Emotional affair or just pushing boundaries

[camus154]

Instead of all of these wild and zany scenarios, why don't you play the part of adult and put your foot down with your wife? Tell her if she goes out on another "date" with this "friend", you're done. Over. Filing for divorce. And mean it.

 

Be an adult and talk to her, but stop playing the role of a victim here. I know this must be horribly difficult for you, but you need to find your backbone and start asserting boundaries.

[nbr]

@ mhowe, I agree she won't likely read it, but she will ask me questions as I'm reading it. It's in her nature.

 

@ camus154, I know. I don't want to be the victim, and I've finally come to realize I've given her so much slack because it's what I did to her first... Tonight she goes out, I'm not going to do anything rash, but I am going to give the book a shot as well as the 180. After that I'll sit down with the MFT, go through her e-mail, and do a confrontation at the MFT session. beyond that? yes I move out. That is my current plan, and I will see it through, or she will change.

 

I'm not opposed to them being friends, I am opposed to how she's behaving with him.

 

An example:

If I'm invited to the coffee dates, or on playdates, or when he comes over she doesn't get all defensive, then I see that as a friend. That I am excluded like I am, and that she is defensive is what is defining it as an affair to me. I don't see this at all heading towards physical affair territory, in fact I've see a lot to indicate that it's moving (very slowly) away from EA territory, but not really into the friend arena either.

-nbr

[mhowe]

You seem to think that because you had an emotional affair that she gets to do anything she wants with no consequences.

 

You have tried to justify her behaviors in numerous threads and the only buying her crap is you.

 

You are setting a horrible example about what a loving union is to your children.

[nbr]

You seem to think that because you had an emotional affair that she gets to do anything she wants with no consequences.

As I said, I've finally come to terms with the fact that I've cut her too much slack, likely because of my own infidelity.

 

You have tried to justify her behaviors in numerous threads and the only buying her crap is you.

 

You are setting a horrible example about what a loving union is to your children.

I've finally come to realize that.

As I pointed out above, I have three more things I'm going to try (two at the same time, the book and a 180). I am going to go "on the offensive" at MFT and if that doesn't work, dig out all her e-mail and confront her with that (again at MFT).

If, at that point she fesses up, and really starts to try, then great, else, I'll have to move out.

 

You've pointed out before that maybe I'm staying because of fear (I think it was you), and you know what? Yes, I am afraid. I'm afraid of losing half of what I have come to be. We have been together well over half our lives, I identify myself as part of her, and her as part of me. I can not just cut that out, I simply am not that strong. I finally am willing to admit that, but that still doesn't mean I am ready.

 

Please bear with me as a victim just a little while longer... I'm sure my questions will be changing soon, I simply hope they change towards reconciliation .

-nbr

[iamkaylee]

Im glad to see these updates and a 180 plan.

 

Here's the thing nbr, you're not doing anything to her. She's doing it to herself. She CHOOSES to exclude you, go out on this date ( and it is a date ) and hide her plans from you. That's a whole lot of choices she's making along the way before she even does this. Including the choice to do this anyway when she knows how you feel about it and that it is hurting you and your marriage. That's not depression. That's a big fat FU. She's making her own bed. So let her lie in it and do NOT cover up for her. Expose it all for what it is and *try* to stop feeling bad about it all.

 

She is the one doing this to the family, not you. If you separate, your kids activities will have to go cause you can't afford that and your own place? Well, guess what, mom will just have to get off her butt and go get a job then. She is the one that wants a seperation, not you. So that's all on her. Not you. Everything rolls back around to *she* is the one destroying the family and making all the future stuff impossible. So throw it on her lap right where it belongs.

 

You can't make her end this affair but you can damn sure make it extremely uncomfortable for her to stay in it. And if she doesn't like that fact, she can pack up and go stay with her "friend". It might be her house, but it is your marital home. She can put you out the door when she files the divorce papers. Or, since she likes to slap you so hard with "it's her house", then fine, quit paying for it and "her" stuff. It's "your" money she lives off of. Not hers. She's happily crapping all over your marriage vows so let her have the consequences.

