Ambition?

[equinox]

Is driving ambition good or bad?

 

I've just been thinking about this recently and wondering. You see, I have always believed that ambition can be a dangerous thing, history has proven that it can make traitors and criminals out of people (ever read macbeth?) and has caused wars.

 

When talking to my SO at the weekend, we got talking about where we'd like to be in five years. My answer was that I'd like a decent, comfortably paying job and a nice home, that's the limit of my ambition. I know guys who would say they want to be rich and all that but I honestly don't have that drive, I just want to be comfortable and to get there by honestly and hard work.

 

Alot of guys in college have high hopes but some of them I know will step on anyone to get there. To me, it seems utterly unacceptable to do something for yourself at the expense of another. I dunno if it sounds odd but I think honour and honesty mean alot more than wealth and power.

 

Maybe I'm going on a bit there but it's late here Just interested to see what people think about this.

[Blockhead1013]

I think your ambition should lead you to whatever makes you happy, as long as your not doing harm to others. If a nice job and home are something that make you happy, thats probably fine. I'm sure lots of people would be happy with that.

[COtuner]

It's an individual personality thing. I am very very driven, my BF is thinking about retirement already. I think ambition changes throughout life, goes up and down for most people.

[equinox]

It's an individual personality thing. I am very very driven, my BF is thinking about retirement already. I think ambition changes throughout life, goes up and down for most people.

 

 

But if you're constantly driven, when do you consider yourself to have realized your goals?

[IndigoEye]

In a free society you have to have a bit of ambition to survive competition. Don't have to go overboard. It's not so black and white.

 

Maybe count Shakespeare's Macbeth with Blum's "Nothing in excess."

 

Between cut-throat and failure a nice guy can be anywhere in between.

[COtuner]

But if you're constantly driven, when do you consider yourself to have realized your goals?

 

I'm always setting new ones when I achieve the old ones

[Balbina]

But if you're constantly driven, when do you consider yourself to have realized your goals?

 

When you achieve what you have worked your butt off towards, and get started on working your butt off for the next big thing.

 

There's nothing wrong with ambition... if you're ambitious and hard working, it doesn't mean you're step on someone's back to push yourself forward. Obviously, you need to look out for number one and take all the opportunities you have been given, but it doesn't make you a bad person if you prevail and another person doesn't, given the same opportunities.

[annie24]

i dunno - i think this is a complicated question, and i think it depends on person to person. and i think it is harder for a woman to act ambitious. i think people will often say that a woman is a (beep) while if a man acts the same way in the workplace, they say he is ambitious.

 

i guess it depends on what your 'ambition' is, if it is dangerous or not. is it to make lots of money, and who cares who you step on along the way? is your ambition to help the homeless and won't stop until every person has a roof over his or her head? is your ambition to cure AIDS or cancer? is your ambition to help children to read? is your ambition to sell as many records as you can?

[equinox]

I'm always setting new ones when I achieve the old ones

 

But isn't that a frustrating way to live? I mean eventually you will be able to go no further, what then?

[COtuner]

When you achieve what you have worked your butt off towards, and get started on working your butt off for the next big thing.

 

There's nothing wrong with ambition... if you're ambitious and hard working, it doesn't mean you're step on someone's back to push yourself forward. Obviously, you need to look out for number one and take all the opportunities you have been given, but it doesn't make you a bad person if you prevail and another person doesn't, given the same opportunities.

 

The thing I like is that I tend to carry others along with me. I've helped populate the company leadership with great employees who used to work for me and I helped get them promoted into good positions with other managers. I had a reputation for a while as a factory for churning out the next generation of leaders, LOL I tend to do that through mentoring and helping friends find new opportunities etc. So I'm more one to give a boost than to step on someone's back. I get ahead often after helping others get ahead

[COtuner]

But isn't that a frustrating way to live? I mean eventually you will be able to go no further, what then?

