The Delusion of Attachment

[Silverbirch]

I have been reading a little about this and the view that we need to abandon or control our attachments in order to end suffering. Has anyone thought this out with regard to relationships, and what are your thoughts on it. Thank you.

[90_hour_sleep]

hey silver,

 

do you have your own thoughts?

[Silverbirch]

Hi 90! Well I would think that sometimes we can convince ourselves of false beliefs which feed into us holding onto negative attachments. I know of a stop smoking program which I think is based around this.

 

Up until around 5 years ago, I had been in a 10 year relationship which was definitely based on negative attachment. After it hurt badly enough, I forced myself to persevere, going through any perceived pain I needed to and face that the attachment was based on negativity, the the good things I had told myself about that attachment were in fact a delusion. I'm not sure just at what point the attachment left me, but I can say for sure that it did. Today, I have absolutely no attachment to that person although I wish them no harm. They simply do not figure in my left and I completely separated emotionally and in every other way so that each of us has gone on our own separate personal journey.

 

With regard to smoking and delusions, I think that the delusion is the false belief that smoking calms us. I've given up smoking a couple of times, and should have been well past the chemical addiction of cigarettes, but an emotional/psychological addiction remained with me, and that addiction was likely based on delusion.

 

That's just what I'm thinking 90. Would you like to share your thoughts on it?

[90_hour_sleep]

hey!

 

well...glad you made the smoking comparison...helpful for me to understand where you're coming from as a fellow former junkie!

it makes sense to me on those terms. a subtle process of brainwashing almost...isn't it? we find clever ways to get around our own good sense. anything to keep ourselves in a position where we can indulge without feeling lousy about it...even if it's completely irrational. seems to fit the definition of delusional...doesn't it.

 

seems pretty easy to fall into that kind of trap too. becomes a new way of thinking. becomes THE way of thinking. and it's so easy to justify to ourselves...and to others...because we're so wrapped up in it. it actually begins to feel like the truth. aaaaagh!! not sure i've ever given it much thought in terms of relationships. i've thought about the ending of relationships like this...as a sort of delusional withdrawl process. so concinced that we've lost something that is in an integral part of who we are. how we latch onto that kind of belief and it really makes it next to impossible to let go...to move on. i guess it's no different than the process that goes on within a relationship. i think sometimes we fall in love with our own sense of attachment...as opposed to falling in love with an actual person. we're in love with the feelings that attachment brings. not always. but often.

 

i think it's useful to observe your own attachments...and see where they really hook you. i don't know if it's necessary to understand what they mean all the time...but it can be helpful to have that awareness of when it's happening. has a way of waking you up. you know?

[rahulrocks]

@ Silver Birth

Does the wind ever gets attached to the place where it blows, it does not. Thats why it is free. Attachment is simlply bondage. It just stops the free flowing spirit of human beings. I am not saying that one should not love, love is totally different from attachment.

Why do we get attached at all ? Why cant we just let go, what goes and let come what comes. Its because attachments define our identities and we are nothing without them. Actually we are hollow and emtpty from inside.

Anyways it would take a long post if start digging into that.

[Silverbirch]

Oh Yes 90 and Rahulrocks, it is very interesting. Please rahulrocks, I liked your posting and would like to read more of what you have to say on it. Lovely comparison of the wind not getting attached to where it blows and also love and attachment being very different. I've started doing meditations of sending love without any strings attached or expectations to different people. In some cases, it took a bit more effort because part of me wanted to be "loved back", but I think I managed to let go of that.

[quirky]

I realised some time ago that everything in life is based on associations and archetypes in our head from past memories. Associations as simple as 'what is a table?' to deeper ones such as 'I am not worthy'.These associations and attributes we attach to ourselves come from a need to be defined and belong as rahulrocks mentioned. They can also come from experience indeed but many people forget that we can make new experiences based on new grounds and past associations need not keep us stuck. If we manage to let go of these associations we will live in the now and then we can be free.

 

Attachments can indeed bring suffering but as much as I liked the wind analogy we humans are more complicated. Every love has some level of attachment or dependency to it whether that's good or bad.

 

Regarding to the smoking example again through repetition you have formed the false belief that smoking calms you. It is an association of smoking with being calm, taking time out, sharing stories with friends, giving you something to do etc. I used to smoke and I still have 1 or 2 occasionally and the truth is that it does calm you but it doesn't last. So overall yes there is a delusion but there is a momentary truth to it!

