I want her to love me so I won't admit she doesn't

[Gullible]

6 months ago a woman started showing interest in me, but I didn't want to go out with her because I thought she just wanted to use me. She was living with another man and she seemed like a party girl who wasn't interested in love or a serious relationship. She was using a cell phone that was being paid for by yet another man she had recently been involved with, and she was still heavily involved financially and socially with the father of her second child, who is 4 years old. So I figured she was already using enough men and I didn't need to get involved.

 

I'm fat and I don't date much at all, and it's been my experience that when a girl says she's attracted to me then she's probably lying and trying to manipulate me. I am 30 and this woman is 43, but she looks as young as me and is absolutely gorgeous in every way. Honestly she's out of my league, which is another reason I suspect that she didn't approach me out of true attraction. I do like her and enjoy her company, but it's always possible that someone is telling you what you want to hear and acting a certain way around you while laughing at you behind your back.

 

So we texted a while and I told her I didn't think a relationship was going to happen. But she wore me down and one night she woke me up with a drunk-dial and wanted to come to my house, and I finally said okay. She said her relationship was over with the guy she was living with, and she was going to move out as soon as she found a new place to stay. Supposedly she had no more physical contact with him, they were just roommates. A couple of weeks later she and her friends went out to a bar/concert with him, but "only because he got them free tickets". But she eventually rented her own apartment.

 

After 2 months of her going out drinking on a regular basis with her promiscuous girlfriends, often without me, and usually to biker bars, I got the idea that she was never going to settle down and stop partying. She had me hanging out with her son and doing family time, but I didn't get the idea that my serious level of involvement was the same on her part. I let it slip out one night that I loved her, and of course she didn't say she loved me.

 

So I asked her what the future of our relationship was. Was she going to eventually start cheating on me? She wouldn't say no. I told her I wanted to have a relationship that would last and not just disappear one day, and she said "well, there are no guarantees in life." She would ask me if I still loved her, I would say yes, and she still wouldn't say it back. So I apologized for trying to be more serious than she wanted, and I told her she was free to go. She said she didn't want to break up, but I broke up with her anyway.

 

2 days later she wanted me to hang out with her and her son. But then she called and said she had other plans, no big deal because I probably wouldn't have gone anyway. Her other plans turned out to be taking a ride with a biker and then sleeping with him. So she got back with an ex, of which she has many, no big deal. 2 days after me, she moved on. I can handle it.

 

But the next week she tells me she misses me. She's still seeing one of her biker exes, but she wants to call and get emotional support and attention from me. I'm not down for that, so I tell her she's a gang bang slam pig for the hell's angels. But she says this guy started drinking again, and he used to beat her when he was drunk. He's not sweet and caring like me, so she'll stop seeing him if I agree to take her back. I do not agree. So she parties for another week or two, and in a moment of weakness I end up taking her back. Now she says she loves me like she's never loved anyone before, nobody makes her feel like I do, and the sex is way better with me, which might have some truth to it I admit. It took being with someone else for her to realize what she had with me. Okay.

 

But of course it's not the same, since I can't help making mean comments to her constantly about who else she's been with and how I don't believe what she says. And her friends now hate me for being "jealous" and "controlling". I'm a jerk for looking in her phone and seeing that she still calls and texts the last guy. I'm "crazy" for noticing that she hid the guy's number under a fake name in her phone. So I break up with her again.

 

So she starts dating other people the same week, again, but I give her so much hell about the biker rally she's going to that weekend that she comes to my house instead. It only lasts a few days and then she says she can't handle my negative questions and comments. But then she calls me back. But then I break up with her again after her friend who hates me makes negative comments about my erections, which I would have preferred my girlfriend not to share with everyone.

 

So she immediately starts dating a new guy, bringing her total to at least 5 guys in 5 months, maybe 7, probably more. That is more sexual partners, during the time she was involved with me, than I have had my whole life. Not that I blame her for my own lack of experience, but I get the idea that sex will never be important or meaningful to her like it is to me. And I will never be special to her like she is to me.

