The first move (what women do wrong)

[corvidae]

Personally I think it would be great if men would just stop making so much effort with women, then they would be forced to make some effort of their own. The only reason women can get away with this is because they know that if Man A doesn't ask them out then Man B will. All they have to do is wait. What they don't seem to realise (or what they do realise, but do nothing about) is that they are damaging their chances for happiness by adopting this strategy. There are a lot of men who aren't brazen enough to approach women, but who might be Mr Right or at least Mr Not-A-Jerk. By making it so that only arrogant men feel they can approach them (women) they create a situation where they only meet a certain type of man, and this reduces their chances of finding someone they would be happy with. It also gives them a negative view of men, as they only meet a certain type of man. Let's face facts here, if a man boldly walks up to you and attempts to seduce when you've done nothing to encourage him, he has a very particular personality and is not representative of men in general. By not making any effort to meet other types of men, this is the only type of guy you will meet! Bad luck for us men, and back luck for a lot of you women. If women were willing to give a little effort this would make them more approachable and open up new avenues for relationships. As it is women shoot themselves in the foot then complain it hurts.

[Double J]

I agree and disagree with you on some points. I agree that if women were to do the work themselves, it would be a world of a difference for us guys in terms of not having to risk being rejected as usual. But unfortunately, this doesn't usually happen. We are men - we're expected to be the aggressors and pursue these women. I think many girls don't like guys who take the passive approach. I've heard girls say that they like a guy who goes for what he wants; having the guts to approach the girl and ask her out (yeah, even if it's a cold approach) shows self-confidence.

 

Practice makes perfect. In order to succeed in all that we do, we have to experience rejection. It happens to everyone. You can't experience success without experiencing failure at some point. I think one of the main things you have to show girls is that you could care less if they accept your offer to go out with you or not - that in itself is attractive because it shows you have a life that doesn't revolve around her. The whole process also makes you more self-confident - you shouldn't have to depend on a girl to be happy or feel satisfied.

 

You made it seem in your post like you feel that only arrogant men tend to approach women. Not true. I'm not arrogant and I've done it. A guy has to realize that he has nothing to lose. You see an attractive girl - the only way to get the ball rolling is to approach her. Yes, it's better if you're prompted to do so after she's given you little signs (wink, stare, etc), but if she doesn't, you should still try anything. You absolutely have nothing to lose, and if she decides to pass, it's her loss. If we depend on sitting around and waiting for a girl to ask us out, we're in for a long wait.

[bzborow1]

From an evolutionary perspective as well it's almost always the male who pursue's the female, so it's really just...life. Yeah the previous poster is right, you gotta practise...it's the same thing with sports, the more you practise the better you get. You need to get to a point where you can tease girls who are attractive in fun ways without fear of them taking it personally...because if they do you know they're not for you.

 

I would practise approach women, just chatting with them. THen try askin for their emails. Then numbers, etc. But the most important thing you do happens after the conversation, you need to analyze what just happened, what you could have done better, what you did that worked, etc...The only bad part of being rejected (failure) is to not learn from it.

[sisterlynch]

I like people who like me and that I have certain things in common with. It doesn't take looks alone to attract me to someone. I like a guy who will meet me half way. In most cases it doesn't take that much for a guy to show that he is interested in me, certain glances -- certain looks returned, physical looks, like he looks at my legs or smiles when I turn to look at him, these are unmistakable signs that he likes me. that makes me feel more confident in his presense, because I feel like he has my back if he likes me.

 

8)

[Francis]

I really would like to be able to approach men, but I am way too shy for that. However, let me explain another reason why I don't do so and why I let men do all the work:

 

My mom explained to me why men should do all the pursuing : When a man approaches you, you never know what is in his mind : I would say most of them just want a free ****, trying their luck. There are a lot of guys out there who are married or have a gf and they will still try to use other women. So, the first rule is that a man has to prove himself thouroughly before giving him a chance.

 

I feel that if I pursue a guy, I will never find out whether he really likes me or not, because most guys will never say no to a woman, they'll just take advantage of the situation. I would feel ever worst if I've spent some money on him and I find out later that he did not really like me. In any case, I've never take such a risk.

 

On top of that, I find that men are constantly playing indifference, staying cool and don't want to show their feelings, thereforeeee it is difficult to ascertain if a guy really likes you or not.

