Major setback with moving forward ...

[sweety74]

As per my previous long winded posts, my husband and I have decided to end our 9.5 year marriage due to ongoing arguements, and his temper tantrums which have become more frequent and became physical last time with him grabbing me by the arms and when I did the same back to him he flung me aside and gave us both a fright.

 

The week after it happened I was so angry and in shock at what had happened, it was easy for me to shut off my feelings towards him and I felt happy and relieved that we were parting, and even excited at the prospect of a new start. I've done things to make sure I take care of my appearance and dress well etc. despite whats going on, so I can still feel good about myself. I was feeling strong, and ready to face the difficult time that was ahead. I was having the odd little cry at night, and even in front of my husband when we would start talking about arrangements for the split, but most days I managed to put on a brave face and get through the day.

 

He has been friendly and talkative, Ive found it hard not to chat with him and sit on the couch and watch movies with him. At the end of the night we go to our separate beds, but at this stage, we haven't really felt the reality of the split yet as we are both still in the same house. He is still making a cup of tea for me in the morning and last night as it was very cold he got our fire going just for me even though he wasn't feeling the cold. He noticed my change of appearance and told me how good I have been looking lately.

 

Today we actually managed to be around each other without feeling completely awkward, and even sat outside and had coffee together rather than go out of our way to avoid each other, we had a talk about how we were feeling about the impending split.

 

He is feeling so bad about what he did, he is terrified he will lash out again and really hurt me and he feels the best thing to do is walk away so that can't happen. I am the same, not confident that he won't have another outburst and worried someone, me, could get very hurt. With a child to look after I can't afford to be hospitalised or worse.

 

We are both feeling that we have no choice but to go our separate ways. We agree we both have issues with each other that remain firmly implanted in our minds, so that we are never going to get past those issues. We talked about some of the things that have made us unhappy in the marriage.

 

I cried, he nearly cried, he offered a hug, I said no, not when you are the person that caused the problem that has led to the need for comforting....

More talk, more tears, and then... I allowed the hug. And then there was kissing. and then we just held each other. Nice? No - messed up!!!! Because despite all this we aren't going to reconcile. He is now having difficulty being in the same room as me without wanting to hold or kiss me.

After he kissed me he said he was sorry for kissing me and sorry if it had caused any confusion for me - sorry if he had messed with my head, but he did enjoy the kiss and he wanted me to know that he missed me.

 

Ive said, that if we aren't going to reconcile then this needs to stop as its not helping us move forward. Ive told him that counselling is another option to us having to split up - he says that in order to sort his issues out he needs to be completely away from me. He has no option. He also says counselling is expensive, Ive pointed out to him that it is free via family court in this country, if you are about to file for seperation or divorce, they recommend you do the counselling first.

 

I have even perhaps gone TOO far and said that Im hopeful that we still might be able to sort things out after he has moved away. Ive said that, it would be great if after some time apart, we could get our marriage together again, but Ive also said that Im prepared for the possibility that one or both of us may decide that we prefer it on our own, or that one of us may meet someone else.

 

Last time we nearly split, we both dropped hints that we didn't want to split, but in the end he made me be the one to ask if we could try again, when in fact it was him that was in the wrong and caused that particular argument.

 

Am I being manipulated here? is he playing mind games? What Ive done today is totally laid all my feelings out on the table, told him that I want to be honest about how I feel so that we can at least clear the air before we part. Now I'm worried it may make me seem weak if he is trying to manipulate the situation.

 

[lavenderdove]

As long as he says he doesn't want to do counselling, then he really doesn't want to change. And if he thinks counseling is expensive, divorce is many many more times so...

 

I think you need two things here: separation so as not to slip back into your prior mode of operating and to prevent any serious harm/danger, and counseling on your own if he won't go to sort out your feelings and make good decisions.

 

Keep in mind that one of the hallmarks of abusive relationships is honeymoon periods where you get all sentimental and lovey dovey like you did this week, but then the tension starts to build until eventually there is another eruption in violence and the cycle starts over. That is one of the strongest pulls that keeps women in abusive situations, where they LOVE the honeymoon period where there are all these professions of love and stolen kisses etc. This is playing out just like any other cycle of abuse, and don't confuse the good times with thinking the bad times won't show up again, if he is not willing to go into counseling and really examine himself and change his behavior.

 

So yes, you are being manipulated if his response is anything other than, 'Yes, i will go to counseling with you, starting this week.' He's now just working the 'honeymoon' phase and manipulating you, so don't fall for it. If he's serious about changing, he WILL go to counseling and not complain about it. I would just go back to your original position, that the only thing that can fix an abusive relationship is counseling, and if he won't go, then you start the separation process and consult an attorney.

