Post-birthday NC break - How to React Next?

[nookbridge]

I haven't replied, so no update... There's something in me that says ignore her and walk away. I think below you address it...

 

Do you mean manipulative, sneakly uncooperative/avoidant and passive-aggressive?

 

Manipulative, yes, playing games, yes, sneakly uncooperative, yes. Dismissive attitudes, like she doesn't need me, but then again, she keeps contacting me.

 

She cares yes, but more as a news piece, as I care because I want to get back to him. Did you mean, back to HER?

 

Yes, it seems like she cares to see me out of curiosity, and I don't care how she's doing (other than in health), more that I want to back with her.

 

So what I'm saying is, curiosity has a POINT or else the curiosity dies or doesn't surface in the first place. And that's what you're endeavouring to discover. What's her point that clearly she feels is WORTH that amount of effort? It doesn't tally with mere short-burst ego drive, IMO. Only if she had an OVER-ACTIVE ego would there be enough urge to justify this expense of effort (but even that would still be a short-term burst). But were that the case, why would you want someone like that back even after enough time to realise she HAD an ego problem?

 

I agree with your point on curiosity. The curiosity stems from seeing me as OPTION #2. That's what I firmly believe. I don't know if I start making her jealous and seeing that OPTION #2 is going will provoke anything from her. I don't think she enough of an ego for that, in fact, I suggest she has a deficiency in "feel-goodiness"

 

Me, I think you've hit a negative wave and [1] are trying to explain to yourself why you feel quite this bad by painting her blacker than she is so that you can attribute it to her being so black (if you get what I'm saying), plus [2] you're bracing yourself for rejection and trying to buffer it by basically convincing yourself she's not worth having back, anyway.

 

I don't disagree because I'm self-aware enough to know these two things popped into my head. Especially as a new girl has entered into the picture. It's still early days, but I hate that I'm constantly comparing. New girl is more mature, stable, self-assured, but ex is more vibrant and spontaneous. If I keep comparing, I will never be happy with either option and be setting myself up to treat new girl as a rebound.

 

Let me ask you - how did you and she first meet and then bond? Did it follow this same method of IM-ing, either entirely or inclusively?

 

Friend introduced me to her at a bar, spent 2 minutes or so with her and got a joke or two in. Saw her 4 days later, went out in a big group, and at one point in the night chatted her up aggressively while another girl was wanting me. She said thanks for the attention, but please go see the other girl before this gets ugly for you. I saw her two weeks later with friends, and chatted her up even more, and got some sort of connection. She FB-added me, and we chatted IM for 4 hours or so maybe another week later. (I was cautious as I kind of knew a friend of mine was also going after her, but only got confirmation after our chat (see below) and kissed in public in front of our friends for the first time). Chatted a little bit more in following days, then got together with her and a friend to an event in the morning a week later. Dropping them off at home, I asked who wanted to join me shopping later around town - she jumped on it. Shopping turned to drinks turned to kissing turned to, well, more kissing (gentlemen don't kiss and tell). Met the next day through friends, and the next 3 or 4 days, but always in a group, or sometimes I took her to the side. Date a week later, then another date days later, then instantly I'm meeting best friends, family, etc. Two weeks of high, high-intensity courtship later, I told her that I was leaving in weeks abroad and we should probably decide now before going any further whether you want to invest any more of our feelings before we really, really get hurt. I told her that I'm falling hard, I'm falling in love with you and I've spent years trying to find the person, and it's ****ty it's happening in these circumstances, but I have serious feelings and I'll take this where you want it to go - however, this is going to be awful if we spend more energy because we're going to be heartbroken for a long time if we step in and then step out. So, 50-50 IM and in person stuff. Without the in-person stuff, I wouldn't have stood out.

 

Despite I suspect I can work out what you're saying - that you manipulate the person to sell to themselves merely THROUGH you and that the fact they stay on the line rather than put it down on you immediately is a huge clue - basic sales psychology is not the whole pie. Did you ever get back, as in manage to significantly re-sell to, a client who'd withdrawn his business with your company in outrage and disgust or who'd just been badly stung by another company? Anyway, even where basic sales is concerned, don't you remember you're not supposed to accept the first two or three Nos? And what about where selling anything of very high value is concerned? Have you forgotten that this is the long-haul strategy as requires building a relationship via wooing the client, possibly at first via the ego until the heart joins in?

 

I never worked on reacquistion of clients, which is a different sales world to mine, which was pure sales and very little wheeling-dealing/compromise/cutting deals. Reacq involved a lot of "what do I need to do to get you to come back?" chats, while we were simply trying to develop a "need or a want" in the customer, and get them to bite. If they say no, work the client, and depending on where you seeing it go, you be persistent and then cut your losses when you reach the limit. You never ever let the customer go because the hottest moment is the moment of first contact - which means I'm breaking that rule now but not following up more quickly to her... Most of my deals where low-value, little connection with the client (but yes, build up the need or want highly at the moment - more like getting a number or sex, than to find a long-term partner).

 

Do you mean you weren't a confident closer?

 

I was considered, technically, a very good closer because I had a good knowledge of the techniques, I read people well and knew when to attack, but often my attitude got in the way. Lots of rejections put me in a bad mood, and my numbers reflected it. I was very streaky...

 

What about if ever your trainer/superviser was secretly participating and directing?

 

I always did well in front of them, but they knew that I was streaky and we all knew it was because I take rejection poorly as a person. Maybe something from my childhood, or that I care too much about things - I'm still trying to understand the reason for it. But sales was awesome, despite the aesthetics of cold-calling people and going door to door selling cable (minus the time I had a gun pulled on me, had the cops called and got soaked by a *****)...

 

 

You can vaguely tell who is or isn't in there, can't you? And then some you definitely can't. Why - what did you reply when she said that?

 

I can't, really. I always replied back saying that I'm doing well for myself. She would always come back saying, well I have a lot of guys coming up to me, and that I'm getting more attention than back home, and who know, maybe I'll have myself [insert nationality].

 

Do you mean your only choice of reapproach method?

 

Preferred choice. I'm able to control myself better in person than via IM, I think.

 

Dear me - you WERE in a black cloud when you wrote this, weren't you! Do you feel better today?

 

Probably, and no. I mean, I feel better that I have an OPTION #2 that is on the side. Makes the risk a lot lower for me at least.

 

Were you controlling?

 

Yes, too much so. Didn't give her enough leash out of trust. Nor did she, for that matter.

 

What does your final sentance mean? Did you mean 'impression'?

 

Yes

 

Well, that's easily sorted: You have already lost. So you HAVE nothing to lose. You can't lose a chance - a chance isn't really real, it's just a method of self-conning so that you'll find the drive to begin the process of acquiring. All that is on the menu now is GAIN. And if you don't gain, you've lost nothing.

 

Better? Got some confidence back?

 

Uff, a little. It's funny that I'm like this. I want something, kinda sorta it seems, but won't put the effort out there because I'm too scared of getting a 'NO'. As if there is no one else in the world like her. Kind of sad.

 

You act like she doesn't know YOU. And you act like you think she's stupid. How do you know that she doesn't read poor or kack-handed response as a sign that you're nervous which strikes her as FLATTERING as well as serves to reassure and increase her own confidence? As is you asking lots of questions (which will help lessen the amount of complicated responses needed from you). Sincere flattery + Sincere interest + Making her feel reassured and more confident = Credits.

 

Interesting way at looking at it...

 

Your trouble is you're thinking of it in this fast-paced thus forced manner where it *wouldn't* feel so seamless. Also, you're forgetting that there's TWO of you making effort in this scenario. She's already helped you out, look - she started a new topic so as to make the conversation continue.

 

Methinks you're just whittling and worrying unnecessarily to dissuade yourself out of the game because by having had your expectations for too much get understandably dashed, you're seeing failure looming and can't see the positives and progress. (Good job I can, then, eh!)

 

Right. You're right. So, you're saying, reply immediately with what I said above. Get into any type of conversation with her, keep everything light and just ignore the provoking questions, gently maneouver out of the way of the "I'm hurt" questions and get the ball rolling, always with my mind kept on trying to get her to keep the progress going...

[nookbridge]

Also, the other thing that racks my brain continuously, and I can't figure out an answer to, or get, is this. In the last post, I mentioned an (old) friend who was also going after her more or less in the same time frame as me. He tried to kiss her multiple times one night, and she said NO. He kept on trying, but got really pissed off at my ex when he saw us kissing the next day, saying it wasn't fair, that they thought they had something, etc. She said "I just don't have feelings for you, and for (me), I love him and there's no comparison, so respect that", but I hope we can still be friends . Why you would want to leave him as friends despite all this, a seemingly fake friendship to get after you, I don't know, from her end or his end? But lo and behold, they are friends and hung out over the holidays... So, what does friends mean? (By the way, I haven't spoken to this friend in a while now, easier when you've moved away...)

 

In the above post, I mentioned that our first time out alone, well, it went a bit far. As she left that night, I looked and her and said, "Hey, how do you want this to go? I don't want any misunderstandings. If you want it to be physical, say so, if you want it to be more, say so, but I want it to be an honest". Her reply: "Nothing, we're still friends, nothing has changed. It's all so complicated, I didn't expect this and I enjoyed this, but just let time tell.." So, what does friends mean?

 

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that she lied to her mom, saying that we ended things amicably and we're going to remain friends. Why would you lie about how it ended, when it didn't end that way? Stuff like this makes your head go crazy and makes you try to decipher her definition of friends, her intentions with reaching out to me, and where I lie in everything still... Nattersmatter, you probably have a logical explanation for all of this, don't you?

[Nattersmatter]

Sorry for the absence, my son's been ill this week.

 

 

(BTW: Makes me laugh whenever you say Uff because my own fave, self-made onomatopoeia is similar: 'Pff... ', LOL.)

 

To your question about whether I have a logical explanation for this, I would say: Yuh-HUH! Ex is a massive commitmentphobe.. FAR too emotionally under-ready to participate in any MATURE adult relationship. Despite the etiology wasn't the same - so was I, hence I recognise it in her. I also recognise it in you (albeit you're a different type to her and far less so). (PS: Yeah - it seems obvious what "friends" means to HER, eh.)

 

Anyway, Nookiebridge (;-)) - out of all that you typed, this is what leapt out a mile and all that matters now:

 

>

 

Never mind that you happen to be comparing (it's natural). Look at the overriding ACTIONS. In this case, they're the fact that although you're SAYING this newbie has areas where she doesn't come up to scratch when using ex as your yardstick, in the rest of your mail you're, regardless, suddenly dismissing the ex as well as justifying largely dismissing your prior quest to try to get her back....rationalising it with this excuse, that excuse (including what newbie lacks in vibrancy and that I've identified passive-aggression and other unworkable qualities in the ex, etc., when I'd have thought those were pretty obvious already).

 

You've made your choice, which has more to do with the simple fact of having MET Miss Newbie. But on the conscious level, which simply isn't in receipt of your "company memo" yet, you don't realise it's this clear-cut a decision (hence the conscious wondering about whether newbie can compete with ex in memoriam). But this is the thing: Of COURSE the newbie is going to lag behind in the Marks Out of 10 exercise on mere paper; you haven't KNOWN her as long as you got to know exipoopoos thus nor are ATTACHED to equal level yet (you banana, LOL). But some part of your mind seemingly can tell... can see underneath whichever signs and feelings you are aware you're getting, to what lies beneath and what is to come. I reckon once you've known this new woman for as long as you did your ex, there will be zero contest. Zero!

 

Although, saying that, it does usually depend... on whether one IS genuinely sensing they've got themselves all-round better and/or better-for-them woman or whether one is trying to convince oneself simply to justify throwing in the towel due to the whole prior quest striking them as just too daunting or laborious. However, the latter cause itself STILL points to you not loving the ex enough/not wanting her back enough in the final analysis (right now) to continue the quest with any real oomph - begging the question, WHY? The answer is simple because it's the only meaty development in the frame: it's BECAUSE you can tell the new woman is going to turn out to be more and is going to have more to give (and receive).

 

You don't NEED to justify why you're more or less giving up the ex in favour of newbie. The fact you *are* is justification enough.

 

It's good that you now realise you get somewhat stuck in any mood, especially Black ones, as well as that you lack a way of snapping yourself out of it and that it affects your powers of perception and confidence. You have enough time wherein you can work on trying to find or create a switch in your head so as not to let it affect your new relationship too much OR you can simply warn newbie (when appropriate) that this is one of your shortcomings and ask that she never to take it to heart if ever it happens. People can deal with anything as long as they understand it and won't take it personally if they can appreciate it's not intended that way. Take me: I had to warn my now-husband that I was a recovering full-on Commitmentphobe and that I would - WOULD - most likely seem to try to drive him away or run away at times, but only to enforce my need for a period of solitude, hence not to take it personally nor let me succeed. He didn't. So now we are "here". And he, amongst other things, had to warn me that he could be irritatingly forgetful (oh, boy, is he!) so, by the same token, I've always let him off when for the Nth time he can't find, for example, his car keys and we have to hunt all over for them.

 

This is the point of teaming up with someone whom you have a loads in common with but yet where respective faults/differences are compatible or even helpful. I'm brilliantly organised so have shown him systems for always knowing where everything is (like only ever keeping a certain item in it's 'home' and nowhere else or writing himself post-it-notes). He's very attentive/attention-needing and tactile AND very assertive and honest, but also emotionally intelligent, meaning he doesn't let me take my need for Me Time too far for too long (because that's something *I* can get stuck in).

 

Where you and this new woman are concerned, you say she's not "vibrant and spontaneous" compared to the ex, whilst admitting you get "stuck" in Black pits, with no ladder available for climbing out fast enough, caused by the unexpected (particularly a No or seeming rejection/criticism). Someone "spontaneous" is always going to be dumping something on you out of nowhere, so I reckon someone stable, i.e. STEADY, i.e. doesn't wobble or flit around the place on a whim as ends up affecting YOU, is just what the personality doctor ordered. In other words, 'spontenaeity' when coupled with a lack of self-assurance, isn't genuine spontenaeity but plain uncertainty and impulsiveness and an inability to know which option one should ultimately settle for (hence they settle for either and neither).

 

From all you've said, I don't think you're going to treat newbie like a rebound. I think it's EX who was the rebound - whether on the back of a prior relationship or event. I think you just wanted to let the ex go with an especially long goodbye (think hands mutually sliding slowly cm-by-cm down to fingers down to fingertips down to - poof!, nothing!, gone!)... baby-steps severence. But the thing was, she wasn't maintaining enough hand-contact at this still-early juncture for this 'sliding out of contact' to be happening right...she seemed to be letting go too quickly/holding too loosely... hence you wanted a return to a better, tighter mutual hand grip from whence to start that process anew............ and then - in walks newbie. So now that you have a new hand to hold - and one that elusively hints at there never being any reason to cease - you don't need to try to persuade ex to say adieu in these manageable little portions. Simple. However, because you can't pinpoint and articulate what it is that elusively strikes you as special about newbie, you're not quite confident enough about actually letting ex go entirely, hence thinking you should still go ahead with the email reply so as to increasingly hold newbies hand with your left and decreasingly ex's with your right.

 

I wouldn't bother if I were you. I don't think you're going to need her or this extra-slow Farewell process any more.

 

Re lying to her mum: probably because she didn't want her mum to turn around and go, 'Awww, not AGAIN?!' - whether for real or in her head. A string of contentious, hostile splits, points to one's emotional incapabilities, paucities and laxities (immaturity) whereas an amicable fade-out points to mere incompatibilities that are no-one's fault, least of all hers. She's an under-assertive, bread-buttering approval seeker (hence tries to avoid inevitable bad feeling on the disappointed person's part using friendship as a placatory bribe not to blow their top). I'm sure she has strengths, too, but those won't be enough to compete with her disabilities in terms of compensating for them.

 

You 'know' this. Hence:

 

...I want something, kinda sorta it seems...

 

Kinda sorta and only seems, is right. And kinda sorta and only seems, isn't nearly power enough where getting the ex back is concerned. But kinda sorta is a new attitude towards here WHEREAS already you're trying to protect this newly budding relationship by not wanting to compare or talk in any great detail or length about it (in case you jinx it). Wanting to protect it to that degree certainly could never be called, kinda sorta. It's GOD, YES. So that settles that, then, doesn't it.

 

 

One of the questions you have to use this time to ask yourself, however, is this: Was I a genuine commitmentphobe or did the fast-turnover sales career I fell into train me into thinking in short-term, hand-to-mouth ways (i.e. a temporary reactive-only commitmentphobe), i.e. did you choose the career or did the career let you in and then shape you into being perfect for it, from whence you even sought out the seemingly 'quick sale' woman to date? You put it down to certain of your childhood events but, unless anything in your childhood was very extreme compared to the norm, it won't have affected your personality and modus operandum. It could, then, just be your natural personality to care "too much" which then makes you have to operate like a control freak (and also would have you having this freakery in common with a more full-on commitmentphobic). But caring too much has it's wonderful side. So can't you just accept the downside for the sake of the benefits?

 

Yours (likewise "too" caring (like there's even such a thing!?)),

 

Me. xoxo

[nookbridge]

Sorry for the absence, my son's been ill this week.

 

I hope your son is feeling better. No need to ever apologize. This is worth the wait, though. Top drawer stuff. This reply is probably going to be a lot deeper than normal, because I've had some real low, low, low moments this week and my head is definitely all over the place...

 

To your question about whether I have a logical explanation for this, I would say: Yuh-HUH! Ex is a massive commitmentphobe.. FAR too emotionally under-ready to participate in any MATURE adult relationship. Despite the etiology wasn't the same - so was I, hence I recognise it in her. I also recognise it in you (albeit you're a different type to her and far less so). (PS: Yeah - it seems obvious what "friends" means to HER, eh.)

 

Ex = commitment-phobe? is one of the biggest philosophical questions I've ever had to wonder about in my life. I thought about it from day 1. Why? Because on our first date, she brought up her exes. It should have rang alarms, but I just let it go. What shocked me was the one 3-month-club-stand from 3 years prior story (see below). I still think she isn't though, for whatever reason.

 

Her pseudo-relationship history is as follows: 3.5 year relationship starting @ 18; 6 months after BU has 3 month "guy from out-of-town comes to town Saturday night, and we vertically hookup" relationship, in which he not having sex with my ex still hurts my ex that she mentioned it on our first date (ie. "how crazy is it that I guy won't have sex with me after that long, am I that unattractive?") which ended when her BFF sees him hooking up with his actual gf; 3 or 4 tries to go back to the ex over the course of the next 2.5 years; guy she meets at the club once, actually has sex and goes back for seconds and thirds until he leaves for vacation - and then I come in, back from my long vacation, and almost immediately goes to exclusivity, and demands the same from me. I don't know if those are the patterns of a commitment phobe.

