawyers and we agree, it has mostly been about greed of her and her lawyer that she abdicated responsibility to for this divorce, meaning he gets paid the longer it lasts. Also, I had a long relationship but a short marriage to my ex-wife, and in my state of residence, she has a better chance in court of alimony duration if she dragged this out to lengthen the marriage. She also will receive more money monthly from me pre settlement vs. post settlement, so it has been numerous financial incentives. Point taken that she could have been trying to mess with my relationship, though, but not sure in this case.

 

Did you give her any credit for being selfless and bonding with your children? Having been a stepparent, it's really hard work. Really hard. It's all of the work, and none of the bonding hormones or credit for being a parent. She fundamentally altered her life to that of a parent, even though she wasn't one, in order to take care of your kids with another woman. I don't blame her for feeling resentment if it meant she is scared she now has to give up her dream of motherhood.

 

I gave her tons of credit for bonding with my children. I have told her a few times, not many men get to see what their girlfriend is like with their kids before marriage, and I love the way she is with them, and I love how they have mutual love and adoration for each other. In our case, though, she only saw my kids two saturdays a month at my "crash pad", so she didn't take on a busy role of step-parent with lots of parenting and motherly needs, mostly just as a fun friend of daddy. We never showed any affection or signs of dating to my kids, that was something to discuss with the children once the divorce was final. So, whilst she gave a lot around my visitation two nights a week with the kids without her, and gave every other saturday to them and put up with every other weekend being a kids weekend, and I appreciated her a ton for that and told her so, she never had to rise to the level of taking care of them, yet. She was willing to in the future, and I knew she would, in conjunction with our own children, and I loved her for this.

 

Why didn't you discuss trying for a baby before you could get married, given the circumstances? Why didn't you get engaged, and know that you'd have to wait for the legal marriage? Why didn't you make these gestures if you knew this is the future your ex-girlfriend wanted? It seems like you catered, in a way, to your ex-wife's manipulation tactics and prioritized those. I don't see any of this stuff in your posts, so it seems to have not occurred to you that this is a HUGE issue.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't give a full account of these details, so this is a bad assumption on your part, but I understand why you would say this. We discussed this. She is somewhat a traditionalist, and so wanted marriage before having kids. I respected that choice, even though I didn't need that. Having been through a marriage, and understanding it's only what is in your heart that matters, I was less tied to that, but she wanted to do things the "right" way, and I went along with that. Same with engagement, she didn't want to be engaged and have no idea of when the marriage could happen; conversations would forever be awkward, just as awkward, "Oh, congrats, whens the wedding?" "Don't know", so again, given we lived together, loved each other and engagement wasn't something she felt improved this, I was OK with it. She knew I was ready, the moment we could be.

 

Do you get that this is probably a big piece of why she is so incredibly hurt? She spent 5 childbearing years with you, waiting for your f-ing c-nt (sorry, but I agree with her) of an ex-wife to grant you a divorce so that you could start a family. And now she is alone AND childless. She has no right to children she became attached to. She lost a family and the hope of having her own because of your actions. She likely feels dumb for giving you those years, only for you to take her for granted and become venomous toward her. Did it occur to you how much she gave you? How many sacrifices she made FOR YOU?

 

Yes, yes, and yes. I understand all this, truly I do. In my defense, as I cast my eye back honestly as I'm stripped bare and humbled by my own experiences, I was aware and appreciative, openly so, of what it took for her to date me, the sacrifices she made, right through to summer last year, so for 4.5 years of 5. Only in my own funk did that not shine through, to my endless regret and embarrassment and sadness. But, all those things are still there for her, always have been. Something took over me and spit my hurt onto her, and hurt her badly, awfully, whilst it help heal me, to my infinite regret But she can still have me, my children, our life, our children, those feelings have not changed in me. It is a huge, huge, huge leap for her to forgive and forget enough to come back to me, and let me bury this hurt in a lifetime of love, maybe impossible for her, but she is at least considering it, and for that, I am thankful.

 

If she wants kids, she would have to meet someone and spend at least a year getting to know him and assessing him as a potential father. With what you did to destroy the relationship she had, she's likely grieving over whether she will ever get to be a mother. DO YOU GET THAT? She has no time to waste and she is terrified and grieving.

