A surprising shift for the better, but not what I expected

[Clarabelle]

Hi everyone - I've been following this board for a while, and it has been the source of much comfort and consolation. I asked my husband to leave the house back in April. Ever since our daughter was born almost 4 years ago, things had steadily been getting worse - fights over money, responsibilities, expectations, sex - you name it! I couldn't take his rages anymore and I didn't want my daughter to see it. At the bottom of it all, however, I thought that we were clear on our commitment to each other and just needed a breather for a few weeks. Well, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when my husband moved in with someone almost a month later, a former co-worker who always had been into him. Who knows, maybe they were already involved before; one of my beefs with him is that he isn't honest. I begged with him to give our marriage and our family a chance, and initially he said no, you blew your chance, that's what you get. Eventually he started admitting that he wanted to get back together, but he wasn't ready. But every time I would talk to him about it, he would then deny he had ever said it. We could never really do full NC because of our daughter. Gradually we started reconciling - not living together again, but spending more and more time together and also being sexual. But he wouldn't break up with his new girlfriend, even though he admitted several times he didn't like her that much and wasn't attracted to her. While I was enjoying our contact again, I was also troubled by his lack of truthfulness, as usual. I was also disturbed by his drinking and pot use, which were becoming more and more frequent. I know that his new girlfriend is an alcoholic, which troubles him, but somehow he doesn't seem to be able to stop himself from going out bar hopping with her. Anyway, I was troubled by this behaviors and decided to apply a bit more "NC for parents". No calling, pulling back, and I began discovering that after wanting him back desperately and putting on the happy face when he was around so that he would feel at ease with me again, with every day that passed I realized that I liked him less and did not respect him for continuing to pursue me w/o breaking up with the GF, as well as for his drinking and drug use. Furthermore, I saw how immature he was. It was sad but I was also grateful that I had met him when he was still kind and honest and caring. Now I feel like there is something distasteful about him. I mulled over these feelings for a while. Last night he and I had a BBQ here at our house. We were having fun when as usual, at 9pm, he announced that he had to go. I guessed that he was going to go out drinking with the GF, as he usually does on Saturdays. I let him go very casually, with no stress or fireworks, but the more I thought about it, the more I realised it was time to stop kidding myself. I texted him a little later, saying "I like you, but you're very young. And the longer we stay apart, the more I think that we shouldn't be together." Well, he called back right away, but we couldn't talk because our guests were still there, so I said let's continue this later. I called him back later, he didn't pick up, so I left a voice message, essentially re-iterating my earlier text, and saying that as time went on, I missed him less and less. Today the phone calls started at around 12:30pm, but I was out in the park with my daughter and some friends having a good time, and I didn't respond. Three voice messages, plus texts asking where I was and wanting to speak to our daughter (which I think was a ploy on his part). Later I texted him, saying my life was moving forward, he was a nice guy, but very young, and also not trustworty and honest, and that I felt that our daughter and I deserved so much more than he was giving us. And that's it. I've wanted to call again, but I let it go. There is still some possibility that we could reunite, but it truly seems less likely as time goes on. His unreliability, his drinking and pot use, plus his unwillingness to break up with the GF, and his willingness to have sex with me and not tell her anything - they all just make me feel sort of turned off by him. I feel like he's becoming this sleazy guy and it makes me feel sad. So different from the sweet, open-hearted guy I met six years ago. I'm about 7 years older than him, and I think some of these behaviors are him trying to make up for lost time because he married so young. I'm just not willing to put up with being a part-time lover. He wants to have the upper hand, and I think his pride will not allow him to come back, which is too bad - it's looking more unlikely.

[Carthiana]

Even tho you are seeing more and more things that are depressing you, i do believe it is allowing you to have some closure to this however.