 

Is she emotionally under-ready for a relationship? It's difficult to say, but it's not like she's an immature person. Far from it. Her sometimes-frosty relationship with her parents always was in the back of my head, especially with her dad, who will go months without talking despite living in the same house. I got along great with her dad, but her dad likes to push buttons to get a reaction from you, but I figured out early on that if you ignore him and act more mature, he gives up.

 

She has her days like all women, but in general, she wasn't bad. She did push buttons, more than I realize 6 months post-BU than a few months ago, but I should've avoided the storm. She did really take exception to the fact that I had a career and I'm more a solitary person that she realized. I like my space, and when I feel like you smother me, I push away until I get my breathing room... sometimes too strongly (previous posts)! She does, however, remember things for a loooooong time, and she'll say it's over, I've forgotten, but post-BU, they all came out in one gushing heap of "you disappointed me as a person, friend and boyfriend". She still remembers things her ex did and mention them with pain. Right now though, as you said brilliantly a few replies ago, she's enjoying the simple flavours of friendships, perhaps casual relationships and wants no part of investing emotional energy. Better put, she wants to party all the time and enjoy the adventure, then run back home when it ends. Befriending people and making them best friends immediately (kind of like our relationship's beginning...), screaming for attention and getting her social value and acceptance by being the life of the party who yells loudest, drinks the most, does the craziest stunts... you get my jist.

 

So, that's why I'm hesitating to do anything. She's not going to want to stop this. It's too much fun. She was deprived of this for more than a year, and now for the first time out of the country, not living with her parents, she can do whatever she wants. We all go through this phase in college, but once she gets it all out of the system, she'll try to find someone, fail to find someone of the same caliber as me, and figure she can easily try to see if I am what works for her still or not, and if not, well, I got some sex. Everytime she asks, are you alright?, it seems like it fills the purpose of: 1. release guilt for saying no to someone her heart still wants, 2. pride, showing look at me, I'm so strong I can ask my ex if he's alright or not, haha and 3. games, seeing if I'm still available on the touchline to come in and play.

 

About me, I'm a bit of a commitment phobe when I feel I have tons of choice - ie. in women. Once I know exactly what I want and I fear someone might take it from me, I dive myself in, ignoring the risks, and I love being faithful to that particular thing I choose, because I felt that I thought through everything and I became comfortable with the choice, and I always feel I have a hidden gem in my hands.

 

And yes, friends is sooooo obvious to her. It's like having to put a bow on a present. You put it because it should be there. No one knows why you put it, it just seems right if you like your present to look nice like in the commercials. Friends is like, oh, here's an appropriate title for what we have that makes me feel good, but it has no real purpose, other than, yea, that's how it should be, you know.

 

Now, what I want to ask is this? How do two commitment-phobes throw themselves at each other in a matter of weeks and fall in love in a different country? And what kind of commitment-phobe am I? And how is it different to hers?

 

I don't disagree because I'm self-aware enough to know these two things popped into my head. Especially as a new girl has entered into the picture. It's still early days, but I hate that I'm constantly comparing. New girl is more mature, stable, self-assured, but ex is more vibrant and spontaneous. If I keep comparing, I will never be happy with either option and be setting myself up to treat new girl as a rebound.

 

Never mind that you happen to be comparing (it's natural). Look at the overriding ACTIONS. In this case, they're the fact that although you're SAYING this newbie has areas where she doesn't come up to scratch when using ex as your yardstick, in the rest of your mail you're, regardless, suddenly dismissing the ex as well as justifying largely dismissing your prior quest to try to get her back....rationalising it with this excuse, that excuse (including what newbie lacks in vibrancy and that I've identified passive-aggression and other unworkable qualities in the ex, etc., when I'd have thought those were pretty obvious already).

 

You've made your choice, which has more to do with the simple fact of having MET Miss Newbie. But on the conscious level, which simply isn't in receipt of your "company memo" yet, you don't realise it's this clear-cut a decision (hence the conscious wondering about whether newbie can compete with ex in memoriam). But this is the thing: Of COURSE the newbie is going to lag behind in the Marks Out of 10 exercise on mere paper; you haven't KNOWN her as long as you got to know exipoopoos thus nor are ATTACHED to equal level yet (you banana, LOL). But some part of your mind seemingly can tell... can see underneath whichever signs and feelings you are aware you're getting, to what lies beneath and what is to come. I reckon once you've known this new woman for as long as you did your ex, there will be zero contest. Zero!

 

Uff, it's still early days with Miss Newbie though, you're right. There's no way of knowing if she's gonna back out, or I'm going to back out, or what. I still have to feel it out. I'm just having a tough time trying to figure new girl out because she is sooooo cold, measured in her words, and gives few hints away as to her interest. I think she's playing her cards tight - case in point, last date, I walk on a zebra crossing and almost get whacked by a car, even though I probably shouldn't have gone through... she lays it into the driver as soon as he lowers his window with an expletive-filled rant. My jaw dropped, and she looks at me and ignores what happened.

 

There haven't been enough dates to substantiate forgetting one over the other, but it does open my eyes to what caliber I can attract. The funny thing is that new girl origin's are the same as the ex (down to the province/county), except she has spent her whole life in a northern European country, and so she's not at all like people from her country (typically!). My other worry is that new girl is 22, making her 6 years younger, whereas my ex is older, and that at that age, she still has yet to live through the discovery years of the mid-20s, where things happen, and I don't want to get my heart hurt if she has one of those "I want to live a different kind of life" moments. But I think you're going to be right in the end, for whatever reason - love isn't logical, but new girl makes more sense to me.

 

Although, saying that, it does usually depend... on whether one IS genuinely sensing they've got themselves all-round better and/or better-for-them woman or whether one is trying to convince oneself simply to justify throwing in the towel due to the whole prior quest striking them as just too daunting or laborious.

 

Both conquests are daunting and laborious. Women aren't supposed to be easy to get. It's supposed to be the hardest thing in the world to get the most beautiful thing in the world, the heart of someone you love, no?

 

However, the latter cause itself STILL points to you not loving the ex enough/not wanting her back enough in the final analysis (right now) to continue the quest with any real oomph - begging the question, WHY? The answer is simple because it's the only meaty development in the frame: it's BECAUSE you can tell the new woman is going to turn out to be more and is going to have more to give (and receive).

 

I don't know enough about new girl, yet, to get a good read. And what's worse, there will be a 3 week hiatus now, with both us going on vacations, one after the other. No Valentine's Day, I'm going to Paris to see an old FWB, she'll forget the momentum, etc. I probably don't want my ex bad enough, minus the memories we share that boggle my mind, and trying to make up for the **** I did. Plus, we kind of see how she's acting, via her IMs, and her FB pictures and actions. She doesn't want me, she wants party now. Then, party will end, and she'll see if she can still have me. But I NEED to move on, or else I'm going to continue to be a functionless person with my emotions on a person I can't get. I told her I would wait for her as long as 2 months post-BU, which was stupid to open up about, because it's basically giving her a window to do what she wants, and then come back. But I don't want casual relationships to fulfill my actual needs, then jump back into a possibly impossible situation just because I love my ex. It's a waste of time, no? If she doesn't want me now, too bad, so sad. But I don't think she would rather have fun now instead of luuurve.

 

It's good that you now realise you get somewhat stuck in any mood, especially Black ones, as well as that you lack a way of snapping yourself out of it and that it affects your powers of perception and confidence. You have enough time wherein you can work on trying to find or create a switch in your head so as not to let it affect your new relationship too much OR you can simply warn newbie (when appropriate) that this is one of your shortcomings and ask that she never to take it to heart if ever it happens.

 

As you become older, you wise up to what you do. I have an incredible mental strength when I want something. I can, and have, willed myself to do anything. I'm also mentally lazy most of the time. If my mind feels like reverting to old tendencies, it will in a heartbeat because it's lazy. That's always been my fear in this process. I'm gonna go back and do the same stuff to a new girl, and it's not her fault at all. I have to open up to any new girl I seriously care about about everything... this relationship, my childhood, etc., but I have to do at the right time that doesn't seem like I'm springing a surprise on them, and at a time that I won't have them running for the hills in fear. It's going to be tough, but I guess I have to trust that someone that loves me will accept that I have faults, and if they run, it's because they don't want me for me. I also don't want to use my problems as an excuse in the future. I need to have someone who's strong enough to understand all of this and take it on willingly. The prize for that person is being with me, I guess, so I hope it's worth it. I don't know if my ex would ever be able to want to re-enter a new relationship, now knowing everything, and I don't know if she would be so accepting. She had issues with it the first time around...

 

From all you've said, I don't think you're going to treat newbie like a rebound. I think it's EX who was the rebound - whether on the back of a prior relationship or event. I think you just wanted to let the ex go with an especially long goodbye (think hands mutually sliding slowly cm-by-cm down to fingers down to fingertips down to - poof!, nothing!, gone!)... baby-steps severence. But the thing was, she wasn't maintaining enough hand-contact at this still-early juncture for this 'sliding out of contact' to be happening right...she seemed to be letting go too quickly/holding too loosely... hence you wanted a return to a better, tighter mutual hand grip from whence to start that process anew............ and then - in walks newbie. So now that you have a new hand to hold - and one that elusively hints at there never being any reason to cease - you don't need to try to persuade ex to say adieu in these manageable little portions. Simple. However, because you can't pinpoint and articulate what it is that elusively strikes you as special about newbie, you're not quite confident enough about actually letting ex go entirely, hence thinking you should still go ahead with the email reply so as to increasingly hold newbies hand with your left and decreasingly ex's with your right.

 

I wasn't in a relationship for 7 years before my ex. I didn't even think about my previous ex. I think my ex did fill in a void of a close friend that I hadn't had since I moved from one continent to the other a year prior, and the void of a lover that I hadn't had in 7 years. I came back from the best adventure ever, and here's this person who's attractive, and you're instantly hitting it off and it's just one big whirlwind of amazingness you can't get enough off. I don't want to let go of the ex because I still have feelings for her, although they aren't what they were before, and I'm nowhere close to any guarantees with the new girl. It's just waaaay to early. I mean, I still cry big time when I look back, like I did last night when I read some of the nasty text messages I sent to her. I don't think my ex ever let my hand slip during the relationship... she was committed 100%, and maybe I wasn't so much. But as soon as she got a sniff of parties and new, cool friends in Sept. (break-up being end of July, her vacation in August, still hanging out at the end of August b/c of lack of other options), poof, I've turned the page, I want paaaaaaartttyyyyyyy, and goodbye honeymoon heroin!

 

Now, I know there's almost no way of getting my ex back, so it's tough to get the courage to go to battle to have 2 at the same time, when 1 is suffice. Although, it would stand to reason that I'm coming from a place of strength, with a back-up plan if all things fail. Problem is the ex will get the last laugh, and I hate my pride getting hit in a last ditch effort to get her back to no avail.

 

Kinda sorta and only seems, is right. And kinda sorta and only seems, isn't nearly power enough where getting the ex back is concerned. But kinda sorta is a new attitude towards here WHEREAS already you're trying to protect this newly budding relationship by not wanting to compare or talk in any great detail or length about it (in case you jinx it). Wanting to protect it to that degree certainly could never be called, kinda sorta. It's GOD, YES. So that settles that, then, doesn't it.

 

I have the courage to do it, when my mind is right. Now, is it really going to get me anywhere? Am I just going to run the risk of hurting myself more? Probably. Is this what I really want, or am I using this as a tactic to trick my head to be lazy and wait for my ex, because I'm too lazy or fear rejection too much to get someone new? Probably the latter. Am I trying to get my ex to fill a void that I should fill with someone else + more friends + better rounded? Probably correct, again.

 

Was I a genuine commitmentphobe or did the fast-turnover sales career I fell into train me into thinking in short-term, hand-to-mouth ways (i.e. a temporary reactive-only commitmentphobe), i.e. did you choose the career or did the career let you in and then shape you into being perfect for it, from whence you even sought out the seemingly 'quick sale' woman to date?

 

I'm not a salesperson. I was while I was a student or during the summers to make money. I'm actually an engineer. I think it takes me a long while for me to break down and say this person is the person I want for ever and ever. It's tough. I doubted whether my ex was the best option for me a lot at the beginning. It's probably the unconscious reason why we broke up. I probably felt I could do better and didn't want to have to go any longer. My ex probably kept it going because she felt she couldn't get better than me, I figure. It's a good question, but I think after this first relationship, I realize there's more to love than attraction, personality and sex. You have to be in synchrony with the other person, you have to look beyond the imperfections and enjoy their flaws and laugh at them sometimes, you have to really be stronger than the sum of the two people in all aspects. So, I think I'm learning to cherish all of this and be more open-minded and have the right questions to ask in prospective women, and it'll make me better for it in the end.

 

You put it down to certain of your childhood events but, unless anything in your childhood was very extreme compared to the norm, it won't have affected your personality and modus operandum. It could, then, just be your natural personality to care "too much" which then makes you have to operate like a control freak (and also would have you having this freakery in common with a more full-on commitmentphobic). But caring too much has it's wonderful side. So can't you just accept the downside for the sake of the benefits?

 

I care too much, to a fault, that makes me a control freak. My dad was a control freak. He would hit if you stepped outside of the normal travelling path to enter the living room, because you would then see the footprints. I'm a weird person. I'm very solitary and internal in groups of 2 or 3 or alone, but very social and open in larger groups. I have two different ways of acting when I'm in a good mood or a bad mood. I can be very emotional, or I can decide to be as cold as ice and not let anything affect me. It's all on how I am that day or what's going on around me. I know, it's something I have to control. So, I think somedays I fear commitment, and other days I don't, funny enough as it is.

 

Again, thanks for the post. I really do learn a lot from this back and forth interaction, as a learning process and as a means of getting what I really want...

[Nattersmatter]

Oh, I beg to differ over the need to apologise. Just because we're on a forum where no-one can see our faces, that's no reason not to keep up standards and manners, is it? ("Spit-spot!" LOL).

 

Yes, thanks, son is on the mend now, save for the hacking cough practically all night long. I didn't even get to bed Thursday night (grough!). But apparently a whacking great third of his school, pupils and teachers, have been off with it (sore throat, dizziness (where the room spins), temperature, cough) so, if you're a Brit - watch out and don't burn your candle at both ends for a while!

 

Commitmentphobic styles: From what I can see, there's this subtle difference, causally: I think you have a "love monster" with powerful suckers for hands and feet inside you which you cannot afford to unleash willy-nilly - because it's an extreme feat to get it to UN-sucker and quickly enough should you ever need to (like lately). Accordingly, you try to see deep into the person to some sorts of signs to guarantee you won't ever have to. (That might explain, subconscious-agenda-wise, why you sampled sales for a while - to learn how to more quickly and deeply read people?) I think when you met ex, you must have been in an uncharacteristic state of abandonment...a (for you) rash frame of mind. So your particular over-caution is down to wariness over unleashing such over-strong, "irreversible" desire. Hers, on the other hand, is about fear of having to EVER unleash...fear of going there full-stop, because she "WILL" just end up hurt, meaning an INABILITY to unleash it. Subtle difference but - can you see it? "Too much" desire versus "too much" fear.

 

Some people deal with that fear by never getting into a relationship full-stop. Some with never letting a relationship go beyond x weeks or months. Others by ensuring a certain distance never gets closed. The fear is too strong to ignore and not operate by.

 

Some people deal with that fear of unleashing their huge desire by never getting into a relationship full-stop. Some with never letting a relationship go beyond x weeks or months. Others by ensuring a certain distance never gets closed. But fear of unleashing huge desire isn't a PRIMARY cause, plus the fact you HAVE that enormity of desire is itself too encouraging to never enter a relationship or never at least try to make it work... because you sense that if you've got that desire, you surely can't be the only one. This makes you merely overly picky and on the look out for whomever elusively strikes you as being the same (which sadly you can be fooled about by someone who's post-traumatic and uncharacteristically intense at the outset only before reverting more to their type). She'd be looking for someone who had the same fear with whom to never have to get especially close-up and intense with, perhaps on the look-out for behaviours in common with herself as symptomatic proof of it - like (ta-daa!) impetuosity.

 

See the error of misidentification in the first instance that had got you into this mess, Stanley?

 

So this is why you should wait until you've done a very thorough test-drive of the gene and personality vehicle... one that goes BEYOND the initial Honeymoon Heroin hit to where they begin reverting more to their natural type - just like a car may not show a fault unless it's done a certain mileage under certain various conditions (a bumpy road or one with loads of cornering). But the test drive demands that you get genuinely attached meanwhile (or it isn't a true experiment/expedition), meaning, you're possibly still going to end up hurt (disillusioned and disappointed) to a certain degree, as an unavoidable outcome. That is the price you pay for the test-drive. Don't want to risk it? Don't get IN that vehicle and stay a pedestrian or taxi customer or car-hire customer.

 

But disappointment shows you're - fact - on the right track! So even disappointment has it's silver lining, right? Also, practise at handling disappointment faster and more efficiently, makes perfect.

 

 

Engineering, eh? AND the art of sales (commerce-based acting)? "To excel in the arts or engineering, a dash of Autism is essential" (Hans Asperger). Hans ("takes one to know (identify) ones") must have been touch of Aspergic himself - hence fell for the usual "This OR That", Black-and-White thinking. Actually, you can have or be some of BOTH.

 

You probably invested too much in your temporary job in sales and winning each sale, as well, hence took any incident of "failure" too much to heart and like it was personal... hence the black mood pit out of which it was difficult to climb and which interfered with your otherwise run of successes.

 

Is a Black mood interfering with this erstwhile re-selling attempt, too (getting back ex)? And are you still too much in that mood to be capable of trusting your instinctual-based senses regarding likely success with newbie? If you are, the answer is simple: recognise you take longer to come out of any mood and TAKE that time, and just accept that you would have to forego the new 'sales' opportunity with newbie. Or, alternatively, use this opportunity for gritting your teeth and performing DESPITE your mood so that you can add this as a new personal skill to your Adult Skills Toolbelt and 'do a Gary Barlow/Take That' and tantamountedly sing, 'Have a little patience' at her. Yes, indeedie - some people are actually HONEST to a newbie about how fragile they're going to still be for a wee while yet. Again - can understand = will deal with/tolerate. Honesty in a man about feelings and fears is very refreshingly impressive to a woman; what DOESN'T impress and does the opposite, is when the man allows those fears to take over the show and ruin it whilst imparting nothing about how vulnerable and wobbly he still is. ...to a woman who's mature and ready for the ultimate relationship, I mean. Sure, she's looking for a hero but a hero doesn't mean a man who denies his humanity and its emotions, it means a man brave enough to do so and not let those fears control either him or their relationship together. Diff/diff. ...but "you men" (LOL) always fall down where failing to dare to ask questions about any so-called particularly personally-affecting fact is concerned (- take dangly size, for example - it's NOT length that matters, it's *width*!).