[sweety74]

Thanks so much AGAIN lavenderdove for taking the time to read my post and reply. Thank you for your straightforward and sensible advice. As I said, this has all totally confused me so I needed a level-headed answer to this.

I have told him that its up to him now, continue with his move away, in which case he is not to try and get hugs and kisses from me, OR come up with a solution to sort things out which is counselling in which case we may be able to look at reconciling.

Hard to stick to my guns now he's gone all gooey but like I told him, we need to remember the events that brought us to this point.

[lavenderdove]

Just remember that 'gooey' is just a trap to hook you back into the cycle of abuse again. He may have those 'gooey' feelings, but that doesn't change the fact that he is unwilling to sign up to do what it really takes to stop being abusive. What you need to see at this point is humility on his part (i.e., him saying things i was totally wrong, and i will do anything and everything it takes to change including going to counseling), not just feeling sorry for himself and horny (as in him saying 'i miss you' and 'i want to kiss you').

 

The truth is words and kisses are EASY and gratify him, and change is hard and uncomfortable for him and he knows it (and may not even feel any great need to do it). Most abusive men learn early on what the words are that their spouses love to hear, and they use them to suck the woman back in again. Don't fall for it. Someone who is genuinely remorseful and who genuinely wants to change will do whatever it takes, including counseling. Everything else is just noise and you should ignore it and proceed with your divorce plans if he refuses to get serious about changing himself and stopping the abuse via counseling.

[sweety74]

All Ive had is "I screwed up - really badly" "I can't believe what I did - It scared me" "I need to sort myself out, but I cant do it when Im with you - I have to leave" "you deserve better"

When I questioned him about what he plans to do to sort out his anger problem when he leaves, he said he had something organised. So far from what I can gather this involves going out to his brothers bush hut reqularly to have quiet time by himself. As stated he has not told his family that he is moving in with, the reason why we broke up, just that we have "grown apart"

If I really loved someone so badly that I couldn't bear to be without them, and accepting counselling and comitting to attend was all that was required to save the relationship, I would do it. Why is it most males prefer the easy option of simply walking away, nursing their wounds and moving on?

 

All I know is I can't dwell on this any further and like you said lavender dove, unless he comes to me stating he is ready to try counselling, the split is going ahead.

[John Bendix]

You posted,

 

"Why is it most males prefer the easy option of simply walking away, nursing their wounds and moving on?"

 

The expression, "all generalizations are false, including this one", comes to mind.

 

 

Actually, empirical data shows, that in most cases, it is the female that walks away from a marriage.

 

Trying to give advice in the situation that you have described is not at all that simple. To say that either he does this or I do that, is a form of passive aggression. Not judging, just pointing out. Leaving it all on him may be a pre-emptive attempt to clear yourself of blame for a failed marriage, as so many partners do. In doing so, you will probably seal the fate of the imminent seperation. One person attempting to make change does not seem to save troubled marriages.

 

If you do want to try and repair your marriage, you might need to take responsibility for the problems in the marriage even if you feel that he has caused most of them. Both need to make changes. Changes in how they react and relate to one another.

 

Counseling, even without him, is a start. He may even induce him to see his flaws and attempt to work on them. Then you both can work on all of the problems together for both of your sakes, individually, as well as the union. Remember that there are many different types of counseling approaches especially when it comes to couples.

 

A good marriage or couples counselor will stress meaningful communication as an attempt to remedy the problems that exist in the relationship. They will try to teach their patients how to communicate since none of us has ever taken a course in how to do so. Especially important is learning communication skills in intimate relationships where the emotional reactions run at their highest and therefore, so potentially volitile.

[sweety74]

Thanks thats very helpful and I will take on board your comments. I am considering getting counselling myself, so I can figure out what I have done to contribute to this situation, and avoid it in future.

[lavenderdove]

^^

'To say that either he does this or I do that, is a form of passive aggression.'

 

No, this is not passive aggression... she is in an abusive relationship that has spiraled into physical aggression, and deciding he (or they) attend counseling (with or without her) is the only way to protect herself and her child. This is not a simple problem of communication, because the second physical violence comes into play, it is about violence and his inability to control his temper and his inappropriate response to frustration.

 

When 'normal' people fail to communicate there may be yelling or anger, but grabbing a toddler by the throat or assaulting his wife is not about bad communication, it is about domestic violence and not excusable or in any way her fault. He has to own that violent behavior, and blaming the woman or lack of communication for that is unacceptable.