 

I have found some similar closure in my own life with my ex to be in this regard, seeing as he seems more interested in me since I'm not failing like I believe he thought I would, that perhaps he sees me as attractive once again, and that I see his spendings are increasing (buying non-necessity items that are costly while telling me he is tight for money, and complaining about me screwing him into staying with the costly lease). All this just helps me reconfirm my position, helps me hold myself together, and realize that I -AM- doing the right thing, even if I might have wished I saw this all so much earlier or what not.

[Clarabelle]

Thank you for your reply, Carthiana. It gave me strength when I woke up today doubting myself a little. The things you mentioned about him buying expensive stuff for himself rang a familiar bell...my ex shows up my house supposedly to take care of our daughter but instead he eats whatever is in the refrigerator and falls asleep. He complains about our shared financial obligations, saying, "I work hard; I need to be able to do whatever I want with my money", all the while buying expensive nutritional supplements for himself, going out to the movies, barhopping...I don't think I'm doing him or me any favors by being too soft, letting him take advantage.

[Clarabelle]

Here's an update. I told the ex that I didn't want to be part of his deception - he has a gf that he refuses to stop seeing, even though he says that we are reconciling - and that it was making me lose respect for him. He said "fine, I never told you what to do with your life, I just want to be able to see my little daughter" to which I responded, let's get a legal separation agreement so that everyone knows what to expect, either that or you come back to your family. No response to that one, which I could have predicted. He has an issue about power and control with me. He wants to be the one who decides how and when we reconcile, esp. since I was the dumper. What he doesn't recognize is that he still can decide what he wants to do, no one is power tripping him. I simply told him I didn't want to be part of his complicated drama anymore - no more sex, in other words, while the gf is in the picture - and that every day that passes with us apart makes it seem more unlikely that we should be together.

[Beec]

Clarabelle,

 

I cannot say I disagree with waht you are doign, but maybe the how should be looked at a bit.

 

First, soemthing was going wrong over the four years after your daughter was born, and you should have taken care of it. You didn't, and I'm not sure what it was and don't know why what happened happened. You really need to look at that. What was each of you doing and not doing right or wrong.

 

I think lots of times one person stops doing something the other wants or does something the other dislikes for so long that it becomes habit. Or worse, both get stubborn abotu wanting what they want and not seeing what the other person wants them to give. Often, things change when children come into the picture.

 

I have a friend for whom sex is the problem. He wants it all the time and thought he was going to have to stop working for it when he got married. He wants to come home from work to a woman who wants him. His wife doesn't feel that way. I'm not sure what he would need to do, but I think he needs to pursue her a little, like when they dated. Instead, he complains about no sex, because of which she is less likely to give him any. It's a nasty downward spiral. If he pursued her, and then got sex, he would pursue again and get more, and they might get into a good cycle. Instead, both are unhappy.

 

Look at your cycle and how you got into it. I haev suspicions that he still wanted to go out and have fun, while you wanted him to stay at home adn act like a responsible Dad. When he went out, you put him into the penalty box. When he stayed home, you were happy, but did you show him? Probably not, you just expected it. I'm not assessing blame, and he probably should have stayed at home more. But think about your approach to that problem, was it positive about the good things if he stayed home or penal if he went out? If instead of being against him goign out and penal when he acted like a little boy, you could have been positive when he stayed home and challenged him to be the man you wanted him to be. This is all conjecture on my part, but I am trying to read between the lines. I could be wrong. You tell me if I am. One question should get to the core: When was the last time you reminded him of the guy you knew six years ago and how you loved that guy.

 

Address the core problems of history first. The explain how things can be better.

 

I am all for you cutting him off of from sex, unless he dumps her. But what is the road back. How do you first show him things will be better, than before. How do you show him the potential you have as a couple? How do you challenge him to be the man he can be? How do you exlpain to him, this was not about you and your needs, but your daughters needs, and that what she really needs is both of you together? You cannot tell him to come back now, you need to let him make the choice. And you cannot get nasty when he does not choose right now. Indeed, you should explain that the guy you want is not the guy he is, but the guy he could be you would never want to let go.