 

You can't hold BOTH hands, though, and I'll tell you why: imagine attachment gets established via invisible tentacles. For a relationship to stand a chance at succeeding, you've got to have enough tentacles taking grip (or plugging into) onto the other person (and vice versa) whilst the others are at least 'facing' in that direction awaiting their cue. With half your attachment-ready tentacles embedded into ex and the other half embedded into newbie, and half the waiting ones facing ex and the other half facing newbie, the result is going to be UNDER-ATTACHMENT to either, meaning lose/lose, guaranteed.

 

Choose your target. These tentacles will follow suit.

 

 

BTW - ex mega-SULKS with her own father and says things like, 'I've got LOADS of men after me, mleugh' and you say she's not immature? PFFFF - y'er 'avin a LARF, incha?! It isn't "frosty", it's CAREFULLY, SELF-PROTECTIVELY DISTANT (probably for all three of them). So I rest me case, M'lud.

 

 

Where opening up to a newbie is concerned, (bar the first three dates) you don't WAIT for the appropriate moment. You treat it like an information tap. You start with turning it on a tiny bit (where it just drips)... wait to see the reaction... adapt to living with that reaction, and then turn the tap up a little higher to a trickle .....aaaand repeat - until the tap is on full and there's no call for ever turning it down or off again. So offhand comment becomes hint becomes deeper hint becomes full confession (and by doing this you encourage the same out of her). The All in All Or Nothing doesn't have to mean INSTANTLY All.

 

Alternatively, DO turn the disclosure/confessions tap full on (you're a man, you don't have to be quite so 'mysterious') but do it with confidence, e.g., 'I can sometimes be a right moody git; you wait until you see it - it's really funny...Oh, and by the way, you have my permission to kick me in the shin if ever I get like that... so THAT'S something to look forward to, isn't it...008, licensed to kick? LOL'. If you're okay about it, she'll be okay about it.

 

My own method was the incrementing hints leading up to the full confession (because so was his).

 

 

I don't call justifiably loudly ticking off a careless driver, cold, actually. Cold people just don't do that. Nor normally do early 20-year-olds. I thinks she thinks she likewise has to be careful but oops-FORGOT under that sudden duress. I think she's very hot... very passionate, AND has the confidence to show it even in public. And it also indicates you're 'hers' already as far as she's concerned, ergo it was her job to step up and protect you because you yourself were out of action at that precise moment (tick!). And then, she didn't IGNORE your reaction, she "said" as a response to your face - 'What of it? - it's perfectly fine and natural.' (And she's right - it is.) So that shows confidence, too.

 

It's not a momentums thing. She won't forget.

 

As for you: what are you doing visiting an old FWB? REMEMBER THE TENTACLES. Spilt milk now but - do NOT sleep with her!!! Don't even snog her!

 

 

Some days you have more pressing things to worry about than fear and commitment, some days you don't. Berbom. (I'm "weird", too. It's great, isn't it?! So that's how two commitmentphobes can temporarily abandon themselves further than they ordinarily might - they were too distracted by other more at-the-time-weighty concerns AND because they were under the influence of the initial, most impactful Honeymoon Heroin hit. So DON'T go crazy under the mere scent of a vehicle's interior leather, DRIVE THE DAMN THING and drive it properly and for miles and over every type of terrain available. (Or in your case, spend more time inspecting the thing for signs (like worn tyres) before you then get in.)

 

You don't need a back-up plan or person. You just need to know you're fine whenever you have to be on your own and independent for a while. In other words, you are your own back-up plan. And what helps with this is having faith that there are just too many fish, too many of whom will be your own breed, out there for you to EVER manage never to again hook up with someone else.

 

(That's as much as I have time for right now but I might add some things if need be, later or tomorrow.)

[nookbridge]

Oh, I beg to differ over the need to apologise. Just because we're on a forum where no-one can see our faces, that's no reason not to keep up standards and manners, is it? ("Spit-spot!" LOL).

 

You're not the Canadian, eh. I should be the apologizer. But I accept, no worries!

 

Yes, thanks, son is on the mend now, save for the hacking cough practically all night long. I didn't even get to bed Thursday night (grough!). But apparently a whacking great third of his school, pupils and teachers, have been off with it (sore throat, dizziness (where the room spins), temperature, cough) so, if you're a Brit - watch out and don't burn your candle at both ends for a while!

 

Did you manage the dodge the flu bullet? Weather up there has been so up and down, no wonder it's circulating now! Hopefully a weekend's rest will cure all ails!

 

Commitmentphobic styles: From what I can see, there's this subtle difference, causally: I think you have a "love monster" with powerful suckers for hands and feet inside you which you cannot afford to unleash willy-nilly - because it's an extreme feat to get it to UN-sucker and quickly enough should you ever need to (like lately). Accordingly, you try to see deep into the person to some sorts of signs to guarantee you won't ever have to. (That might explain, subconscious-agenda-wise, why you sampled sales for a while - to learn how to more quickly and deeply read people?) I think when you met ex, you must have been in an uncharacteristic state of abandonment...a (for you) rash frame of mind. So your particular over-caution is down to wariness over unleashing such over-strong, "irreversible" desire. Hers, on the other hand, is about fear of having to EVER unleash...fear of going there full-stop, because she "WILL" just end up hurt, meaning an INABILITY to unleash it. Subtle difference but - can you see it? "Too much" desire versus "too much" fear.

 

Some people deal with that fear by never getting into a relationship full-stop. Some with never letting a relationship go beyond x weeks or months. Others by ensuring a certain distance never gets closed. The fear is too strong to ignore and not operate by.

 

Some people deal with that fear of unleashing their huge desire by never getting into a relationship full-stop. Some with never letting a relationship go beyond x weeks or months. Others by ensuring a certain distance never gets closed.

 

Sales was done as a means to make some money only on the side while I was at school or on summer's break. Only job you could find at the time! I'm actually really lazy to reading what people say, and more into seeing people's body language. I'll dissect what you say hours later, but I focus on how someone is with me. I've got warmer culture habits, and I like to touch people, and sometimes that gets me to calibrate where people are too. I do listen to people, but I don't space out and start reading stuff. It's tough to un-suck the love monster, but I sure as heck did it quickly when I broke up in the first place! But yes, I get it. I guess I got my ex to fall in love so quickly by the time that trigger to back away came in, she already was in love and was past the point of no return. And for me, I have to be more careful when I fall in love so that when I get sucked in, it's with my eyes wide open (like you say later)!

 

See the error of misidentification in the first instance that had got you into this mess, Stanley?

 

Yes. Uffffff.

 

So this is why you should wait until you've done a very thorough test-drive of the gene and personality vehicle... one that goes BEYOND the initial Honeymoon Heroin hit to where they begin reverting more to their natural type - just like a car may not show a fault unless it's done a certain mileage under certain various conditions (a bumpy road or one with loads of cornering). But the test drive demands that you get genuinely attached meanwhile (or it isn't a true experiment/expedition), meaning, you're possibly still going to end up hurt (disillusioned and disappointed) to a certain degree, as an unavoidable outcome. That is the price you pay for the test-drive. Don't want to risk it? Don't get IN that vehicle and stay a pedestrian or taxi customer or car-hire customer.

 

It might take forever, then. I have that high for a long, long time. Most people do, no? I did see my ex's tendencies relatively early on, and she mentioned her issues (exes, family, conflictive personality from youth), but not like you say later on, as watch out for this, or that, but yea, here are my secrets. If she said, look out for this or that, I probably would've been more sympathetic or on guard. This is not to pass the blame onto her, I'm just stating the obvious. I overlooked this stuff too because I was in love. And I don't like having the door open like that either. I'm a one-woman guy, and I like to think that my prospective partner would be too. Test-drive without exclusivity sounds, I don't know, risky. But I guess what you're going to say is that I should trust my partner to care enough about me to focus on me anyways. And she could always go off anyways.

 

But disappointment shows you're - fact - on the right track! So even disappointment has it's silver lining, right? Also, practise at handling disappointment faster and more efficiently, makes perfect.

 

I don't have a short term memory. I let things linger for a long time, especially failure, and I take rejection to heart. Point noted.

 

You probably invested too much in your temporary job in sales and winning each sale, as well, hence took any incident of "failure" too much to heart and like it was personal... hence the black mood pit out of which it was difficult to climb and which interfered with your otherwise run of successes.

 

When you fail 95% of the time, it takes a beating on the soul. That's why going up to women should be easier. At my approximate rate of 1 in 4, it shouldn't hurt, but I know they don't like me for who I am, and not maybe the product or them being in a bad mood. Losing sucks, I'm competitive and I hate it.

 

Is a Black mood interfering with this erstwhile re-selling attempt, too (getting back ex)?

 

Yes, and the fact that it is a very high mountain to climb, and when I reach the top, there might not be gold. I don't know if we'll have the same chemistry as before, or she will find that spark, that feeling, as intensely as before to stay with me. They say there's no pride in love, but she will get a kick of me trying to get her back. She loves mentioning how her ex kept coming back as a source of pride. I don't like giving her that feeling. This is a bad excuse, I know.

 

And are you still too much in that mood to be capable of trusting your instinctual-based senses regarding likely success with newbie?

 

No, because when I see her, I see with new eyes. She's not my ex. I just don't want the old habits to kick in and swerve me in a bad direction to qualifying new girl correctly or incorrectly (again, still very early days). Plus, she's accepted me, not rejected me.

 

Yes, indeedie - some people are actually HONEST to a newbie about how fragile they're going to still be for a wee while yet. Again - can understand = will deal with/tolerate. Honesty in a man about feelings and fears is very refreshingly impressive to a woman; what DOESN'T impress and does the opposite, is when the man allows those fears to take over the show and ruin it whilst imparting nothing about how vulnerable and wobbly he still is. ...to a woman who's mature and ready for the ultimate relationship, I mean. Sure, she's looking for a hero but a hero doesn't mean a man who denies his humanity and its emotions, it means a man brave enough to do so and not let those fears control either him or their relationship together. Diff/diff. ...but "you men" (LOL) always fall down where failing to dare to ask questions about any so-called particularly personally-affecting fact is concerned (- take dangly size, for example - it's NOT length that matters, it's *width*!).

 

Point noted.

 

You can't hold BOTH hands, though, and I'll tell you why: imagine attachment gets established via invisible tentacles. For a relationship to stand a chance at succeeding, you've got to have enough tentacles taking grip (or plugging into) onto the other person (and vice versa) whilst the others are at least 'facing' in that direction awaiting their cue. With half your attachment-ready tentacles embedded into ex and the other half embedded into newbie, and half the waiting ones facing ex and the other half facing newbie, the result is going to be UNDER-ATTACHMENT to either, meaning lose/lose, guaranteed.

 

Nod of the head.

 

BTW - ex mega-SULKS with her own father and says things like, 'I've got LOADS of men after me, mleugh' and you say she's not immature? PFFFF - y'er 'avin a LARF, incha?! It isn't "frosty", it's CAREFULLY, SELF-PROTECTIVELY DISTANT (probably for all three of them). So I rest me case, M'lud.

 

Her words more insinuate that lots of men approach her to chat her up than loads of men are after me. I guess you're going to come up and give the old saying, girls want attention, women want respect. She never mega-sulked with me, though, and I don't like taking shots like that at her. With me, she was largely on her best behaviour to keep up with me, but she had her moments too of stupidity. I'm immature too. I don't necessarily always get on best with my mom. Re: lots of men chatting her up, she should be well-served and moved on from me in Mach III speed, but I guess she's using as currency to feel better about herself, at the present moment. But, whatever...

 

Where opening up to a newbie is concerned, (bar the first three dates) you don't WAIT for the appropriate moment. You treat it like an information tap. You start with turning it on a tiny bit (where it just drips)... wait to see the reaction... adapt to living with that reaction, and then turn the tap up a little higher to a trickle .....aaaand repeat - until the tap is on full and there's no call for ever turning it down or off again. So offhand comment becomes hint becomes deeper hint becomes full confession (and by doing this you encourage the same out of her). The All in All Or Nothing doesn't have to mean INSTANTLY All.

 

Point noted. I'll wait until we have one or two more dates, or if the mood feels alright this week.

 

Alternatively, DO turn the disclosure/confessions tap full on (you're a man, you don't have to be quite so 'mysterious') but do it with confidence, e.g., 'I can sometimes be a right moody git; you wait until you see it - it's really funny...Oh, and by the way, you have my permission to kick me in the shin if ever I get like that... so THAT'S something to look forward to, isn't it...008, licensed to kick? LOL'. If you're okay about it, she'll be okay about it.

 

It works with my friends. I tell them this all the time, only problem is they won't bite me when I go off the handle...

 

I don't call justifiably loudly ticking off a careless driver, cold, actually. Cold people just don't do that. Nor normally do early 20-year-olds. I thinks she thinks she likewise has to be careful but oops-FORGOT under that sudden duress. I think she's very hot... very passionate, AND has the confidence to show it even in public. And it also indicates you're 'hers' already as far as she's concerned, ergo it was her job to step up and protect you because you yourself were out of action at that precise moment (tick!). And then, she didn't IGNORE your reaction, she "said" as a response to your face - 'What of it? - it's perfectly fine and natural.' (And she's right - it is.) So that shows confidence, too.

 

I think so too. Which is what made me laugh to myself. She hides her cards close to the chest, trying to give little signs of interest (or those that I see), and she does that in one big heap. In the beginning it's a bit of a game too, no? Some of you women really love to see if our interest is real...

 

As for you: what are you doing visiting an old FWB? REMEMBER THE TENTACLES. Spilt milk now but - do NOT sleep with her!!! Don't even snog her!

 

I haven't been to Paris, and she's a FRIEND first. I'm pretty sure that unless both of us get really drunk, nothing is going to happen.

 

You don't need a back-up plan or person. You just need to know you're fine whenever you have to be on your own and independent for a while. In other words, you are your own back-up plan. And what helps with this is having faith that there are just too many fish, too many of whom will be your own breed, out there for you to EVER manage never to again hook up with someone else.

 

So much selection it's hard to pick the right one for you that you know will be great in a relationship. That's the problem... but you're right. I have to be whole for myself to be ok in a relationship.

 

On a tangent, I saw my ex last night, at the same club I saw her two weeks. I don't know if she's seen me either time, now. The first time, two days after my bday, she was chatting with a guy, and I only noticed as I went to grab my coat that it was her. Walking out and past her, I got a rush of blood to the head and swang my arm and hit her arm as I was walking by (I'm a doofus, sometimes). I didn't look back to see if she noticed or not, but she replied to the messages I sent, so probably not. Last night, I was trying to find new girl who was supposed to be around with friends, I look around and see if I can find her on the dance floor, and I see the tall figure of who can only be my ex in the far corner. I stood in the corner texting for a few minutes, but I obviously couldn't help to peek at her. She doesn't particularly like to dance, or made excuses not to with me, but she was sure dancing with some fervour last night, at one moment dancing up suggestively on what looked like an ugly, 40-something guy (My mind - "wow, I never thought I would have that my image in my head ever"). And plus she was dancing to music she hates. Woo hoo single life! I think deep down she's suffering, but that's only between us. But I'm not so sure cares more about losing out in love, or the fact that she has no clue what she's going to do with her life, considering she has a ****e job now and her preferred job in her home country isn't possible eiether. Bah, whatever... Off tangent

 

(That's as much as I have time for right now but I might add some things if need be, later or tomorrow.)

 

Alright, thanks for this ;-) I hope I'm not interrupting the flow with my reply...

[Nattersmatter]

Never automatically believe what you merely think you think. You have more than just one thinking part to your mind. The conscious portion - the part you can 'hear' - is the new kid on the block; it just THINKS it's der boss (pfff!). This means, despite you THOUGHT it was just a Hobson's Choice job, if you think about it more rationally you'll appreciate it's highly illogical to claim that in any large geographical area there was only ONE suitable job open to you..., Captain. We're also by now extremely efficient animals so any choice we make has to satisfying a NUMBER of aims. You see this psychology being manipulated in the supermaket: the BOGOF: "Buy one, get one free". In fact, lately, it's buy one get TWO free. So I imagine because the sales job was 'there and waiting' AND it satisfied your subconscious awareness over needing to improve your skill at reading SANS body language (tone language - both verbal and written), you went for it and solved your resultant confusion over why you weren't leaving yourself open for longer regards other options, by telling yourself it was the "only" job going or that you'd be accepted for. We'll take the "MacSolution" rather than stay in the dark, scratching our heads.

 

...which was a very long-winded way of saying, 'Stop arguing in der first instance (save your energy) - I duz know more dan you duz' LOL LOL. (I'll let you slap me later.)

 

(Here - little experiment: instead of saying Uffff - which is semi-repressive in terms of letting go of excess disappointment - try PHOOOOOOO.)

 

It might take forever, then. I have that high for a long, long time. Most people do, no?

 

Keep your distance (from the chemical reactivity) until you're more sure you even WANT to become glued to this vehicle. Check them out (pertinent questions, observations) BEFORE you sit in the driver's seat and start the engine. And then do the same as you start but idle the engine. Remember your priorities: an impressive looking car isn't going to look or feel very impressive on the back of an AA Rescue truck. If you can't do this, you're just going to have to accept that every search expedition is going to likely mean a bit of pain at the end of it. Suffer enough of any one type of pain, however, and you soon enough become pretty impervious to it. And even before that point, any expedition could be the very last time you suffer that pain... meaning, it's pain sufferance towards gaining a life devoid of any more of that particular pain.

 

When you fail 95% of the time, it takes a beating on the soul.

 

Not when you remember it's just a numbers game but with success inevitable if you TAKE enough pain. Think childbirth. Every period of pain is not "another". It is ONE LESS out of the total: "Oh, good - one more contraction done. I'm closer than I was before". There IS no Success without Failure!

 

Oh, there would be gold! It may not be the gold YOU were expecting but there will be gold.

 

I'm going to suggest you cease thinking in terms of Success and Failure and replace those with Like and Dislike. It should help.

