Am I too nice or am I in a destructive marriage or, both?

[Soon_tobex]

Elsewhere you can find my story.

 

The more I read and write, the more confused I get. I'm reading a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" - interesting book so far and I see a LOT of me on each page. Not a perfect fit but darn good.

 

I really don't know what to do. I'm not happy in my current relationship with my wife of 20 years. Nor is she. There are fundamental missing pieces (warmth, intimacy, trust, joy) in our relationship. And they have been missing for a long time and may never have been there.

 

I'm trying to figure out if I need to change ME or leave HER. I don't want to leave but I don't know how to change. But neither she nor I can continue forever as we are.

 

Maybe someone out here can help.

 

I need specific actionable things, strategies, tactics to break my current pattern of behavior. I'm coming to believe that my personality is to some degree directly responsible for my current less than satisfactory relationship. I really want to change for me and for her and for us. But I've lived my whole life and whole marriage in a certain paradigm and it ain't easy to do differently now.

 

Again: maybe someone out here can help.

 

Much of my life has been an attempt to sail calm waters, to be good, to be productive. I avoid confrontation. I'm classic passive/aggressive. I'm not 100% dysfunctional, not even close. But I want to change.

 

Specifically: last night the Mrs and I had an fight/emotional interaction/something. The details of how we got to it are long and baggage-laden. And probably not important. I'm trying to figure out what to do now.

 

She's angry/hurt/depressed/stubborn/blaming me etc etc. She blames me for failing her, for not supporting her. And I just don't agree with her view. Within HER paradigm of life, I do UNDERSTAND her perspective, but I just don't agree.

 

Nonetheless here we are. Not talking. Or at least she isn't. For the last 20 years, I've consistently rolled over whenever these events occurred and tried to make the situation 'nice'. I want to stop rolling over - but frighteningly I don't know how to stop.

 

What do I do? Do i just let her stew until she comes to me? Last time I tried this, we barely spoke for 6 months. Six months.

[Pegasus]

Elsewhere you can find my story.

 

The more I read and write, the more confused I get. I'm reading a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" - interesting book so far and I see a LOT of me on each page. Not a perfect fit but darn good.

 

First I would finish reading that book if I were you. I've red it and a few more and it helped me.

 

What do I do? Do i just let her stew until she comes to me? Last time I tried this, we barely spoke for 6 months. Six months.

 

So did you learn anything from that experience? I think I had the same way of "solving problems" - using the 'silent treatment'. It doesn't help at all, to any of the sides. It took me some time and a heart break to learn it. Please do not do the same thing on your own skin. It hurts like hell.

 

I will write more later; pretty busy right now.

[Soon_tobex]

Pegasus... when you have time, right more. I have only ONCE used the silent treatment. Only once. Normally I fold like a tent and seek her approval and try to make things better. Which is emasculating and which i think she hates.

 

What did I learn after 6 months of silence? Well I learned a lot about the divorce process and I have gotten over my desperate fear of divorce. Which is healthy because I shouldn't be so afraid of divorce - it's not the end of the world. It's not always the answer, but sometimes it maybe the only solution.

 

But what I reallllly learned was this: after 6 months, she finally, FINALLY came to me. I can honestly say I don't ever recall her breaking first. She didn't come with a kiss, hug, and an "I love you". But she did come to me to end the madness. And after a nasty, touching, ugly, honest interaction, we "got somewhere". We didn't fix 20 years of missed expectations, but we had sex 3 times in a week. Which we haven't done in ... in maybe forever? Seriously.

 

Not that sex is THE barometer of a healthy relationship, but it is A barometer. I think she liked/hated/respected/disapproved of my 6 months of "screw you, I'm not giving in" attitude.

 

Since then? We slid right back to normal.

 

So I learned that she can respect me. I learned she does like sex. But boy 6 months???? It was draining. We came dangerously close to divorce. And we slid back to normal and now are circling the same issues over and over.

[Soon_tobex]

Hi Ellie. She'd never do therapy. Won't happen. Period.

 

I am also a 100% effort person - which MAY in some bizarre way be part of the problem. A "less nice guy" would say: "I'm done." And would care less about the implications and she might actually like that.

 

I'm better understanding who I am and how I act and what effect my actions have on my marriage.

 

But I don't know how to do differently. Right now, I'm circling the house (literally) because I don't know what to do. We aren't talking, there's tension in the air and I feel lost. I know it sounds stupid and pathetic. My kids are here playing video games are reading and they are 'fine' although they probably feel the tension too. I went upstairs to get dressed and wifey was in our bedroom folding clothes. Door closed. I knocked quietly (thought maybe she was dressing). No answer. I pushed the door open slowly and said "Hello?" She was there. Didn't look at me. I came in and she then left and went downstairs.