 

You'll never not go no further. There's always something to achieve, professionally, personally, etc. Learn an instrument, plant a garden, become CEO, it's all the same to me. I'm happiest when I'm challenged and pursuing something. Otherwise I get really really bored.

[purpleduckie]

of course ambition is good. this is absurd. having high ambition isn't the same as having strong morals. i think you're trying to justify your lack of ambition.

[COtuner]

of course ambition is good. this is absurd. having high ambition isn't the same as having strong morals. i think you're trying to justify your lack of ambition.

 

Bingo - morals and ambition are two separate things, although ambition can be affected by morality / ethics. Clara Barton formed the Red Cross out of ambition and a desire to help people. Bernie Madoff screwed a lot of people through criminal behavior and poor ethical choices.

 

It's all about your personal character first, and what you do with that character second, IMO

[CaptainPlanet]

I think ambition has been turned into a modern pin up word. Has very little meaning. Most people don't understand it either. Ambition basically means to most women ' a man who is already in a good position in life'.

 

To me ambition is the guy who stacks shelves reads the financial review and never gives up on being somewhere better. Not so much the 20 year old legal secretary who studies law part time. Sure she is ambitious in a way but that is more a person who has a career path than it is ambition. Distance between the points - legal secretary at 20 years old wanting to become a lawyer while she is already studying it ? Not that far to go.

 

I hope I made that clear.

[annie24]

I think ambition has been turned into a modern pin up word. Has very little meaning. Most people don't understand it either. Ambition basically means to most women ' a man who is already in a good position in life'.

 

To me ambition is the guy who stacks shelves reads the financial review and never gives up on being somewhere better. Not so much the 20 year old legal secretary who studies law part time. Sure she is ambitious in a way but that is more a person who has a career path than it is ambition. Distance between the points - legal secretary at 20 years old wanting to become a lawyer while she is already studying it ? Not that far to go.

 

I hope I made that clear.

 

so - i'd disagree. to me, ambition isn't only having big dreams, but also going after them. i dated a guy who wanted to be a rock and roll star, but never practiced his guitar. to me, that's just a person with a pipe dream, you're never going to get anywhere if you don't take steps to realize your dream. i think the person who has big dreams AND is moving towards them, that is ambition to me.

[CaptainPlanet]

so - i'd disagree. to me, ambition isn't only having big dreams, but also going after them. i dated a guy who wanted to be a rock and roll star, but never practiced his guitar. to me, that's just a person with a pipe dream, you're never going to get anywhere if you don't take steps to realize your dream. i think the person who has big dreams AND is moving towards them, that is ambition to me.

 

That is efficacious not ambitious. Ambitious is having a strong desire to achieve goals. Typically your definition of ambition is characteristically a female one.

 

To me, on face value, the 22 year old shelf stacker who goes to university to become an engineer is way more ambitious than the 20 year old law student/legal secretary. One got offered a break because she fitted what an employer wanted. Young, cute, female school leaver. The other works hard in a bad job and makes the tough decision to work even harder on study to get ahead in life.

 

An unambitious person would look at his surroundings and become a tram driver, or other semi skilled blue collar. Not the ambitious person. Supporting yourself in a tiring job while studying the most difficult course there is taking on a huge work load to reach a goal - that is ambition.

 

Working a cushy office job and taking 2 law units per year studied online in the comfort of your own home. Not so ambitious. To a lot of people ambitious seems to simply mean 'white collar right now'.

 

Unfortunately for the next 5 years or so that guy will be counted as un ambitious and unintelligent by most young women. Which is really sad. In my opinion those women's careers will plateau after they get married or do not progress through lack of real ambition. So it will all come out in the wash. Then they will blame it on sexism.

[annie24]

it's really interesting to me how you make the examples such that the woman is the one with all the ease in life and is all 'cushy.' i think that shows just how sexist your opinions are on this matter.

 

merriam webster defines ambition as:

 

1 a an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power b desire to achieve a particular end2 the object of ambition 3 a desire for activity or exertion

 

i think if you want to get ahead, you should stop blaming others and focus more on yourself and improving yourself.

