rich 1517 - breaking down their barriers

[rich_1517]

to Steve:

i have been thinking about your situation. you have two choices, one cut her off or play the game.

 

cutting her off will either make her come around for the first part of getting her back or it wont. meaning she may not have had to feel your loss yet and actually seeing it for real may scare her. what you do then you should talk to Beec or Danmial about.

 

playing the game would be saying "hey we can still talk, i understand this has been hard on you" then cut contact start dating. when she asks how you are doing tell her you are dating. you do not tell her how you feel, you do not let her see you suffer, you dont ask for a damn thing.

 

both say strong things, i am indpendant, i can live without you, i will make my own choices. i have been doing number two for a while, when i am on the forum i pur out my guts and look for answers, with her i am calm, no demands, appreciative, etc. i dont let her see feelings. she may know intuitively but she has no words from me, so i create doubt about me waiting for her.

 

that would be my advice, you cannot go on the way you are if she thinks she can run to you whenever, and thats your first move. when she calls, whcihc she willand picks a time to meet or talk or even that phone call, say thanks for calling, "oh monday? cant. listen i have to get going, can i call you tomorrow?" then you come back here and look for what to do.

 

 

as in my case the first steps are the hardest. i will not go to the factory tour, it would be fun, the three of us have a blast. but if she is unwilling to come to middle a little more, then i have to start sending little messages of im not for free.

 

it is too early to tell her im dating. it sounds selfish but she has chosen this ground by: not kssing, saying friends too many times, no effort by her to rebuild, letting me do all the work. but still expecting to do things. its true her comfort zone needs to be rebuilt, so does mine, but also her nervous zone about losing me to someone else. so its doubt. doubts about if she has me.

 

this is using that taken for granted against her, if she will be apathetic about the relationship (or lack of), then i will start building a different future, while i am still around.

 

over the next two weeks or so we will find out how she feels. i will be busy then show up, then if she blinks again (calls to do something) i will try and create some excitement, etc etc. its a game

 

Steve if you are still listening. if you want this girl yo have to become the better competitor. go buy love tactics, its a good book for either rebuilding your self for you or her. this guy may be a jerk, be the better guy.

[SteveNaive]

I am happy that I can gain so much strength out of the advice I get here. This is really helping me more than all I read and talked in the last couple of weeks. I have to say I kinda admire your strength saying that you do not have the time. I know it is what I said, yet I don't know if I can act up to my own advice. But the strength I gain from this here might actually help me to do so. Right now she has got me scared, that I'll lose her if I don't. I shall not show. I shall not show, how much I miss her, I shall not show how much she means to me. I shall not show how hurt I am. Maybe it worls...if not...well, that's life then I guess?!

But I really think that you are going a good way with your problem. I just hope that things do turn out as we think them to be...in the end human beings are just not rational...

[rich_1517]

Steve

 

its hard to make that first step, start thinking out of the "any move i make will end it forever" mode. i know it well. strength comes from a couple places, and reasons to find it.

 

1. is what you have worth it? i mean what you have right now? is it acceptable? can it go on this way

 

2. think long term built on self respect

 

3. start thinking how would the guy you were before this all happened handle this?

 

4. get busy, work out, etc etc. stay distracted, strength comes from emotional distance from the addiction of HER.

 

well i called and said i would love to go, but i really want to hike, i need it right now. it sounds fun. ask me again.

 

she was very flat, and disappointed. this was a big step for me. she started to ask something then stopped. this is the first.

 

tipping the scales is not easy, but man it feels right. i kept the conversation moving around, not letting it sit. then said have a great time.

 

create doubt.

[DaisyB]

Oh, I've missed you all. . .

 

I haven't been able to log on since Tuesday, when they did the "improving the server" thing. Hope I'm able to post.

 

Rich -- it sounds like she's still interested, just still skittish. . . and I think you're doing the right thing. You still want her, so you're playing a long term game, but you aren't letting that stop you from moving on and even dating other women. If she invites you to do something and you have other plans, I would tell her so (painful as that is!) and suggest an alternative day/time if appropriate. (You're right -- I wouldn't mention that your "other plans" are a date -- not just yet. Be mysterious.)

 

I would still offer to help her move, just not on Saturday.

 

When you're strong enough to do so, I would suggest a date. But I think this is only appropriate when you're able to go on it without pinning all your hopes on that date.

 

I have much news on the situation with my ex, as soon as I update my thread. Of course the action starts when I'm not able to post and get your opinions!