 

She loves mentioning how her ex kept coming back as a source of pride. I don't like giving her that feeling. This is a bad excuse, I know

 

No, actually, it's a correct reason. Because what you're saying is, there was no love on her part, just ego. You can't make a relationship for life out of just ego hunger. You've nodded your head but you've avoided making the choice. So, then - Mr One Woman - *choose* your one woman. If you're aiming your arrow at two target boards simultaneously, you're going to hit just air in the middle and no bullseye, aren't you.

 

Your "old habits" may not have been a problem in themselves. All my "faults" as taken as such by my ex are what my husband sees as pleasures and strengths, and vice versa: Right Personality and Behaviour, WRONG RECIPIENT, now correct recipient. You have to take this time to sort out in your mind whether EVERYONE would deem certain of your attitudes and behaviours as faults or whether they were only subjectively so. If there *are* any genuine faults and they are behavioural, sure - improve them. If not, don't; be yourself so that "another yourself" can find you 90% charming. Replay the 'tape' and ask yourself, Would I have disliked that if on the receiving end?, Would anyone have disliked it?, and same goes for her traits and behaviour.

 

She never mega-sulked with me, though, and I don't like taking shots like that at her.

 

Rubbish. What's she doing now, then?! (Stop it - my sides...!!!

 

Women want to *do something* with the attention. The attention is a means to an end, not an end in itself. And BECAUSE they do something with it, they then need respect in order that it can continue *being done*.

 

It's not 'taking shots'. It's just telling it like it is. Certainly like it is when the recipient is you in particular. Wrong recipient, then, eh.

 

I tell them this all the time, only problem is they won't bite me when I go off the handle...

 

Well, then, that's excellent news! You're simply looking for one of them but with boobs! How hard is THAT going to be? They exist already, they like you already, you already like them already, you know how they tick, and how they tick in relation to how you tick... now imagine one of them is a (to you) sexy woman? Easy-peasy-orange-squeezy. You know your type - use them as your frame of reference and if she doesn't match - ditch and "neext!". Seriously - imagine you're very familiar with a certain Mercedes model and are looking for a similar car but by a different manufacturer? How easy is that inspection and test-drive going to BE?!

 

She hides her cards close to the chest, trying to give little signs of interest (or those that I see), and she does that in one big heap. In the beginning it's a bit of a game too, no? Some of you women really love to see if our interest is real...

 

Women, yes. Girls, no.

 

I haven't been to Paris, and she's a FRIEND first. I'm pretty sure that unless both of us get really drunk, nothing is going to happen.

 

You don't sh*g your friends. She's not a friend. She's a lover you behave like friends with, diff/all the diff. The solution is simple: DO NOT GET DRUNK. Self-Discipline. It's the decision to BE self-disciplined that takes the most determination, not the being itself. That part's easy.

 

This new woman likes you, it's obvious. Don't cheat on her right from the off. Start as you mean to go on. You're laying a foundation so that you can build a lasting house atop it. Put flimsy rubbish in your foundation and any house built atop it is going to fall down - guaranteed... it's only a matter of time. Make that foundation true and solid or DON'T claim you're wanting a lifetime house.

 

You don't have to be 'whole', you just have to be aware and appreciative. You're NOT whole - you're half a jigsaw piece in a two-piece picture, looking for your 'Yang'. If you were whole, you wouldn't need a relationship in the first place, meaning you wouldn't marry and replicate yourself before you died..... Specie extinction! Just appreciate everything about your 'half'.

 

Course ex saw you. Women have 'eyes in the back of their head' (and a nose). So do men, actually, but they're less aware they do. Course she saw you.

 

And you're supposed to be a doofuss sometimes. Being part doofuss is touching as well as reassuring to a woman who loves you. They'll make almost any excuse for you if they love you. Just don't be a doofuss MOST of the time. Easy-peasy.

 

Yeah - woo-hoo single life. Being single has its vital purposes when not taken to extreme but... put it this way: no-one sends you a card saying, 'Congratulations on your singledom!', do they.

 

Course she's suffering. But it's about what she's choosing to DO with that suffering, isn't it.

 

Here - did you find yourself watching her and comparing her in your mind to newbie?

 

Nah... not 'off-tangent'. You seeing her naked, finally. "The emperor has no clothes!"

 

Good sign.

 

Nope - not interrupting the flow. It's your flow. And I'm not even telling you anything you don't deeper down know. I'm just hearing that deeper-down voice and repeating it back to you. That's all I mean by, I know more than you do. And that's probably why you think I'm so clever and impressive. ;-)

 

(Immature my a*se. PTHTH!)

 

xoxo

 

PS: Yes, thanks, son is better, I'm okay, sun's shining (blimey!!)... just short on time. And no, I'm not Canadian (stop gloating, LOL).

[nookbridge]

I think what I'm learning is that I become attached pretty quickly too. Maybe out of low self-esteem, or desperation, or fear of rejection/abandonment. Or all of them.

 

 

 

It's not just my choice. New girl's interest has cooled. I spoke with her on the phone a week ago, and we tried to make plans for another date. She said, well, I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks in 10 days and I have lots of things to do and I want to see all my friends before I go, so I don't know. My reply: well, can you try to make a few hours for me one of these days, and let me know? Since then, no sign of life from her. If she had real interest, I think she opens up a date for me. I think I have to move away from this one. I'll let you know what my therapist had to say to me this afternoon below about my ex...

 

 

 

Good point...

 

 

 

Yes. But is she really sulking? Or has she moved on?

 

 

 

Real, as in, making sure we keeping going ahead with confidence, see how much attention we give and relate it to good intentions or shag and out, etc. Still true?

 

 

 

I won't. Trust me. My head is not in a good place to deal with any more confusion.

 

 

 

I'm not so sure.

 

 

 

But you also have to realize that you're ok without getting married, no? Enjoy life with someone else more than alone... if not, alone stays you.

 

 

 

I was there for less than 3 minutes, according to my messages from that night. Other end of the dance floor, about 6 metres away. 10-15 people between us. I don't know.

 

 

 

Never thought you would condone me brushing by her at the club and not turn around.

 

 

 

But male female friends tend to celebrate it as if it were freedom cards.

 

 

 

What do you mean by this? I didn't get it... I think the funny thing is that I still want this woman in my life, but it's probably the incorrect decision to take to pursue reconciliation. I have the feeling she hasn't improved through the whole grieving process, although I don't know. I've learned a whole host of things, and some of them is that maybe I selected an incorrect mate as I see her now. It makes things so hard... rrrr......

 

 

 

Not at all. I compare every woman equally, to what my tastes are, how I perceive them to be before approaching them, etc.. In an honest to goodness assessment, I would've said "humm, tall, attractive, tanned, nice legs, lots of attitude, dancing to get laid, maybe doesn't have that much self-respect." But my heart was obviously beating hard, I was not indifferent.

 

 

 

I don't think that's really true. I look at things a different way, a way my squared head won't allow me to see.

 

 

 

Huh?

 

Ok, so I went and visited my therapist today (I read your reply in the office, by the way). We talked about the back-and-forth conversation with my ex, and usually, my therapist doesn't say one way or another, what she thinks is true. Today, she was pretty clear about what she though. She said, yep, your ex has closure. My ex made it more than crystal clear that she only wants to know how you are doing and did not want to meet you. If she was open to anything, she would've met you and after cancelling, she would've set a new date. Instead, she tried to assert her stance repeatedly and bluntly. I don't want contact with you other than to know how you are doing. She initially was angry in all other correspondence up to now, and now she seems to be calm, confident and in a good place and knowing what she wants. The small talk she initiated afterwards was probably to reinforce, I will only talk to you as a normal person.

 

This hit me pretty hard, as you can imagine. I initially thought this to be true, you know. So my mind is all over the place. I asked my therapist, why then, would she contact me twice in a week. She had no answer, but you can't discard that, heck, she genuinely cares you because she has a good heart. I have to own up to it, obviously, but my therapist says, if you want to fully move on and love and be loved, you need to get your closure. Send the cease and desist message, write the goodbye letter to yourself, and burn it, etc., or else I'll just be in an endless loop coming back for something that doesn't exist. You have to realize she's not coming back. She doesn't want to see you = I don't want you to be a lover in my life. But it's so hard to abandon what my heart feels... and I have this suspicion she's going to come back, be it in a month, 2 months, 6 months with the same message looking for something from me. What do you think? I say send the cease and desist message to my ex, and see the reaction. If there's any fooling around going on, she will react like she did with the FB restriction stuff and will want to meet up. If she's got closure, well, I'll know for sure, and I'll be ok with the end (so long as I own up to it...).

 

And I also realize now, more than ever, that I should've sent the letter I was planning to send in December to her asking for reconciliation. I'm an idiot. I waited too long...

[rosasnyder811]

If you want her back, stop with the ridiculous NC mind game. It's doing nothing but stroking her ego and making you nuts. One of you has to draw the line and make it stop and you're the only one that can do it since she is the one playing the game.

You cannot play games to get an ex back, it simply doesn't work. If you manage to get her back, your relationship will be based on manipulation and games, and that isn't exactly healthy. You need to stand up to her.

You never know what the future will hold, but right now you also look weak to her, which is why she isn't committing. She knows that all she has to do is break contact and you will respond and start giving her what she needs (showing her you still care.)

She has to know that this is not okay anymore, and the only way you can do this is through contact.

[nookbridge]

Hi Rosa! Thanks for your post! I agree that NC can be a mind game. In my case, my ex asked me to give her time and space, but contact was regularly initiated, largely by her after the request. I wanted to leave her alone to respect her wishes, to get separation from her to reflect and heal, and deal with my personal issues (refer to all the replies before, I didn't treat my ex very well and I had outstanding issues to address!). She opened up communication 3 weeks ago now, asking me how I was doing after 2 months or so of NC. I ignored it because I couldn't make sense of the purpose behind the message. She tried to call on my bday and from there, there was form of contact back and forth between the two of us. I should've, probably now in hind sight, done something more proactive. I did try to get her back three times post-BU prior, but without success.

[nookbridge]

Let's just say for the record, I am a blobbering mess of emotions. It feels like September and October all over again. Spontaneously crying in public. Ruing all the stupid mistakes. A huge desire to walk up to her and lay it all on the line. Man, it feels like my mom, grandpa, my cat and dog all died at once today. All over someone telling me, get a grip, she's not coming back and get closure so you can heal now! (Also, doesn't help seeing an adolescent photo of her on FB, all adorable, with her first cat - a photo which she showed me days after our BU!) I'm finding it so hard to say goodbye forever. How stupid was I to let someone I truly loved with all my heart go, and how stupid was I to treat her the way I did. Ok, emotional rant over!

[Nattersmatter]

I think what I'm learning is that I become attached pretty quickly too. Maybe out of low self-esteem, or desperation, or fear of rejection/abandonment. Or all of them.

 

Or maybe simply you love feeling majorly turned on both mentally and physically for a woman and have a high sex drive?

 

But the reason is less important than what you do about it, which is learning to measure yourself a little. Not so that the woman can tell you're holding back - you don't want to ruin it by coming accross the opposite - closed-up and over-guarded. But take everything she says and does as well as what YOU say and do with a little pinch of salt... until the signs have all come in to say it's SAFE to really let go. Simple as that.

 

 

It's not just my choice. New girl's interest has cooled. I spoke with her on the phone a week ago, and we tried to make plans for another date. She said, well, I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks in 10 days and I have lots of things to do and I want to see all my friends before I go, so I don't know. My reply: well, can you try to make a few hours for me one of these days, and let me know? Since then, no sign of life from her. If she had real interest, I think she opens up a date for me. I think I have to move away from this one. I'll let you know what my therapist had to say to me this afternoon below about my ex...

 

That doesn't sound too encouraging, no. It also doesn't tally with her having a go at the careless motorist. So what has happened between then and now? Is it loss of interest or is she just being sensible in that she doesn't want to turn up the heat right before she goes away and thereby ruin her holiday by feeling deprived of you?

 

You said WE tried to make plans. Doesn't that mean she was unkeen only where the When was concerned?

 

Yes. But is she really sulking? Or has she moved on?

 

What is the difference when a sulk is so over-long thus so damaging that it seamlessly becomes moving on, anyway? A normal sulk is when the person comes round. Hers is a mega-sulk where she may never come round or not not on your timeline. She'll be useless to you once she does, I reckon. And even then you wouldn't want her back if her false pride means so much more to her than love.

 

You don't want her back, anyway. You were "doing" kinda sorta long before you articulated it, anyway. Take your ridiculous excuse about not wanting to use your Saturdays. Sorry, but it was. Nuff said.

 

Real, as in, making sure we keeping going ahead with confidence, see how much attention we give and relate it to good intentions or shag and out, etc. Still true?

 

Yup. There are certain easy-enough actions that belong BOTH to one who values you as a sh*gging partner and one who values you as a boyfriend/future husband. But then there are sustained and irreversible actions that NO FWB-seeker would do. If one isn't trying to dupe oneself, the differences are perfectly easy to discern.

 

I won't. Trust me. My head is not in a good place to deal with any more confusion.

 

Oh, I trust you and your powers of sensible reasoning, HOWEVER...what I trust is your word 'right now' being true, a statement made whilst the woman isn't in front of you with her cleavage spilling out and hand on your knee. What about then?

 

I'm not so sure.

 

That's right - you're NOT sure that this woman does or doesn't like you enough to want to keep seeing you; you haven't had enough evidence one way or the other yet. You've had her reacting 'prematurely' protectively and possessively (bawling out a bad driver who nearly knocked you over) AND you've had her being unable WITH PLAUSIBLE REASONS to fit you in when only 10 days away from a major holiday AND obviously having been willing to consider if not actually able when it came down to the diary details (reference "WE tried"). I call that 60/40 still in your favour, myself. And for your information, I myself have been in that very position and it *hasn't* meant I wasn't still keen. If I wasn't keen, I'd let him hear one or two reasons that were so pathetic as to be illogical and ridiculous, so that he would be forced to get the hint. (In fact, I wouldn't - I'd be straight... but you get my gist regarding what I COULD most easily do, yes?) So don't go reacting as if you have got definitive evidence against, or - how are you going to feel and act like if, when she gets back, she's on the phone proving you were too rash in your negative conclusion? Do you really want to be gazing romantically into her eyes some point soon, knowing you did what turned out to be the dirty on her? With a conscience as big as yours, I doubt that very much.

 

Why don't you take this time in Paris to see how much fun by yourself you can have? You need that. You need to sample yourself and see how contented and stimulated you can keep you. It's called dating yourself and it's GREAT for lowering desperation of either negative or positive type.

 

But you also have to realize that you're ok without getting married, no? Enjoy life with someone else more than alone... if not, alone stays you.

 

Yes. You get married ONLY because you love the person. You don't need them because you've no idea how to work a washing machine. You don't need them because you can't hack your own company. You don't need them because you need another £x per month towards your mortgage. You need them as a result ONLY of loving them and loving being in their almost constant company and feeling like they're your replacement mother, father, brother, uncle, whatever, but especially lover and bestest friend in the world... the one person (aside from yourself) that FEELS LIKE YOURSELF (with two dangles or one dangly), hence doesn't JAR with you. And then when you become accustomed to loving and needing them so much, there's nowhere else to go but Up, with the only next available Up being kids (if you can)... making a new person out of the combination of you and her/him because what you've got between you is so great but is intangible...and it needs making manifest into a tangible. The ultimate goal is you wanting to die with them holding your hand every step of the way, and no-one else (save for your kids). Or vice versa - whoever's time's up first.

 

The practical dependencies of having a teammate (e.g. having someone cook for you, etc.) should come in later, naturally, through habit. But if you have pure love to begin with, if practicals ever change, those changes can't affect your feelings for her/him.

 

That's the ultimate holy grail, albeit life, particularly in today's over-fast-paced world, has a habit of interfering and lowering one's appetite or capacity, meaning you might not be able to operate optimally in an all-round, all-areas fashion unless your relationship is however much less full-on than that.

 

I was there for less than 3 minutes, according to my messages from that night. Other end of the dance floor, about 6 metres away. 10-15 people between us. I don't know.

 

Maybe you need to re-play the tape - the ol' mental CCTV footage - more thoroughly a few more times before you'll spot signs indicating whether she did or didn't?

 

Never thought you would condone me brushing by her at the club and not turn around.

 

I didn't. But - spilt milk. And is as *does* and if you DO hurt that much, having any determination to act counter to animal urges is nigh-on impossible, anyway. You're not a robot, are you. So what would be the point? But hey, if you like that kind of thing, be my guest: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU TW*T!!! (LOL - did that do it for ya?)

 

But male female friends tend to celebrate [singledom] as if it were freedom cards.

 

They would. They have an irrational fear (of "The Big C") to hide, don't they. (LOL - no, not that C, the other C. ;-)) No different to someone who fears swimming in seawater, out with a crowd at the beach, is it? They're BOUND to big up the sand and being dry as if it's superior to being wet and salty. What else are they going to do in a situation where appearing to be manly, aka fearless, is called for? Break down and cry and spill their fears into your lap? There's nothing wrong with being single, though. There's never anything wrong with almost *anything*. It's things taken to the *extreme* that turn good things into bad. Diff/diff.

 

What do you mean by this? I didn't get it... I think the funny thing is that I still want this woman in my life, but it's probably the incorrect decision to take to pursue reconciliation. I have the feeling she hasn't improved through the whole grieving process, although I don't know. I've learned a whole host of things, and some of them is that maybe I selected an incorrect mate as I see her now. It makes things so hard... rrrr......

 

What she's choosing to do with her suffering regarding using it to learn by rather than using it as her motivation to grab the nearest (ugly) man in order to distract herself from everything that's happened and how/why.

 

This is the thing: it's doesn't MATTER if you pursue reconciliation with her and see it come to nothing. The time won't be wasted because it's by our failures alone that we learn - and there is as much to learn by a process that leads to Outcome B as there is Outcome A. Neither does it matter if you decide against. It only 'matters' if deciding against makes you feel 10 times worse IN THE LONG RUN. You'll know if you can sense that'd be the case... you'll find yourself doing it REGARDLESS of this brilliant reason not to or that brilliant reason not to. Suddenly all the brilliant reasons will get twisted into being crap reasons and all the crap reasons will have been converted into brilliant ones. We do what we sense needs to be done and then find all manner of convincing ways to justify it during and after the event. If we waited to see if it was only fear and the waiting made that fear shrink (which is precisely how you can tell between instinct and fear and impure agendas), we can be confident that our inner animals (who were doing this stuff long before How To books were invented) know what they're doing and why.

