Emotional affair or just pushing boundaries

[nbr]

Still trying to wrap my head around what my wife is doing with this other man...

 

She's gone out to coffee with him, has assured me that they are only friends and that there is no romantic/sexual intent, however I know she's discussing our RS issues with him, and he unloads on her about his (recent) Ex. To complicate things our children are in the same grades at the same school and are friends, our son's are even in the same class.

 

She knows that I think she's in affair territory, but seems to think because there is no romance or sex (now) that there is no affair. I pointed out to her that my emotional affair with my OW started this exact same way, and that when she (OW) asked me about sex I had turned her down. I am concerned because this is how affairs start, but my wife just refuses to see it that way.

 

For the moment I'm letting things with the OM ride (MFT is on board with this).

We (MFT, I, and to a lesser extent my wife) have agreed that my wife is depressed. Wife thinks it is only a little, MFT and I think it is much more than a little.

Wife keeps making long range plans that include me, but short range continually tries to push me away.

Wife has been "regressing" acting like a rebellious teenage girl, over many things. Wife has said she feels neither anger, nor love to me (or more distressingly to the kids).

 

This one *really* hurt:

Wife flatly asked me to be a fall back guy the day of our 10 year anniversary at dinner. She flatly asked if she could kick me to the curb and if she later changed her mind, would I come back. (Note to self, give wife more booze and stay sober yourself, she talks a lot more). I told her that I really didn't know, and so I couldn't answer that, but I don't think I'd be back. I think she'd be like her mom at that point, regretting what she'd done but unable to go back. (her mom left her dad, later wanted to reconcile, but he wouldn't).

 

She's even said she would stay with me if I told her I would make divorce messy like her OM's was. I responded that "so all I have to do is lie and say I'll drag the family through the mud and you'll stay? Sorry, but I won't lie to you, I have no intent of having a messy divorce. My kids come absolutely first, and I will do what is best for them."

 

Soooo.....

My question to the wiser ones here:

Where is that gossamer line between simply pushing boundaries while trying to find yourself back from depression and other issues, and actual emotional infidelity. I don't anticipate sexual infidelity, as she seems intent on not being the "bad guy" and thus won't cross lines that I myself never crossed.

 

-nbr

[camus154]

Honestly, from this and your other threads, I think this marriage is already over.

 

If you haven't been on board with a divorce up to this point, perhaps now you can start. Sorry man, but depression isn't an excuse for what your wife is doing. I honestly don't understand why you'd want to stay with her now.

[Tranquillo]

Sorry, but what is OW and OM and MFT ?

[mhowe]

NBR --- you can question your wifes behavior all you want, and try to find distinctions between mid-life crisis and whatever else.

 

The bottom line is, she has checked out of your marriage and her obligations as a mother. separate -- focus on the kids.

 

She is emotionally abusing you, knows it -- and revels in it.

[nbr]

One thing I've made my mind up on, if she wants a divorce she has to be the one to pull that trigger.

 

Why do I stay?

Because I love her.

Because outside of the marriage she is my best friend.

Because I have two children with her who I want to give a good life to, but who will lose much if we split.

Because she does throw me breadcrumbs enough that I know she doesn't want me gone, but can't get herself to accept that, or to stop throwing those crumbs.

Because she is sick, (depression and thyroid), and I want my children to have *two* healthy parents, even if separated, but if I leave now she will not fix her own health issues, she will spiral downward even more.

 

If we didn't have kids I would be gone already. I know that. My daughter has put her mommy on the spot about divorce already, and mommy backpedaled as fast as she could. Right now I think my wife is in some fantasy land, where she's retreated to so she can't get hurt, but as a result she can't see all the other hurt she's dishing out. My kids already are seeing that daddy has stepped up, become a better dad, and is *not* giving up. My daughter tried to console me the other day when mommy snapped at me fore something trivial (and not accurate anyway). I had to tell my daughter that I'm ok, and thank you for thinking about me, but it's not your job to make sure mommy and daddy feel good.

 

-nbr

[nbr]

Sorry, but what is OW and OM and MFT ?

Other Woman

Other Man

Marriage Family Therapist

-nbr

[mhowe]

She is your best friend? Dude -- friends don't treat friends with the disrepect she is treating you.

 

Then you have reached a stalemate -- neither will pull the divorce trigger, and she will not commit to your marriage. Welcome to he11.

[nbr]

NBR --- you can question your wifes behavior all you want, and try to find distinctions between mid-life crisis and whatever else.