[Silverbirch]

Thanks Quirky, you've given me some things to think about!

[gingerlemon]

Great thread. I firmly believe that negative forms of attachments are the cause of so much suffering, and I think having a crush on someone is included in that (although I simultaneously love the feeling of being in love - I guess as human beings we are full of contradictions....).

 

I think the smoking example is very good and I know that for me, in relation to smoking and several other things in my life, the complete detachment that has come when I've realised (and really experienced, not just thought it out theoretically) that giving up my attachment to something is liberating, has been really important to me in different ways.

 

I'm not sure how it all ties up to relationships, so I hope this thread will stay alive for a while and get some different contributions. I think part of it is an unhealthy kind of ownership in some relationships which in turn spark misdirected jealousy. It's a very fine balance to maintain healthy interdependency in a relationship and at the same time avoid unhealthy attachment. I haven't really cracked that code yet.

[charity]

we are humans, we change our minds all the time, that is our right as humans. no matter how much one loves someone, everything can change-people, feelings, situations. loving someone is just one lovely aspect of our time here on earth. it is not everything. to become attached to things, people, relationships, is to focus too much on one thing. when we become attached to something then we become scared we will lose it. but we will anyway, in some form or way. because.... everything changes.

 

i think a healthy mindset s knowing really how to give and receive love. enjoy it for what it is. but do not become attached to that love for your functioning. because that love will change. if we lose love then we can accept it, feel sad but still be happy functioning individuals. when we lose attachment, we panic, we fear, we feel we cannot function just by ourselves. yet that is all we came into the world with anyway.

 

sorry if this post comes off confused sounding.... i am really really tired lol

[Silverbirch]

Hi Ginger! One reason I've heard why sometimes the attachment can happen is that the people's boundaries merge. Like you, I'm hoping the thread stays alive for a while and there are lots of contributions.

 

Thanks Charity. I think as far as losing relationships, I think of people like both sets of my grandparents and LOTS of people in my family who had happy marriages that last for decades. I don't know if life has just changed and this isn't going to happen very often anymore, but they definitely didn't lose each other, but I do think I know what you mean. Maybe a lot of it is about living in the present, and appreciating what we have in the now because we can't know what is around the corner and how life changes, often very suddenly.

[charity]

what i meant by ultimately losing each other is that we will all die eventually. so unless they die together, then she will have to bear losing him or he will have to bear losing her.

[gingerlemon]

Hi Ginger! One reason I've heard why sometimes the attachment can happen is that the people's boundaries merge.

 

Can you explain a bit more what this means?

[Silverbirch]

Thanks Charity. That sounds right.

 

Gingermelon, this is what I mean and I think what the author and artist was representing, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

link removed

[DoGGYtREAts]

hey!

 

well...glad you made the smoking comparison...helpful for me to understand where you're coming from as a fellow former junkie!

it makes sense to me on those terms. a subtle process of brainwashing almost...isn't it? we find clever ways to get around our own good sense. anything to keep ourselves in a position where we can indulge without feeling lousy about it...even if it's completely irrational. seems to fit the definition of delusional...doesn't it.

 

seems pretty easy to fall into that kind of trap too. becomes a new way of thinking. becomes THE way of thinking. and it's so easy to justify to ourselves...and to others...because we're so wrapped up in it.

 

Very good comparison there. I haven't Really thought about how it pretains to relationships, But as a Chain-smoker and former hardcore Stonner, I can relate to that anology. I used every justification in the book for my daily weed smoking...

"It keeps me calm", "my life, my choice", All that typical rubbish. odly enough i fell into this cycle at the same time that i was in an emotionally abusive relationship- So perhaps Having entered into a pattern of Negative attachment (and Justification for it) it became an extension of that to use substances in the same way? Odd how our mind does so much with out us realizing it.

[gingerlemon]

Thanks Charity. That sounds right.

 

Gingermelon, this is what I mean and I think what the author and artist was representing, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

link removed

 

Thanks SB - interesting! I like that illustration, there's a lot to that, I think.

[Silverbirch]

Hi Doggytreats! Well, I hadn't thought about how the negative attachments can go hand in hand. I think you are probably right to see how there might be a link between your attachments.

 

Hi Gingermelon, re the illustration, I think that the author was probably using the illustration to explain also how we can have a "psychici" hold on our exes. How many times have we read on ENA about how exes often have a way of contacting the dumpee (or sometimes dumper) when the former has finally detached in at least a degree and feels as though they are getting on with their life out of the relationship. She is saying that the push/pull can happen through sensing each others energies. I think it's possible.