 

Fine. FU2. Do I really care about that particular event? I guess I do cause I'm writing about it now. It's the pattern that I really care about. I'm circling the house trying to find something to do (I don't just 'sit' well) and her emotional state is defining mine way more than it should. I know that. But I don't know what to do!

 

Go for a walk? Just seems pathetic.

Try to talk with her? Won't work and will give her the power.

Get my son to come outside and throw the football? Maybe.

 

Then I ask myself, what if you weren't married? What would you be doing right now and then do it. And I really don't know what I'd be doing.

 

LOL... the more I write, the more I see how I contribute to our relationship. I mean, c'mon: should a man write this stuff?

[Timebandit]

LOL... the more I write, the more I see how I contribute to our relationship. I mean, c'mon: should a man write this stuff?

 

I am certainly not an expert in this field. So this is just some random thoughts.

 

But I see two very hurt people, acting from a point of defensiveness. You are trying to protect yourself from more hurt - ironically just ending up creating more hurt and resentment.

 

Your wifes retracts into herself, and you are being too unassertive and avoids conflict. Giving someone the silent treatment is yet another way to escape conflict (and arguably one of the worst ways to do it).

 

You mention that you cannot talk to her - that it would be meaningless and it would only give her the power. And perhaps you are indeed running a powerstruggle with each other. But if you cannot get to the point where you can talk together, the relationship is doomed.

 

It takes two to tango, and I am sure that you both created the problem. And there is only the two of you together who can solve the problem. But one of you is going to break the circle, and it probably aint gonna be your wife. Time is not for incremental changes, but rather for radical changes.

 

So I just have some random advice for you, that might or might not make any sense:

 

Skip your defensive resentment and your passive/aggressiveness. Unconditionally accept your part of the relationship, but be assertive about your need to live in a healthy realtionship. If she does not want to go to therapy, just do it yourself. Stop being a victim, and start creating positive changes for yourself.

 

Then let her make her choice, as to whether she will work on saving your marriage or not.

 

Good luck.

[DN]

Without trying to insult you I am reminded of the man who described a colleague as being like a cushion - he always bore the imprint of the last person who sat on him.

 

You yourself describe your behaviour as passive-aggressive and I see exactly the same behaviours in your wife. So it's time for one of you to stop doing that so perhaps the other will follow the lead. That would be you.

 

But the trick is to be neither passive nor aggressive but assertive. With yourself as well as in the relationship. So make some decisions and take appropriate actions. Like this for instance:

 

Decide what you want - really want - not what is comfortable or easy. For the time being consider only yourself.

 

If you decide you want a divorce because the current situation is intolerable and unlikely to change, then decide the best way to accomplish that with the least amount of hurt and heartache - especially for your children. But make sure it is what you want and not used as a ploy to get your wife to engage in the marriage.

 

It you really want the marriage to work (and part of that is deciding if you still love your wife as a husband should) and think it might be possible to do that then decide how. I would suggest saying to your wife that the marriage is not working for you and unless both of you recommit to making it work and solving the problems without anger and blame but in an honest attempt you will have to separate. It may be possible without counseling but you will both have to work out a way of doing it alone and that can be tricky. There are ways of doing it and I may be able to help you there.

 

That leaves making a conscious decision to allow things to go on as they are and I suggest that is not wise and is probably not sustainable.

[Soon_tobex]

Just to clarify: I did NOT give HER the silent treatment. She wasn't talking to me. True: I didn't go out of my way to engage her in conversation, but I was willing to talk to her. She knew I'd talk to her. She knew. But for once I just didn't suck up to her to make her talk. Six months later she finally cornered me and said "I don't know what your problem is... stalking around here for 6 months without talking." To which I replied: "ME? I don't think so..." After which we had a shouting match and then a conversation.

 

So, I didn't give the silent treatment. I think silent treatments are stupid and inane and ridiculous methods for adults to employ.

 

I had made an appointment to see a therapist. Then canceled it cause I was out of town on business. She didn't/doesn't know. Part of me feels like a pathetic fool for going. Oh there he goes to therapy and he's alone cause his wife won't go. Great. I really don't want my kids to know I'm going - prideful? I dunno.

 

And trust me, she won't go. I've asked, begged, cajoled. She will never believe that a complete stranger can be helpful and besides, she has said over and over that it's me, not her, with a problem.