 

I hope this will help you understand the situation a bit better. The question is HOW TO KNOW IF A MAN IS REALLY INTERESTED AND NOT PLAYING A GAME???

[sisterlynch]

Hi Francis,

 

This is a game that you are talking about, didn't your mom call it "hard to get," so (as Dr Phil likes to say) how is that working for you, or are you looking for a new plan?

 

The new world woman doesn't have to wait for a man to ask her out does she??

 

There are plenty of ways to find out if he has a gf or a wife, did you ever look at the left hand of a man who was married and not seen a ring?

 

 

Did you ever ask him if he is seeing someone? Do men lie to get women into bed?

[PrincessLinzay]

I agree with you Francis. Always I was told that men like to do their own hunting. I always thought that men were put off when a woman was aggressive. I recently hit on a guy for the first time in my entire life and am finding it extremely difficult to read his signals. They change every frickin day! Im not difficult, I like to KNOW when a guy is interested in me. Guys are impossible!

[sisterlynch]

It really isn't that hard to read guys, if he isn't giving you the right signals then go forth and love someone else...if he is nice and kind and just wants a friendship -- is it that hard to ask him out?? Most men would love to be asked out, ask them??

[Francis]

Hi, SisterLynch,

 

I think there are a number of men who are dating or who are married and who take their ring off. It is unfortunate, but very common in my experience. Fortunately, I've always had very good relationships (except for the last one, but that's because he is a slob) because I've always been very careful.

 

I think there are a lot of guys who even though they have gfs or a wife, they may see a beautiful woman and try any trick in the book to get in her pants. I've always felt I have to protect myself from men. I wish I could be a new world woman, but as long as men are playing games like that, I guess I'll stay hard to get. I hate mercantilism, but how to really know if a guy likes you or only wants your body? Perhaps I have not developed a very good discernment with men, in order to realize what they really want, too much studying, not going out enough, but waiting for the guys to do all the work is the only viable solution for me, right now.

[bzborow1]

I think from a guys perspective what you are experiencing is most guys inability to communicate appropriately to you. For example every one of you has posted you can tell exactly when someone's interested, etc...but for guys it's much harder. Women are masters at reading body language. As for the whole who approaches who, a lot of it has to be the fact women get hit on every day. I mean if you've got guys approaching you all the time you really have no need to pursue.

[PrincessLinzay]

Sorry SisterLynch~

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. I have two brothers, their friends, and a plethera of male friends who have only reinforced my belief that men like to do their own hunting. Im not saying women should sit idly by and make the men do all the work. Give him the foundation, make it blatant that you're interested, but let him take some initiative as well. Can't erase thousands of years of sheer human instinct.

 

As for the guy I made a move on, he's kissed me, we've hung out, but he's still hard to read. I should have let him pursue something if he was interested. I hate being the cat.

[bzborow1]

I'm going to agree with the Princess...This comment sums up the dating game as well as this dicussion.

 

Can't erase thousands of years of sheer human instinct.

[RayKay]

While there are times I will make a first move....it won't be to ask for a first date or anything. Why? Because I think having a guy ask me out first is one of the only indications I can have that a guy has serious interest in me. If he can get over his nervousness or what have you to ask me out, then he is interested!

 

Women are also told men like to chase (and not be chased), to not be so available, lest we set a pattern for the relationship, or get labelled needy, clingy...we are told that if a guy is that interested, he will let us know. And many of us women are also just really jaded, we have met guys who are players, who are jerks, who have no interest in us other than what is in our pants, etc. It's not that there is another guy waiting for us, it is that we want the right guy to suck it up and make a move.

 

And when we do make the first move, sometimes we are told we did the wrong thing! For example, this morning I told the guy I have been dating I would like to be exclusive in our dating each other, which he agreed to, and I had some friends tell me I should ask him (including some male friends) but now on here when I post about it, I have people telling me I should not of...so what should I do? You know what I mean?

 

Like I said, I will make first move on some things, but when it comes to asking for a first date, or some of the other dating challenges that arise early on, I prefer the guy to make the first move.

[bzborow1]

Raykay,

 

Very good points, but perhaps it is also the guys job to recognize the "defense mechanisms" that woman create (perhaps unknowingly). I find women tend to test men all the time, but i've had best success if you can just think past the defenses and tests (a common test i've seen as an example is a girl being difficult). Any thoughts?