 

I absolutely get this. Hear me out on this, but from my perspective, I represent the fastest and safest path to children for her. I have been ready for years to move forward with marriage and children. I would start tomorrow, I have been committed. It will take her years to meet, vet, marry and start with someone new, so I can understand that she is devastated if that has to be her choice. But also, if you love, you get hurt. This is zero guarantee in life that someone new will not hurt her in the future, leave her for someone else (with her career focus, career success and closed personality, she is TOUGH to date and many guys, including her exes, feel threatened by a smart, independent, successful woman), etc. After what I have done to her right now? I will bend over backwards to avoid hurting her in the future, I swear. I do NOT want her back if she sees me only as a path to babies, don't get me wrong, but if she can find it in her heart to try again with me, I can give her all this. None of this will make any sense or difference to her, so I will never state this.

 

If she is willing to take you back or even talk about it, you better have a ring ready to go and be ready to start making a baby. Get it out in the open right away. To continue to ignore the elephant in the room that this woman has wanted to be married to you and have children and has had to wait because of the selfishness of another woman she never chose to enter her life would be a grave mistake. If she is ever willing to talk to you again, reassure her that you will do what it takes so that she can be a mother. Reassure her that you want to marry her and you are ready to do it right away. And that you will attend marriage counseling with her right away to get any issues between you ironed out so that she can feel comfortable taking these big steps with you.

 

I have had a plan for 3 years regarding the ring and the proposal, and it was to immediately follow the divorce, which I was planning on lying about the date by a month or so, to give myself an element of surprise still. I am desperately sad that the divorce finally is done in 2 days, and that doesn't now get to happen. I have been ready for years, and she knew that, so there is no elephant in the room. I told her a few times in the past few weeks, I am ready to marry her the day she takes me back and try for babies the same night, because I have wanted this as much as her. But, only "ready", not demanding. The timeline is hers to decide. If she wants it ASAP, I'm right there. I have been this way for years. So she knows that. I have also stated that we should immediately do couples counselling if she wants to give us another try, to eke out any issues we haven't discussed, including any that have come from this break, so we are clean and free and can use this to make us stronger and healthier as we move onto bigger things.

 

I will hold onto the fact that on monday she said she needs more time, has not made a decision, that we had a good loving relationship, that she still loves and misses me, and respect her no contact time out of love for her, and pray that the outcome is her "funk' as she described is gone and she is on a path to healing, and that also that path includes re-igniting the dream we shared.

[Cadence44]

I have been much better at this than at NC with her I'd say she has 6 close friends; 3, I have vowed to never contact, as they are the most likely for her to open up to, for various reasons, and I agree with you, though the temptation is high, I have not. The other 3, though, have reached out to me or volunteered info without me asking. She even told one of them she is glad I am talking to her friends.

 

I'm sorry, I still don't see how this is a good thing. Playing a giant game of telephone with mutual friends passing along information after a breakup has its place in middle and high school, but not in adult relationships. You can, and should, ask these meddling friends to stop passing along information to you.

 

If you get back together, are you going to have to wait for her to phone a friend, then you talk to that same friend to communicate effectively? It's pretty ludicrous, and you shouldn't be doing this outside of the relationship either.

 

You have, and she has, every right to feel hatred. I actually don't think my ex did it to mess with my relationship, though. Have discussed this issue with my lawyers and we agree, it has mostly been about greed of her and her lawyer that she abdicated responsibility to for this divorce, meaning he gets paid the longer it lasts. Also, I had a long relationship but a short marriage to my ex-wife, and in my state of residence, she has a better chance in court of alimony duration if she dragged this out to lengthen the marriage. She also will receive more money monthly from me pre settlement vs. post settlement, so it has been numerous financial incentives. Point taken that she could have been trying to mess with my relationship, though, but not sure in this case.

 

I am guessing you don't understand women very well and think that any aggression toward other women would be visible. No, catty vindictive women are life destroyers, but it is all covert and not visible to men who think aggression has to be visible to be aggression. Your ex's ego would have taken a big hit to watch you move on to marry and have kids with another woman. Maybe it was simply a side effect of her dragging out the divorce, but I guarantee she enjoyed the pressure it would put on your new relationship.

 

Do you always defend your ex-wife when she comes up? Because then I might understand even more where your ex-gf's outburst originated from.