 

Think about the problems and a positive way to show him the right solutions.

[Mun]

Those are all good points Beec, and about the no sex--maybe you should start a thread asking women what men need to do to get more sex? I have some suggestions--pick up your dirty laundry or help with the dishes. making dinner one night a week wouldn't help either, how bout bringing home some flowers once in awhile?

 

Clarabelle clearly I can see how you are frustrated by this. You say he is younger and so I think you have to remember that he is going to act his age. You should get the legal separation in place because you have to determine financial obligations, visits and things like that so that there won't be any misunderstandings.

 

You are right in putting your foot down about not having sex with him while he is still involved somewhere else. If you broke it off with him it's because you weren't happy with the situation-- and apparently those things have not been resolved yet. He doesn't seem to really want to fix them and get back together. He wants what he has right now.

 

You be strong and stick to what you want. This way you won't let yourself down.

 

It's interesting how once all the smoke clears, and we are able to look at the other person without the rose-colored glasses, we realize that maybe we don't want them after all.

[Beec]

Those are all good points Beec, and about the no sex--maybe you should start a thread asking women what men need to do to get more sex? I have some suggestions--pick up your dirty laundry or help with the dishes. making dinner one night a week wouldn't help either, how bout bringing home some flowers once in awhile?

 

Dinner? Do women make dinner? I have not dated many women who could cook as well as myself, and I don't know many who do cook. Laundry, I pay someone to do mine, but I know plenty of hosueholds where the man takes care of it. I know of more in which the man does a large aprt of the cooking and cleaning.

 

The reality of it is a man could get anything he wanted out of a woman if he made her feel appreciated.

 

Of course, the reality of it is that many men are nto shown that they are appreciated either. I have at least one I know well who is soon to get a copy of "The Care and Feeding of Husbands".

[Mun]

Who do you think should show appreciation first? The husband who wants more sex or the wife who isn't giving any?

 

As long as neither one makes a move, nothing will be resolved. And no one will be getting any.

[Clarabelle]

Beec and Muneca, thank you both for your messages. They were both well-taken. It's certainly true that the two of us played a part in this breakup taking place. I've been taking stock of those things during the time of this separation, and the "NC-for-parents" i.e. limited courteous contact focused primarily on the child has been helpful. I'm at a turning point right now, because as time goes on, I feel less inclined to stay together, and that a separation agreement would be helpful in reinforcing that limited courteous contact (as opposed to him showing up and wanting to have Sunday breakfast with us - probably nice for him, since he has the gf to fall back on, but confusing for me). I'm at a point where we either should probably decide to stay together once and for all, or get the separation agreement, so I can move on with life. If we stay together, we are going to have to do a lot of work to get back on track.

[Carthiana]

Just remember, work can be done even with a seperation agreement. IF that is what BOTH work towards. Can't be a one sided deal, it has to involve both with equal commitment.

[Clarabelle]

I think so, too, Carthiana. I don't think it's by any means "THE END", although as I've mentioned before, I'm becoming less inclined to want to stay in the marriage. When I've brought up separation agreements before, he becomes very upsey and says that he wants to come back to his family, but he doesn't feel ready. It occurs to me that if I want that, it will need to be on his terms, because I was the dumper.

[Beec]

Who do you think should show appreciation first? The husband who wants more sex or the wife who isn't giving any?

 

As long as neither one makes a move, nothing will be resolved. And no one will be getting any.

 

In the case of my friend's marriage, I would begin assigning blame on her. If you get married, you should expect to have sex and show that you desire the other person. If you cannot, then you should not get married. She never has, so I would begin to blame her. He deserves some blame too. How I would apportion the fault between them, I am not so sure of.

 

Assigning blame is not the way to get everyone what they want and happy.