[joe45]

what happens if the girls likes the guy but the guy is too shy to approach the women then what

or what happens if the girl likes the guy but the guy doesn't like the girl

 

ya now the hot guys , good looking hunks, get a lot of girls-yea six pack, and nice bod men if ya want em go after em. some are lazy like me.

 

if u wait for a guy to come to u ,u might get the fugly men or the loser types, b/c hot successful men usually go for the same hot bod women. hot good looking guys just get more options and don't try hard

[sisterlynch]

Guys who play the game well know how to lie and cheat and steal to get what they want. If they can somehow guess that you are an easy target, then they will persue you. You need to make yourself available to them.

 

You are right, I have never asked a guy out, but I would be around him if I thought i had a good chance of making a relationship with him. If you are a hunter too and like to pretend to be a passive participant in the game of love, then you will get talked in to things, if you let them know that you are being honest and want to be respected, then you can learn to develop your conversation to a point where they will value you if you have your clothes on or off. Of course nothing is 100%...don't put all the eggs in a single basket either. A guy that has all your attention is most likely to fumble the touchdown because of the pressure that it takes to sustain interest with a high maintentance person.

[corvidae]

Some misconceptions discussed:

 

There are some really interesting points here, and it is great to hear things from the female perspective but...

1. The notion that men don't like aggressive women and enjoy 'the hunt' is somewhat misleading. Firstly I'm not sure how people are defining and 'aggressive' women. Is every woman that isn't passive aggressive? Is it a black and white issue? I'm sure there's some middle ground where women can feel comfortable making some effort whilst not being intimidating or too forward. Most (if not all) the men I know would love it if a women let them know she was interested or made the first move. Secondly, some men enjoy the 'hunt' the the 'chase' or whatever. Wonderful. Good luck to them. A lot of men don't enjoy the 'chase'. I, for example, hate hate hate the notion that I am 'chasing' someone for the simple reason that the concept of chasing implies that they are running way. Listen...playing hard to get is fine for some men, but it's not always appropriate. A lot, and a mean a lot, of men will take the 'hard to get' response as rejection and back off. It takes a particular type of man to get cold signals and still keep coming on. Especially in this day and age when we're told that women are emancipated and strong and blah blah blah...why should we expect you to be coy?

 

2. Evolution. Ah, wonderful evolution. Don't get me wrong, I'm a molecular biologist, I understand that nature of courtship and the roles men and women play in terms of genes and genetics as anyone. In most cases much better. I know that men evolved to seduce and women evolved to resist seduction, but that was mainly to control who's genes you mingled with. We have minds now, intelligence, brains...higher thought? The next time you (if you are a woman) are resisting a man in order to 'test' him, ask yourself why?

 

3. Testing. Arrgghhh...you would 'test' me? I think I'll rather stay single...forever, than have someone who thinks they have the right to test me. OK, women are supposed to be empathic right? So you tell me how you think it feels for someone to play some stupid game, to feign lack of interest etc... to make you feel like dirt, as a test...a TEST!! Why are men supposed to leave their dignity and self-respect at the door? Well I have dignity. I like and respect myself even if women don't.

 

4. So women like men to approach them because it shows that the men overcame their nervousness to approach them etc... wonderful. But why should we men 'prove' ourselves to you women? Why does it HAVE to be like that? What do you do to 'prove' yourselves to us men? Nothing. You just stand about looking pretty. And how, pray tell, do you think it feels to have to put on a display and be judged? Pretty damn horrible. So use those higher brains of yours and stop acting like your genes are the still the boss.

 

5. Women are empathic masters of body language. No they aren't. If they were they'd realise how they drive away nice guys and stop behaving they way they do.

 

6. This is the way it is, accept it. No, I will not accept this. Someone somewhere has to make a stand.

[sisterlynch]

what happens if but the guy doesn't like the girl

 

ya now the hot guys , good looking hunks, get a lot of girls-yea six pack, and nice bod men if ya want em go after em. some are lazy like me.