 

Newsflash: a spider just dropped onto my chest (about the size of a 10 Pence piece) and I had to stand up quick, grab him (I could tell it was a He) and fling him onto the floor! I'm in the Conservatory, see (with the lead piping LOL) and the spiders around here obviously are choosy about what rooms they like to scuttle around in. I'd been feeling this tickling all over my neck and chest and had thought it was my own loose strands of hair so kept brushing it back, ROFL!

 

(Just thought I'd share that with you, LOL. Don't know if it's a sign pertaining to your situation or anything.

 

Not at all. I compare every woman equally, to what my tastes are, how I perceive them to be before approaching them, etc.. In an honest to goodness assessment, I would've said "humm, tall, attractive, tanned, nice legs, lots of attitude, dancing to get laid, maybe doesn't have that much self-respect." But my heart was obviously beating hard, I was not indifferent.

 

Ah. You don't want newbie, either, then. But - just to make sure: was this before or AFTER you and newbie had tried but failed to find a pre-holiday window?

 

I don't think that's really true. I look at things a different way, a way my squared head won't allow me to see.

 

No, you don't. You've been saying things like true, fair point, nodding your head, etc., right? Head clearer and calmer by now or not - how on earth could you agree if you couldn't somehow get your head around what I was saying? (Rhetorical question.)

 

Huh?

 

I don't think you're immature. I think you're hurt thus ego-over-protective right now but, not immature. Certainly not compared to her.

 

Ok, so I went and visited my therapist today (I read your reply in the office, by the way). We talked about the back-and-forth conversation with my ex, and usually, my therapist doesn't say one way or another, what she thinks is true. Today, she was pretty clear about what she though. She said, yep, your ex has closure. My ex made it more than crystal clear that she only wants to know how you are doing and did not want to meet you. If she was open to anything, she would've met you and after cancelling, she would've set a new date. Instead, she tried to assert her stance repeatedly and bluntly. I don't want contact with you other than to know how you are doing. She initially was angry in all other correspondence up to now, and now she seems to be calm, confident and in a good place and knowing what she wants. The small talk she initiated afterwards was probably to reinforce, I will only talk to you as a normal person.

 

This hit me pretty hard, as you can imagine. I initially thought this to be true, you know. So my mind is all over the place. I asked my therapist, why then, would she contact me twice in a week. She had no answer, but you can't discard that, heck, she genuinely cares you because she has a good heart. I have to own up to it, obviously, but my therapist says, if you want to fully move on and love and be loved, you need to get your closure. Send the cease and desist message, write the goodbye letter to yourself, and burn it, etc., or else I'll just be in an endless loop coming back for something that doesn't exist. You have to realize she's not coming back. She doesn't want to see you = I don't want you to be a lover in my life. But it's so hard to abandon what my heart feels... and I have this suspicion she's going to come back, be it in a month, 2 months, 6 months with the same message looking for something from me. What do you think? I say send the cease and desist message to my ex, and see the reaction. If there's any fooling around going on, she will react like she did with the FB restriction stuff and will want to meet up. If she's got closure, well, I'll know for sure, and I'll be ok with the end (so long as I own up to it...).

 

And I also realize now, more than ever, that I should've sent the letter I was planning to send in December to her asking for reconciliation. I'm an idiot. I waited too long...

 

And yet - "Desperate is as Desperate *does*" - we see her almost literally flinging herself at some-bloke-any-bloke whom you can tell merely at a quick glance isn't in your league or up to her normal standard or style. She does not have Closure. She has Self-Distraction-Seeking and Grief-Avoidance and, where you're concerned, a need to punish (like she does to her dad) using deprivation (of herself) and neither setting you free nor taking you back. Right now, she's an ego on legs. Closure my bottom! She knows you and she knows you're not easily put off, that gentle hints don't dissuade you from try-try-trying again or certainly for longer than the average bloke. But granted, and to reiterate: her feelings towards herself, her self-image, mean more to her than you or (going by her history) any man. She doesn't have Closure. You have to go quite a way through the grieving process to have that. She has REFUSAL... a decision NOT made for pure and sensible reasons and a decision *I* reckon that will crumble to pieces (but not on your timeline and not possibly that you'll ever get to witness).

 

But YOU have closure - albeit it's still in process. It's called telling her more like she is, not feeling pleased with yourself when you do it, and Kinda Sorta.

 

I guess it depends on what you call Closure, doesn't it. A decision that you might even act according to (for however long) is not the same as closure.

 

Also - how on EARTH is 'I hope you're getting loads of woman (mleugh-mleugh) cos I'm getting loads of blokes (nyeah-nyeah)' her talking to you as if you're just a normal person or someone who's in a good place? Answer me that, then, clever-clogs (that's to him/her). Jeez - if that's how she behaves when in DefCon5/Situation Normal, I'd hate to see what she's like in DefCon1??!!

 

My opinion is that your counsellor is, albeit understandably, trying to re-write reality so that you'll adjust according to it whereby it then becomes reality. Fake It To Make It. I think it's better if you deal with and triumph over what is real, despite it takes more Oomph. But at least it'll be everlasting.

 

You definitely have the Oomph, Nookbridge. Do you know how many people fail to last their first month in sales because they can't take what the constant "rejection" does to them? Yet you stayed...and stayed... and took it...and took it... Kudos. You may feel fear and pain but you 'do it anyway'.

 

Meantime, it CAN'T be an endless loop. Your psyche won't allow it. But where your focus and aim is concerned, yes, I do think you need to face the decision you've already made - which is... Kinda Sorta - which is Naaaah.

 

So I'm with you - she will come back. But you won't give two hoots by then. Trust me, you won't. But if you want to speed the process up? - go for it. You're not going to die or see both your legs drop off, are you. Force things to whichever head already exists. Take one definite aim-based strategy or the other (go all guns to grieve back towards a relationship with her or grieve away from the relationship and onto your next) and stick to it to the bitter end (outcome). So, yes, in that case, I agree that you sending a Farewell Forever letter will be so definite an act it will only serve to exacerbate whatever truth is there: it will panic her into chasing you/re-encouraging you to chase her or it'll have her telling you to go away or ignoring you. But at least either of those will be a definite state and SOONER, so that you can close that chapter and start a new one sooner.

 

The important thing to note, above all else, is the fact you've reached a place where you DARE to do something that definite instead of half-a*sedly (fearfully, over-cautiously)! Ta-daaaa! Did that occur to you?

 

Maybe THAT'S what your counsellor was after (despite s/he used the wrong word (Closure))? Trying to make you grieve a little - just enough whereby you felt you had less to lose as well as less to win and could thereby produce a meatier action that was more likely to produce a clearer-meaning-ed reaction??? Could be...

 

But you're not an idiot. I think the fact you waited proves you're not. Because it wasn't TOO long; just long enough, whereas idiots (those who can't think through emotional upset) act rashly or OVER-hesitate. Trust me - your inner animal knew what it was doing and why. I think it knew you had to calm down some first or else the reconciliation meeting would have gone PLEUGH and made things far worse.

 

My own suspicion is that knowing exactly where you stand - from whence to work out exactly where you stood and where to choose to stand from here on in - means more to you, now, than the woman herself. Tell me I'm wrong. See if you can do it and not sit there itching afterwards. (...But that isn't a threat to drop a spider down your trousers. LOL. I'm talking mental only. ;-))

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

PS: By the way - FYI (because I've seen this a thousand times): the reason why her huge sulk became a mega-sulk was because when she tried to break the NC, you ignored her (because of being unsure about what her aim was). You insulted her pride again (which isn't exactly hard to do, is it).

 

Me, I can picture her spotting you in that nightclub (which you didn't catch), suspecting you'd be watching, thus quickly making do with the guy that was already in front her (hence, not someone she'd have chosen had she had time to set the scene up, i.e. someone who'd impress you) and quickly 'flinging herself' at him. (Feeling the click yet?)

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Let's just say for the record, I am a blobbering mess of emotions. It feels like September and October all over again. Spontaneously crying in public. Ruing all the stupid mistakes. A huge desire to walk up to her and lay it all on the line. Man, it feels like my mom, grandpa, my cat and dog all died at once today. All over someone telling me, get a grip, she's not coming back and get closure so you can heal now! (Also, doesn't help seeing an adolescent photo of her on FB, all adorable, with her first cat - a photo which she showed me days after our BU!) I'm finding it so hard to say goodbye forever. How stupid was I to let someone I truly loved with all my heart go, and how stupid was I to treat her the way I did. Ok, emotional rant over!

 

Good! It's called Grieving. Keep it up. The sooner you discharge all those manipulable emotions, the sooner you'll be a cleverer operator and objective appraiser.

 

But I would believe you more if when not in an emotional state, you hadn't said Kinda Sorta.

 

Did you get a bad night's sleep last night or anything else laying you low at the mo?

 

xoxo

[nookbridge]

Good! It's called Grieving. Keep it up. The sooner you discharge all those manipulable emotions, the sooner you'll be a cleverer operator and objective appraiser.

 

But I would believe you more if when not in an emotional state, you hadn't said Kinda Sorta.

 

Did you get a bad night's sleep last night or anything else laying you low at the mo?

 

xoxo

 

Thanks for checking up Nattersmatter! I slept ok, it's just that my ex and everything around myself is consuming all of my mental energy away from life. Can't study, can't resolve other life issues, tough to be interesting with friends with this on my head, etc. I'm not the only one with life's problems, but it weighs on you after a while. And my therapist, whom I dearly love and respect, is that forward and blunt to me, when she basically lets me figure things out for myself, NORMALLY, with my own reasoning says "hey, get closure, or you'll just be a never-ending loop of this ****, putting hope where there's no hope" is tough. I hadn't bawled in a while, and she got me pissed off enough to cry out of hurt. I try to mention new girl, and she's like, you should be focused on finishing up your business or else you will be hurting more than one person in the end.

 

So, I got challenged straight up, as a man, to deal with it, show some inner strength and move on with my life, and it really showed my feelings are still so, so, so strong to the ex. Plus, you have to go by my ex's house to get to the therapist (brings back all the memories of highs and lows), and you see the old childhood photos of her on FB (via a common friend) that your ex showed you after breaking up to get symapthy from me, ufffffffffffffff. So much emotional stimulation for one day. Plus new girl texts me, out of courtesy at least ("i hope you're well, sorry but before my vacation I don't have any time to hang out, take care and good night")... Rant done.

[nookbridge]

PS: By the way - FYI (because I've seen this a thousand times): the reason why her huge sulk became a mega-sulk was because when she tried to break the NC, you ignored her (because of being unsure about what her aim was). You insulted her pride again (which isn't exactly hard to do, is it).

 

Me, I can picture her spotting you in that nightclub (which you didn't catch), suspecting you'd be watching, thus quickly making do with the guy that was already in front her (hence, not someone she'd have chosen had she had time to set the scene up, i.e. someone who'd impress you) and quickly 'flinging herself' at him. (Feeling the click yet?)

 

xoxo

 

I still don't understand why she broke NC two days BEFORE my bday with a simple message, got no reply, decided to give me a call, no answer, then sends a IM saying happy birthday. She is one to care about you genuinely, and I see that it's plausible that she has closure based on her communication after I asked her to meet up, but I'm still confused. Honestly speaking, anyone who plays with games with you instead of being direct should be cut out of your life. Saying what you mean reduces so much stress in life for the other person... there's no consistency from her. She goes from saying yes, obviously to I only want to know that you're fine to maybe we can meet after class to I'm going to hang out with friends instead, so sorry... and haha, no offer to redo it another time. (In fact, reminds me of post-BU after asking her back for the 3rd time, and she coming back and saying no - she offers to meet in person after her decision sent via IM [sent while hungover, her words, not mine - thanks ex for thinking of me when you've got a headache to end it with me]; I say let's see each other today, she confirms, then backs out 2 hours later to hang out with her friends; we schedule the next day, and I'm trying to confirm a time that day, and she wouldn't answer until 30 min before hand when she's active on IM, answering FB questions with friends, and she would've ditched me that night had she seen an offer from her friend to hang out)

 

I shouldn't have cut off contact with her, first off, in November. I should've said that I was upset with her reaction and phone call afterwards, asked for her to either respect me or please stop speaking to me. You can't say closure, then talk to me like normal the next day and expect it to be ok. (Also yelling at me during the phone call - disrespectful too).

 

She didn't dance on the guy, but rather moved herself over to a place where there was that guy (whom she definitely knew), and started dancing in front of him, while the guy is just looking at her sheepishly. I don't know if it all adds up or not, because I still say she didn't see me.

[Nattersmatter]

I have to away to beddiebyes now, but... just a quickie (ooh!):

 

Can you quarantine yourself for two weeks? Do you have any overdue holiday time? If not, I strongly recommend - I repeat - STRONGLY RECOMMEND(!!!) - you let your 'backroom boys' do the lion's share (which is how it's best done, anyway) which means SLEEP MORE. Go to bed much earlier than you normally would and wake up later (take a herbal sleep aid if necessary). DON'T try to stop your mind spinning, it's this very turning and whirring that, as we relax, become dreams. You need as many hours as possible with your conscious mind - front-room boys - SWITCHED OFF so as not to interfere with said backroom boys doing what they do best (and were doing single-handedly LONG before the f-r boys came along). If your b-r boys get time to do the lion's share, your mind will have less to mull over in the daytime save for reading the memos that come in. It really is that simple.

 

There IS hope, just as equally as there's none. But you have to make a decision. Yet this decision has to come in its own time so that it's a genuine one.. one you can stick to so that you don't hesitate, suffer wobbling forearms, and lose focus of the bullseye whereby you miss the target. Whilst speeding up your arrival at a decision through more sleep, you mustn't worry that you're worried or grieve over the fact you're grieving or you'll just add to the workload.

 

Think of the workload like this: You have a mental In-Tray which is loaded with emotional data sheets that have to be read through, understood, and filed away either singly or in duplicate or triplicate (etc.) CORRECTLY and for instant cross-referencing access in readiness of the generation of new sheets starting up again. You need to try for the time being to minimise the influx of new sheets because although 'deconstructing' is best - going from Now back to The Start by taking from the uppermost sheet downwards - if you allow too many new sheets to get laid, it's going to obviously take you far longer to get to that bottommost sheet.

 

I think you cried because you suddenly felt misunderstood by someone whom you'd previously thought understood you (which was a comfort) and which triggered those same feelings in response to realising the ex hadn't understood you like she'd claimed, either. I don't think your counsellor believed a thing she was saying, I think she was trying to manipulate you - for good reason and for a good cause, absolutely, and because it works with most. But clearly you're not most; you're not easily-enough manipulated, hence I recommend you keep dealing with reality and TELL her it has to be Make It To Make It. You are her CLIENT, remember? The client is king.

 

Again - regarding that loop: I bet you any money you like that you will at some critical point become BORED AS HELL with this. Human beans haven't evolved to stay forever caught in any desire loop; it would serve counter to survival (think about it). But people's individual limits vary, meaning your loop *will* be longer than the average bean's for the same reason that your tolerance limit to pain and rejection was likewise longer than the average's.

 

She's not wrong about not pulling a third person into your and your ex's drama, however, IF that's what it would represent at this juncture. But we don't get to choose when our Mr or Mrs Right walks onto our path. We get what we're given. Strictly speaking, *I* wasn't 100% healed and neither was hubby when we met and started dating. But this is the thing: our wounds matched meaning there was no discrepancy between us ergo we could recover together whilst understanding perfectly what was going on with the pair of us as a couple and individually. So what I'm saying is, if a woman pulls HERSELF in, then - go for it!

 

The primary relationship like all relationships *is* life. Me, I've never been an advocate of people hiding from a main portion of life in order to 'heal', anyway. The saying is 'You live and learn'. LIVE AS you learn. Keep living. Take a little time out to recover from the worst and the shock, yes, fine. But overdo it whereby you exist and operate with the largest chunk of raison d'etre missing? No way, PTH! That's self-indulgent nonsense. And had *I* subscribed to that school of thinking, I wouldn't now, years later, be blissfully married (so MLEUGH, LOL), so how would THAT have made the advice to sequester our pairbonding personas away, advice that could be deemed clever or sensible? Me, I call that ANTI-survivalist and -"prosperist", don't you?

 

Analogy: You have an upset tummy which you're just starting to recover from. If you're still projectile vomiting even occasionally, of COURSE you don't go out and chat some woman up or you're bound to puke all over her shoes. But if you've ceased puking and FEEL like going out and chatting someone up - try it. That fact you feel like it says you're ready.

 

As a man? What is a man? It's the same as a woman with no boobs and box but a willy and far more testosterone-to-oestrogen ratio and with even deeper sensitivities than a woman but whom gets handed a different 'script' aged 6 or thereabouts, isn't it? Man-schman. My husband bawls his face off or goes helpless whenever he damn well feels like it. You still wouldn't wanna pick a bar fight with him, though, or you'd soon regret it. His ability to be BOTH is what makes him a rounded, very attractive human being.

 

You have to go past ex's house to get to her? Aw ma gaawd. That wasn't sensible, was it? Probably felt like a comfort back then but, NOW? Yikes. Can you take a different route?

 

Newbie took the trouble (actions!) to text YOU (actions!) and said sorry (actions!) instead of acting like nothing had happened and didn't ask or offer anything (actions!) and made it clear her take care wasn't the closing sentiment but that the merely temporary farewell of good night (actions!) was?????

 

Why, Sir Nookbridge - I dost believeth that thine lady hast dropped her handkerchief at thine feet! Are you going to pick it up for her??? And does that put a bit of a smile back on your face? And does it also remind you that you are NOT the only player sat at this here chessboard, meaning it DOESN'T all rely solely on you?

 

xoxo

[nookbridge]

Or maybe simply you love feeling majorly turned on both mentally and physically for a woman and have a high sex drive?

 

That sounds more socially acceptable.

 

That doesn't sound too encouraging, no. It also doesn't tally with her having a go at the careless motorist. So what has happened between then and now? Is it loss of interest or is she just being sensible in that she doesn't want to turn up the heat right before she goes away and thereby ruin her holiday by feeling deprived of you?