 

Anyway I take her back again, I can't even remember the circumstances at this point, she tells the other new guy that she loves me and is going to try to work it out with me. It lasts almost a week this time, we have an argument and she goes out to a biker bar with her friend who hates me, I don't feel like it anymore and tell her I'm done.

 

And I'm really done, I ignore her calls and texts, I go out with my own friends, I try to move on. I get very depressed, but I try to stop thinking about her. I had bought her some gifts and I gave them away to friends. I get rid of anything that reminds me of her.

 

She is back with the last guy literally 2 hours after I break up with her. 4 days after she was with me, she gets a tattoo on her back of a dogwood tree, and this guy's last name is Dogwood, but she says she just likes trees and she didn't get it because of him. Her only other tattoo is of her son's name.

 

She texts me while I'm out drinking (which I didn't do much before I met her) and I almost cave in and go see her. I drive home drunk instead, crying and hating myself. A few days later she texts me that she's coming to my house. I text back telling her not to come over, and I hide the car in the garage and turn out the lights so she'll think I'm not home. But somehow she ends up in my bed again.

 

That was Monday, today is Sunday. She spent last weekend with Dogwood on a trip out of town. Last night she went out without me again, same old story. We had plans for this morning but she didn't call me until noon. She didn't sleep at her house, she says she stayed at a girlfriend's house. I didn't ask her who else was there. Even if she's not seeing other men, she's still not making me a priority.

 

Today's playlist: "No Self-Esteem" by The Offspring and "Hey Hey What Can I Do" by Led Zeppelin.

[metrogirl]

You are letting her destroy your minute by minute.

 

Reading your post, she clearly isn't mother material let alone girlfriend material.

[Iakasot]

Dude, you gotta get over this whole "she's special to me" thing. I used to think that about some girls I dated who were really bad people, then I realized that deep down I didn't really think that. You gotta realize that she's not special to you, that that's just the desperation talking. You do give off the desperate vibe, I'm sorry, please don't get offended. Sometimes you gotta let go of your limbic system feelings, and see what your higher brain feels, man. She's a bad person, and you know it. If she loved you she wouldn't have done the stuff she did, and said the things she did about you behind your back. Dude, you know it's fake, just block her number or whatever, get a restraining order, whatever you have to do. You gotta get her out of your life.

[metrogirl]

I also wanted to add that you are probably holding on to her because you think you can't get anyone else. You stated "I'm fat and don't date much" which indicates to me that you have low self esteem.

 

Fat people date, fat people fall in love. Love comes in all shapes and sizes.

 

Let her go, get yourself checked for all possible std's known to mankind and work on your self esteem. There are still decent women out there.

[savignon]

It sounds like you knew what you were getting yourself into before this all started. Stop telling yourself "She somehow ended up in my bed".... come on, now! Take responsibility for the mess you're in and then get out of it.

[Gullible]

True, I knew better. I guess I figured I'd give it a shot instead of sitting around the house by myself as usual.

 

As to how she ended up back in my bed when I promised myself I'd never take her back, I guess it's loneliness and lack of discipline on my part. I take the opportunity to argue with her, and next thing you know I'm forgiving her. A little.

[Iakasot]

True, I knew better. I guess I figured I'd give it a shot instead of sitting around the house by myself as usual.

 

As to how she ended up back in my bed when I promised myself I'd never take her back, I guess it's loneliness and lack of discipline on my part. I take the opportunity to argue with her, and next thing you know I'm forgiving her. A little.

 

Just remember, someone like that could never be "special" to you, have a little pride. You're special to yourself, just look deep inside of you and you'll find that she isn't special, not just logic-wise, but feelings too.

[Gullible]

Hey guys, I just broke up with her again. Thanks for the support.

[Iakasot]

Hey guys, I just broke up with her again. Thanks for the support.

 

Good. Now...Do me a favor, next time you wanna get back together with her, post here instead. She's just an addiction, you gotta break it down into what it really is, and see all the bad that you want your life to CONTINUE to be free of by not being with her.

[abitbroken]

Hey guys, I just broke up with her again. Thanks for the support.

