Ambition?

[CaptainPlanet]

 

Both my examples are women. To underestimate women is to underestimate the human race. You do so at your peril, CP. I understand that you've had bad experiences with that gender, but your position is illogical.

 

That really angers me because it is like you did not even read my posts. I never said women shouldn't try to reach the top. It is like you just want to discredit my arguments by referring to cliche's and trying to label me with prejudices that have nothing to do with my posts. Like you want to paint me as a traditional hollywood bad guy. BIg mean man out to get the poor little woman.

 

I am all for women doing the best they can do and reaching top positions if they deserve too. I am confident they can do anything a man can do. I believe they should be allowed to do anything that they are capable of doing without restraint.

 

I merely made a few observations. Which have nothing whatsoever to do with your mother. I was merely presenting my opinion of what I think ambition is and what is important to an ambitious person using an illustrated example of single person. Not an entire gender.

[annie24]

I think of doctors, researchers, heads of state, heads of large companies, presidents of organizations, etc...

 

That is prestige, which is again, not referring to ambition at all but to something different. Heads of state, large companies and organizations are all fairy tales. If someone told me it was their ambition to be the head of a fortune 500 I would laugh at them. That is the stuff for the nobility, not for normal people. Different to ambition. Which strictly does not need to hurt people or to put other people down. Another thing that women use that term for. 'We're not compatible because I need someone ambitious'. Just a sly way of putting down someone else's life.

 

i think your problem is that you just don't know how to think big.

 

i know several people who have won a nobel prize. I have even worked for one of them!!! I have met senators, heads of pharmaceutical companies, etc.... there are big dreams out there and people who accomplish these things. many of these people weren't born from rich or famous or political families, but they accompished these things on their own. it is really sad to me that you think being a secretary is thinking big. it's not stuff for nobility at all. i mean - look at barack obama - the son of a kenyan immigrant student and a white teenage mother. certainly not the pedigree of a future US president, but he did it. he could have been content to be a secretary or a middle manager or whatever, but his ambitions were to go higher in life.

[LBP]

Women do have a lot of ease in life. They typically do take the easier jobs. I don't understand how you can debate that fact. Unless you think physical work is no harder than manual work. Women don't have the stamina so they're not usually expected to do manual work. They're exempted. thereforee having it easier.

 

That really angers me because it is like you did not even read my posts. I never said women shouldn't try to reach the top. It is like you just want to discredit my arguments by referring to cliche's and trying to label me with prejudices that have nothing to do with my posts. Like you want to paint me as a traditional hollywood bad guy. BIg mean man out to get the poor little woman.

 

I am all for women doing the best they can do and reaching top positions if they deserve too. I am confident they can do anything a man can do. I believe they should be allowed to do anything that they are capable of doing without restraint.

 

I merely made a few observations. Which have nothing whatsoever to do with your mother. I was merely presenting my opinion of what I think ambition is and what is important to an ambitious person using an illustrated example of single person. Not an entire gender.

 

In this very thread, you've said that women are incapable of doing all the things that men can. I actually agree with you on that count. Women are pretty bad at dunking basketballs, for example.

 

But it is clear that your responses have been geared toward the ambition intoxicated women who a person may be unfortunate enough to encounter. My opinion is that this outlook marginalizes the current discussion. To illustrate this point, using your stance as an impetus, I spoke of how the act of ambition is necessarily complicated. My example happened to include my mother and my ex GF, a move designed to undermine your earlier posts.

 

Indeed, I did not accuse you of saying that women should not reach for the stars. I simply said that you should not underestimate that gender. It sets you up for all manner of falls.

[waveseer]

I've lived so far to be comfortable, but I'm finding it just isn't enough for me. There are things I'm motivated to do regardless of their possible reward. It's the only type of ambition that means anything to me.

[CaptainPlanet]

In this very thread, you've said that women are incapable of doing all the things that men can. I actually agree with you on that count. Women are pretty bad at dunking basketballs, for example.

 

But it is clear that your responses have been geared toward the ambition intoxicated women who a person may be unfortunate enough to encounter. My opinion is that this outlook marginalizes the current discussion. To illustrate this point, using your stance as an impetus, I spoke of how the act of ambition is necessarily complicated. My example happened to include my mother and my ex GF, a move designed to undermine your earlier posts.