 

The go at the motorist was more like, "Go to hell and stuff that horn up your ass" after the guy lowers his window and says "look up at the light you idiot". After that date, I text same day saying I had a good time will call tomorrow to make plans, she texts back next day and says I also had fun and have a nice weekend. I still call an hour afterward, and no answer. I wait until Monday, no answer, send a text to call me back. She calls back, but I'm not around. I call next day, we chat for 1/2 hour and half the time we're trying to figure out what day was ok, and she was like, well I don't think I can do it with everything coming up, I want to see my friends, I have a bday party to go to the day you want to go, etc. I ask her to text me either way if she has time or not before leaving. Nothing, nothing, until today, and the text I reference somewhere else. I shoot one back saying "hey, no worries, I understand, but I still want to take you out when you get back - what do you think? I'm doing it now before you fill up your agenda", so we shall see... I don't know if there's a loss of interest, because, you don't typically dance with someone exclusively at the club for 90 minutes, chat, and get her number and explicitly make it seem like "I'm not treating like I want to shag you now, but get to know you because I think you could be gf material". And there's not enough heat between us yet to feel deprived of me. It's not like this deprivation is making me more attracted or thinking she is of a different calibre - it's actually making it worse for her in my eyes, as in, you don't have enough time for a partner in your life. It could be just to see if I follow up? I mean, leaving for me to push the plan-making deliberately...

 

You said WE tried to make plans. Doesn't that mean she was unkeen only where the When was concerned?

 

Yes, she didn't say no to the idea of going out again. Just that what day would it be, she's very busy... but, if a guy you're interested in is showing interest, you usually clear up some time to see that person, right?

 

What is the difference when a sulk is so over-long thus so damaging that it seamlessly becomes moving on, anyway? A normal sulk is when the person comes round. Hers is a mega-sulk where she may never come round or not not on your timeline. She'll be useless to you once she does, I reckon. And even then you wouldn't want her back if her false pride means so much more to her than love.

 

I don't know if she gives a crap anymore to be sulking. If she has other friends, then I have no use for her. They can give her attention she craves, without having to put up with MOI. And for the affection, well, one of the blokes that comes up to her that is lucky enough can do that for her, easily with no strings attached. And dancing with guys doesn't hurt either. Perfect for someone thinking of leaving her anyways, like I think she is thinking... (I sure as hope to hell she isn't reading these posts!)

 

You don't want her back, anyway. You were "doing" kinda sorta long before you articulated it, anyway. Take your ridiculous excuse about not wanting to use your Saturdays. Sorry, but it was. Nuff said.

 

It wasn't ridiculous at all. If she came to my door and said I want to reconcile, I would say yes in about... 1 millisecond. Yes, despite everything. My heart still pounds for her... there was NO way she would say yes to a Saturday anyways.

 

Oh, I trust you and your powers of sensible reasoning, HOWEVER...what I trust is your word 'right now' being true, a statement made whilst the woman isn't in front of you with her cleavage spilling out and hand on your knee. What about then?

 

No.

 

That's right - you're NOT sure that this woman does or doesn't like you enough to want to keep seeing you; you haven't had enough evidence one way or the other yet. You've had her reacting 'prematurely' protectively and possessively (bawling out a bad driver who nearly knocked you over) AND you've had her being unable WITH PLAUSIBLE REASONS to fit you in when only 10 days away from a major holiday AND obviously having been willing to consider if not actually able when it came down to the diary details (reference "WE tried"). I call that 60/40 still in your favour, myself. And for your information, I myself have been in that very position and it *hasn't* meant I wasn't still keen. If I wasn't keen, I'd let him hear one or two reasons that were so pathetic as to be illogical and ridiculous, so that he would be forced to get the hint. (In fact, I wouldn't - I'd be straight... but you get my gist regarding what I COULD most easily do, yes?) So don't go reacting as if you have got definitive evidence against, or - how are you going to feel and act like if, when she gets back, she's on the phone proving you were too rash in your negative conclusion?

 

I think you're right. It's just... ufff (or phooooo). She keeps waiting for me to take the initiative always, forcing me to take the lead always with messages that have no path to anything. She won't kick the football when I pass it to her, she just stops and waits for to pick it up and hoof it further to a place where I've placed her.

 

Do you really want to be gazing romantically into her eyes some point soon, knowing you did what turned out to be the dirty on her? With a conscience as big as yours, I doubt that very much.

 

There's no exclusivity, so no, I wouldn't feel bad. It's just the sex, well, it would be just that. Blah sex. No meaning. Doesn't do it for me anymore.

 

Why don't you take this time in Paris to see how much fun by yourself you can have? You need that. You need to sample yourself and see how contented and stimulated you can keep you. It's called dating yourself and it's GREAT for lowering desperation of either negative or positive type.

 

My favourite type of dating. I've done it before... it does wonders, except if you have my mind state, where I'm immovable from patheticness lately. I'm shocked I'm surviving dates and going out, to be honest.

 

That's the ultimate holy grail, albeit life, particularly in today's over-fast-paced world, has a habit of interfering and lowering one's appetite or capacity, meaning you might not be able to operate optimally in an all-round, all-areas fashion unless your relationship is however much less full-on than that.

 

The worst part of our society, IMO... I'm shocked people are able to stay together. Well, stay together because they want to, not because they stay in relationships because of fear of being single.

 

They would. They have an irrational fear (of "The Big C") to hide, don't they. (LOL - no, not that C, the other C. ;-)) No different to someone who fears swimming in seawater, out with a crowd at the beach, is it? They're BOUND to big up the sand and being dry as if it's superior to being wet and salty. What else are they going to do in a situation where appearing to be manly, aka fearless, is called for? Break down and cry and spill their fears into your lap? There's nothing wrong with being single, though. There's never anything wrong with almost *anything*. It's things taken to the *extreme* that turn good things into bad. Diff/diff.

 

I don't know what C you're talking about, eh...

 

What she's choosing to do with her suffering regarding using it to learn by rather than using it as her motivation to grab the nearest (ugly) man in order to distract herself from everything that's happened and how/why.

 

I don't know if she went over for sure, so I don't want to go there. I don't think she even saw me...

 

This is the thing: it's doesn't MATTER if you pursue reconciliation with her and see it come to nothing. The time won't be wasted because it's by our failures alone that we learn - and there is as much to learn by a process that leads to Outcome B as there is Outcome A. Neither does it matter if you decide against. It only 'matters' if deciding against makes you feel 10 times worse IN THE LONG RUN. You'll know if you can sense that'd be the case... you'll find yourself doing it REGARDLESS of this brilliant reason not to or that brilliant reason not to. Suddenly all the brilliant reasons will get twisted into being crap reasons and all the crap reasons will have been converted into brilliant ones. We do what we sense needs to be done and then find all manner of convincing ways to justify it during and after the event. If we waited to see if it was only fear and the waiting made that fear shrink (which is precisely how you can tell between instinct and fear and impure agendas), we can be confident that our inner animals (who were doing this stuff long before How To books were invented) know what they're doing and why.

 

(Just thought I'd share that with you, LOL. Don't know if it's a sign pertaining to your situation or anything.

 

Lol. Wow. At least it didn't bite. So, you say forget it, based on how I'm acting, do I read that correctly?

 

Ah. You don't want newbie, either, then. But - just to make sure: was this before or AFTER you and newbie had tried but failed to find a pre-holiday window?

 

After. But I do want newbie, if she ever becomes available. I compare fairly!

 

I don't think you're immature. I think you're hurt thus ego-over-protective right now but, not immature. Certainly not compared to her.

 

I don't think she's immature either. I'm trying to protect my ego, yes, but more like, I want to make sure if my ego is hurt, I'm playing the percentages. If my ego hit is 50%, and my chances of reconciling are 3%, does it make sense to go ahead. I may as well be sadistic to want the pain.

 

I was the immature one during the relationship. I just feel so bad that I didn't value her, and her heart, when I was with her. She deserved better from me. I was a **** and an idiot. I can guarantee it will NOT happen to the next girl.

 

And yet - "Desperate is as Desperate *does*" - we see her almost literally flinging herself at some-bloke-any-bloke whom you can tell merely at a quick glance isn't in your league or up to her normal standard or style.

 

Throwing is strong language. I don't know if she saw me, and I don't know if that was her intention. It's mere speculation.

 

She does not have Closure. She has Self-Distraction-Seeking and Grief-Avoidance and, where you're concerned, a need to punish (like she does to her dad) using deprivation (of herself) and neither setting you free nor taking you back. Right now, she's an ego on legs. Closure my bottom!

 

If you say, here I am, I want to see you, and you say, I just want to know you exist and have no broken bones, what does that mean? You're afraid that you'll fall when seeing me because you'll be scared of falling, or because you have no interest in talking to me, or what? Who knows? I do know for 100% certain she is rebounding, not with another guy, but with a new set of friends. If it wasn't for them, we are still together, or she comes back much earlier. You abandon one set of friends and don't talk to them now, while with me, they were close to you. You change how you are, from staying in and being too tired to want to go out, to being a party animal and going out as long as possible. These are facts, but I guess it's what she wants to do and how she wants to handle the BU. Is it best for her? I don't know, and it's not important for me.

 

She knows you and she knows you're not easily put off, that gentle hints don't dissuade you from try-try-trying again or certainly for longer than the average bloke. But granted, and to reiterate: her feelings towards herself, her self-image, mean more to her than you or (going by her history) any man.

 

True. She has a lot of self-respect and a huge wall that you have to climb (put up with her badass character if you cross her and her close-to-the-surface emotions) BUT I know she cares about what others think of her. She can't create her own social value, so you find it others. I get that. Right now it looks horrible if she gets back with me, plus she gets to play and have an adventure. Although, I think she's leaving her anyways, which makes everything useless...

 

She doesn't have Closure. You have to go quite a way through the grieving process to have that. She has REFUSAL... a decision NOT made for pure and sensible reasons and a decision *I* reckon that will crumble to pieces (but not on your timeline and not possibly that you'll ever get to witness).

 

She's moved on, from anger up to November, to calm, controlled messages designed to get her point accross? Fair statement. I think, if she gets back with anyone, it's her first ex, and not me. I don't think I got rid of that threat, and he was always in there smelling around her, despite her being in another flipping country. And let's make it clear, she doesn't avoid his contact, either.

 

But YOU have closure - albeit it's still in process. It's called telling her more like she is, #1 not feeling pleased with yourself when you do it, and #2 Kinda Sorta.

 

Explain #1 and #2 better...

 

I guess it depends on what you call Closure, doesn't it. A decision that you might even act according to (for however long) is not the same as closure.

 

But committing to a decision, kills off even the urge of wanting to do the action. Like quitting smoking. You say, I'm going to stop, and it's tough at the beginning because you have that itch, but eventually you get used to the lack of that behaviour and before knowing, you're done with it.

 

Also - how on EARTH is 'I hope you're getting loads of woman (mleugh-mleugh) cos I'm getting loads of blokes (nyeah-nyeah)' her talking to you as if you're just a normal person or someone who's in a good place? Answer me that, then, clever-clogs (that's to him/her). Jeez - if that's how she behaves when in DefCon5/Situation Normal, I'd hate to see what she's like in DefCon1??!!

 

She said that in November, when she had that anger still. This time, she said, well, you should be picking up lots of women. Maybe it was pseudo-laughing at me, figuring I have no one and I should be ignoring her if that was the case?

 

My opinion is that your counsellor is, albeit understandably, trying to re-write reality so that you'll adjust according to it whereby it then becomes reality. Fake It To Make It. I think it's better if you deal with and triumph over what is real, despite it takes more Oomph. But at least it'll be everlasting.

 

Isn't saying, "I'm done" reality too though? I ignore what my ex says and does, I'm deciding it's over, and that's that! Whatever I do, I have to own up to it, and stick to it like adhesive. Courage can't be faked, because courage are a reflection of actions.

 

You definitely have the Oomph, Nookbridge. Do you know how many people fail to last their first month in sales because they can't take what the constant "rejection" does to them? Yet you stayed...and stayed... and took it...and took it... Kudos. You may feel fear and pain but you 'do it anyway'.

 

I do! I worked with them. I failed at my first telemarketing job, only to get scooped up by another group in the same building, and surviving, but only barely able to make numbers! Most people leave in the first 3 days, by the way. I felt fear everyday, but at a point, you just don't care anymore. No is like hearing yes in the real world. Then they say YES, and you're like, oh man, I was expecting this not to happen, now what do I do?

 

Meantime, it CAN'T be an endless loop. Your psyche won't allow it. But where your focus and aim is concerned, yes, I do think you need to face the decision you've already made - which is... Kinda Sorta - which is Naaaah.

 

Look at this forum... there's people still hooked for decades on one person. I know people still dreaming of their one love, and won't move on. I have to get it into my head that there are 1. many women who are compatible with me and will likely truly love if I do everything I've learned, 2. my ex isn't amazing, 3. you can't have everything, 4. abandoning something is ok when it means you can move onto something better, 5. this means nothing in the end of the day, because I am what matters, 6. I screwed up, I'm not the only one, 7. my ex isn't the same person you loved before, so there's no way you can replicate what you had, plus you have to overcome hurt feelings to re-establish the past, something you'll be infinitely compared to (BTW, it's probably close to impossible - although impossible is finding the ONE, too).

 

So I'm with you - she will come back.

 

Let's just put it out there. She comes back to see what's going on in... April? What do you think? It's 100% certain she does, and if I send the goodbye letter, you think she reacts in panic, or let's me go? I say she takes a pass then, figuring I'm with someone else anyways...

 

So, yes, in that case, I agree that you sending a Farewell Forever letter will be so definite an act it will only serve to exacerbate whatever truth is there: it will panic her into chasing you/re-encouraging you to chase her or it'll have her telling you to go away or ignoring you. But at least either of those will be a definite state and SOONER, so that you can close that chapter and start a new one sooner.

 

Letter's response - I just want us to be friends, but you always have to push the buttons and force things. But go ahead, I wish you success with everything (grinding off the teeeeeeth)!

 

The important thing to note, above all else, is the fact you've reached a place where you DARE to do something that definite instead of half-a*sedly (fearfully, over-cautiously)! Ta-daaaa! Did that occur to you?

 

Bravo to the therapist and you. You've been saying it all along. How long do you want to drag this out for... I'm stubborn. And fearful. I feel like I lose soooo much, though. It will hurt to get the reaction, but at least, it's a one-time stabbing pain, I get over it, and move on... And I leave in flash of glory to myself, showing assertiveness and strength of character. I accept a mistake, I want to do something about it, I try to reconcile because I feel strongly about it, I realize it doesn't work and I walk away a stronger person.

 

Maybe THAT'S what your counsellor was after (despite s/he used the wrong word (Closure))? Trying to make you grieve a little - just enough whereby you felt you had less to lose as well as less to win and could thereby produce a meatier action that was more likely to produce a clearer-meaning-ed reaction??? Could be...

 

Trying to make me end the grieving process, get me to let go of the fear of the unknown, of abandoning, in an indirect manner. It's the only way for me to move on in the future...

 

But you're not an idiot. I think the fact you waited proves you're not. Because it wasn't TOO long; just long enough, whereas idiots (those who can't think through emotional upset) act rashly or OVER-hesitate. Trust me - your inner animal knew what it was doing and why. I think it knew you had to calm down some first or else the reconciliation meeting would have gone PLEUGH and made things far worse.

 

She hurt me a lot in November. You don't say I have closure, I bawl like a baby for hours, and then call back the next morning and act like nothing happened and don't apologize, and me being a sap that day, I don't stand up to anything because I'm so happy to talk to her. That hurt only ended 6 weeks later. But I could've got my message accross with a letter or something, but whatever.

 

My own suspicion is that knowing exactly where you stand - from whence to work out exactly where you stood and where to choose to stand from here on in - means more to you, now, than the woman herself. Tell me I'm wrong. See if you can do it and not sit there itching afterwards. (...But that isn't a threat to drop a spider down your trousers. LOL. I'm talking mental only. ;-))

 

Haha. My ex means a lot. To have a chance to reconcile would mean a heck of a lot to me, because I know I'm not what I was. But things aren't what they were necessarily either. I learned so much, it's ridiculous. As a person. I was a boy in a man's body who became a man. I needed this more than anything, I only wished it would've happened without losing a person who I truly loved in and out. That's the biggest regret - I loved someone, and I didn't value every second I was with her. Value meaning, showing her the respect her, and her heart and commitment towards me deserved. Yes, it was perhaps exacerbated by her at times, but I was the leader of the relationship, and I took the heart of someone I cared for so deeply and shat on it. I will NOT ever let this happen again.

[Nattersmatter]

A woman phoning - when she's not supposed to be - not 'just' but 'two whole days' before your birthday smacks of one thing: a hope that she'll either find out what you've got planned for your birthday or/and that, conversation going well, she'll be invited as the one to share it with you. But you weren't ready to be nice and cooperative at that point... women are faster (figuratively speaking, they've had the freedom and space to practise emotional dealing as opposed to boys having had to do it in secret (i.e. rarely) in the tiny cupboard under the stairs)... so you weren't ready and that was that. Nothing you can do about it now. But she obviously made the all-too-common mistake of "being Bagpuss" and projecting female operativeness onto a man. I don't know if you know that children's programme, but the line is, 'When Bagpuss wakes up... all his friends wake up'. But you HADN'T 'woken up' yet. And she took that as you being ready but not wanting to cooperate. Insult to ego Mark II - enter new phase of mega-sulking.

 

Your timing was off. It's a sign when this happens, that you're actually not meant to be. Right(-ish) Person, Right Place, Wrong Time. I say 'ish' because she obviously doesn't understand men enough to be capable of making one happy in the long run.... yet.

 

You can go against the sign if you like. From what I've noticed, Fate seems to like a trier and will alter it's plan for the truly determined. But you're not (kinda, sorta) truly determined.

 

I can understand playing games with someone where there's still a point to it in their mind but not when there isn't. You don't re-light a ciggie that's burned down to the butt already, do you. You only do that if there's more ciggie left to BE lit and smoked. The question is, what IS the ciggie - friendship or lovership? I rather think her resentful little comments about you likely having 'lots of girls' and her batting back in the same breath in response to (this is hilarious if you think about it) her own self-made insult to herself with, cos I've got lots of boys, says NOT mere friendship, don't you?

 

But this is the thing Nookbridge: she's allowed her pride, her feeling majorly insulted by your unreadiness back then as her cue to go and vindictively deprive you of her again, to get in the way of things THAT BIT TOO EASILY (which is why I say her pride means more to her than love - whether only at this point or as a matter of course). And you have allowed this need to know exactly where you stand BEFORE you move a muscle, added to having brought newbie in, to delay the coming of the moment where you just get off your bum and ACT. (And by act, I mean GO FOR IT rather than a crumb of cautious effort here and another crumb however many days/weeks later). I don't CARE what the so-called reasons are - the pair of you are speaking with your feet, and they say either 'We're STILL not ready' or 'We don't want reconciliation, we just want a step-by-step (less painful) Goodbye'.

 

You have to step back and SEE this overall action a deux with it's no-brainer one-of-two meanings going on. Can you? Can you see it?