 

Please keep it that way. Also, the comment of "she's out of my league." I think you are out of hers. It is clear that while she may have been physically attractive, she was shallow, unloyal, manipulative and dysfunctional which doesn't make her in any sort of elite league. Most people say someone is out of their league when the person has their act together. I suggest you do whatever you can to find worth in yourself - whether that comes from counseling, exercise (nothing wrong with a few extra pounds but going out and hiking with people or doing a group physical activity makes the endorphins flow and you feel better about yourself), or even volunteering also will give you a boost.

[abitbroken]

Good. Now...Do me a favor, next time you wanna get back together with her, post here instead. She's just an addiction, you gotta break it down into what it really is, and see all the bad that you want your life to CONTINUE to be free of by not being with her.

 

Or call a friend and have them come over so they are there also if she bangs on your door. Sort of like an accountability partner. Its easier to say no when you have a witness.

[Gullible]

As for her being out of my league, I'm just being honest as far as physical attractiveness. It's not a coincidence that pretty girls have never liked me, and I've never wanted anyone to settle for me if they'd rather be with someone better-looking.

 

I did start exercising and dieting last time we broke up, I lost 20 pounds and felt great. I stopped when we got back together, but at least I haven't gained it back yet.

 

If I can go back to being alone all the time, that would be a huge improvement. I'll ask you guys for help if I feel like I miss her, and thank you all again for listening.

[Iakasot]

As for her being out of my league, I'm just being honest as far as physical attractiveness. It's not a coincidence that pretty girls have never liked me, and I've never wanted anyone to settle for me if they'd rather be with someone better-looking.

 

I did start exercising and dieting last time we broke up, I lost 20 pounds and felt great. I stopped when we got back together, but at least I haven't gained it back yet.

 

If I can go back to being alone all the time, that would be a huge improvement. I'll ask you guys for help if I feel like I miss her, and thank you all again for listening.

 

You're welcome. I really feel like you can pull through this time, man. =D

 

The phone call to invite a friend over that abitbroken suggested was a great idea. Focusing on making new friends should help too. Good luck, keep us updated and don't hesitate posting if you feel like you need to vent.

 

Remember, you're not alone =p

[abitbroken]

As for her being out of my league, I'm just being honest as far as physical attractiveness. It's not a coincidence that pretty girls have never liked me, and I've never wanted anyone to settle for me if they'd rather be with someone better-looking.

 

I did start exercising and dieting last time we broke up, I lost 20 pounds and felt great. I stopped when we got back together, but at least I haven't gained it back yet.

 

If I can go back to being alone all the time, that would be a huge improvement. I'll ask you guys for help if I feel like I miss her, and thank you all again for listening.

 

Well...I am considered a pretty girl but everyone has their type. If you automatically think a good looking woman is NOT going to like you, she will never approach you because you are giving off 'don't come near me" vibes. And besides, attractive women who are quality women are not skulking around bars for men. They probably meet them through volunteering for a cause they care about or meet them because they are friends with your buddy's girlfriend or something like that. Or they keep seeing you around church, the park, etc and because you become familiar, they talk to you.

 

And have your 'stuff' together - if you have interests/hobbies, enjoy life, and feel good about yourself - you will attract higher quality women. And also be flexible what you mean by 'pretty' - a gal with a pretty face that does her best to keep herself up but is nowhere near a model body, or a gal who is average but has a knock out smile and a sharp wit might be far more satisfying for a relationship than by chasing girls who everyone else seems to want.

[Gullible]

Yeah, I probably exaggerated. I'm sure everyone else doesn't think she's as beautiful as I think she is. I just felt that spark when I first met her, kind of a dysfunctional love at first sight that I have only felt a couple of times. People communicate a lot through their facial expressions and mannerisms, and sometimes we know more about someone than we realize just by looking at them. The brain processes a lot of information and sometimes delivers it as intuition (see The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker).

 

So I pretty much knew from the start that she was "my type", which is to say that she would draw me in and break my heart. I bet masochists recognize sadists when they meet them too. Your "type" will always be dysfunctional as long as you are dysfunctional.

 

But I held out for a long time; she's been flirting with me for several years when I would see her as a customer at my job. But I never got to know her very well until recently. I'm sure I would have seen her differently if I had known her in her natural environment, which is a trashy bar. But maybe not, I'm an observant person and I ignored all the red flags anyway. It's not the first time I fooled myself into believing that someone just needed to be loved and accepted and that would solve everything.