 

Indeed, I did not accuse you of saying that women should not reach for the stars. I simply said that you should not underestimate that gender. It sets you up for all manner of falls.

 

A move designed to undermine my post, because you entirely missed the point of my post which was to target one particular type of woman, whereas you have extended the conversation to include a defense of all women.

 

I don't seem to notice a lack of american women in very good positions in life to be honest. There seems to be ample avenues of employment for them. I don't consider it to particularly remarkable in todays day and age.

 

I don't underestimate women either. I say that they get given most of the easier jobs because they are not physically as able. I'm also trying to argue the literal definition of ambition. Other people are talking about prestige efficaciousy.

[CaptainPlanet]

Obama did not come from nothing. He had a highly educated family and went to good schools. He was a high achiever all of his life. Make on mistake and you are out of contention for that race.

 

Most of Obama's message seems to be around giving people a chance. I don't think he'd be arguing that anyone can become the CEO of a fortune 500 or even that they should be. He'd be arguing that they have a real chance to become a financial accountant or an engineer at one.

 

Believing anyone can achieve greatness is republican stuff. If you're not in the top 1% then you are no one. To be that sort of person you need an excellent record. You need to be in all sorts of societies honors rolls, know all the right people and the list goes on. Despite best efforts very few people will ever achieve greatness in their lives just a matter of reality here.

 

I've never met a nobel prize winner and I don't know anyone who has. I studied science for almost 2 years. I know people doing PHD's and people with PHD's none of them know anyone who is great either. I think you do come from a privileged background. But I doubt you'd realize that you do, like so many other people.

 

I think you are confusing prestige with ambition. Just like those secretary girls I was talking about earlier. All about the image and the prestige. True ambition does not matter to them.They put down the hard working people of this world who are trying to do their best, because they lack the above prestige. Surely not all women. I was just making an example of a few that I know of who do such a thing.

[equinox]

Lot's of interesting replies so far. Let's try something. Would I be considered ambitious.

 

I have two dreams in life, the first is to play music in front of a HUGE crowd of thousands. I've known guys that have done it and I really want to do it once before I die. I practice music every day and work hard at it.

 

My second goal is to write a book. I practice writing and I'm taking a creating writing course this year.

 

Of course, these are dreams, and I accept they may never happen. My goal in life at the moment is to finish college, and I hate college, get a decent job and build a nice home. With all that and security, I'd be more than happy. Is that ambition?

[CaptainPlanet]

You can write a book while having a real job. Lots of authors did it that way.

[annie24]

i am not confusing prestige and ambition - you are! i've chosen to go to graduate school not to get a prestigious job, but because i have an ambition to study and hopefully cure diseases one day. my ambition is to make a difference in this world by improving global human health.

 

CP - i have to get going, good luck with your life's dream of becoming a secretary.

[CaptainPlanet]

i am not confusing prestige and ambition - you are! i've chosen to go to graduate school not to get a prestigious job, but because i have an ambition to study and hopefully cure diseases one day. my ambition is to make a difference in this world by improving global human health.

 

CP - i have to get going, good luck with your life's dream of becoming a secretary.

 

I have never said I wanted to be one. I have only ever said that those sorts of jobs can be a foot in the door that a lot of young women use. Then I went on to say that they unfairly put down men who are not in a similar position. Which is pretty much true. I guess I should be sensible about this because that is just the ways girls are. What some other people just accept as part of life I have to go and talk about. I was making the comment that sort of activity is not ambition at all.

 

You might have done well. But to do well in your field requires a PHD at the very least and not everyone can get a PHD for numerous reasons. I know a girl who has her honors degree, no intention of getting a PHD who cannot get work as a research assistant. I'm betting most biotechnology graduates do not go on to do much of anything with their degree's. I'm betting a lot do very well too.

 

To keep this relevant if you know you are not likely to be able to make a career out of your dream, what is so unambitious about doing something that will lead to success instead of failure ? If a person has the ambition to become a secretary then that is every part as ambitious as anyone else. The concept is completely relative.

 

Also science is very prestigious. The field is respected and you don't have to deal with any degrading tasks. Your pretty much set on your knowledge and skill which is honorable, and thereforee desirable position to have for many people. You don't just do it because you want to help people. You do it because it makes you feel good. You keep forgetting that I am a person who regrets not going into the science field on one level or another, so I can sort of grasp where you are coming from. But with the added perspective of having not done a thing.