 

Anything either of you HAVE done has not been enough to (whoops-sh*t!) cause reconciliation, it's been just enough to leave the pair of you feeling like it's not quite over if either of you didn't want it to be. Mutual manipulation into being each other's safety-net...back-up person... comfort blanket and confidence-giver. So this is why my own vote is, The Long Goodbye.

 

But then, why would it be anything more when you - the man - 009, licensed to chase - aren't even practising what you preach up there regarding playing-with versus decisiveness as produces consistency?

 

She's not ready, either now or ever, and blaming it on you. You're not ready, either now or ever, and blaming it on her. Like Attracts Like and heats up together at the same rate and cools down together at the same rate, meaning they want it back at the same time then don't want it back at the same time....grief wave in...then out (refusal-to-grieve-wave in)...grief wave in...then out (refusal-to-grieve-wave in)... She just THINKS she was ready at the time she called you around your birthday, see. She was not. She was just doing what women do when they realise something dangerous has appeared: running towards it to tame the foe into friend rather than like the man does (which is backing off behind a rock to study and plan a strategy of whether to tame or kill it). That's not the same as readiness to reconcile. Your grief and grief-resistance waves DO match, meaning you (CLEARLY!) aren't ready and she isn't ready.

 

Who said you always get to be ready before you act? This is so typical of some people who think they're sole masters of their own destiny. You see them spouting this nonsense about having babies: We're not quite ready yet. We need a bigger apartment first... more money.. yadder-yadder. TOUGH! LIFE ISN'T LIKE THAT. LIFE HAPPENS AND THEN YOU *MAKE* YOURSELF READY.

 

So stop whittling, stop worrying... She's not a one-way space shuttle that's about to take off. She ain't going anywhere. She's sat there in indecision, still, same as you. Either act now, to find yourself magically ready when it works or magically unready or unwilling when it doesn't (either for good or until you feel up to trying a second stab) or just wait until you DO feel completely ready. Or just decide that you simply feel better, the pair of you, going into the future believing you can backtrack to the room you were last in because the door never got closed and locked.

 

Berbom. ALL of these things are possible. But none of them are UNLESS YOU MAKE A DECISION.

 

 

And talking of a decision: I see that newbie is (like attracts like) in the exact same situation as you. Hardly surprising, is it. This means she has her own ex whom she hasn't decided over, either, where concerns using his state and existence like a room she can always return to/a confidence aid or reconciling with or never reconciling with but saying Farewell to bit by less painful bit.

 

You could turn THAT situation around, too, if you wanted to. Because when decisions get made, a course gets set and actions are produced which affect other people whereupon their own feelings and courses get transformed. If you were chasing newbie more ardently - which isn't about frequency but, as I said, ARDOUR... SEXY DECISIVENESS...as in, 'Wow, you are a woman amongst women and I WILL have you for myself!!!', I fail to see how she couldn't respond when we know she fancies you already and is healthy enough to develop feelings of possessiveness and protectiveness quite early on.

 

If my husband-then-boyfriend had come on half-strong, half-weak - inconsistently - I'm sure my ex WOULD have stood a chance when he rang just over 1 month in, blubbing down the phone to me, telling me he hadn't understood why he'd struggled against a relationship that, turns out was PERFECT for him, yadder-yadder. I call it yadder-yadder and did back then, too, for the simple reason that I had no use for it any more. My husband came on so full and so strong - not as in desperate but as in WHOOAR, MY GOD, YOU'RE GORGEOUS, GIMMIE-GIMMIE!!! - that my attachment tendrils fell off my ex and attached to hubbie in one fell swoop - Bam! Ex didn't stand a chance. But if ex had got in there before hubbie had, and with him saying, 'WHOOAR, MY GOD, I'VE REALISED HOW GORGEOUS YOU ARE, GIMMIE-GIMMIE!!!... who knows? None of us know because we don't get to do two parallel lives in unison to see which option is the best, but I'm betting I'd be with my ex by now. I'm glad I'm not because hubby and I have far more in common, meaning our path is smoother (plus the sex is way better, LOL). But even then - *is* the sex better or is it better because hubby had the balls to heat me up not just to 150 degrees but 250???

 

We tend to like people because we see signs they like us. Same goes for fancying them and loving them. Being ready to make a relationship not just work but beautiful is about MAKING A DECISION, A COMMITMENT, AND STICKING TO IT. The wonderful-ness is a product of that.

 

Highest Bidder Wins.

 

Are you going to make a proper bid? WHO are you going to make a proper bid for? Are you not ready yet? Do even need to BE ready first or do you want to act and then be made instantly ready, just like new, first-time parents whose 'sensible plan' got scuppered?

 

If any bid fails (on third try, mind (remember your sales training)), trust me on this - Fate knew it was the wrong choice for you.

 

Nookbridge, this is a truth: any action we take is a positive action. What is dangerous (and which is what your counsellor fears is your case, albeit a tad prematurely and faithlessly on her part, I think) is PARALYSIS. The gene vehicle that flees (action) survives. The gene vehicle that fights (action) survives. The gene vehicle that freezes up and does nothing, dies.

 

Nothing is rocket science... not even rocket science. It's the fact we BELIEVE it's 'rocket science' that makes it all so damned hard. *Fact*.

 

I really, really hope that's put everything into its true perspective for you and you can now go, Eeenie-meenie-minie-mo or, eyes closed, stab a pin into the 'map' to establish in which direction to go? There's no disastrous outcome here. Any outcome compared to the other(s) will JUST.... BE......not better not worse... just ...*DIFFERENT*.

[Nattersmatter]

PS: The big C: Commitment. MAKING A DECISION AND STICKING TO IT AND ABIDING BY IT. It's a sign of true mental maturity/adulthood. xoxo

[nookbridge]

A woman phoning - when she's not supposed to be - not 'just' but 'two whole days' before your birthday smacks of one thing: a hope that she'll either find out what you've got planned for your birthday or/and that, conversation going well, she'll be invited as the one to share it with you.

 

She just IM'ed me 2 days before, then called on my bday. I don't know if she was trying to sneak herself into my bday celebrations, or see if I needed someone, out of sympathy. After we broke up and after her vacation, I got into a super-bind, world felt like falling down, with exams, losing gf, losing an apartment and having to find one in 4 days that I called her and said I desperately need you to give me a hug. It was the first time we saw each other since the BU and she gave me a cold look, then hugged me with little want. Then I cried, she tried to calm me down, yadda yadda yadda, so yea, it might've been over sympathy more than anything else.

 

But you weren't ready to be nice and cooperative at that point... women are faster (figuratively speaking, they've had the freedom and space to practise emotional dealing as opposed to boys having had to do it in secret (i.e. rarely) in the tiny cupboard under the stairs)... so you weren't ready and that was that.

 

I was ready, but I just didn't know her intentions. When things don't make sense, I'll run away and think about it instead of going up to it (like your example later). I'm going to as far as say that she moved on figuring I wasn't talking her for 2 months, and the last time I talked, I told her I got a job that pays really, really well in France where I work half the week. There's no way that her friend didn't tell her that I was another girl while on vacation, as well. Plus, I think she wanted to move on, anyways.

 

Insult to ego Mark II - enter new phase of mega-sulking.

 

I think she's done with me. It's not even a sulk anymore. Her life is happier without me.

 

Your timing was off. It's a sign when this happens, that you're actually not meant to be. Right(-ish) Person, Right Place, Wrong Time. I say 'ish' because she obviously doesn't understand men enough to be capable of making one happy in the long run.... yet.

 

It's really unfortunate. She's not dumb, by any means. Especially street smart. I think she gets how most men work, but her two most important relationships with men, before me, are complete flame-outs, from what I remember. Lots of fighting with previous ex and with me. She abused her last ex multiple times, and it was a relationship that dragged on in a loveless fashion until she had an epiphany and ended it. Her pops, well, they love and hate each other. It doesn't seem like the best relationship, that's for sure. Her mom and pops live together, but were practically separated, staying together for the other brother for the last two years, before I came in the picture, then reconciled and are still good. Her mom and my ex explode on each other, and I've seen a few of these. Largely petty fits from both sides, and it ends in no more than a day. With pops, two stubborn people who refuse to bury the hatchet for weeks. So, I don't know...

 

You can go against the sign if you like. From what I've noticed, Fate seems to like a trier and will alter it's plan for the truly determined. But you're not (kinda, sorta) truly determined.

 

Once I let go, I will be. I see my hunger going after new girl, but who knows why she's not so responsive...

 

I can understand playing games with someone where there's still a point to it in their mind but not when there isn't. You don't re-light a ciggie that's burned down to the butt already, do you. You only do that if there's more ciggie left to BE lit and smoked. The question is, what IS the ciggie - friendship or lovership? I rather think her resentful little comments about you likely having 'lots of girls' and her batting back in the same breath in response to (this is hilarious if you think about it) her own self-made insult to herself with, cos I've got lots of boys, says NOT mere friendship, don't you?

 

The last exchange, she put up, well, you should get lots of girls. It's almost an internal excuse for her to move on, doesn't it sound like it to you? Or a push away excuse, like go find someone else, I don't want you NOW? She picking up lots of guys came back in November. I had her over for a large group dinner in October, and after dinner, I wanted to give her something I knew she liked from a trip I made. I looked at her and said that I will always care for you, and that I'm proud of how you came from the girl that was scared ****less coming off the plane to live here to someone who learned two languages in 1 year and that you looked at the fear and overcame it, when you thought everything was impossible. I was crying a little while saying it, and she looked at me, with a half-smirk and said "are you obsessed with me or something? Can't you find someone else better?" Some of these remarks still bother me, as you can see... anyways, I don't even think she knows what she wants, other than to have fun. I'm telling myself to move on, but not doing it with my feet... haha.

 

But this is the thing Nookbridge: she's allowed her pride, her feeling majorly insulted by your unreadiness back then as her cue to go and vindictively deprive you of her again, to get in the way of things THAT BIT TOO EASILY (which is why I say her pride means more to her than love - whether only at this point or as a matter of course).

 

I don't know. If I was her, would you not just call or something more obvious to talk. She has the courage to do it. It was a sympathy message, done with a huge DO NOT APPROACH ME sign. I said, I don't need your sympathy, and I see that sign. Me thinks, at least...

 

I don't CARE what the so-called reasons are - the pair of you are speaking with your feet, and they say either 'We're STILL not ready' or 'We don't want reconciliation, we just want a step-by-step (less painful) Goodbye'.

 

I think she's said goodbye already. She knows that she's leaving anyways, going back home, where if all else fails, she has an old security blanket waiting (which, curiously enough, mentioned post-BU a few times - "you know, my ex called me on my birthday" or "me and my ex had some big arguments, but no one has ever hurt me as much as you did when you didn't say sex with me was the best you had in your life", etc.)

 

Anything either of you HAVE done has not been enough to (whoops-sh*t!) cause reconciliation, it's been just enough to leave the pair of you feeling like it's not quite over if either of you didn't want it to be. Mutual manipulation into being each other's safety-net...back-up person... comfort blanket and confidence-giver. So this is why my own vote is, The Long Goodbye

 

She doesn't even need a comfort blanket I don't think. As soon as she feels the need for something, she'll just go back home. Although, there she have to live with her folks, and there goes her newfound freedom to do as she pleases, so I don't know. I think the SHORT GOODBYE is better... I fetch out her motives right off the bat. If there's any ounce of wanting to reconcile, she has to ACT. It's win/win for me, no? I let go instantly, or she gives a sign to me to say "hey, one more try?"

 

But then, why would it be anything more when you - the man - 009, licensed to chase - aren't even practising what you preach up there regarding playing-with versus decisiveness as produces consistency?

 

Risk vs. reward. Likelihood we get together, extremely low. Isn't it even worth it? I'm not so sure. I'm scared of possible hurt from the meeting, getting my hopes up, fear of abandoning a chance, etc. Although, if I run at the wall at full speed, I might actually knock the wall down!

 

She just THINKS she was ready at the time she called you around your birthday, see. She was not. She was just doing what women do when they realise something dangerous has appeared: running towards it to tame the foe into friend rather than like the man does (which is backing off behind a rock to study and plan a strategy of whether to tame or kill it). That's not the same as readiness to reconcile. Your grief and grief-resistance waves DO match, meaning you (CLEARLY!) aren't ready and she isn't ready.

 

I just don't know what she's up to. Well, other than putting up nostalgic photos from growing up on FB. Her place of residence is still erect. And she goes to the same bar every week, dances, and picks up guys. If this was true, and I could read her, I would be aggressive.

 

Who said you always get to be ready before you act? This is so typical of some people who think they're sole masters of their own destiny. You see them spouting this nonsense about having babies: We're not quite ready yet. We need a bigger apartment first... more money.. yadder-yadder. TOUGH! LIFE ISN'T LIKE THAT. LIFE HAPPENS AND THEN YOU *MAKE* YOURSELF READY.

 

True, but you have to be cautious too.

 

So stop whittling, stop worrying... She's not a one-way space shuttle that's about to take off. She ain't going anywhere. She's sat there in indecision, still, same as you. Either act now, to find yourself magically ready when it works or magically unready or unwilling when it doesn't (either for good or until you feel up to trying a second stab) or just wait until you DO feel completely ready. Or just decide that you simply feel better, the pair of you, going into the future believing you can backtrack to the room you were last in because the door never got closed and locked.

 

In the last sequence of messages, she didn't say, please stop messaging me, it's never possible. It's just a basically, well, I don't feel like it right now, so sorry. Try again. As if to see how desperate am I. If I don't want to see the person for that purpose, I would be clear as clear can be. (Although, one day she went from I just want to know how you are to the next day, next week maybe - but I just want to know how you are - kind of like hiding). I kind of disagreed with my therapist on this, but my therapist said, "no, it's pretty obvious, she's putting up a stop sign and saying I don't want this." I don't know if it's a sympathy play to see how I am, or what it was. I'm just realizing I'm more confused than I've ever been... I wish she could leave this country and make it so it's impossible for us to get back together. I could live freely here, not have to be scared of seeing her, etc.

 

She will backtrack to her ex, guaranteed. Not me.

 

And talking of a decision: I see that newbie is (like attracts like) in the exact same situation as you. Hardly surprising, is it. This means she has her own ex whom she hasn't decided over, either, where concerns using his state and existence like a room she can always return to/a confidence aid or reconciling with or never reconciling with but saying Farewell to bit by less painful bit.

 

I feel like saying neither girl, to be honest. These stall tactics, really pathetic stuff. I know absolutely nothing to speculate, so I don't know. Would be funny if it was true. But how hard is it to text back immediately to someone, and not wait 1, 2 or 3 days unless you're super busy. PLEASE!!!

 

You could turn THAT situation around, too, if you wanted to. Because when decisions get made, a course gets set and actions are produced which affect other people whereupon their own feelings and courses get transformed. If you were chasing newbie more ardently - which isn't about frequency but, as I said, ARDOUR... SEXY DECISIVENESS...as in, 'Wow, you are a woman amongst women and I WILL have you for myself!!!', I fail to see how she couldn't respond when we know she fancies you already and is healthy enough to develop feelings of possessiveness and protectiveness quite early on.

 

I can't jump out there that aggressively early on, but I get what you're saying. If I could ever get her in person, that would be another thing. My interest is just going to wane over 2 weeks though. I know she fancies me, but almost too much that she's hiding. Or she has someone on the side. Or she's scared of falling in love. But something, something is wrong with everything. I wish I knew what other people were thinking...

 

But even then - *is* the sex better or is it better because hubby had the balls to heat me up not just to 150 degrees but 250???

 

Of course it is. That's the whole point of our animal desire.

 

We tend to like people because we see signs they like us. Same goes for fancying them and loving them. Being ready to make a relationship not just work but beautiful is about MAKING A DECISION, A COMMITMENT, AND STICKING TO IT. The wonderful-ness is a product of that.

 

Then how does jealousy work then, too? That that particular person can get someone else also increases our want for that person, or else they'll go away. I was pretty open that I fancied new girl, but she's so exterior-cold that I can't get a smile out of somethings, or they get shot down seemingly. But you're right...

 

Are you going to make a proper bid? WHO are you going to make a proper bid for? Are you not ready yet? Do even need to BE ready first or do you want to act and then be made instantly ready, just like new, first-time parents whose 'sensible plan' got scuppered?

 

I'm obviously screaming out that I want to make a bid. It doesn't matter that I'm not ready, you're right. If you ever say NO to a woman, subconsciously, it's as if you don't want that person, because if it's your desire, you'll never look back. So, new girl. But new girl, she doesn't respoooooond to meeeeeee. I'm not going to send 5 or 10 text messages a day either, but what do you do? She doesn't say NO ever, but it's almost as if, I should be more aggressive. Or ignore her and let her come. That usually doesn't work...

 

Nookbridge, this is a truth: any action we take is a positive action. What is dangerous (and which is what your counsellor fears is your case, albeit a tad prematurely and faithlessly on her part, I think) is PARALYSIS. The gene vehicle that flees (action) survives. The gene vehicle that fights (action) survives. The gene vehicle that freezes up and does nothing, dies.

 

I think she's scared for good reason. I'm not in a good mental state at all. I have to move.

 

I really, really hope that's put everything into its true perspective for you and you can now go, Eeenie-meenie-minie-mo or, eyes closed, stab a pin into the 'map' to establish in which direction to go? There's no disastrous outcome here. Any outcome compared to the other(s) will JUST.... BE......not better not worse... just ...*DIFFERENT*.

 

I just have to wait 2 weeks now, no? Which is the worst part of it all...

 

My response to this, I think I just realized, is a discombobulated mess of emotions and thoughts. Ufff... I'm all over the place and nowhere at the same time.

[Nattersmatter]

Right - buckle up, kiddo!

 

She just IM'ed me 2 days before, then called on my bday. I don't know if she was trying to sneak herself into my bday celebrations, or see if I needed someone, out of sympathy. After we broke up and after her vacation, I got into a super-bind, world felt like falling down, with exams, losing gf, losing an apartment and having to find one in 4 days that I called her and said I desperately need you to give me a hug. It was the first time we saw each other since the BU and she gave me a cold look, then hugged me with little want. Then I cried, she tried to calm me down, yadda yadda yadda, so yea, it might've been over sympathy more than anything else.