 

But life goes on, work starts at 7. According to our last conversation yesterday, she's not going to call me at work like she's done after the last few breakups. She's never seen me as angry as I was yesterday, and maybe no one has. So it's already different this time, and I look forward to it being even more different.

[Gullible]

She already called me at work. I have her blocked from my cell phone (with a droid you can set anyone's number to go straight to voicemail).

 

I said, "Did you change your mind already about no contact?" And she said she didn't think we were doing "no contact", she thought we were going to be friends.

 

What happened last night was that I went in her phone, as I have done before, and caught her lying about where she was Saturday night. After lying some more, she admitted to seeing Dogwood. But she said nothing happened and that he was just bringing her some stuff she left at his house. She said she lied so I wouldn't worry, and that I shouldn't be nosy. So I told her to leave my house, I may have thrown a few curse words in there, and she left in a hurry. She called later and I held my ground.

 

So her excuse for calling this morning was that her friends were worried about my friend Pete and wanted to know if he was still in the hospital. I said, "Tell them to stop being nosy" and I hung up on her.

[Gullible]

She called me at work a few times last week, I kept it mostly business and kept it short. I heard she's already back with Dogwood (not his real name btw), no surprise.

 

She left me a voicemail Wednesday and I called her back, she wanted advice about something and I told her I didn't care what she did. I told her she was a liar and that I didn't want to talk to her anymore. I was rude.

 

But she called me a couple more times at work after that, for work-related things.

 

She just now left me a voicemail a few minutes ago, and I know there's no good reason to call her back but I kind of want to anyway.

 

Wat do?

[HeartGoesOn]

Besides lying to you, and the fact that she's with another guy, can I ask you where you think this is going? By staying in contact, she has you in the palm of her hand, right where she wants you, and that's where you'll remain while she continues to play with your emotions. You do have a choice here.

[Gullible]

I know it's not going anywhere. I know it will never work, but I've known that for a while now. She has the upper hand in a way, because I can't stop thinking about her and I still have strong feelings for her. But at the end of the day, I'm the one who broke up with her, and I'm the one who put her on no contact. She is the one who won't stop calling me, and she is the one who wants me back.

 

Of course I was also the one who broke up with her the other 4 or 5 times, and she was always the one who begged me to take her back every time. And I was the one who took her back, so I guess she got her way for a while.

 

And she would probably point out that she wouldn't be with that other guy if I hadn't dumped her. She did dump him to get back with me. Twice. She can't be alone, but that just means that ALL of her relationships are dysfunctional and based on the wrong reasons, including our relationship. That would be a concern even without the other issues.

 

What am I even talking about. I have no idea why I keep going over this pointless stuff.

 

I should probably allow myself to feel more anger towards her. I've never called her names, and I don't want to. (I did suggest that she was acting "like" a gang bang slam pig for the hell's angels, but I think I said it in the nicest way possible)

 

The point is that I guess I would still feel guilty for being completely cruel to her, and politely telling her to leave me alone isn't working.

[Gullible]

You gotta realize that she's not special to you, that that's just the desperation talking. You do give off the desperate vibe, I'm sorry, please don't get offended.

 

 

I am a little desperate, although I definitely don't show it in person as much as here. There's no way to tell that story without making myself seem desperate, but I've had enough backbone to tell this woman what's what. At least I alternate that with taking her back.

 

One reason why she won't leave me alone is that she's not used to being held accountable for her actions. I let her know that I would accept her if she acted right, and she thought about it a little. I let her know that I saw through her act but that I could still love her if she wanted me to. And she kind of wanted me to. She's used to getting her way and getting away with whatever she wants, but I broke up with her 6 times which is probably more times than she's been dumped in 10 years. It wasn't enough to make her change, but it was enough to make her see me as different from the usual crowd.

 

And it's not just desperation, it's also loneliness and disappointment. I usually don't date much, partly by my own choice, so I like to think I have more enthusiasm and hope for the relationships I do get into.