 

I gave her tons of credit for bonding with my children. I have told her a few times, not many men get to see what their girlfriend is like with their kids before marriage, and I love the way she is with them, and I love how they have mutual love and adoration for each other. In our case, though, she only saw my kids two saturdays a month at my "crash pad", so she didn't take on a busy role of step-parent with lots of parenting and motherly needs, mostly just as a fun friend of daddy. We never showed any affection or signs of dating to my kids, that was something to discuss with the children once the divorce was final. So, whilst she gave a lot around my visitation two nights a week with the kids without her, and gave every other saturday to them and put up with every other weekend being a kids weekend, and I appreciated her a ton for that and told her so, she never had to rise to the level of taking care of them, yet. She was willing to in the future, and I knew she would, in conjunction with our own children, and I loved her for this.

 

I'm sorry, but this is really strange. Why did you conceal your relationship from your kids until the divorce? So your ex-gf essentially allowed herself to take a backseat in your life for FIVE YEARS and be "daddy's friend?" I can understand wanting to wait until you knew your relationship could go the distance before introducing her as your girlfriend to your children, but five years?

 

Essentially she was made into a second class citizen when it came to your children. Maybe she was okay with it but I guarantee that it wore her down.

 

What is a "crash pad?" Is it a separate residence that you kept to conceal the fact that you were living with your girlfriend? Why was that necessary?

 

I don't know, some people might tell you these are the actions of a good dad, but I think it's excessive and trying to keep reality from the kids. As we've said, kids are adaptable, and I don't understand why you had to present a fake life for them until some legal process was granted. Six months, okay. Five years, ... uh, that's a little crazy.

 

Did you have to do all of this to cater to your ex-wife so that she didn't play games? If so, that would lead to a huge load of resentment on your ex-gf's part, because it would mean you were prioritizing your ex-wife's feelings for five years.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't give a full account of these details, so this is a bad assumption on your part, but I understand why you would say this. We discussed this. She is somewhat a traditionalist, and so wanted marriage before having kids. I respected that choice, even though I didn't need that. Having been through a marriage, and understanding it's only what is in your heart that matters, I was less tied to that, but she wanted to do things the "right" way, and I went along with that. Same with engagement, she didn't want to be engaged and have no idea of when the marriage could happen; conversations would forever be awkward, just as awkward, "Oh, congrats, whens the wedding?" "Don't know", so again, given we lived together, loved each other and engagement wasn't something she felt improved this, I was OK with it. She knew I was ready, the moment we could be.

 

So it was partially her idea to wait. You must understand how disenchanted she was to think the time was finally coming and that she could trust you, only for you to turn venomous around the time the divorce would be final.

 

How much of your depression was tied to the divorce finally ending? Can you say for certain that you have grieved the end of your marriage? You don't say how long you were single after things ended with your ex-wife. If you jumped straightaway into the relationship with your ex-gf, you may have projected the anger you feel toward your ex-wife onto your ex-girlfriend.

 

Yes, yes, and yes. I understand all this, truly I do. In my defense, as I cast my eye back honestly as I'm stripped bare and humbled by my own experiences, I was aware and appreciative, openly so, of what it took for her to date me, the sacrifices she made, right through to summer last year, so for 4.5 years of 5. Only in my own funk did that not shine through, to my endless regret and embarrassment and sadness. But, all those things are still there for her, always have been. Something took over me and spit my hurt onto her, and hurt her badly, awfully, whilst it help heal me, to my infinite regret

 

"Something took over me" is not good enough. Unless you understand exactly where the hatred and anger came from, and have taken steps to deal with it in the correct context, you are at risk of doing it again. We hurt those that we love the most, so you must make sure that any lingering pain from other areas of your life has been confronted and dealt with. Keep running from it and thinking that you can keep it away out of sheer willpower, and you will do it again.

 

I absolutely get this. Hear me out on this, but from my perspective, I represent the fastest and safest path to children for her. I have been ready for years to move forward with marriage and children. I would start tomorrow, I have been committed. It will take her years to meet, vet, marry and start with someone new, so I can understand that she is devastated if that has to be her choice. But also, if you love, you get hurt. This is zero guarantee in life that someone new will not hurt her in the future, leave her for someone else (with her career focus, career success and closed personality, she is TOUGH to date and many guys, including her exes, feel threatened by a smart, independent, successful woman), etc. After what I have done to her right now? I will bend over backwards to avoid hurting her in the future, I swear. I do NOT want her back if she sees me only as a path to babies, don't get me wrong, but if she can find it in her heart to try again with me, I can give her all this. None of this will make any sense or difference to her, so I will never state this.