 

SteveNaive -- I'll post on your situation soon. [/i]

[DaisyB]

Just read your latest, Rich -- congratulations! That is a huge step. Don't worry if she seems angry or upset right now -- she's just confused. And that's good. . . now, if she contacts you, you can be as nice and charming as can be -- but still decide to do your own thing, if you've made other plans. She'll start to want more of you. . .

[rich_1517]

this is rich grabbing both Daisys cheeks and planting a huge kiss. in a brotherly way of course.

 

we'll see, im off to go hiking with a nice woman. its a beautiful day out. i think i will enjoy it.

 

oopps i think i better change where i go hiking. i just realised she may show up with her son as a "surprise" that would be bad. have to play this out.

[rich_1517]

Daisy

 

post it here! im trying to bring as much "getting back together" stuff in one location as possible. sometimes our threads are hard to find and gerat advice and experience never gets seen. even if its just an overview it could others.

[SteveNaive]

Hello again! Well Rich, it seems you have mad a huge step there, congratulations! Wish I could do the same. Will still have to see whether I get the chance. At the moment things are a bit iffy, i have to say.

 

1. is what you have worth it? i mean what you have right now? is it acceptable? can it go on this way?

Well, it was worth it until a week ago. That is my greatest trouble. She asked me to "keep" her and I want to, but the whole situation is so stressing me (maybe it is even myself stressing me, thinking too much) that I actually am losing my feelings. Is that a good/necessary step? I don't think so, because if my love is gone, why would I want her back? What we have right now is definitely not enough, because I do not get anything back from her. At least not when I need. So what I have now I do not want to keep. The love and closeness we had I want to keep, but it seems that it is fading. So unless she makes an effort, no it cannot go this way... She says she wants to make one, but somehow cannot see what it is I want from her... I hope I am assessing this right...

 

2. think long term built on self respect

I am trying...

 

3. start thinking how would the guy you were before this all happened handle this?

Well, technically I still am the same guy. Ok, honestly. I have always been kind of clingy with my break ups. Thus many are good friends today. However in my last serious relationship my gf cheated on me. I was willing to forgive her, but she kept treating me disrespectfully. So I met up with her, gave her a clear letter to never step into my life again and she didn't. But I hated her for what she was doing. I guess he would try to forget her rather than to hold on. Hmm...now you got me thinking! However, this relationship now was deeper, almost to good to be true (except the "end"...), although only 5 months long (in comparison to the two and a half years before...)

 

4. get busy, work out, etc etc. stay distracted, strength comes from emotional distance from the addiction of HER.

Ok, this one is quite clear. However I keep asking myself, if I gain an emotional distance, why would I want her back if she wants to? If I am emotionally distant I am not in love anymore. And falling in love twice is, at least as far as I am concerned, rather unlikely. Not because I do not like her for the person she is or so. It is just...love is not directable, I think. It strikes and it is there. I can't do anything about it. So if it is gone, why would it strike again?! And I cannot think of a way to MAKE it strike again. That is the problem I have with the emotional distance. Or am I subject to a misconception here?!

 

Ok...so as far as I see it now, I have a problem as my love might already be fading. She wants me to keep it awake, that is what she said. At least I might have a doubt whether I really want...right?! She still thinks we are meant to be together in the future. But how am I supposed to do that? Because I live now, right?! Somehow I have the feeling I am going in circles now...overanalyzing?! Maybe I should shut up and see what the next week brings?!

[fontaine32]

Remember, the best way to change a woman's mind is to agree with her!!

[Mix Maxster]

One thing I DO have to say is why are we so afraid of letting go of our most loved one? If they were dead we wouldn't have a choice, as harsh as that is, but what can we do now that will change everything??? I know that if I wasn't around anymore I would want people to live their life and as hard as it may be, dwelling leads to suffering and I wouldn't be happy to see them that way so why should they be? Never forget anyone, but you have to move on.

 

Why is it that we hold on? is it because we think that we love this person SO much that it's why we can't let go? That it's meant to be for the very reason why we just can't get them out of our heads? But we have to ask ourselves, are we holding on to these people because it's meant to be? Or because we're afraid that if we let go of them, that we won't have a handle on what true love really is anymore and will wonder if love is a thing that really exists or if it's a figment of our imagination meant to put purpose into life?