 

What is she - Mother bleedin' Theresa!? STOP. Stop with this saint and sympathy nonsense! Think of some ex girlfriend of yours for whom you feel NOTHING...NADA... ZIP. Would YOU be arsed to get off your arse- ACTUALLY GET OFF YOUR ARSE to go meet her after you were done with her and there was no point in having anything to do with her any more? And then to keep mailing and IM-ing and not just replying as briefly and perfunctorily as manners would allow but actually INITIATING as well as ENCOURAGING the conversation to continue on a new topic? BE REAL. Nobody feels sorry for you. Least of all HER!

 

I was ready, but I just didn't know her intentions.

 

If you were ready you wouldn't care WHAT her intentions are because you'd remember that as a man, it's your job to take a woman who is in Neutral/Not Bothered mode and charm the pants off of her (literally in some cases)! YOU...WERE...*NOT*...REA-DY. I have seen you a thousand times before. You weren't ready then and you aren't ready 'now'.

 

When things don't make sense, I'll run away and think about it instead of going up to it (like your example later). I'm going to as far as say that she moved on figuring I wasn't talking her for 2 months,

 

She may have started to but clearly going by that last exchange and her childishly petty and jealous 'go get some girls' comment, that didn't take nearly enough to constitute moving on. It takes WAY more than 2 piddly months to even BEGIN to move on! It takes 1 year to have the ability to resist and 2 years to be functioning like your normal self again and 5 years to be completely over the lessons that the entire event churned up. And yes, she DID bloomin' see you at the nightclub! Her ACTIONS say so. Or what - you're suggesting that she just HAPPENED to realise she needed to be dancing with a man right at the moment she did seconds before you just HAPPENED to turn your head in her direction again? Get.... REAL. The woman is well versed in how men behave in that situation and only that situation and how to time it just right so make them jealous as well as give them a hurtful Vs-Up! She's a manipulator - she learned it off her dad (whereas her mum just blows when she feels like it). That is not the same as understanding men. That's understanding how to manipulatively torture someone as a way to get your own back (because they've hurt you when they weren't supposed to and you still care about them and it).

 

and the last time I talked, I told her I got a job that pays really, really well in France where I work half the week. There's no way that her friend didn't tell her that I was another girl while on vacation, as well. Plus, I think she wanted to move on, anyways.

 

Now THAT, you could have a point over. (And I didn't know about that before now.) It would have set her back, yes. But things like this (2-5yrs) aren't enough.

 

I think she's done with me. It's not even a sulk anymore. Her life is happier without me.

 

Yawn.

 

It's really unfortunate. She's not dumb, by any means. Especially street smart. I think she gets how most men work,

 

As above. No, she bl**dy doesn't. Or else she'd have understood WHY you weren't ready by the time your birthday came around and wouldn't have majorly and vindictively over-reacted to the disappointment like she did (in fact, wouldn't have found herself disappointed and insulted in the first place!).

 

but her two most important relationships with men, before me, are complete flame-outs, from what I remember.

 

Women who understand how men think, feel and tick don't have complete flame-outs. Because women who understand men (who thereby are bound to have taken the trouble to work THEMSELVES out first) don't pick the type of person with whom flame-outs are even remotely likely.

 

How do you suppose she would even gain the foundation course of understanding men? Her own father can't even handle the intimacy of arguments, for god's sake! You think he would have let her see his entire psyche in all its naked glory, do you? PFFF. She understands ONE facet of male behaviour and that's all her closed-up, over-self-protective dad who can't even keep his ego from engaging negatively with his own child, ever taught her.

 

Lots of fighting with previous ex and with me. She abused her last ex multiple times, and it was a relationship that dragged on in a loveless fashion until she had an epiphany and ended it. Her pops, well, they love and hate each other.

 

Who's the adult there?! You wouldn't be able to tell, would you?! Her pops....Pff. Her BROTHER.

 

It doesn't seem like the best relationship, that's for sure. Her mom and pops live together, but were practically separated, staying together for the other brother for the last two years, before I came in the picture, then reconciled and are still good. Her mom and my ex explode on each other, and I've seen a few of these. Largely petty fits from both sides, and it ends in no more than a day. With pops, two stubborn people who refuse to bury the hatchet for weeks. So, I don't know...

 

were practically separated, staying together for the other brother for the last two years, before I came in the picture, then reconciled and are still good

 

That's her template. Got that? That's her template. That's the reason she 'hung on' to these exes. Even two years doesn't automatically mean Over, let alone 2 months. That's her template. She hung on just in case but they ever got out of Prat Mode. (Epiphany my arse - finally accepted the reality of the bloke not having what it takes to get out of prat mode, more like!).

 

Question is: Is she prepared HERSELF to stop being a prat? Or is it just the man who has to? Hmm? After all (ref marathon sulks), if they don't do it willingly, she MAKES them, doesn't she. She knows how (cheers, dad!), doesn't she.

 

You suffering yet, are you? Have you entered Plea Bargaining yet? (It's the grief stage that comes right before Depression and Acceptance - go google). "I'll doo anyyyy-thiiiiiing!!!!"

 

Ya get me, bro?

 

She's as hard as nails and a power-mongerer. She can manage to be because she (ref frosty) never gets in deep enough in the first place whereby she LOSES her self-control and determination to that man-manipulating degree. She's an even WORSE hardbizc power-mongerer since YOU of all people hurt her. She thinks the brilliant solution is to BREAK YOU so that you can swap places - you slave, HER master.

 

You fancy that, do you? No? Then I suggest you either wait until SHE starts to suffer and wants to bargain - which means going BEYOND what she's perfectly used to and happy enough with as an outer Sulk/Barely Any Contact period. OR you kill her with kindness so that she ditches that 'brilliant' little self-protection plan.

 

She may BE a great actress but I'm an acting tutor. I see her even if you don't.

 

Sympathy MY BOTTOM!

 

Once I let go, I will be. I see my hunger going after new girl, but who knows why she's not so responsive...

 

Yes, DO let go before you reapproach her and the relationship because, no offense, but your up and down moods - between positivity and over-negativity - make you tantamount to jelly where the intention is to nail you to the ceiling!

 

The last exchange, she put up, well, you should get lots of girls. It's almost an internal excuse for her to move on, doesn't it sound like it to you?

 

No.

 

Want that again, louder?

 

NO!

 

What are you - Forest bleedin' Gump? You have to be TOLD what to do next where moving on towards your next relationship is concerned? What did she think you were going to do - go out and try to chat up a lamppost?! Get...REAL. The tacit, automatic 'given' does not need to be even mentioned, let alone set out as some bleedin' instruction manual! You know DARN WELL not to go out and woo lampposts instead of women!

 

Or a push away excuse, like go find someone else, I don't want you NOW?

 

She could more easily do that BY NOT IM-ING BACK!

 

She picking up lots of guys came back in November.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, ...and you had your fling! Moved you on, did it? No. Course it didn't. SO WHO CARES.

 

I had her over for a large group dinner in October, and after dinner, I wanted to give her something I knew she liked from a trip I made. I looked at her and said that I will always care for you, and that I'm proud of how you came from the girl that was scared ****less coming off the plane to live here to someone who learned two languages in 1 year and that you looked at the fear and overcame it, when you thought everything was impossible. I was crying a little while saying it, and she looked at me, with a half-smirk and said "are you obsessed with me or something? Can't you find someone else better?" Some of these remarks still bother me, as you can see... anyways, I don't even think she knows what she wants, other than to have fun. I'm telling myself to move on, but not doing it with my feet... haha.

 

Oh, someone give her a plastic Bafta and tell her there's a job going at her local amateur dramatics group for the under 5s! But leaving aside the acting job for a moment - what a nasty response given your obvious pain!

 

WAS SHE ABUSIVE TO YOU? WAS SHE A BULLY?

 

What the hell do you want someone who'd behave like THAT at a time like that, back for??????? R.S.v.P., pur-leeease?!

 

I don't know.

 

No, you don't know. So why do you keep arguing? We know why, don't we: PROCRASTINATION ATTEMPT. Every time you argue, the clock goes tick-tick-tick and the calendar leaves go swish-swish-swish. Do I LOOK stupid?

 

Do you think I'm going to go off to another thread if you don't give me that decision (act/wait/forget it) or don't give the decision you think I want to hear? Trust me - I don't care WHAT you do, just as long as you make *A* decision. I have no vested interest one way or the other. I don't want either answer and I want either answer. The decision or the decision to hold off making any decision, is entirely up to you. Capiche?

 

If I was her, would you not just call or something more obvious to talk. She has the courage to do it. It was a sympathy message, done with a huge DO NOT APPROACH ME sign. I said, I don't need your sympathy, and I see that sign. Me thinks, at least...

 

As above...This isn't about courage, it's about breaking you in.

 

I think she's said goodbye already. She knows that she's leaving anyways, going back home, where if all else fails, she has an old security blanket waiting (which, curiously enough, mentioned post-BU a few times - "you know, my ex called me on my birthday" or "me and my ex had some big arguments, but no one has ever hurt me as much as you did when you didn't say sex with me was the best you had in your life", etc.)

 

That's just manipulation talk to get you falling into line. Heard THAT a thousand times, 'n all.

 

She doesn't even need a comfort blanket I don't think. As soon as she feels the need for something, she'll just go back home. Although, there she have to live with her folks, and there goes her newfound freedom to do as she pleases, so I don't know.

 

Yes. If ever there was an illustration of 'I don't know', that was definitely it.

 

I think the SHORT GOODBYE is better... I fetch out her motives right off the bat. If there's any ounce of wanting to reconcile, she has to ACT. It's win/win for me, no? I let go instantly, or she gives a sign to me to say "hey, one more try?"

 

Hoooray!!! Allelujlia!!! (Is that a final decision or do you want to sit with the idea for longer?)

 

Risk vs. reward. Likelihood we get together, extremely low. Isn't it even worth it? I'm not so sure. I'm scared of possible hurt from the meeting, getting my hopes up, fear of abandoning a chance, etc. Although, if I run at the wall at full speed, I might actually knock the wall down!

 

LOL. Do you want to try that sentance again and this time actually choose your weapon?

 

I just don't know what she's up to. Well, other than putting up nostalgic photos from growing up on FB.

 

They worked, didn't they. ;-) Ohhhh, I'm not saying she's not good. Just that I'm better. ;-p (Thinking about it: Did I remember to mention I'm an ex-player? A maestro at that? If I didn't - if I'm thinking of someone else's thread - now you know.)

 

Her place of residence is still erect.

 

Quoi?

 

And she goes to the same bar every week, dances, and picks up guys. If this was true, and I could read her, I would be aggressive.

 

Que?

 

True, but you have to be cautious too.

 

Not cautious. Cautious is for totally unchartered territory. So with charted territory, it's CAREFUL. Diff/diff.

 

I'm no longer so sure this is ABOUT cautiousness as in your inability to be brave, however. You don't MIND hurt. You don't MIND pain. You'll sit there taking it for the sake of other more important-to-you priorities. Your past track record proves that. So, I'm now thinking this is your SENSIBLE side speaking (and saying, 'Don't go there - it's rotten.'). Can you sit and replay the tape with your eyes peeled only for whether she was emotionally bullying or even abusive towards you, please, and - gathering up all your confidence and honesty - tell me the true verdict?

 

And is this why "caution"?

 

In the last sequence of messages, she didn't say, please stop messaging me, it's never possible. It's just a basically, well, I don't feel like it right now, so sorry. Try again. As if to see how desperate am I.

 

Yes. Because being broken by a stretch that demands grief as far as Plea Bargaining, requires sight and sound of a more familiar characteristic, called Desperation.

 

If I don't want to see the person for that purpose, I would be clear as clear can be.

 

Yes, you would. And honest, up-front people are GREAT for being manipulable by underhanded types because they expect everyone else to be honest and up-front as well and operate on that level alone. Analogy: above the table; below the table. Your eyes are always fixed atop the table. You don't see what's going on below it. The good news is that those who operate below it tend not to look at the top, either. And there is no rule says you can't treat the top of the table like it's the underside whilst you sit so level with the edge of the table that you see both above and below.

 

If you were to go back in *now*, you'd have to be aware of this and take it into consideration. If you were to wait until SHE hits the point where she, equally, would dooo anythiiiiing (whaaah!), then you could be sure she'd operate on the table top like she's supposed to.

 

(Although, one day she went from I just want to know how you are to the next day, next week maybe - but I just want to know how you are - kind of like hiding). I kind of disagreed with my therapist on this, but my therapist said, "no, it's pretty obvious, she's putting up a stop sign and saying I don't want this."

 

Sorry, therapist, but I disagree TOTALLY AND UTTERLY.

 

I don't know if it's a sympathy play to see how I am, or what it was. I'm just realizing I'm more confused than I've ever been... I wish she could leave this country and make it so it's impossible for us to get back together. I could live freely here, not have to be scared of seeing her, etc.

 

Do you? Would you? Is that what this is about?... Has she put you into the female frame of mind where you simply want to tame the threat so as to see it removed?

 

She will backtrack to her ex, guaranteed. Not me.

 

...So says the expert who 'doesn't know' rather too frequently for an expert. ;-)

 

I feel like saying neither girl, to be honest. These stall tactics, really pathetic stuff. I know absolutely nothing to speculate, so I don't know. Would be funny if it was true. But how hard is it to text back immediately to someone, and not wait 1, 2 or 3 days unless you're super busy. PLEASE!!!

 

(As above) Manipulation tactic. Anyway - do you? Feel like saying Neither?

 

Shall I sum up your decision for you? We have: Yes, no, yes, no, don't know, do know but don't know, neither, her, no, not her, her-er-ber-der-ber-der-ber-der-ber-THAT'S NOT ALL FOLKS!

 

Again - are you trying to make me stick around using decision carrots that are whipped away almost as soon as they're presented because you fear I won't if you don't decide right now?

 

[1]I can't jump out there that aggressively early on, but I get what you're saying. If I could ever get her in person, that would be another thing. My interest is just going to wane over 2 weeks though. I know she fancies me, but almost too much that she's hiding. Or she has someone on the side. Or she's scared of falling in love. [3]But something, something is wrong with everything. I wish I knew what other people were thinking...

 

1. Can't you? Why can't you?

 

2. GOTCHA! (Worried HER interest is going to wane. Pff.)

 

3. Yes. It's called, My left ankle is still tied by that 3-legged-race string to ex ergo I cannot tie my right ankle to newbie... or I will get split into two and/or fall flat on my face going nowhere but face-down in the grass.

 

So let's wait and take advantage of the fact newbie is going to be unavailable on holiday, and concentrate on exipoopoos! Simple! Yes? Or not? First I need that answer to that burning question about bullying.

 

Of course it is. That's the whole point of our animal desire.

 

If you meant where 250 degrees represents greater mental attachment which means sex happens as much if not more so in the head as well as through the usual channel of the naughty bits, then, YES - TICK!

 

Then how does jealousy work then, too? That that particular person can get someone else also increases our want for that person, or else they'll go away. I was pretty open that I fancied new girl, but she's so exterior-cold that I can't get a smile out of somethings, or they get shot down seemingly. But you're right...

 

Know what the greatest thing about ice is? IT CAN BE MELTED.

 

Jealousy is about threat of Loss (we beans hate loss) and getting Ostracised (our greatest fear, even before Death) as well as it represents a recommendation from someone to whom we would aspire thus compete with (ambition and death avoidance/abeyance). I gather you failed to feel jealous of 'ugly bloke', right? But being wanted, as in WAN-TED-UH!!!, is stronger because the greatest desire is to be coveted to the extent of never being let go (everyone needs a hero) due to our being wholly understood yet ACCEPTED, warts and all (the only remedy to the natural human state of loneliness).

 

I'm obviously screaming out that I want to make a bid. It doesn't matter that I'm not ready, you're right. If you ever say NO to a woman, subconsciously, it's as if you don't want that person, because if it's your desire, you'll never look back. So, new girl. But new girl, she doesn't respoooooond to meeeeeee. I'm not going to send 5 or 10 text messages a day either, but what do you do? She doesn't say NO ever, but it's almost as if, I should be more aggressive. Or ignore her and let her come. That usually doesn't work...

 

That is not screaming. That's vacillating... yes, no, yes, don't know, do I?, ooer...

 

When you're ready to- not make but PLACE a decision, it will look like either of these without any other (no offense) waffle either before or after it:

 

(a) Yes

(b) No

© Not yet

(d) Still don't know/need more time.

 

I think she's scared for good reason. I'm not in a good mental state at all. I have to move.

 

(They both are. Because you are.) And, Yes. You do. You definitely definitely definitely do (bie-doobie-doo.)

 

I just have to wait 2 weeks now, no? Which is the worst part of it all...

 

No, it's not. It's the thinking about it that's the worst part. It'll go too fast for your liking, you watch!

 

My response to this, I think I just realized, is a discombobulated mess of emotions and thoughts. Ufff... I'm all over the place and nowhere at the same time.

 

Oh, look - I was ahead of you yet again. LOL LOL (slap me later)

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

There IS something I want to clear up, though. Why on earth - I repeat, why on EARTH did you tell her that sex with her wasn't the best you'd ever had? What possessed you? What were you hoping to achieve? Do you realise what a No-No that is?

 

xoxo

[nookbridge]

There IS something I want to clear up, though. Why on earth - I repeat, why on EARTH did you tell her that sex with her wasn't the best you'd ever had? What possessed you? What were you hoping to achieve? Do you realise what a No-No that is?

 

xoxo

 

Brain fart of epic proportions. No excuse. She asked me this post-sex, and I was flat out honest with her. This is the time when it is acceptable to lie. I realize how stupid it was, of course. I lowered her self-esteem to zero. I've learned my lesson and I tried to reassure her that it wasn't the case after a while, but once you say it once...

[nookbridge]

I'm going to step away for a few days and let my head clear up. You're so right, in that I am utterly indecisive at the moment, and I don't need to subject anyone to answering the same old questions and put up the same old content time after time. I am fed up with myself inside, and I can only imagine how an outsider, who only knows me through this forum, a generous spirit wanting to bestow knowledge upon me in a time of need must feel when having to try to grit their teeth through responding to these messages from someone who is totally scatterbrained.

 

Nattersmatter, I just wanted to thank you immensely for your help and I apologize for having to keep answering what seemingly are the same posts over and over again. When I have calmed down, processed my emotions and gained some rational thought, I'll put up a post on the forum on which direction I would like to lead. The last 48 hours have been really unsettling with all of this advice and analysis and input into my brain that I'm at sensory overload, causing me to be unassertive, indecisive and repulsive to be around.

 

I will answer the latest post you put up this evening and then go away for 3 or 4 days I figure. I know you're amazingly generous at helping a lot of people on here, and your energy is best served helping others who are ready to provide you with important questions, or dodge stupid spiders that land on you! Thanks once again!