 

The conundrum: I love her but she'll never be what I want in a wife. Maybe she 'loves' me in her way too, but I'm not the husband she wants. I can probably be more like she wants. Maybe. I'm just starting to understand how frustrating certain aspects of my personality can be to her. I'm aware of it and I acknowledge it. And I'm figuring out (or trying) to change some of me. I'm doing it for me. And for her cause I love her. And I may need it in the future for the next Mrs STBX!

 

The real scary thing: I really don't think she's ever going to be some of what I want in a wife. She has a slew of great traits and things that I admire and adore about her.

 

But...

 

She won't go out with me on a date - we haven't been alone in 18 years or so. She doesn't hold me or caress me or kiss me or bunch of other things that makes being a man with a woman he loves such a great thing. Sex is boring and very rare. She has a very low self esteem and very low sex drive. I just want a WOMAN. Someone who will put her hand on my back as i hold the door for her and brush against me. I'll never get that from her because she is not that way. I think she was a loooooonng time ago. But it's been so long, I've forgotten. And I really don't think that anything I do or any changes I make will spark her to be different. Maybe I'm the problem and maybe she can be warm with someone else. Or maybe she just isn't a warm person.

 

Assume that for a second. Assume she just isn't that way. There is no law, no rule, no reason that she HAS to be that way. Sure, many (most?) women enjoy being a woman and would enjoy the freedom possible to "the" woman in my life. But she has every RIGHT to be the way she is and be happy and comfortable in who she is.

 

So assume she is who she is and will never be what I'd really like (mind you I don't NEED it. I NEED food, clothing and shelter. Everything else is a want). So, I work hard on changing me and nothing changes. She still won't hold my hand or initiate sex, etc. And more years pass... Then I agree with Ellie... am I just wasting my time and hers pursuing something that will never be?

 

She KNOWS I want something different. She's "called me on it" more than once. I once purchased her a very nice, sharp, sexy, pant suit. Something that would look awesome on her. Was it practical? No! Was it for me to see her in... yea. Guilty. That was a huge fight because as she said "you bought that for the wife you really want, not the one you have."

 

Sigh. She's right. But, ya know, if SHE ever bought me something that I wouldn't normally wear and suggested that she thought I'd look great in it, I'd never take it off. And I'm tired of her in the same freak_ing blue jeans all the time. And she just doesn't seem to care about keeping me intrigued or excited or whatever. Partly cause she thinks I'd never do anything (my PA works against me big time. I control my anger and dissatisfaction with HER, but vent it in other ways... like the EA I stumbled into earlier this year). If I gave her reason to believe I'd leave, would she be different?

 

This is long, so let me end with a question: do I just say to her: "I love you with all my heart but we can't keep doing this. I want our marriage to last forever because I love you and made a vow to you. But I want things that I'm not getting in our marriage - and you too want things that you aren't getting. I want to work on this and if you do too, then we must seek outside help. We've been circling the same problems for a long time and we aren't fixing them alone. Maybe with outside help, we can."

 

If I ask that, it's an ultimatum. It puts her and me in a corner. I'm 99.99% convinced that she will completely refuse to seek help. And then my only option is to leave.

[siennalou]

STBX -

 

Your wife seems very mean to me and abusive. Unfortunately I know a lot about abuse as I divorced my abusive husband last year. The abuse pattern she is using on you is called "Witholding". It's cruel.

 

Have you asked yourself the very hard question, "Why do I not feel I'm worthy of a terrific relationship?" "Why am I having such a hard time taking care of me?" I can finally ask myself these questions (and try to daily to stay on track) because I don't want to repeat my bad marriage.

 

It's really tough getting divorced. But I'm SO glad I did it.

 

Here's a cool decision making tool (for tough decisions!) that I got in "O" magazine - it's called 10-10-10. I used it to finally confront my husband (this lead to his running out the door and me filing for divorce).

 

Ask yourself - if I divorce my wife - what will happen in 10 minutes... in 10 months.... in 10 years....

 

My own answer was - it will suck in 10 minutes, it will probably even suck in 10 months but if I have to spend 10 more years like this I might as well jump off a bridge.

 

Good luck!!

[Soon_tobex]

DN: you say "It may be possible without counseling but you will both have to work out a way of doing it alone and that can be tricky. There are ways of doing it and I may be able to help you there."

 

Please give me some examples of ways of doing it?

 

She's a tough nut to crack. Do I love her? I dunno anymore. Assume I do. How can we, without counseling, break the cycle we are in?