 

The bottom line is, she has checked out of your marriage and her obligations as a mother. separate -- focus on the kids.

 

She is emotionally abusing you, knows it -- and revels in it.

So aside from trashing what we have left and leaving, how do I reign in the abuse?

The majority of why I'm staying is so I can focus on my kids.

If we split the kids will lose out on nearly all of their extra-curricular activities, there is no way I could pay for those and another place to live at the same time.

 

-nbr

[mhowe]

I don't honestly see what you have left. And while the kids may have to cut back on activities, it is surely better than them watching your wife take advantage of you. When a child will pull out the divorce card, you can be sure that you/wife dysfunction is readily apparent to them.

 

You are teaching them it is okay to treat each other like this. Really bad lesson.

 

You cannot rein in abuse. I totally suggest ignoring her except for whatever kid issues you need to share. Act as though she is a boarder in your house, because for all intents and purposes, that is what she is. And she is thriving on the attention you are putting on this -- and still not responding appropriately.

[camus154]

Your kids aren't a very good reason to remain in a dysfunctional marriage. Kids can survive divorce and while they'll obviously have to adjust to a lot of changes, they'll survive.

 

I think you're fighting a Sisyphean battle if you choose to stay married but try to make things work. If you rationalize staying together for the benefit of your kids, then that's exactly why you're staying. Not to make the marriage better, not to win her back, not to really change her in any way. But for the kids, and only the kids.

 

That's the only choice I see you having. If you refuse to seek divorce for the kids' sake, then have no illusions why you're sticking around and expect nothing more than maintaining appearances.

[nbr]

Well, it's her house (small distinction, but one she loves to point out).

 

I suppose at some point I'll have to face this, already put my feet into the divorce forum to get them wet...

 

Is it wrong of me to want to save this?

[mhowe]

It isn't wrong --- but it isnt rational either.

 

It takes two -- and she doesn't want to save it. Pulling the trigger -- you can file and never consumate divorce === may wake her up.

[Tranquillo]

Ok, I think your wife is still hurting over your emotional affair with the OW and she is somehow justifying her mistreatment of you with that. 'He hurt me once, so it's ok for me to hurt him now'.

I think this thing she has going with the OM is just a friendship thing, it makes sense too because of the sons being at the same school thing. They just have things in common and are able to relate to each other. This emotional affair thing that you seem to think it is, I think it's stemming from your own insecurity i.e Your affair started off this way with the OW so you think the same will happen to your wife with the OM. I don't think it will, your wife seems to have too much going on in her head at the moment to start anything with this OM.

It's a good thing your wife is including you in long term plans, It shows she wants/needs/see's you there in the future with her. She may be pushing you away right now simply because she is going through her depression. It's too much for her to deal with right now but that doesnt mean she wants to be rid of you, her long term plans show this. It's difficult, but I think you just have to stay strong and ride this depression thing out. Yes, it's hurtful but you have to try and understand that everything is a big mess for her right now. She just needs to know that you will ALWAYS be there for her. Including in her crazy depressive state.

Show her love. lots of love. She wants to come accross as this evil mean thing who doesnt deserve your love but is hoping you will 'still' love her through anything. Even if it means you being the 'fall back guy' (hypothetical).

[nbr]

That's kind of the vibe I'm getting... You're putting words to it much better than I've been able to.

 

It hurts me more that she's discussing things with another man than anything else...

You are very right that my own actions and insecurity have deeply colored how I feel. I try to not show it too much outside of these forums, but yes, I can recognize that is part of it. I know when we do talk and I tell her that I believe we'll get through it and will be a stronger couple for it it visibly soothes her, but within a few minutes she's back to pushing.

 

I'm wondering if I should "love her" but start pulling away a bit myself? Not wanting to go out with her? (well pretending at least).

 

I honestly have doubts about myself and my ability to actually see this through. I know that the easy way for me at this point is to file, but I just don't think it's the right thing yet...

-nbr

[camus154]

Sorry, but I disagree with the whole "just love her to pieces and it will all be ok!" logic here.

 

Your wife is involved in an emotional affair right now. That's not acceptable, no matter what you've done in the past. Nothing justifies that. Now, it's wonderful if you're willing to do whatever it takes to keep your relationship intact, but you should never, ever bend over so far that you're sacrificing your own dignity or respect in order to accommodate another person. You know what happens when you fail to respect yourself? Others will lose respect for you, too.