[Centi]

Thank you Kaylee. It had to be said.

 

NBR - We all appreciate how hard you are trying here. You are stronger than most and have gone further than most. We have all been reading about your pain. It's time to do something about it. As everyone has already said, this woman is no longer your friend. She is not behaving like a wife. She is not being a mother.

 

Stop coddling her. She is supposed to be an adult.

 

I understand your fear of losing half of yourself. My relationship started at 14 and has been going on for just under 10 years. My ex-wife has pulled a complete 180 from who she was before. I'll admit that I was an A to her for a long while now, but I have put in MAJOR effort to change myself for the better. She does not care. You know what though? I am so much more happy than I was before. I am finding myself. Life will go on.

 

Worry about your kids now. Worry about yourself. Take care of your mother.

 

If she snaps out of it when you make your move, fine, but she has to work for it too.

[nbr]

Yeah...

The MFT and I have been talking by e-mail as well.

We'll see if seeing in black and white in that book makes her realize what she's doing *is* an affair, even if a weird one.

 

We had a good talk last night, one that didn't end up in either side shutting down or yelling. She was willing to stay in the marriage, even if she's not happy, just for the kids. I pointed out to her that wasn't fair for her, or for the kids, and that it would lead to her completely straying eventually.

 

When, in an earlier conversation, she threw my EA into my face I simply had replied "yes, and it was very wrong of me to do, you should have asked me for the separation then, or agreed to counseling like I asked for then, not wait and let it fester even more, till we got to where we are now."

When she came back with the "you did so why can't I", I told her I can't stop her, but it doesn't change how wrong it would be, how wrong it is.

 

I'm going to read the book. It's in her nature to really be curious about what I'm reading, so while I doubt she'll read it, she will ask questions, and I'll read the answers from the book to her. Right now she's hiding behind "I don't like the MFT, and you are just saying it's an affair because you don't want me to have friends". Once it's in black and white in a book, that what she's doing *is* an affair, well then...

Couple that with a 180, which like I said, I'll be asking for some help on parts of, she'll either come back, or we'll be done.

 

I did tell her last night I don't see separation as a temporary break, I see it as a first step while we start sorting out a divorce, that's when she started saying she'd rather stay together, but unhappy; so I followed with the leading to straying. I'm done letting her wiggle. I can't clamp down all of a sudden, I don't have it in me, and I don't think it would work on her, but I am going to start constricting some of her more outlandish options.

 

The Guy issue, well, that's the touchiest one. She simply refuses to acknowledge it's an affair because she claims she's not hiding anything from me, but at the same time she's really not as open as she claims. It's a self imposed cognitive dissonance. She's trying to deal with two absolutely contradictory thoughts. He is just a friend Vs. evidence that what she's doing is an affair. Naturally she's trying to justify the just a friend, because that makes her "not bad", but the evidence is fairly contradictory and she's not a dummy...

 

I am starting to work on an parenting plan, and a separation of assets/liabilities spreadsheet (God almighty, we have a lot of *crap* after 20 years and two kids together I'm leaving the assignment of asset portion blank, but trying my best to fill in the item names and values. I'll let her decide how to split it all up and see what she comes up with. I'm going to let her come up with the first round of numbers for the alimony/child support as well.

 

I think not even filing divorce papers, but rather making her go through the exercise of actually figuring out how to divvy stuff up may be a huge wake-up call to her, that this really is happening, that I really am willing to leave. I think she will be scared once I give her what she literally asked for.

 

I can't give her that yet, it's hard for me to even put the stuff on paper, and I know I'm not actually ready. Once the 180 is nearly done, then I'll be ready. For now I tread water.