 

In his case, I think he is very giving to her without ever withdrawing to say, hey please me or I'll stop pleasing you. She does not seem to need sex to be happy, either that or she is very good by herself. He pleases her in ways that she needs, but gets nothing in return. She takes what he does for granted. I've seen it. But he has never known when to withdraw. Instead, he just pursues and complains when he does not get anything. He has no aloofnees or independence.

 

Putting an obligation on one to go first is not the way to be either. In the case I describe, I think my friend is more in the right than his wife, but I am the one who has told him he should begin. I am the one who has said he needs to try to seduce her, so that she will do what he wants to do.

 

I think that it is really both partner's obligation to both meet their counterpart's needs and see that their own needs are met.

 

I don't really think a lot of people think about how to get their needs met or if they are meeting their partners needs. Most of us meet someone and either hit it off or not, things get comfortable, we fall into a state of normalcy and begin to take things for granted. As much as others may want to disagree with me, relationships are work and understanding the work that needs to be done is key. Keeping your partner happy requires you to meet their needs. Keeping you happy requires you making sure your needs are met. If you do not know how to do both, you are risking more heartbreak than you need to. In my book, learn or take your chances.

[Mun]

Beec I think your friend needs to want to help himself. As long as he resists then no matter what advice you give he won't hear it.

 

She is sure enough not going to want to change anything, why should she? She is getting what she wants after all. Not fair but then again your friend needs to not be afraid to lose her---she pretty much has him on a leash and she seems to pull him which ever way she choses. Or am I wrong?

 

It's not a blame thing--both parties have to be willing to change things and care enough about each other to want to make each other happy.

[Beec]

Well, I have tried, but he won't listen.

 

I think there are deeper issues with her. Don't know of any other married man who has not seen his wife naked in years. Before she will deal with them, she has to want to deal with them. She is not getting to that point on her own, so he would need to get her there. He would need to change a few things before he got her there.

 

His leash may be short, which it is, but he is an unhappy animal on that leash. Sooner or later, he will break the leash and never be caught again.

 

He is the kind of a guy who will find a new woman in pretty short order. And then he will try to be happy.

 

Right now, I think she thinks of him as a guy who she lives with and that pays the bills, for which she will put up with him. If she thinks he is a husband, then she knows not what to do with one. When he leaves, I am not sure what she will do. I don't see another man in her future. She does not seem to have a need for one.

 

I think that both of them could be very happy together, but soemthing needs to change. As far gone as the relationship is, I don't see it happening without a real epiphany on someone's behalf. I don't see that happening.

[Clarabelle]

It wasn't that we stopped having sex - far from it! What happened was typical of a lot of our power and control struggles. He only wanted to have sex "his way" and would become very impatient with anything he thought took too long. Remember too, we had a baby, so things change. The focus shifted - my center of attention shifted to the child - so at times he would get very annoyed and even punitive if we couldn't have sex whenever and however he wanted. When you have to beg and plead someone to pay attention to your needs, it takes it out of you, and it doesn't do much for ones self-esteem. Plus his idea of a response to "you need to know you're sexy?" was wanting to have sex. He wanted to be pursued sexually and have attention paid to him but was not willing to pay that kind of attention, frequently saying, "it takes too long. We don't have much time before the baby wakes up. let's just take advantage of this moment. But yeah, blow me for 20 minutes before we do that!" Very frustrating, esp. since in the beginning he had been much more responsive and into sharing.

[Beec]

Well, I thought we were off topic. It seems you do have sexual issues.

 

Things do change with a child. Working with the attidue of strong, confident, sexy woman might help. I had a co-worker who had similar issues, and then basically told him to back off and give her what she needed, and he would get what he wants. Said of course, with a sexy smile and bedroom eyes.