[Mix Maxster]

One other thing I forgot to say, depending on the length of the relationship, most of the time we don't want to think that our time together was all in vain. Like two years were wasted! wasted efforts, wasted time, wasted money, wasted emotions, wasted everything! I mean no one wants to think that the amount of time they were with something meant NOTHING in the end, but it just may very well be that way. One can't go into a relationship thinking that it's automatically going to last forever, but you can't go into it thinking it won't. To be honest with everything, only you can decide if you would be able to develop feelings again. Most of the time we can't forget and that's what creates a HUGE issue when letting go of our feelings. That if we let go we won't want to go back, but if we let ourselves think that then it's going to happen. If you make it UNCERTAIN of what will happen then who knows, but if you sit there and tell yourself that you know if you let go you won't ever go back, well then you're not in the right mindset to want to anyways. So you're holding on for no reason other than the fact you're scared that you really CAN let go if you so want to, but that it'll be gone forever.

 

As I mentioned in the previous reply, sometimes we're afraid that if we let go of something we TRULY loved, that love itself won't be the same thing we always thought it was, that if you can give up on something that you TRULY loved, that it will be harder to hold onto love the next time around and that maybe we don't even know what love is ourselves if we give it up. The choice again is ours, if we choose to believe that when we let go we'll never go back, then we won't want to let go. If you tell yourself that you don't know what the future holds and that you don't know if you will fall in love again or not. One thing IS FOR SURE, you didn't love the person the second you met them did you? Some of us can feel that way, but I believe that's just a "connection" and is lust. Love doesn't happen in one second, it's everlasting. Which is why you have to allow yourself the chance to let go, but don't tell yourself it will never be again or it won't. If you start thinking like that, then you'll start acting like that. The last thing you want to do is lose faith in love.

[rich_1517]

Mixamaster:

for 19 years old you one smart cookie. you even use non YOU language making easier to absorb. meaning you dont say you should do this or should do that.

 

you reasons are sound as well. especially around letting go. we are terrified that if let go, even alittle, it will never come back. that we have betrayed our concept of love and that if that one small spark that we feel we are the only ones who hold goes out. it is gone forever.

 

very valid fear. also untrue. i think in my case it she that doesnt want to feel it again, she blocks off emotions are uncomfortable so its easier to not face them and poof, im a friend. she is not in love but loves me. i am in love and love her. now if i can get her to look at the causes, it may work. she sounds ready, we'll see.

 

I think we should try to do one point at a time and not do massive posts. im way guilty of it too.

 

Steve the emotional distance is for clarity, if you are away from her for say two weeks and dont talk or see her and find you dont want her, then you didnt anyway.

 

thats why break ups work or dont work. percieved loss of something taken for granted can create very very strong feelings, or if someone is truly done, relief.

 

if you find after some letting go, cry, greive, whatever you still want her then you know.

[rich_1517]

Steve

love is created by meeting emotional needs, its not completely spark. you can actually create chemistry as well. this break up got me doing some serious reading.

 

what i have learned is combine attention, support, listening, no demands, etc to create emotional dependance. then withdraw it a little. then come back. the goal is to start their subconcous working. the concsious mind makes visible decisions, the unconscous pushes the feelings.

 

so you support their needs, and create some doubt and you end up with attraction. i will let you know if its working.

 

one thing that must exist is respect for you. to not be taken for granted. thats where i am now, creating the fear i may be lost to her. so either she will start to say "great" whew i can stop worrying about hurting him, or oh no im losing him. and suddenly she may find she is ready to smooch.

[rich_1517]

well im on to next steps for me.

 

time is going to start playing a factor. so i have to begin a little more push pull. she made an effort and i said no. but she may not know that doing something with her son is not a date to me.

 

so i will call on monday for coffee. midday, short amount of time.

 

at some point (heres where i need advice) I am going to say this:

 

"when i fell out of love with you, but still loved you this is what i did to find my feelings. becuase you said you want to try and you want to find passion this is my suggestion.

 

i looked back to the moment and moments that i started to feel less passion, it was tied to what you had done or not done. what needs werent being met. thats where i shut down. so i looked at those things and asked myself, was it worth losing you? do those things matter today as much as they did then?

 

so i have to ask you, did my not moving in, or making you feel bad, do you bevlieve those are true today? and can you let go of the disappointment that went with them? becuase what i learned about me was as long as i didnt face my dissapoinment my feelings for you were locked up, i coudlnt see the future."

 

feel free to say anything. email this to allow her time? say it? send it snail mail? dont say it?

[DaisyB]

Very well said, Rich. I think hiking agrees with you!

 

Steve -- I definitely understand where you're coming from. When I first broke up with my ex, everyone told me to get busy and move on, but I was worried that if I tried to move on, my feelings for my ex would go away, and I didn't want that to happen. I loved him and wanted to be with him. I didn't want to fall out of love with him.