 

The only rational response to any physical violence in the home is to walk away from it, and consider counseling to evaluate whether he is safe to live with or can genuinely break that cycle and stop the violence or not. Until that is determined she must get out of the home and away from him, especially if he is making statements about being afraid he can't control himself unless they separate.

 

John, i know you are obsessed with the 'walk away wife' syndrome and seem to apply it to every case on this board where a woman says she wants to leave her husband, but this OP is not leaving the marriage because she is bored with the marriage or family life, she is leaving because he is physically assaulting her and also threatens their child and serves as a terrible role model for him.

 

So sweety74, please do immediately what is right to protect your safety and your child's safety, which is to separate from your husband. Counseling for yourself is a good idea, but know that violence against you or your child and his inability to control his temper is NOT your fault. Regardless of how angry or frustrated he gets, attacking you or your child is not acceptable and you must protect both of you (and get away from his bad role model since domestic violence is learned by children in the home by watching their father abuse their mother).

[sweety74]

Thanks Lavenderdove, your advice is extremely helpful. While I first came to this website hoping that someone was going to tell me not to break up with him and that everything would be okay and that the marriage could be saved, I am seeing that the break up is definitely necessary.

 

Today while having a cleanup I came accross his legal documents from his custody and protection order case filed against him by his ex partner. His version of her when we first met was that she was a horrible person who just sat at home while he worked, demanding that he provide everything she needed and making life difficult for him. Over the years of knowing her, while she is a bit outspoken and thinks she knows it all, she doesn't seem to be that bad of a person.

 

The events she describes when they were together range from him kicking a car and denting it when she was tyring to help him with general repairs on the car and it went wrong, throwing their child onto a couch because he would not stop crying, to pushing her so that she fell back against a door - while holding their son who was 2 at the time, to calling her an f***n b****, and telling her "come on then, come on! as if asking for a fight" This was well after they split and there was arguements over custody.

 

I saw this document early in our relationship - he openly let me read it - but he had painted such a bad picture of his ex, as being someone who stretched the truth, created situations to make him look bad, and just generally made his life miserable. So i believed that he had been the victim in that situation and because he hadn't been anything like this to me, believed it must have been his ex that made him this way.

 

My experience of her is that she could be nasty and hurtful when they had arguements and even make it difficult for my husband to see their son, she didn't handle the split well. But she, has changed for the better over the years and especially since finding a new partner.

 

Reading the document again only confirmed for me that he has a serious anger problem that he needs to address if he wants to have a successful relationship

 

It would just be so much easier if he was a complete jerk all the time - when things are going well he is the loveliest guy out and to be honest Im feeling sorry for him these days, he is looking down, tired, stressed. Each night I leave the lounge while he sets up his bed on the floor in there, I say goodnight, he looks quite despondent. Its hard. There is a nice guy in there but the nasty temper guy is the one that makes the biggest impression these days. I hope he gets the help he needs, if not for me and to keep our family together, for the next person he decides to have a relationship with.

[lavenderdove]

It should tell you something that he has had this problem in the past, and he didn't learn from it... past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, unless the person has done serious work in therapy to overcome negative behavior patterns.

 

And yes, perhaps he is that sweet guy, but he is also that guy who is vicious and can't control his anger and feels no need to seek professional help for that, even though he will now be losing his second family over it... he must feel justified to do it deep down, or he would agree to counseling and working on it rather than just wandering off to the next relationship.

 

And abusive guys ALWAYS blame the woman, as in 'she deserved it', or 'she pushed me into it' or 'she's a witch...' yes, people can be stupid by escalating arguments, BUT physical violence is not an appropriate response. If something gets out of hand, they can walk away from it, and slipping into violence is a choice and a control strategy. Refusing to get treatment to stop it is also a choice, and a choice that indicates he either doesn't take it seriously, or doesn't believe he is wrong, or would rather end a marriage than admit he was wrong to use violence on his loved ones.

[lostandhurt]

sweety,

Counseling is important for you with or without him. John was pointing out that doing anything to provoke the other into doing something is not good. No one has said you are a walk away as you have put much into trying to figure this out and you don't have some fantasy that ridding yourself of him will magically make you happy. To me I can see your husband not walking away from your marriage but allowing his pride and ego to run the show. If he went to counseling it would be like shouting to the world that he has a problem he can't fix alone. Once again his ego is keeping him from doing what he knows is best. He will not be able to make the repairs needed by himself.