[Clarabelle]

With-holding sex and stating give me what I want to do not work with my husband, even with a sexy smile and bedroom eyes. He has a belief that others are there to accommodate him and cater to his demands, but he doesn't have to follow anyone else's rules, and people holding out on him, even in a sexy, confident way, makes him angry. One of the things that he said several times about his gf (who he also admitted not being very attracted to) was that she does whatever he wants without making any demands. This is one of our core issues - that I am the one responsible for making this work and if only I would just see that everything he's doing is already perfect, I would do whatever I could. In short, I'm the one who has to make everything work and he doesn't have to compromise or negotiate or work together. Believe me, I tried. I think that this issue has less to do with sex than with power and control. I'm older than he is, I have a lot more experience sexually than he does, and the thought that I've had other bfs before who might have pleased me more is very threatening to him, even though I let him know over and over again that they don't compare to him at all and that he was the one I chose. We became intimate again back in july and continued until very recently, and he told me that he regretted being so selfish in the past. I noticed a change in him, more willingness to please me, more willingness to share, and to be equal. It was great for a while, but after over six weeks of sex with no change in our status, I felt uncomfortable about it, particularly since he continued to be with his gf, as far as I know. He didn't say anything to the contrary. So I've cut off sexual contact. I'm losing respect for this man when I look at what's happened in the past, and when I look at drinking and drug use now, and his willingness to deceive his new gf. I sent him a message on Monday saying that I was going to pursue a separation agreement, which he finds very threatening, and that the only other alternative I saw to that would be him coming back to his family and doing the necessary work. He didn't respond - no surprise there - and later that night he babysat for our daughter and when I came home, told me he was going to bring me a computer on tuesday (which he never did). Monday and Tuesday he was friendly and chatty. I was friendly and a little less forthcoming, just kind of neutral, and while it's less fulfilling than the "dates" we were having just about every day during the week, it feels safer.

[DrNick]

Clarabelle, I'm sorry to say it, but it sounds like your husband has become a very selfish man. I think he is deeply unhappy with his life, and so is falling into a spiral of drug abuse, selfishness and cynicism to cover up the fact that he sees himself as a failure. I think he has serious issues which he needs to deal with, and you should only continue to see him once he deals with those issues. There is obviously something at his core that is troubling him, and he is using destructive behaviour to make himself feel better. Perhaps he hates his work, or feels that his life has been wasted? I think you need to worry about your daughter and yourself at this point in time. It sounds like you love him, but loving him doesn't mean you have to put up with his childish, self-centered behaviour. I think you both need to sit down and have a very frank disussion. You need to tell him exactly what a selfish person he is, and that he needs to deal with his problems before coming back to you. Once you've aired your feelings, you then need to step back and avoid him completely, apart from the minimum contact necessary in view of your daughter. From then on it should be up to him to prove that he is worthy of you, not the other way around. As painful as it is, you need to rebuild your self-esteem, and you can only do that by cutting ties with him. Best of luck.

[Clarabelle]

Dr. Nick, your post was on point and appreciated, as are the other posts to this thread. The more I restrict my interactions with him to limited courteous contact, the better I feel and the better I can work with the situation. I have moments of panic and anxiety where I really just want the situation to be resolved, like I've been having over the past few days, but when those feelings subside, I'm able to see the forest for the trees again. I can recognize that I'm happier and more free than I've been in months, my professional life is progressing, and my daughter is thriving from not having an angry, unpredictable person in the house. My husband also has his ups and downs and cycles of negativity, but he is doing better as well. Individual counseling is helping a lot for both of us. Interestingly enough, I realized yesterday that some of this anxiety and panic was brought about by the fact that my therapist is on vacation. A classic New Yorker in August! I used to think it was just a cliche! In my moments of clarity, I'm not so desperate for resolution and I feel at peace. It's very clear to me that, like Dr. Nick says, if my husband and I are to reconcile, my husband needs to feel like he is worthy of me again, which he said to me recently. The separation has allowed him to see ways in which he does not act in a loving, cooperative and responsible manner. My question to myself lately has been: how do I pinpoint when these feelings of anxiety and panic are coming on? What triggers them? What are helpful ways to work with them? How do I maintain a positive attitude? It's becoming more clear to me all the time that my husband is not the one with who I should discuss these matters, because he is grappling with them as well.