 

But I couldn't force him back, so I had to start living my life without him. . . in a sense, moving on. I think taking things a day at a time is about all we can do. My love for my ex hasn't faded (even though I've had days where I "hated" him), but I'm no longer afraid of being without him.

 

Try to trust that your love will be there for a while, and, slowly, try to concentrate on other things. If it helps, remember that being busy creates intrigue from the ex. . . and that will set you up for the situation that Rich is talking about.

[DaisyB]

Rich -- Can you hold off saying it? Since you've had a relationship-oriented talk recently, I would try to hold back on this one. Drink a little coffee, flirt a little (but nothing physical), then leave it at that for now.

 

Did you ever see My Fair Lady? I keep thinking of that song Eliza sings: "Don't talk of love, show me." Now, of course there are times we need to talk about relationships, but sometimes I think most of our love analysis is better left unsaid.

 

(Although I, too, am curious about her feelings on the not-moving-in. Maybe I need to enter this relationship!)

[SteveNaive]

Well, there's news from me and I think I am in the wrong Forum now... I just came home from clubbing. Wanted to get my mind off her and see some other people. Then I saw them, standing in a corner snogging heavily. Oh well, i can't say my world crashed to pieces, because actually it didn't. I mean, I knew they were doing it anyway. And seeing it just showed me, that she is perfectly comfortable with being around him. I do not even feel really hurt about it. Guess my most of my feelings for her are gone already, so my fear has come true...I mean, yeah, you can love someone although you hate him (or her) because for hating someone you actually have to care about that person. And I do not think I do anymore. The questions asked by Rich kinda got me thinking. do I really still want? Guess no...

 

I cannot say that I am totally sure, though. Will see about that next week. Just right now I think there is no point for me (or us) to try to keep up something, even a friendship, cause I do not think that she REALLY still cares about me. So she'd get me and I'd get nothing?! Naw, not gonna happen.

 

The only thing that keeps me at it now is, as far as I can figure it out, the hole in my heart left by her. So I guess that's it, right?

 

(This is the point where you should all jump up and say things like "noooo, don't give up, you are on the right way..." No, not really...)

 

However if something happens I'll let you know...

[rich_1517]

Oh man Steve

well if you are reading this now its sunday morning there. and you are probably feeling pretty bad right about now.....

 

the hole in your heart is a perception of need. you let her in where it was solid already, there is no hole. those things you felt about yourself, how you saw yourself when you were with her are still there. own them.

 

i cant tell you what you saw is supposed to be good. but maybe it will help you to get closure on doubts. and maybe strength for dealing with her bs.

 

i was going to tell you its time to let go anyway. even if you stay in the game, Daisy said it. becuase we have to accept the worst becuase the worst has happened, they left. so greiving is not only ok, its necessary. i found as long as i was angry and hurt i couldnt show up for good times. i was focused on the devastion i felt.

 

i dont know what to tell you right now. you knew this had to be going on, as she was with doing it with you as well. you could still win her back, but do you want to? its harder when theres another person in the picture.

 

Daisy yes i can wait, i wasnt going to do it at coffee, you are soooo right. this is the time to go the other way, she saw some withdraw and words, a no thanks. now its time to show up and see if she likes seeing me more. so yes fun is in order. actually based on her reaction a fun date might be in order too. the conversation comes when it feels right. because maybe in her eyes shes making an effort with this whole thing, so pushing too hard is not in order yet.

 

thanks. steve stay with us. its ok to keep posting here, the future is unwriten and besides you are part of this sick littel family of ours now.

[Exocet]

Hi rich and gang,

 

I've only just finished reading the past 11 pages of posts....and I feel that most of what should be said has been said, so I'll just say something in general.

 

Oftentimes we focus only on the sadness that a breakup has caused us, and we miss the lessons that it has given us. We torture ourselves further when we think unncessary thoughts and do unnecessary things to try to prove to the other that we love them, but is it really that we love them truly, or are we just doing these things to try to win them back?

 

Even after the ex comes back, how much of what we do now, are we prepared to do in the future? The past will always haunt us and follow us around like our own shadows. We can never totally escape it, and we can either let this past dictate our future, or we can just look back on it as a neutral memory, a lesson learnt in time.

 

Rich1517, I fully support you (and everyone else in this forum) who have had their hearts broken in one way or the other. The situations may be unique but the pain is the same. Even now that I've gotten back with my ex (which is probably the desire of everyone here) I still have doubts about whether it will work out again. I will however work hard at it, because if I dont, whats the bloody point of being back together?

 

Thats my two cents.

[rich_1517]

Excocet

well said and good points. its true in my case to much change, too much acceptance of thier ways and wants is really really bad.