 

Why will none of this make any sense or difference to her? Do you honestly think she doesn't grasp the reality of the situation that she is in due to your angry outbursts?

 

I'm noticing a trend that you like to keep secrets and present alternate versions of reality and I think you should step away from those things. They will also make someone bottle emotions up and explode.

 

I have had a plan for 3 years regarding the ring and the proposal, and it was to immediately follow the divorce, which I was planning on lying about the date by a month or so, to give myself an element of surprise still. I am desperately sad that the divorce finally is done in 2 days, and that doesn't now get to happen. I have been ready for years, and she knew that, so there is no elephant in the room. I told her a few times in the past few weeks, I am ready to marry her the day she takes me back and try for babies the same night, because I have wanted this as much as her. But, only "ready", not demanding. The timeline is hers to decide. If she wants it ASAP, I'm right there. I have been this way for years. So she knows that. I have also stated that we should immediately do couples counselling if she wants to give us another try, to eke out any issues we haven't discussed, including any that have come from this break, so we are clean and free and can use this to make us stronger and healthier as we move onto bigger things.

 

I will hold onto the fact that on monday she said she needs more time, has not made a decision, that we had a good loving relationship, that she still loves and misses me, and respect her no contact time out of love for her, and pray that the outcome is her "funk' as she described is gone and she is on a path to healing, and that also that path includes re-igniting the dream we shared.

 

Good. Now you have to wait. Cut off the friends and wait to hear from the source. This will be a practice in delayed gratification, feeling okay living in uncertainty, and improved communication in any new relationship if one comes out of this mess.

[lonelyalone]

Thank you again for the thought provoking and lengthy reply, I appreciate this.

 

I'm sorry, I still don't see how this is a good thing. Playing a giant game of telephone with mutual friends passing along information after a breakup has its place in middle and high school, but not in adult relationships. You can, and should, ask these meddling friends to stop passing along information to you. If you get back together, are you going to have to wait for her to phone a friend, then you talk to that same friend to communicate effectively? It's pretty ludicrous, and you shouldn't be doing this outside of the relationship either.

Sorry, but one of her friends is married to someone that is my best friend, and we all have become close over the years due to numerous trips, time and vacations together, so it's very tricky here. This isn't some high school thing, this is adults seeing two people that they love and that love each other, trying to help them through this. I'm sorry you see it differently. They're not really passing information to me on silly slips of paper like at school. There is no information to pass around, as she hasn't revealed her issues to them, as she isn't sure herself. They are helping support me emotionally and offering advice to me about how to handle it as well as providing comfort. The only awkward part came when one of her friends stated they don't agree with her approach, and I ended up defending her to them and explaining what I thought was her perspective given her personality, and they came around.

 

Do you always defend your ex-wife when she comes up? Because then I might understand even more where your ex-gf's outburst originated from.

No, I don't defend her. Not at all. I recognize her for the lazy, greedy, emotionally dumb woman she is. The issue the gf may have here is she knows that I am forever tied to the effing c because of the kids, and so I have to remain civil about her in front of the kids and in my dealings with her related to the kids. I am stuck with this woman for at least 13 more years, with shared custody and joint parenting decisions, so I cannot let my intense dislike of her and the way she handles things take control of me. This is incredibly difficult for me to do and yes, probably whilst my gf intellectually knows I cannot let my true feelings show in my dealings with the ex wife, it probably still burns her. This, I am unsure how to reconcile; it's probably impossible.

 

I'm sorry, but this is really strange. Why did you conceal your relationship from your kids until the divorce? So your ex-gf essentially allowed herself to take a backseat in your life for FIVE YEARS and be "daddy's friend?" I can understand wanting to wait until you knew your relationship could go the distance before introducing her as your girlfriend to your children, but five years?

 

Not my decision alone, at all. I have gently tried to release this over time, but she is adamant, perhaps too stubborn, in doing things in a certain sequence.

 

What is a "crash pad?" Is it a separate residence that you kept to conceal the fact that you were living with your girlfriend? Why was that necessary?

 

Same again, we decided to live together in her apartment, and it wasn't suitable for the kids as well, so I got a small place that I could use every other weekend when I had the kids. You are being a bit hostile to me here, please, can you pause a second? I really do appreciate your viewpoint, and I need to hear things said as you state them, and I do think on them, even if my instinct is to recoil initially, so I appreciate your comments, I really do, you are being very helpful. But, you seem to think my ex wife is in full knowledge of my relationship and is therefore trying to wreck it, but in this case, you also say I'm concealing it from her? My ex knows I live with my gf, same as I know she has been dating a guy for almost as long as I have been dating. We don't swap happy stories about our relationships and everything we do, but we do discuss trips, etc. where she and her bf, or me and my gf, take the kids away, etc. Both of us are aware of the extent of our relationships.