 

I dated two girls last year, both relationships went pretty well for a while. I decided to stop short of intercourse with both of them, both times because I thought it would rush the relationship into a more serious stage before we were emotionally stable enough together to get that serious. But it can cause problems either way - some women get offended or wonder what's wrong if you don't want to have sex right away. Whatever.

 

So yes, I overthink things sometimes. But I can't really say I regret not sleeping with those two last year. It wouldn't have made those relationships work out, maybe just prolonged them. It would have been fun, but what good would it really have done me? I guess maybe it would have made me feel better about myself or helped me get a more laid back perspective.

 

ANYWAY, the point is that it was a long time, not months but years, since I had gone all the way with anyone before my current ex. "Current ex" lol. So is she special? Maybe not special because of anything she did for me, or because she's a great person. But she still is the first person I chose to have sex with in a long time, so I chose to make her special to me. The last one I had sex with, I was married to her at the time.

 

And so, through no fault of her own, this woman is one of "the big ones" in my life. That's just how it is, I'll still have to get over it in time, but I won't pretend like she was just another girl like all the rest. Not to me.

[Gullible]

Come on fellows, give me something to work with. I signed up 7 days ago and I already have 102 posts, it's not because I have so much other stuff to keep me busy lately. (13 helpful points, no big deal, who's counting anyway)

 

Bless me with your relationship knowledge. Pep talk me. Impart your wisdom. Command my actions with your advice. Utter evil profanities at me, ward my rock music off.

 

That last part was Wesley Willis, pay it no mind.

[abitbroken]

Come on fellows, give me something to work with. I signed up 7 days ago and I already have 102 posts, it's not because I have so much other stuff to keep me busy lately. (13 helpful points, no big deal, who's counting anyway)

 

Bless me with your relationship knowledge. Pep talk me. Impart your wisdom. Command my actions with your advice. Utter evil profanities at me, ward my rock music off.

 

That last part was Wesley Willis, pay it no mind.

 

We have. We told you to STOP contacting her. And you won't do that. You block her and then you respond to her voicemails.

 

 

I am a little desperate, although I definitely don't show it in person as much as here. There's no way to tell that story without making myself seem desperate, but I've had enough backbone to tell this woman what's what. At least I alternate that with taking her back.

 

You will seem desperate to others if you constantly let someone walk all over you.

 

One reason why she won't leave me alone is that she's not used to being held accountable for her actions. I let her know that I would accept her if she acted right, and she thought about it a little. I let her know that I saw through her act but that I could still love her if she wanted me to. And she kind of wanted me to. She's used to getting her way and getting away with whatever she wants,

 

I doubt if she had a real change of heart. She just merely found out how to push your buttons and manipulate you. If she appears to be faithful...even if she isn't and is just doing it a way so you won't find out..you'll do what she wants. Its not a real transformation.

 

 

but I broke up with her 6 times which is probably more times than she's been dumped in 10 years. It wasn't enough to make her change, but it was enough to make her see me as different from the usual crowd.

 

But if you dumped her 6 times, you also TOOK HER BACK maybe 5 times. Think of it that way.

 

And it's not just desperation, it's also loneliness and disappointment. I usually don't date much, partly by my own choice, so I like to think I have more enthusiasm and hope for the relationships I do get into.

 

If you don't date out of your own choice, you can't blame others for your loneliness. There are people who are lonely for a short phase in their life and snap out of it. But if someone is lonely by nature, sometimes they like to self fulfill their prophesy so they can complain about being lonely OR they are afraid what its like to not be.

 

I dated two girls last year, both relationships went pretty well for a while. I decided to stop short of intercourse with both of them, both times because I thought it would rush the relationship into a more serious stage before we were emotionally stable enough together to get that serious. But it can cause problems either way - some women get offended or wonder what's wrong if you don't want to have sex right away. Whatever.

 

If you want to establish good communication with a woman and do not want intercourse right away, it MIGHT offend a woman if you did "everything but", especially if you dive right into it. If you really want the relationship that slowly blossoms on a solid foundation, you take it slow. You get to know her. Then eventually you kiss her goodnight every time. Then down the road, there is more intense kissing and touching, and then you both have a conversation about sex before you have it. Also - you mention *I* decided to stop short and not *we*. relationships are about *we* and if everything was hot and heavy everytime we got together and all the sudden my boyfriend declared "i don't want to have sex" not just on an occasion but in general, I would wonder what the heck I did wrong, too. If the pace of the physical stuff was slow and a little more over time, or we had a conversation and both decided to delay sex, it would be no big deal that we hadn't had sex yet.