 

i hope i have been making some things clearer to her in that the changes i have made were do anyway. she has said she wished she had broken up with me sooner. but i am still up against her feeling not "in love", she doesnt have time for another guy, but sometimes i wonder.

 

right about now she is either beginning to wonder or beginning to let go i think. but ok no more analysis. a very loose playbook at this point. begin to act natural.

 

im glad you are with your ex. i hope that is my story as well.

 

the girl i used to see three years ago, still wants me. i once again had to say its late and escort her out. sounds great right. no i dont want to lead her on. the ex is so far away right now emotionally, desire or even a hint of committment that it really is nice to have someone who wants me as i am. but i have to keep my integrity, i dont do jerk well.

 

I like your quote.

[SteveNaive]

Hello, I am back again.

 

Glad to hear that some of us are actually successful. Rich, I have to say, this thing was supposed to make me feel bad, but as I said, it didn't somehow. However this is not the whole story. I stayed in that club right til the end and lost her out of sight. I did not even try to look for her. Instead I took a place in the middle of the dancefloor dancing away happily for three hours or so until the thing closed. And if she is not completely blind, i guess she must have seen me.

 

When I came home I found she had sended me a text message askeing me how my weekend was and whether we could talk tomorrrow. (I had my mobile locked up to keep me from contacing her.)

 

However I did not reply, I just did not feel like it. This is fairly unusual for me because normally I am a phone addict, you can always reach me even in the middle of the night. So it must have been kind of a surpise for her not to have me replying.

 

Then she called me this morning. Three times so far. I did not answer the phone. She left me a message. That was about an hour ago. She said I was just calling for a chat or *deep breath* whatever. Wellm I will call you later." Her voice sounded kinda sad or at least disappointed because I did not answer... But it might be that she was just stressed because she assumes I saw her kissing yesterday and she thinks that might have hurt me or something...

 

So, what to do now? Some of you said that no contact does not mean nothing at all. So would a chat be ok? I do not know whether I can keep it light and casual though. When I look into her eyes there might still be something there...

[SteveNaive]

Ok, I am weak and I hate myself. I just couldn't take it anymore and sent her a text saying I had a nice weekend and that I had been busy so I couldn't reply. Hope that was not too stupid. Why do I still do this?

 

Ok, I posted something different in my own forum... Now I feel incredibly stupid as now I am waiting for her again. As long as she was waiting for me I was comfortable. I don't think my text was particularly friendly. And in the end she had to wait more than three hours for my reply. Am I chasing her? Or am I hunting her away to that guy? Was it right what I did?

 

And she is still not replying. I guess she now is pretty angry at me, because that is what tends to happen if I do not reply. Although that has kinda gotten better ately. Not really a good sign. So what do I do if she keeps not replying? Try to call her to say sorry that it took me so long. No that would be initiating contact, right? I so wish I hadn't been there yesterday. I can't get that image out of my head. It hurts me more now than it did then. I am going totally looney! ARGH!

 

What shall I do now?

[GeeCee]

Stop hating yourself Steve

 

You have replied to her text. Now do nothing. And I really mean that, as bad as it will hurt. Do nothing. Wait and see whether this encourages her to initiate further contact.

 

Good luck and keep yourself busy.

 

G xx

[SteveNaive]

Thank you GeeCee for supporting. I really am in need of that now.

She still seems to think we are "lovers, just not now" if that concept exists.

I know I will have to wait for her now.

 

It is just I am very scared to make her angry at me because sometimes she can be quite stubborn. Especially when she thinks someone wants to hurt her. Which I do not want to do at all. I wonder though what has changed in me since yesterday night. I was so calm, I actually could sleep really well. Happens not too often lately. Right now I just have a craving to get myself heavily intoxicated in order to forget her. i know it does not really help. At least it would help me to sleep for the rest of the day...

 

Ah, what a fine day for science!

[rich_1517]

Steve

 

oops you added new info. This is good! relax, relax relax.

 

if you want to "undo" a crappy message. here is what i would do. talking might not be a good idea and if you are hammered extremely bad idea.

 

if she has spent a night out with someone else, and then is calling you that night, then in morning these are positive signs. people dont think about others when they are with someone they are happy with.

 

so send a short text saying "sorry if i was crappy, had a moment" and leave it at that. i wouldnt give her too much right now. she is getting scared perhaps at your starting to distance. so heal up and if you want her lets build a plan.

 

go have a damn good sob, imagine all the worst things, get it out of your system and then start looking around at other women. get to cafe and if you cant actively flirt, then just look. start planting some new images in your head.