[purpleduckie]

i am not confusing prestige and ambition - you are! i've chosen to go to graduate school not to get a prestigious job, but because i have an ambition to study and hopefully cure diseases one day. my ambition is to make a difference in this world by improving global human health.

 

CP - i have to get going, good luck with your life's dream of becoming a secretary.

 

omg yay! me too!

[purpleduckie]

are you serious?

just because the women in whatever world you live in, chooses to be a secretary then try to study law... it doesn't mean that they're unambitious. i don't see a problem with trying to get your foot in the door then try to become something better (a lawyer). she could just go home afterwork and go out everynight. instead, she goes home and then study. i think that takes ambition. studying to become a lawyer isn't a joke, or else more people would've been lawyers.

 

what i got underlined and bolded? ... you have some serious issues with generlalizing our entire sex.

 

another important point, seeing as though you've been studying science for almost 2 years... i'm not sure how you miss the fact that most science majors can't do much with our bachelor degree. if you want to do research, a master is a minimum. it's unfortunate that your friend failed to do the research necessary for the job...

 

my friend's part-time job is to clean pH meters. it's a pretty crappy mundane task that a monkey could probably do.

[CaptainPlanet]

Entirely missing the point again. The issue is not that the girl is 100% unambitious the issue is that what she had done has not demonstrated a lot of ambition because. She has made a fairly easy and normal transition from school leaver to secretary. And she then decided to study something within her field. Most people would call that more ambitious than the 22 year old male stacking shelves while studying engineering, but I would disagree. Because they male had to over come a lot more difficulties and has a lot further to travel in his career in terms of how far he is from his goal.

 

A comparison would be that same male wanting to be a story manager and getting a TAFE diplome in management. Fact is girls can get into prestigious white collar jobs a lot easier. Not complaining about it that is just the way it is but it is a fact I'd be happier if people accepted.

 

Funny how no one has spoken of that young man, yet are more than willing to jump down my throat because I have a less than perfect opinion of a female. Just goes to show the inherent and heavy pro female bias a lot of people have. The point was that being able to take direct steps into your career path is not necessarily ambition as a lot of people say.

 

Trying to argye against the perception that to be ambitious you need to already be successful. And yes, I think it is quicker and easier for girls to get into white collar work so at a young age it is terrible of them to judge men for not being in a similar position and call them unambitious. Unfortunately that is exactly what a lot of them do. Now for the record I am not anti-woman I am just not 100% pro woman as a lot of other people are. I don't find them sacred and I don't mind pointing out their faults or any bias against men. Call me what you want to call me I don't mind.

 

i'm not sure how you miss the fact that most science majors can't do much with our bachelor degree

 

I think that has more to do with the average science student. As a side note a lot of them can be snobs. Actually one step ahead of you. Not going too far into it but if you do a Science degree and get very good grades there are a lot of opportunities in business and other white collar. You've just got to have the mentality and know how to look. One solid major (you get two) link removed sci could help too. A good degree can always be used.

my friend's part-time job is to clean pH meters. it's a pretty crappy mundane task that a monkey could probably do.

There is a reason I no longer study science.

 

All I am trying to say is that ambitioin is a deeo seeded desire within a person to succeed. It is not their job or where you see them in 5 years. The lowest person in society can be deathly ambitious.

[COtuner]

That is prestige, which is again, not referring to ambition at all but to something different. Heads of state, large companies and organizations are all fairy tales. If someone told me it was their ambition to be the head of a fortune 500 I would laugh at them. That is the stuff for the nobility, not for normal people. Different to ambition. Which strictly does not need to hurt people or to put other people down.

 

Hey, I've met presidents, vice presidents, premiers, CEOs, cabinet members, congressmen, movie stars, sports hall of famers, you name it. I converse with our CEO now and then, who is part of a Fortune 500 company. I have no doubt that if I was willing to sacrifice that I would have a shot at something like that someday. I've often considered running for Congress. I have been told I could do well as a doctor. I have no pedigree whatsoever, I'm a mutt. A job is a job. To me anything is achievable except being born rich or something like that - you have no control over that. Anything else is possible depending on how much you want to sacrifice to get there.

 

That's how I was raised... maybe it's a military brat thing, or whatever