 

In closing, she had a date with the guy last night, so I went to the dojo. My renshi asked what I was doing there two nights in a row on a bum ankle. I told him she's on a date, and my other option was to stay home, pace, and likely end up looking for where she was, with the kids, and that could only end badly. I love my renshi, he's been through a messy divorce, and is so much stronger than I (in every measurable way). Like all you here, he's been so supportive, handing out reality checks when needed, and sage advice by the wagon load. I suppose I can get a second job if needed, I do *not* want my kids to drop out of the program there, especially not my son, this has been an amazing confidence booster to him. He's nearly stopped stuttering completely, and many of his autism-like mannerisms have smoothed out so much you would hardly be able to tell he once was considered high-functioning autistic on a normal day.

 

Thank you all,

-nbr

[iamkaylee]

nbr my dear, I love this plan of yours. I don't think you can handle this in a better way. It's compassionate firmness and IMO exactly what she needs to bring her into the reality of the road she's going down. I truly hope it works.

 

I will disagree vehemently with you having to get a second job to pay for the kids activities. That is completely unfair to you and the children. The kids are in school and don't need a stay at home mom. You'll have even less time to spend with the kids if you do that and there is absolutely NO reason why an able bodied woman with your wife's education can't get a job and support herself and very well at that. I think that's something you should gently but firmly push on her too.

[nbr]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I expect her to get a job (as does her father), but the dojo costs $300/month. I can work in my off weeks. In CA at least most co-parent plans are set up so that each parent has two days a week that they never have the kids, and then alternating Wednesdays, Saturdays, and Sundays. This way each parent gets a week solid with the kids (transfer day is usually Wednesday, so parent A drops them at school, parent B picks up).

So, if my always off days are Monday Tuesday, then I could work part time those two days in the evenings, and likely bring in enough to make up the difference to cover the dojo. If only my son is going to go, then I could likely swing the $100/month for that without extra work. Heck, if they'd hire me part time in exchange for the lessons I'd work for the Dojo cleaning mats, bathrooms, etc.

 

I think that just having to face this and divide up stuff will be the slap in the face she needs (assuming seeing it in the book doesn't work).

 

I'm willing to go with the living together unhappy through at least the end of the school year or until my mom dies, whichever happens later, but if things don't turn around by then I think that's when I'll pull the trigger. Should give enough time for me to actually pull of the 180 and give it time to sink in for her as well.

-nbr

[iamkaylee]

If everyone was as committed and willing to work at relationships as you are, there wouldn't be many divorces.

[Doofus]

I think that there are two separate problems here, to be honest. One is the state of your marriage. Two is the EA. I will admit that I haven't read all of your posts in all of your threads, but, is it possible that you see her friendship as an EA because of your own EA? Beyond that, I would be curious to know what your line between affair and not affair is and why it is that. Based only on this thread and a couple others, here's my interpretation. Because of troubles within your marriage, she's developed a close friendship with another man who has recently been through RS troubles himself. They get together to talk and drink coffee and try to make sense of their situations. Is this right? People need confidants and friends when in times of stress. I really don't agree that she should be talking only with you and the MFT. And her choosing to talk to a man about this is natural, as well. When I've had RS troubles I've almost always sought advice from women. The opposite sex is largely a mystery to many of us - men and women. Getting some perspective from the other side of the fence can be very helpful and comforting. She may need this to maintain her sanity as tries to stay in the relationship. Do you know what advice he gives her? Could he be telling her to stay? From what you've said here, that's a possibility. Finally, it makes sense that she doesn't want you two to be friends. She needs a friend in all of this and not a mutual one.

If I'm wrong and she has said she's in love with him and wants to be with him, then I take back all of the above. In either case, I agree with you that kids come first and you should do your level best - as it seems you are - to hold the marriage together. All marriages go through rough patches. In spite of that, absent serious abuse within the family - and I mean serious - kids whose parents stay together do better. Hang in there. I, for one, am rooting for you.

[nbr]

I think that there are two separate problems here, to be honest. One is the state of your marriage. Two is the EA. I will admit that I haven't read all of your posts in all of your threads, but, is it possible that you see her friendship as an EA because of your own EA?