 

Depression isn't an excuse to bail out of a marriage. Past emotional affairs aren't an excuse either. If she is having a hard time with your actions in the past, then she has two adult choices--either stick around and work through it with you, or leave. None of this in between stuff.

 

Same goes for you, OP.

[superfan]

In answer to your question 'is her behavior crossing the line into emotional affair territory'? Well first of all, you have to ask yourself what YOUR own boundaries her when it comes to cheating. If, according to you it is an affair, then it doesn't matter what I think. However, by not doing anything about it, you have essentially given your wife tacit approval to continue behaving the way she has been - thus sending her the signal that it is OK, or at least that you aren't going to try to stop her.

 

In my own personal opinion I think that it DOES cross boundary lines. Having coffee, and hanging out isn't necessarily where I would have a problem (as you said, their sons are in the same class). The place I where it crosses the line FOR ME however, is the fact that she is discussing your private relationship issues on her "coffee dates". Yes, she could argue that she discusses these things with her girlfriends as well, but she really should be keeping information like that between you and her and your therapist. Anything else is crossing lines of intimacy. Also, if she is not including you or inviting you on these "coffee dates" I would take issue with that as well. My husband has female friends that he hangs out with, but he also invites me to come along from time to time.

 

In terms of what you said about why you stay together (I have read back through some of your outer threads), it seems like you are fighting an uphill battle to keep this relationship alive. I understand wanting to make a go of it for the sake of your kids, but you have to ask yourself at what point do you feel enough is enough? Eventually, staying together will do more damage to your kids (who can already see the cracks from the sounds of it). My parents fought ALL the time when I was a child. I grew up thinking behavior like that was normal. It's not. I know that now. I remember wishing to myself that they would just get divorced and get it over with, rather htan forcing the rest of us to have to deal with their dysfunction. Even now, it's clear that they dislike each other and have nothing in common. They stay together out of habit and it's constant stress and unhappiness. I am an adult now and no longer have to deal with it, but I can only imagine how draining it must be to stay in a relationship like that.

 

As for the other reasons you stay - you said that you stay because you know she is going through issues with her mental health (depression, etc.) and you are trying to help - that is wonderful and if you love her I can understand your desire to help, but at what point do you sacrifice your own mental health for hers? You are constantly focusing on how SHE feels, what SHE needs, and that's great, but not if you completely ignore your own needs. When was the last time she did something FOR YOU? When was the last time she actively tried to fix what is wrong? If you are the one always sacrifcing and always fighting, then at what point do you realize you are the one always losing? She seems ambivalent to your attempts to save hte marriage at best.

 

I am not saying you should leave, but rather re-evaluate the reasons why you stay. At this point you are the one losing out.

[TalkThatTalk9]

I just wanted to answer your original question...

some people don't consider what my ex did cheating because it was not physical. but he emotionally and vulnerably discussed our problems with her one on one, went out with her as a friend drinking which resulted in him being protective of her when her husband starter stff with her in public, i heard him say he liked her when he thought I was not listening, and compared me to her all the time.

he talked to her for two hours one on one no husband before cominh home and breaking up with me.

and now they are together.

if that is not emotional cheating to some whatever but to me it was cheating and betrayal.

i would consider what your wife is doing emotiknal cheating it will lead to full blown affair in my opinion if it has not already

your wife sounds selfish and doesnt care about anyone but herself. she has a family to take care of and is acting like a child

you are trying real hard to make it work and she shows no care just like myself and my ex...

you deserve better

sorry im on my phone if there r spelling mistakes

[Tranquillo]

I think it would be unfair to push her when she's in this sort of mind frame. It would almost be cruel. You don't want a simple 'teasing' to backfire on you. It may just make her completely flip out. For the sakes of your marriage and children - be honest with yourself. If you feel filing for divorce is not the right thing yet then cross this thought out of your mind. Give her time to come back to her normal self, at least that way you both can be straight about your feelings and thoughts with each other.

.

[iamkaylee]

Tranquillo, I could agree with that except this has been going on FAR too long for it to be just bent feelings over his emotional affair and depression doesn't cut it either with some of her behavior. Not for one second.

 

nbr stop *****footing around it all and call a spade a spade. Your wife didn't backstep when your daughter confronted her about y'all divorcing. Your wife neatly avoided it and sidestepped the issue. She'd take first prize at the barn dance for her footwork on that one.