 

So yes, I overthink things sometimes. But I can't really say I regret not sleeping with those two last year. It wouldn't have made those relationships work out, maybe just prolonged them. It would have been fun, but what good would it really have done me? I guess maybe it would have made me feel better about myself or helped me get a more laid back perspective.

 

It was good that you didn't sleep with them because if it just prolongs something that is not working, it is like a slow death. There will be way more heartache.

 

ANYWAY, the point is that it was a long time, not months but years, since I had gone all the way with anyone before my current ex. "Current ex" lol. So is she special? Maybe not special because of anything she did for me, or because she's a great person. But she still is the first person I chose to have sex with in a long time, so I chose to make her special to me. The last one I had sex with, I was married to her at the time.

 

Well, then look at it for what it is. You had sex with a beautiful (on the OUTSIDE) woman. Now you can't say you hadn't had sex in years. Now that the edge is off, you can focus on meeting women without rushing sex or just thinking about a drought.

 

I really suggest that you expand your horizons in where and how you meet women. There are many QUALITY women out there, but they won't be hopping around bars. Sure, quality women may have a girls night out once in awhile or go to a bar to see their friend's band but they won't be trawling them. I suggest you expand your circle of aquaintances in general through volunteering for a cause you support, taking a class, etc etc. If everyone in your circles knows this dogwood guy and keeps you up to date on what she's doing, they are enabling this situation as I am sure the information goes the other way too. Find some folks, even if its not for romance but just shared interests (they could have sisters and friends, etc) to get out of the spiral.

[Gullible]

We have. We told you to STOP contacting her. And you won't do that. You block her and then you respond to her voicemails.

 

 

Yeah but they said to post here instead of contacting her. You know, like calling your sponsor if you feel the urge to get drunk.

 

Anyway, I waited here on the forum for about 4 hours but nobody was posting on my thread, so I called her back. She came over and I asked her to marry me. She said yes! We're so happy, it's going to be beautiful!

[Gullible]

Just kidding, I didn't call her back.

 

 

 

 

You will seem desperate to others if you constantly let someone walk all over you.

 

 

I know, but I think I could have done a lot worse. I did break up with her, and honestly for the past 3 or 4 months I mostly gave her the "tough love" rather than just love. She says "You're too complicated", I say "Yeah well you're too easy." She says "You give me a feeling of peace that nobody else gives me," and I say "Yeah well you give a piece to a lot of people." She says "My son has made a complete mess in his room, it's like he ran a train on these toys," and I say "Well he learns by watching." She says "My friend is lonely, she doesn't have anyone to talk to," and I say "That's because she spent her life chasing cheap thrills, now she's old and alone. Remind you of anyone?"

 

So I didn't let her walk all over me. I don't let her see how much she gets to me, I only share that here. All she knows is that I haven't initiated contact with her for 2 weeks, and when I have talked to her I haven't said anything nice.

 

 

 

 

 

I doubt if she had a real change of heart. She just merely found out how to push your buttons and manipulate you. If she appears to be faithful...even if she isn't and is just doing it a way so you won't find out..you'll do what she wants. Its not a real transformation.

 

 

True, which is why I gave up on her. I gave her more chances than she deserved, but I always noticed that she never really changed.

 

 

But if you dumped her 6 times, you also TOOK HER BACK maybe 5 times. Think of it that way.

 

I told her she was on probation. I told her she had to let me check her cell phone, like a drug addict who has to give urine samples. She just started deleting all calls and texts, so I never trusted her.

 

 

 

If you don't date out of your own choice, you can't blame others for your loneliness. There are people who are lonely for a short phase in their life and snap out of it. But if someone is lonely by nature, sometimes they like to self fulfill their prophesy so they can complain about being lonely OR they are afraid what its like to not be.