Oh, absolutely, my EA started the exact same way that hers is currently going. I know that she's bashed on me to him, and that he's bashed on me back. They've also based on his ex a lot. There are many of her behaviors that are suspect, like rapidly closing e-mail when I walk in, etc.

Beyond that, I would be curious to know what your line between affair and not affair is and why it is that. Based only on this thread and a couple others, here's my interpretation. Because of troubles within your marriage, she's developed a close friendship with another man who has recently been through RS troubles himself. They get together to talk and drink coffee and try to make sense of their situations. Is this right? People need confidants and friends when in times of stress. I really don't agree that she should be talking only with you and the MFT. And her choosing to talk to a man about this is natural, as well. When I've had RS troubles I've almost always sought advice from women. The opposite sex is largely a mystery to many of us - men and women. Getting some perspective from the other side of the fence can be very helpful and comforting. She may need this to maintain her sanity as tries to stay in the relationship. Do you know what advice he gives her? Could he be telling her to stay? From what you've said here, that's a possibility. Finally, it makes sense that she doesn't want you two to be friends. She needs a friend in all of this and not a mutual one.

If I'm wrong and she has said she's in love with him and wants to be with him, then I take back all of the above. In either case, I agree with you that kids come first and you should do your level best - as it seems you are - to hold the marriage together. All marriages go through rough patches. In spite of that, absent serious abuse within the family - and I mean serious - kids whose parents stay together do better. Hang in there. I, for one, am rooting for you.

Thanks for the perspective, and well wishes

-nbr

[segor]

no one can tell you exactly what to do, but, I think that in the depths of who you are you know what is best and what is not best for you. I was the OW. It started like the way you described, but, without bashing anyone. It started innocent.

 

I've also been cheated on and they NEVER tell you they are cheating. You sense it, you get it, and somewhere inside you know it.

 

I just wish you luck and peace enough to know what is healthiest for you and your family.

[nbr]

I'm pretty sure she denies the EA even to herself, because then it's not wrong because he's "only a friend".

For the moment I'm treading water, reading a book (not just friends) and trying to build myself up so that I can be there for my kids if/when we divorce.

 

For this holiday weekend we went on a short family trip, and briefly I had my wife back. It wasn't like the "old days", there was a new color to our relationship, but it was my wife. The moment we got home it was like a switch in her changed. I know now that it's not me that is the problem. She's depressed, feels like she's in a rut, and in a fog that she can't see out of. If I could only give her the clarity she needs (or if her OM would, no matter how unlikely that may be) we could be on the path to recovery. I know once we are through this we have the capability to be one of those couples that goes the distance, that other people look to for an example of "perfect". I just really doubt we can get through it, as I can not control the outcome any longer, I can only control what I do, and this is all in her court now.

 

@segor

was yours an EA or did it also get to the point of a PA? My EA stopped when the OW asked if we were going to have sex, and that's what snapped me out of my fog of what I was doing, because up till that point she was a "good friend" for me.

 

-nbr

[segor]

I just really doubt we can get through it, as I can not control the outcome any longer, I can only control what I do, and this is all in her court now.

 

@segor

was yours an EA or did it also get to the point of a PA? My EA stopped when the OW asked if we were going to have sex, and that's what snapped me out of my fog of what I was doing, because up till that point she was a "good friend" for me.

 

-nbr

 

I think that's true in so many areas of life and what I am trying to hold on to now- coming out of this affair- I cannot control anyone but myself..

 

Mine started as a friendship- a great friendship. It moved into an EA when I realized that he was beginning to confide in me subtly about his fears and hopes and just things that were on a more intimate level.

 

If there is attraction there - an EA can easily and quickly move to a PA. Mine? Well, it was a few months of 'friends' before he kissed me. And then me being confused as hell for another month or so and communication stopping.. only to restart. The anticipation of that next kiss is serious, and deadly in terms of the temptation.

 

We're adults. And, unfortunately if the circumstances all align, it can happen. I am not proud at all of this.

 

In the moment I somehow justified it. But, it will catch you. And when it does, it can destroy lives.