 

if u wait for a guy to come to u ,u might get the fugly men or the loser types, b/c hot successful men usually go for the same hot bod women. hot good looking guys just get more options and don't try hard

 

I am not sure what your point is Joe, yes the very good looking people in this society are in a class all by themselves, and I for one couldnt care less...they are the least of my worries...they stay in their fenced communities have their orgies and dope parties and only see people like me during the week... ! Let them stay at their golf courses and country clubs and hazings and frat parties....who needs them!!

 

Corvidea!! Very Good Points!! Smart Guys Rule!! Pretty Boys Drool!!

[grayshifter]

On testing, and dating:

 

1. Dating is testing. What else are you doing but testing if that person will be a good mate for you? So to try to separate dating and testing is impossible. But saying that testing goes just one way is wrong too. Both partners are testing each other.

 

2. You test for what you want. Again, this goes both ways, but I've seen more of it with women testing the men, because men (bless their hearts!) are often so smitten that they think their SO is perfect (for a time, anyway).

 

The way this testing works is...

- you want someone with self confidence? Wait to be asked out. Want absurdly high self confidence? Say no, and see if they ask again, later.

- you want someone smart? Constantly challenge them in conversation.

- you want someone moral? Put them in a situation where the immoral choice looks good and see what they do.

- you want someone caring? Act hurt and see how they react.

 

I'm not advocating these strategies, but merely saying that they exist. Correct me if you think I'm wrong. I don't think I am.

[Francis]

I don't think you should allow ANYONE to debase you or make you feel like dirt. Certainly, when someone acts that way to me, I stop talking to them forever and even thinking about them.

 

I think everybody should get to know their partners thoroughly BEFORE initiating any physical contact, otherwise they may be unpleasantly surprised and get attached to the wrong person.

 

I don't think that getting to know someone is putting them through a "TEST". I just want to know a few things before getting involved physically. I said that men have to "prove" themselves in the sense that they have to prove they have the qualities that I seek in a man : transparency (not pretending indifference), integrity, good character, hardworking, monogamous. Unfortunately, there are a number of men and women who will PRETEND to possess some of these qualities but they don't. It is important for me to find out.

 

For instance, it is not enough if the guy says : "I don't have a gf". I must be able to meet with his friends and obtain "hard evidence" that they effectively don't have a gf or a wife: So many guys married or with a gf have hit on me, since I was very young too! What a shame!

 

For these reasons, I like to get to know someone very well and I think men should slow down and try themselves to get to know someone before initiating physical contact.

 

I don't want a guy who only likes me because "I stand about being pretty". How could I know he wants more than physical contact with me? Or perhaps he does not care about values or character?

 

In spite of all this, Corvidae, I understand very well how you feel. When I was younger I also felt it were a bit disgusting having to prove myself. I thought that the "perfect man" would recognize immediately that fact that I am a person of quality.

 

Now, I realize that people don't have a crystal ball. Also, I had a bad experience with a guy who pretended for a long time to be a good person. Only eight months into the relationship, he showed his true colours, once he knew I was hooked. It was very difficult to separate. Now, I understand why others want to get to know you slowly first.

 

On the other hand, don't ever let anyone debase you. It is good that you have self-respect. Take care!

[Double J]

I wish it wasn't ALWAYS this way either. It'd be so much easier for us if women decided to take the initiative. A girl will rarely make the move herself. But if you think about it, human nature is funny. We might hate risking rejection, but imagine if you took the initiative to approach a girl, asked her out, etc and eventually she did fall in love with you. Wouldn't you feel proud of yourself in a sense? I know that getting the nerve to approach a girl isn't easy, but it should be seen as a challenge that can only help you in the long run. If she accepts, you're in. If she doesn't, think of it as her loss, and it can only boost your confidence that you were able to approach an attractive woman and give it a try.

[JonnyG]

I have to agree a lot with corvidae. I don't think in this day and age it should still be the man doing almost ALL the work when it comes to taking the initiative. I don't even expect 50/50 efforts, but perhaps 20/80. The man is expected to make the first move, to make the first phone call after the intial meeting, to set up the first date, to pay for the first dates. Its not sounding too fair.

 

As i mentioned on a previous thread, and corvidae has mentioned, how many pretty much perfect men walk out of women's lives because they can barely gain the confidence to look at him a few times and smile. U know this is true because take any night out and u watch the guys and girls and almost every guy will give a few glances to girls he likes, but its rare to see a girl give a few glances to something she likes. More like she sits patiently hoping he will come over and chat to them. Its stupid.