[CaptainPlanet]

it's really interesting to me how you make the examples such that the woman is the one with all the ease in life and is all 'cushy.' i think that shows just how sexist your opinions are on this matter.

 

merriam webster defines ambition as:

 

 

 

i think if you want to get ahead, you should stop blaming others and focus more on yourself and improving yourself.

 

Women do have a lot of ease in life. They typically do take the easier jobs. I don't understand how you can debate that fact. Unless you think physical work is no harder than manual work. Women don't have the stamina so they're not usually expected to do manual work. They're exempted. thereforee having it easier.

 

My example was merely to demonstrate that ambition is more about a strong desire. Which is better demonstrated by a person who overcomes difficulty. As the desire must be stronger to want to overcome.

 

A person who simply goes through the motions of promotions is not necessarily as ambitious. We use the word efficacious. Which is what women really want. Someone who is switched on, capable and doing well. Not necessarily ambition which is a word misused.

[annie24]

Women do have a lot of ease in life. They typically do take the easier jobs. I don't understand how you can debate that fact. Unless you think physical work is no harder than manual work. Women don't have the stamina so they're not usually expected to do manual work. They're exempted. thereforee having it easier.

 

My example was merely to demonstrate that ambition is more about a strong desire. Which is better demonstrated by a person who overcomes difficulty. As the desire must be stronger to want to overcome.

 

A person who simply goes through the motions of promotions is not necessarily as ambitious. We use the word efficacious. Which is what women really want. Someone who is switched on, capable and doing well. Not necessarily ambition which is a word misused.

 

how do women take the easier jobs? tell me. i see women in all walks of life now, from construction to medicine to science to childcare. i see plenty of men in office jobs and management. women can deal with PLENTY of pain. what do you think childbirth is? how can you say that women do not have stamina when they push something the size of a watermelon out of the size of a lemon! men don't have menstrual cramps either. i have cramps so bad sometimes that i want to curl up on the floor. but yet, i still go to work.

 

i think in the last 50 years, there has been much more equalization of men and women in the work force.

 

My example was merely to demonstrate that ambition is more about a strong desire. Which is better demonstrated by a person who overcomes difficulty.

 

which is why i think the example of the person who just reads articles but doesn't go to school isn't as ambitious as the person who actually IS going to school and making their dreams a reality. yeah, you can say you want to cure cancer all day, but if you don't get off the couch, what are you really doing?

[purpleduckie]

oh my god. i can't believe i'm actually reading someone talk like this in 2009. oh my god.

[purpleduckie]

Women do have a lot of ease in life. They typically do take the easier jobs. I don't understand how you can debate that fact. Unless you think physical work is no harder than manual work. Women don't have the stamina so they're not usually expected to do manual work. They're exempted. thereforee having it easier.

 

My example was merely to demonstrate that ambition is more about a strong desire. Which is better demonstrated by a person who overcomes difficulty. As the desire must be stronger to want to overcome.

 

A person who simply goes through the motions of promotions is not necessarily as ambitious. We use the word efficacious. Which is what women really want. Someone who is switched on, capable and doing well. Not necessarily ambition which is a word misused.

 

We don't simply "take easier jobs". We also get paid less on average. We're not exempted from manual work, we are DISCRIMINATED against in those kind of jobs. Many employers STILL do not hire girls to do some jobs. Not to mention the obvious biological disadvantage.

 

And the next 2 paragraphs are absurd because you're just assuming things, making it up as you go. We, women, are just as aware as you men are. We know what ambition is. We also understand that people all have different ambition and we are all different.

 

You have no idea what women want, my friend.

[CaptainPlanet]

If you think men and women do an equal share of the different types of work then you are entitled to have your opinion. I'll post a couple of links to see if I can change your mind.

 

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The two bolded clearly demonstrate my the trend. Although some women are doing everything a man has done, it is not the norm.