[Doofus]

At the risk of being blunt - and in possession of an opinion held by only a small minority on this thread- let me say this. Emotional affairs are not affairs. Why? They break no reasonable promises. Unless you exchanged unusual vows, your wife did not pledge to only bond emotionally with you. The same goes for you. I hope that you did not pledge to bond only with her for the rest of your life. That would be nuts. And self-destructive. Not only to you but to your relationship. In fact, healthy marriages - like ones which last 50 years - absolutely require outside support. I've been married 20 years. I love my wife and she, I believe, loves me. I believe it because we're still together. That, in the end, is the only proof available. Does she love me every single minute of every single day. No. Do I love her constantly? No. But I choose her. And she chooses me. That's a marriage. And, truthfully, it might be the best we can do. Any way, it's enough.

And so, I have to say, nbr, that your continual rending of garments over your EA makes it out to be something it very likely wasn't. So, you got close - very close - to another human being while married?? Big deal! Even if you were also attracted to her, I still say Big deal! When it came down to it, you chose to be with your wife. And you have made that choice ever since, as you did before it, every day of your marriage. All through your 'EA' all through her 'EA' ... through it all. And you know something else? She's made the same choice. She is still with you. You've been together for twenty years, if I understand you correctly -more than half of your lives, every single stinkin' moment of your adult lives. You're still together. My wish is this: I want you to start focusing on that fact rather than on the forces threatening to tear you apart. So your wife has a friend. So you did. So you've both been tempted. Big deal! I defy anyone who has been married more than a decade to say that they haven't been through exactly that. Every one gets tempted. It comes with the territory. Stay positive. Don't panic about things that haven't transpired. Don't give up on a marriage that is not ended.

[SolFeather]

Let me also be blunt. While emotional affairs are not the same as phsyical affairs, they are damaging and most certainly against what the couple agreed upon when marrying....whether directly or indirectly. Emotional affairs are defined by obsession and deception. The obsessive emotional contact with a person outside the marriage the same sex as your partner is a harmful thing. The deception indicates that you know it is wrong so you are covering it up. If you are purposefully acting in ways that you know will hurt your spouse, in ways that you know will be considered betrayal, then you are damaging your relationship. If you have to deceive your spouse and lie about a relationship you have...even if it isn;t physical - its just WRONG. To somehow downplay the significance of an emotional affair is horrible.

[nbr]

I do see what doofus is saying, but I think that is more of the "good friends" territory. In the case of my wife, how she hurridly closes e-mail, hides texts, etc. it really leads me to believe there is something more there. Coupled with other stuff that I don't want to post on the open forum, it is fairly obvious that she is in over her head if this was only a friendship. Thing is I'm beginning to realize that she's playing both sides. She's not being honest with him either.

 

As my 180 comes along and I start saving up a warchest to pay legal fees, I am getting to the point that I am fairly sure that divorce is the only thing that will actually get through to her. I would like to be married to her, but once divorced I will not be re-marrying again, not her, not anyone else.

 

-nbr

[nbr]

I confronted her last night.

 

I told her that I read her e-mail. That I read an e-mail from the guy that wished her and the kids a happy thanksgiving, but specifically pointed out that I wasn't in the list.

 

She had come home from the school and had a pit in her stomach because I was going to be home. She said how she enjoyed herself at the field-trip, but as soon as it was over she didn't want to come home because she knew I was getting off work early.

 

At that point, and coupled with the light switch of her attitude when we came home from the cabin, I told her everything. I offered to leave, but she said to stay, at least through Christmas, so we don't ruin it for the kids.

 

I hurt so bad right now, I would give and do anything to make the pain stop.

I wish so many things,

none of them can ever be true,

I wish to undo,

I wish love was true.

 

Love conquers all?

only in books.

 

How can I face my children,

Shattered, as I am?

Their happy smiles,

Oblivious to the pain that is coming to them.

 

My daughter hugs me,

"Daddy!" she exclaims,

"I love you daddy" I love you too,

Turning to hide tears of shame.