 

I might sound like a bit of a tard saying this and I don't want to sound vain, but I consider myself to be quite a good looking fella. I also have a nice body from years of sport and the gym. I dress well, groom well, and use aftershaves that reviews from women give like top stars for and say makes them have "orgasms" basically from smelling them. And yet no matter what, whether I act Mr cool and collective, or smiley and happy, I find the lack of girls stares disturbing. Whats wrong with me? I think i look good, my friends say I look good, girls who I have been out with or pulled say I look great (ok, bit biased as they obviously liked us anyways but u get the point). Although im no perfect hunk, I still consider myself well above the average joe. So why the lack of attention?

 

Ok, now reverse this role and have the female version of me with looks which arent supermodel quality, but still very attractive, and almost every guy who is single will give her a couple of stares, preying for a return glance. Doesn't matter if she is cool and collective or happy and smiley, she WILL get those looks. Why?

 

Interestingly enough, the place I probably get the most looks from women is the gym. Perhaps its because they like the fact that I take care of myself. Or maybe because they go to the gym they have higher confidence levels and are thereforeeee able to give me more glances?

 

Maybe its just me? (anyone else find this phenomenom?), but im pretty sure that girls just don't seem so bothered to look at things they find attractive and if they won't make the effort to chat to guys, the least they can do is manage a few more hints.

 

Anyway, there are some women who do make more effort, do go upto guys, do give the signals. Thank God for them, they have made my life easier at times, because I'll tell u this, if a girl doesn't look at me at least a few times, the chances of me going upto her are virtually nil. All it takes are a few looks and a smile (the key in my opinion) and i'll happily go over to them. Luckily I have met women in the past thanks to them giving me the hints. I just wished more of them showed that confidence.

 

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention. Once again the stupid myth abut the chase was mentioned. Fair enough, some chasing is fun (but it gets tiring after a while). If u are often successful then I can imagine it would be enjoyable. So if u look like Brad Pitt and your smart and loaded, im sure the chase must be fun as u often succeed. But many of us fail for 1 reason or another, and it doesn't take a scientist to realise that rejection isn't fun. NONE of us like it, so why would we want to continously put ourselfs on the path to it? Surely it would be better to sit back and relax and get a Q of girls lining up to chat to us? I don't think I know any man who would turn down hot girls coming upto them

[1899]

I was working up the guts to talk to a girl tonight at my bible class.We are not in the same class but we all usually meet in the same lobby afterwards. but as soon as class was over and we were all conversating with one another near the door, I got close to her, coming up from behind as shes walking out the door and just decided i couldint do it. Why? Well it seems like women are sexless or somthing. Its like sometimes they dont seem to give you the time of the day. Like im not even there! Like im a water fountain on the wall. Imean look, Im young! Im single! Atleast wink at me or throw your hand up! id be more than happy to wave back!

 

Its like she was busy talking to others and id feel like i was interrupting her if i tapped her on the shoulder and said anything. Like I NEEDED her attention.

 

But I also think part of my personal problem is i have a baby face, look really young. EVERYONE i first meet young and old say, "how old are you? Oh I thought you were 15 or somthing" So some girls my age probably just blow me off as some kid. Its a vicious cycle! I really dont know what to do. I thought of growing facial hair but I really prefer a clean cut look.

[Caldus]

But I also think part of my personal problem is i have a baby face, look really young. EVERYONE i first meet young and old say, "how old are you? Oh I thought you were 15 or somthing" So some girls my age probably just blow me off as some kid. Its a vicious cycle! I really dont know what to do. I thought of growing facial hair but I really prefer a clean cut look.

 

I look pretty young for a 19 year old and have the face of a 16 year old. Seriously it's not a big deal because some girls love the babyface look. So don't feel so down about it.

 

As for me, I would like to have some genuine conversations with girls and get to know them (without all of the games). I don't like this whole idea of people having to test you to see what you are made of. I think that if two people are seriously attracted to each other then they will have good genuine conversations with each other and will "just happen". It will "just click" so to speak. No games or testing need to be done in that situation. But that is just my opinion.

[jurupa]

I think we have a Catch 22 here.