 

I don't know, some people might tell you these are the actions of a good dad, but I think it's excessive and trying to keep reality from the kids. As we've said, kids are adaptable, and I don't understand why you had to present a fake life for them until some legal process was granted. Six months, okay. Five years, ... uh, that's a little crazy. Did you have to do all of this to cater to your ex-wife so that she didn't play games? If so, that would lead to a huge load of resentment on your ex-gf's part, because it would mean you were prioritizing your ex-wife's feelings for five years.

Hindsight, yes, the limbo the dragging divorce left us in does seem to have left a couple of things that we should have revisited. However, these are not my choices alone. There was no catering for my ex-wife, if anything, these choices are catering to my gf.

 

So it was partially her idea to wait. You must understand how disenchanted she was to think the time was finally coming and that she could trust you, only for you to turn venomous around the time the divorce would be final. How much of your depression was tied to the divorce finally ending? Can you say for certain that you have grieved the end of your marriage? You don't say how long you were single after things ended with your ex-wife. If you jumped straightaway into the relationship with your ex-gf, you may have projected the anger you feel toward your ex-wife onto your ex-girlfriend.

 

None of the depression was tied to the divorce ending, nor was my gf seeing me turn venomous at the time of it ending. It's all timing here. At the time of my depression, and later my venom, the divorce was in the same never-ending cycle, no end in sight. It was only a week or two after this blew up, that the ex wife came to the table to close, finally. Basically, I suspected (and freaked) in August 2014 that I was going to lose my job, found out for a fact in late October 2014, my role eliminated, last day being April 2015. As the sole bread winner and an ex spouse not willing to work, this put enormous pressure on me on top of many other things. The job loss, however, brought them to the table in early Jan, but this was after the meltdown and events, as they now needed to get an agreement prior to my job loss to protect her. So the only time we have actually had light at the end of the tunnel vs. a seemingly endless process, was after the breakup.

 

I have definitely grieved the end of my marriage. The relationship was over long, long before we separated, and couples and individual counselling only validated that it was the right choice, that the relationship was over and I had no lingering feelings. I had several months alone after the separation, one of the most therapeutic periods of my life, I'd say. I was energized and clearer, far clearer, about me and what I wanted. My therapist says that the anger and hurt that came out of me was related to all the major things in my life, the terminal illness and death of my mother in another country, the stresses then loss of my job, the dragging divorce not freeing me, guilt towards my actions with respect to my kids, etc. and it's target of my girlfriend was typical self-destructive behavior. Nothing to do with any secret lingering love or longing for my ex. That ship sailed long, long ago.

 

"Something took over me" is not good enough. Unless you understand exactly where the hatred and anger came from, and have taken steps to deal with it in the correct context, you are at risk of doing it again. We hurt those that we love the most, so you must make sure that any lingering pain from other areas of your life has been confronted and dealt with. Keep running from it and thinking that you can keep it away out of sheer willpower, and you will do it again.

 

This is very true, and thank you, excellent advice, and it is the subject of much conversations with a therapist, my doctor, my friends and much soul-searching. We/I have identified the obvious things, not mourning the loss of my mother appropriately because of how other things hit soon after, the stress of my job, the never ending divorce, etc, as well as some things I pressured myself about internally, but didn't resolve or think of. This has been quite a humbling learning period for me, but refreshing in this context too. Whilst I am incredibly sad at the price I may have paid for this release, I also realize it was entirely necessary to happen for me to get out of this funk, rut, depression, ignorance, call it what you will, and open my eyes and mind, discover and let go issues and make changes in me that lead to a happier, content, aware me.

 

I'm noticing a trend that you like to keep secrets and present alternate versions of reality and I think you should step away from those things. They will also make someone bottle emotions up and explode.

 

As I think I've now clarified, the only secret kept was the extent of my relationship with the gf from my kids, nothing else. That itself may not have been the wisest choice, but it was one that was made.

 

Thank you again for your candor and frankness. I really appreciate this viewpoint, I did read and digest your words for most of the day before responding. I appreciate the time you are spending here for me, even if some of your comments stick in my craw a little