 

I am failing my children,

I have failed my wife,

I was unable to fix this mess,

I was unable to make it right.

 

It feels over now,

paradise lost,

The world holds only sorrow,

and memories of what I've lost.

 

I love you all,

You've all been so kind.

You've shared your experience and wisdom,

Your faith and good will.

-nbr

[camus154]

OP,

 

There will come a day when you read back through this thread with an immense sense of relief. Relief that you're no longer in this spot, relief that it's finally over, relief that you somehow came through the other side of it sane and intact and yes, even happy in your new life.

 

I can't tell you when that day will come, but it will. Just try to remind yourself of that between now and then. Best of luck to you.

[pl3asehelp]

I've been married over 10 years, have never cheated or been tempted and am totally sickened by even the thought of it. This is all ridiculous - just excuses for poor behavior.

[Doofus]

I've been married over 10 years, have never cheated or been tempted and am totally sickened by even the thought of it. This is all ridiculous - just excuses for poor behavior.

Reeeaaallllyyyyy...

 

First off, I took care to distinguish between behavior and thought or desire. This is the crux of my point. Developing a bond with someone, or, even an attraction, is not cheating. If it were, just about every married person would have committed adultery - you, I guess, excepted. Most people, though, if honest, will admit to lusting after someone else, at least a little, at least once during a long term relationship. Also, most, though married, will develop a bond with someone of the opposite sex. That's also not cheating. Feeling affection or desire for someone is not cheating. Feeling is not behavior. It's just not. And cheating is a behavior, not a feeling.

Thanks for making the point that some people, though, never bond with others outside their relationship and never experience desire outside of it either. And, notifying us that you, pl3asehelp, are one of those special beings. You only have eyes for your spouse. Congratulations. I will aspire to your example. As we all should.

 

It seems that nbr is disappointed in how his wife is feeling. I think he should focus instead on what she is doing and saying. Maybe he and his wife should get divorced. But his suspicions that his wife might have feelings for someone else are not, in my opinion, sufficient to justify tearing apart a family with young children. Or older ones. Once you reproduce you have a responsibility to more than your pride. It seems that that is what the OP and those who are arguing he should leave the marriage are principally concerned with. That is self-indulgent and short-sighted. Children come first. Or should. Nbr seemingly got that before. I hope he recalls it.

[nbr]

But his suspicions that his wife might have feelings for someone else are not, in my opinion, sufficient to justify tearing apart a family with young children. Or older ones. Once you reproduce you have a responsibility to more than your pride. It seems that that is what the OP and those who are arguing he should leave the marriage are principally concerned with. That is self-indulgent and short-sighted. Children come first. Or should. Nbr seemingly got that before. I hope he recalls it.

Just to be clear:

I want to remain married, even in spite of this. It's just that this cements what I feared, she has moved on completely from an emotional standpoint. That I want to remain married is not good enough. I also want the woman I love to be happy, and if I am genuinely unable to provide that then I must step aside and circle the wagons to at least be a damn good father to my kids.

 

This has taken enough of a toll on me that I'm dropping weight at a pound a day over the last week.

-nbr

[lalalollipops]

Affairs are defined by deceit and breaking of vows to be faithful in mind, heart and body...How is an emotional affair not an affair? It's like saying you're not cheating if no sex and kissing were involved- that's bs. Lots of people stay because they quite like having two men pining after them. Your reasoning is flawed.

[Doofus]

Just to be clear:

I want to remain married, even in spite of this. It's just that this cements what I feared, she has moved on completely from an emotional standpoint. That I want to remain married is not good enough. I also want the woman I love to be happy, and if I am genuinely unable to provide that then I must step aside and circle the wagons to at least be a damn good father to my kids.

 

This has taken enough of a toll on me that I'm dropping weight at a pound a day over the last week.

-nbr

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why your marriage must end now. Was there something else in the email other than a wish that she and your kids have a happy thanksgiving? I know that excluding you makes it suspicious, but that by itself doesn't prove anything. Has she now admitted that she's leaving you for him?