Divorce should never be taken lightly and done in haste. I think you are doing fine and because you have been honest and open with him and you will have no regrets later. Having second thoughts is common so don't beat yourself up.

Counseling is expensive but divorce is 10 times at least!!! Your marriage doesn't have a dollar amount on it anyways. If you both went deep into debt and came out of counseling happy, loving and caring I am sure you both would agree it was well worth it. Don't let money stop either of you from seeking help. There is much work to be done here on both sides now and for the future. In the end no matter what happens your son will need both his parents.

 

Lost

[sweety74]

Thanks so much everyone who has replied. You have no idea how much you are helping me to get through this and make sense of everything. I'm still hopeful he will realise offering to go to counselling/anger management would be a step to stopping this divorce from going ahead, before everything is said and done, but if not, then I know he will never change and the split is for the best.

[lostandhurt]

You can only control what you do sweety. He may very well realize it to late and you will be gone. Most guys don't get so many chances and the wake up call comes to late as the wife has checked out and allows her ego to let the marriage continue to die.

It took some time to get here and if it is to get better it will take work, undertsanding and time to grow as a couple. Your husband is so close to his problem he may never be able to see it clearly without guidance from others that have been in his shoes. Make an appointment and if he comes along great but if he doesn't you will be able to get some help for yourself. Not having regrets is a wonderful thing. Especially when your little one looks you in the eye and asks those tough questions.

 

Best wishes

Lost

[journeynow]

The truth is words and kisses are EASY and gratify him, and change is hard and uncomfortable for him and he knows it (and may not even feel any great need to do it). Most abusive men learn early on what the words are that their spouses love to hear, and they use them to suck the woman back in again. Don't fall for it.

 

I don't know about most abusive men, but this is an interesting and fitting observation. In my case, I didn't consider our relationship abusive, but I recognize in myself how his comforting words and affection could wipe out my concern for behavior that was hard on me and our relationship. I don't know that it is intentionally manipulative, but it does avoid the issue of behavior which would be wise to look at. I can see how it could take place in an abusive situation as well.

 

^^

'To say that either he does this or I do that, is a form of passive aggression.'

 

No, this is not passive aggression...

 

I agree, it is not passive aggression in this case. It is ok to clarify your personal boundaries, and violence needs a clear boundary.

 

I also take John's point that it is important for each partner to look at how they contributed to the problems of the relationship. In this case, sweety74, do you see there is only ONE problem that needs addressing, his violent reaction to you grabbing back at him? It's true you both grabbed and he then escalated the physicality to a higher level. I'm not saying you are at fault for his actions, but I wonder about this line: "you are the person that caused the problem that has led to the need for comforting".... Actually, I just went back and reread your opening post, and the ongoing issue seems to be his temper tantrums? Yes, then I can see the value of time apart and especially the need for counseling. For each of you. There is definitely value for you, even if he refuses. (It may be expensive for him in the short term, but priceless in the long term.)

 

Actually, empirical data shows, that in most cases, it is the female that walks away from a marriage.

 

Emperical data? There are scientific studies on this? I only know anecdotally, but in my experience I mostly know women who were left by their spouses, couples in midlife or later whose partners left for much younger women. I don't mean to make a generalization there, and I don't doubt it works both ways, but my observation goes against the data, so I'm curious about the studies.

[sweety74]

thanks journeynow. Yes it is the continuing outbursts that are the problem. A few posts ago or even in a previous thread, I explained how this is the first time in 10 years that the has actually felt the need to apologise for his outburst, admit he went too far and say that there was no excuse. In the past with the verbal yelling and swearing, and throwing things around or punching walls, there was always an excuse. He would apologise, not for his outburst, but for upsetting me, and go on to say, but can you see why I did it? Can you see my point of view? He just did not get that this was not normal behaviour.

 

In this latest incident, We were having a perfectly good evening, everyone was happy, until he started getting stressed about "something" (he's not even sure what it was) got a bit abrupt, I left the room and he continued to follow me trying to get his point accross and when he became frustrated that I would not show him the respect that he deserved by standing their and letting him rant and rave at me, is when he grabbed me and shook me by the arms. Yes I got wild - I'm so sick of being bullied when these outbursts occur, so I grabbed him, and yes, shook him probably twice as violently as he shook me (he said to me afterwards that he could not believe someone so little could grab and shake with such force - Im 5" 11, but thin) - he got a fright and flung me as though he was about to fling me accross the bed, stopping himself before it went that far.

 

So, this one particular incident, it is hard to say that he was solely responsible for the violence, but I believe he started it, and he allowed it to get out of hand.