 

You don't have a wife and you don't have a friend there either. You have a princess playing puppet master. Cut the strings and take the crown away.

[Justme3]

You have to do what's best for your kids. They need a stable parent that can make rational decisions. Your wife is mistreating you and about to have an affair. They see this and it's stressing them out. Their sanity and growing up without dysfunction is a priority over extra curricular activities. Separating and you taking the kids may be the best thing right now. Maybe the wake up call will help her get it together. She is dating another man while married to you. How can that be ok?

[pippy longstocking]

hi nbr xx

 

I hate saying this , but I have to agree with crazy , camus and kay ...I don't know which one , or all of them who said about

her and attention , but I have this overwhelming sense of that as well . She seemingly puts you through anything she so chooses and you and the therapist always chalk in an excuse for her , and she just carries on with her wild suggestions , you have soooooooooo much to cope with right now , you shouldn't even be having to consider some of the crap she comes out with .

 

I really want to be able to say something positive about her but she is not your friend darling , she is not been very kind

to you or the children and her behaviour is almost pathetic ...I am sorry darling ...I do support you fully and want you to be ok .

[nbr]

I may be the one grasping at straws now, but I'm hoping that between her thyroid being messed up and depression that once those are fixed maybe some of this other stuff will resolve its self. She's going out to coffee with the guy tomorrow again...

 

At some point I will likely confront him, but for now I am going to focus on my health and mom and kids.

 

In completely unrelated news my kids got invited to join the black belt club at the dojo (a belt or two earlier than normal) to show a commitment to work towards earning a black belt. I'm a proud and happy dad.

 

-nbr

[pippy longstocking]

I can't blame you for clutchng at straws darling , you really are giving this a million percent .

 

 

hey fab fab fab about the black belt club you should be proud

[nbr]

I don't think (in her mind at least) it's gotten to "dating". I think that is what it is, it is those first non-commital dates for any new RS as both are testing the waters. I still think he's oblivious to it, or at least not his intention, but with her, she's in a fog of depression and what-if's and should I's.

 

I think I already mentioned that she asked about me being her plan B when I took her out to dinner for our anniversary, and that really hurt, that she would ask that kind of question on that night. Fact is, that's what has been hardening my resolve on some of this.

 

Tonight she's going out with him again. I (naturally?) played out many scenarios in my head, all destructive:

* Take the kids to the dojo, then cruise every coffee shop in the area till I find her car, take the kids in for hot coca. (Shame her in front of her kids would be the general idea on this one)

* Move out tonight, to a hotel, with the kids, while she's out. Leave a note telling her I'm moving out with the kids, this is my first holiday with them, she can have Chrismas, here is the parenting plan. (the big F-you, you're too busy making your new bed, I ain't sleeping in it).

* Intentionally break my ankle at the dojo (might end up doing it anyway ankle is still really sketchy from rolling it *really* bad late last week) during the adult class, so I can have a real reason to call her and make her end her date by getting me and driving to the ER. (pity card...)

* much darker stuff that I *promise* not to do, and will not post here. (you really don't want to know).

 

Now, I'm venting here, because ya'all are safe people to vent on. I know none of the above stuff will end well.

What I am going to do:

Start working in earnest on the 180 stuff. Just a few minutes ago she called, we're planning a getaway this weekend (family tradition), and she brought up buying a travel trailer so we can "just go" easier. I agree with this, except, if we're splitting up then how's she going to haul it? I'll have the truck, and besides, that's a long term financial commitment. Rather than bringing this all up, I simply said, "yeah, it'd be nice, but won't help with this weekend." and moved on with the conversation.

Some of the 180 stuff is really easy looking on the surface, but as I think about implementation, damn that's hard. I'm one of those guys who wears it all out on his sleeve, add our 20 years together and I might as well have a big 'ol neon sign that says:

"happy" "grumpy" "pouty" "pissed" "crazy" "time to die" "woo hooo let's get wasted" whatever other emotion that waves over me this second.

 

Not to overly hijack my own thread, but...

Any tips on common pitfalls on the 180?

 

Just ordered a book:

"Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass. Going to read it, then *hopefully* get her to read it. Doubt she will though, because even reading it would likely be seen by her as admitting that there is a problem with her behavior.

 

bah, sorry, I'm rambling. I'll shut it now

-nbr

[mhowe]

Dude -- she isn't going to read any book.

 

I know you won't, but I opt for grabbing the kids, leaving a note saying "off for the holiday", you can have them for Xmas.

And doing it.