 

Well it's partly my own choice, and partly because I don't have many opportunities. I have moved to different cities a few times, for my job, so I've found it hard to keep a circle of friends. Most of the women I've dated are people I met through work, including this last one. Also it's easier to stay single when you aren't extremely attractive, but I try to stay positive.

 

 

 

If you want to establish good communication with a woman and do not want intercourse right away, it MIGHT offend a woman if you did "everything but", especially if you dive right into it. If you really want the relationship that slowly blossoms on a solid foundation, you take it slow. You get to know her. Then eventually you kiss her goodnight every time. Then down the road, there is more intense kissing and touching, and then you both have a conversation about sex before you have it. Also - you mention *I* decided to stop short and not *we*. relationships are about *we* and if everything was hot and heavy everytime we got together and all the sudden my boyfriend declared "i don't want to have sex" not just on an occasion but in general, I would wonder what the heck I did wrong, too. If the pace of the physical stuff was slow and a little more over time, or we had a conversation and both decided to delay sex, it would be no big deal that we hadn't had sex yet.

 

 

Yeah, of course if a relationship is moving forward then you're probably moving towards sex at some point. It's true that I might move too fast sometimes and then decide I don't want to move THAT fast, so maybe I send mixed signals. But I don't think any of my exes can complain. If we were headed for a breakup and I saw that, I didn't "hit it and quit it". Or if I gave someone a few climaxes and I didn't feel she was returning the same level of effort for me, then I feel justified in stopping there instead of giving her more chances to be selfish.

 

 

 

 

 

True.

 

 

 

I really suggest that you expand your horizons in where and how you meet women. There are many QUALITY women out there, but they won't be hopping around bars. Sure, quality women may have a girls night out once in awhile or go to a bar to see their friend's band but they won't be trawling them. I suggest you expand your circle of aquaintances in general through volunteering for a cause you support, taking a class, etc etc. If everyone in your circles knows this dogwood guy and keeps you up to date on what she's doing, they are enabling this situation as I am sure the information goes the other way too. Find some folks, even if its not for romance but just shared interests (they could have sisters and friends, etc) to get out of the spiral.

 

 

I don't go to bars much. I went with her because that's her thing, but I didn't meet her at a bar. I was going to an open mic night at a bar for a while, to play guitar and sing some of my original compositions, but I can do without it.

 

And nobody in my circle knows Dogwood, that info comes from some of my ex's friends who have taken my side. They also want to introduce me to their single friends. Well, well, well.

 

Thank you for the response, I know I type a lot and I appreciate you taking the time. I can't give you another helpful point cause I just gave you one yesterday.

[Gullible]

-sigh-

 

I never called her back last night, but she called me today at work. She ordered some things, so I put together her order because I know what she likes. I tried to simply do what I would do for any customer, but obviously that is impossible on several levels.

 

It involves some matching of colors and styles to her personal tastes, so unless I do a bad job on purpose then I'm effectively doing something nice for her. The situation sucks. I'm probably the only person on this forum who is trying to have strict No Contact but instead is forced to send flowers to his ex. But I try not to think about it too much.

 

I could probably stop selling to her place of business if I wanted to, but she's just an employee there and not the owner. So that would be stupid. That means I have to talk to her, and I'm not handling it as well as I would like. If she just kept it business, it would be a lot easier.

 

Abridged conversation:

 

"Hey, thanks for the stuff. Everything was wonderful."

"Okay, glad you liked it."

"There are spiders all over my apartment."

"Get your boyfriend to kill them."

"I don't want to talk about him."

"Aren't you trying to have a friendly conversation? Don't friends talk about their boyfriends?"

"No."

"Well there are a lot of things friends don't do, but I don't have time to list them all."

"I backed into a woman's car leaving the bar, she got mad but we were both drinking so we didn't call the cops."

"You should have said 'Get over it, a lot of people have rammed me from behind.'"

"Friends don't say things like that."

"Well you weren't friends with her, so you could have said it."

"LOL stop."

"At least you didn't kill anybody while you were driving drunk, you can't cry or beg your way out of that one."

"I don't have any real friends."

"You have to be a friend to have a friend. Friends also don't lie about going out drinking with exes."

"I didn't lie."

-click-