[Mun]

Clarabelle, I may be way off here but I want to ask you this : Are you more successful than you husband? Are you maybe a bit more together than he is at this point in your life? I know that you are older so I wonder if in some way he feels threatened by you.

 

Just a thought. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Clarabelle]

Muneca, you bring up an interesting point, and not an easy one to answer. I'm a musician with some degree of success, but certainly with many, many goals to achieve still. My husband used to throw it in my face that I haven't achieved more professionally. It was very hurtful. He is an aspiring musician (in his living room) and hasn't accomplished anything, but is quick to say "when I'm ready, I can have it all in the palm of my hand. What's wrong with you?" He was stuck in a dead end job but I really encouraged him to go back to his first love, personal training and bodybuilding. Consequently, he developed a very successful practice - another thing he loves to lord over me: "I'm a success story. Why can't you accomplish your goals?" As I've mentioned, one of our core issues is about power and control. I think he IS threatened by me. I always tried to give him lots of encouragement to do whatever he wanted to do, but he is determined to one-up me.

 

Tomorrow is our wedding anniversary. My husband wants to come over tonight, I'm not sure why, maybe because my daughter and I are headed out of town for the weekend. I had sort of an unpleasant day with him today so for that reason alone I don't want to see him, and I don't want to "celebrate" our anniversary.

[Clarabelle]

I texted my husband and said that I was sorry if had spoken in a grumpy way with him and that it was because of our anniversary. And that it would be better if he didn't come over. I wasn't sure if I'd be able to act in a cool, calm and collected manner. I thought that was that, but he called me shortly thereafter, saying that he understood, and we laughed about the fact that for the past few years we had always forgotten our anniversary, and suddenly now we start remembering it. He said that he loved me and our daughter, and that he hoped we had a great weekend trip. I couldn't react with the same warmth or expressions of love - I just didn't feel like expressing those things now - and said thanks and good bye. Then he called again several hours later to say that he loved us and no one else, that we were his family, and that whatever he was doing now was just a phase. Again, I didn't really know what to say. I felt a bit choked up but also somewhat annoyed (annoyed as in, if that's how you feel, then make up your mind!). I managed to say "we love you too. goodbye." I can see how my husband has treated me with more respect since I became more rigorous about NC. On the one hand, I'd like to believe what he says, on the other hand, I don't want to be jerked around.

[Mun]

He sounds like he is always competing with you. That's one for the psychology degrees to answer ( I don't have one ).

 

Did you ever embarrass him in public? Did he move into your place or you into his? Did he feel like " the man of the house?" You know Beec had some interesting points about being appreciative to a man. Did you ever tell him how much you appreciated his efforts, his hard work....etc.?

 

I wonder if in some way he feels like you are mothering to him and so he is rebelling against you--constantly?Any ideas?

 

I'm not saying it's your fault I'm just wondering because you said it was a constant struggle for power and control.

[Clarabelle]

Yes, I think I could have been a lot more appreciative. And he has told me a number of times that he needs a lot of affection, and when I became less affectionate toward him, he really lost it. He felt unappreciated. He has been very affectionate toward me lately, even more so since I got stricter about limited contact. Unfortunately, as I've cut off contact, I feel like I've had to cut down on being caring and affectionate. I don't know if it's appropriate to express those things to him now and I don't know how.

[Mun]

Hi Clarabelle,

The way you handled things in your last phone conversation was ok--considering the situation. You were polite and maybe even sweet? ( or he thought of you this way?) Suprising what NC can do, isn't it?

 

This might sound weird, but let him BE A MAN. Sometimes a strong woman doesn't know how to do that.( She doesn't know how to be "soft.")

 

Sounds like he is being more reasonable, you too, so keep it up.