 

This discussion is helping me to think through my own attachmentsand delusions related to them.

[DoGGYtREAts]

Hi Doggytreats! Well, I hadn't thought about how the negative attachments can go hand in hand. I think you are probably right to see how there might be a link between your attachments.

 

Hi Gingermelon, re the illustration, I think that the author was probably using the illustration to explain also how we can have a "psychici" hold on our exes. How many times have we read on ENA about how exes often have a way of contacting the dumpee (or sometimes dumper) when the former has finally detached in at least a degree and feels as though they are getting on with their life out of the relationship. She is saying that the push/pull can happen through sensing each others energies. I think it's possible.

 

This discussion is helping me to think through my own attachmentsand delusions related to them.

 

Yep. And i've found Further evidence of it. During that time I kept Acusing my Self for the Treatement My emotionally abusive ex was giving me (Again negative attachment, Followed by trying to Rationalize and justify her behavior). During this Same time i followed the same pattern for my Marijuana abuse. (negative Attachment, then rationalize and justify it) Even after counseling and my family trying to force me into detox i went right back to both the relationship and the pot.

 

A year Later I met my current fiancee, And Having borken the merry-go-round cycle with the ex I also Found it fairly easy to get off the pot on my own. Funny how that works. Im still around it and have friends who use pot- I still on rare occasion engage in a toke (maybe 2 or 3 times a year?) but yeah.. Breaking one attachment made the other one minimal and easy to overcome in my situation.

[stuka80]

I have been reading a little about this and the view that we need to abandon or control our attachments in order to end suffering. Has anyone thought this out with regard to relationships, and what are your thoughts on it. Thank you.

 

What you're referring to or that book rather is an ancient philosophy called "Stoicism". Basically saying that you have control over 3 things;

 

1. your mind

2. your thoughts

3. your actions based on those thoughts

 

Everything else is outside of your control so there's no point in worrying about it. Live according to the nature of things. People die, possesions come and go, reputations are fleeting, relationships end, etc. accept when things happen that are beyond your control and only worry about what you do based on those 3 things. I personally like alot of what stoicism teaches though i dont agree with everything. Stoicism was prevalent in the western world before the Roman Empire closed down all philosophy schools when Christianity became the dominant religion. Now it's hardly a memory.

 

here's a quick breakdown of it.

[gingerlemon]

Hi Gingermelon, re the illustration, I think that the author was probably using the illustration to explain also how we can have a "psychici" hold on our exes. How many times have we read on ENA about how exes often have a way of contacting the dumpee (or sometimes dumper) when the former has finally detached in at least a degree and feels as though they are getting on with their life out of the relationship. She is saying that the push/pull can happen through sensing each others energies. I think it's possible.

 

That's a really fascinating thought. I wouldn't discount that, either. I also find the initial stages of attachment through infatuation absolutely mind blowing because I just don't understand it. When I get infatuated with someone it usually happens before I hardly know them, but it can still be so extremely powerful and I'll feel drawn/attached to this person in really intense way. I just don't understand how that is possible, but it's happened to me many times.

[gingerlemon]

What you're referring to or that book rather is an ancient philosophy called "Stoicism". Basically saying that you have control over 3 things;

 

1. your mind

2. your thoughts

3. your actions based on those thoughts

 

Everything else is outside of your control so there's no point in worrying about it. Live according to the nature of things.

 

Quoted for truth. So extremely important, and so easy to forget.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks Stuka, I guess Buddhism has very similar views about our minds, thoughts and actions. I'd like to take a bit of a look at stoicism.

[Silverbirch]

Have had a setback this morning, and really needing to focus on freeing myself of negative attachment - wanting to be back with my ex who no longer wants to be with me.

[gingerlemon]

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. What I've done in that situation is to re-live (remember) the moments when I was rejected. If I focus on them, it helps me internalise that it's over and re-mobilise my self esteem. It's painful, but it's for a 'greater' purpose.

[Silverbirch]

Thanks Ginger,

I've been trying some healing visualisations. I have actually been thinking those things and also saying things to myself over and over about the relationship being ended. To be truthful, I don't know if it's so much that I feel hurt by rejection because in this case, I believe the breakup was more about him fighting his inner demons than anything really major about me. What I feel most is just loss.