 

You can plainly see the trends which can represent barriers to entry (assuming we practice equality). thereforee a woman appearing in a white collar job is not necessarily a show of ambition. Merely, something pretty normal.

[annie24]

oh right. secretaries, the most prestigious job out there. seriously capitan planet. no offense to all you secretaries out there, but i am really surprised by your definition of prestigious jobs. How many women are heads of Fortune 500 companies? and how many men? i don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but i can bet that most of them are old white men, not people of color, not women. How many presidents of Ivy League universities have been women? How many presidents of the United States? oh yeah, none.

 

Not to knock the secretaries at all, i think that's an important job, but when I think of AMBITION, I think of doctors, researchers, heads of state, heads of large companies, presidents of organizations, etc... Jobs that no matter how you slice it are not easy to break into.

[LBP]

I don't know what Captain Planet's opinions have to do with ambition.

 

To me, ambition is having the desire to thirst for power, fame, success. This can be good and bad. I know quite a few 'ambitious' people who think of no one outside of themselves. My ex would be one. Basically, whatever was best for her is what she did. It's hard to argue with this line of thinking. That said, it did mean abandoning her best friend when her mother was dying from cancer because that fact was not conducive to her having a good time and succeeding on her exams. Getting marks were more important to her than her friends and loved ones. She'll be very successful one day, I have no doubt, but also very lonely. That's the sacrifice that some people are willing to make.

 

At the same time, my mother was born to a traditional American family of the kind that felt women did their best work at home, raising children and cooking. She put herself through college, fought through suicidal depression, survived a hideous divorce from my inept father and is now the senior vice president at a bank. Formerly, she held a better paying and more prestigious position at Intel corporation, but quit because she wasn't being treated with respect. This is an ambitious and remarkable person.

 

Both my examples are women. To underestimate women is to underestimate the human race. You do so at your peril, CP. I understand that you've had bad experiences with that gender, but your position is illogical.

[CaptainPlanet]

oh right. secretaries, the most prestigious job out there. seriously capitan planet. no offense to all you secretaries out there, but i am really surprised by your definition of prestigious jobs. How many women are heads of Fortune 500 companies? and how many men? i don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but i can bet that most of them are old white men, not people of color, not women. How many presidents of Ivy League universities have been women? How many presidents of the United States? oh yeah, none.

 

Not to knock the secretaries at all, i think that's an important job, but when I think of AMBITION, I think of doctors, researchers, heads of state, heads of large companies, presidents of organizations, etc... Jobs that no matter how you slice it are not easy to break into.

 

How many people are heads of fortune 500 companies ? That is a silly example because it does not really touch the lives of people.

 

Secretary is not a prestigious job in and of itself but it can be used as foot in the door and combined with education can be used to start a better career. My Aunty more or less started out that way and ended up running her own recruitment company. She would not have had those opportunities had she not started at the bottom. Which is what a lot of people don't understand. Sometimes you get stuck because you don't develop transferable skills and it would depend where you are working. But it is a foot in the door. My example was demonstrating something a little bit different from that anyway. Where the girl uses that position as a way of saying she is ambitious when she is really not. Fact is those low down jobs can lead to bigger and better things.

 

Any way the original argument was that you were saying women do not have it easier. I provided those links to show you they do a lesser share of the hardest physical work.

 

I think of doctors, researchers, heads of state, heads of large companies, presidents of organizations, etc...

 

That is prestige, which is again, not referring to ambition at all but to something different. Heads of state, large companies and organizations are all fairy tales. If someone told me it was their ambition to be the head of a fortune 500 I would laugh at them. That is the stuff for the nobility, not for normal people. Different to ambition. Which strictly does not need to hurt people or to put other people down. Another thing that women use that term for. 'We're not compatible because I need someone ambitious'. Just a sly way of putting down someone else's life.

 

I think ambition is very misused. Especially to the extent that it can hurt other people. As the OP said he just wants a comfortable life. Which is ambition enough in my opinion.