This involves my fiancee again, and is EVEN MORE TROUBLING. 14 year old girls.....

[engagedkitty]

Finewhine, yes, I really AM only 20, I'll be 21 November 1st. And yes, this whole sordid story is true. It's funny that you said I was articulate because back in junior high school, we got awards suited to our personalities at the end of the year- I received 'most articulate'. (Yes, also true.) Not sure if this is very relevant, but I was classified as 'academically gifted' and have always been particularly good with things involving words. Which may explain my verbosity and so on. I realize when I'm typing the things the things that happen I tend to put them into story form. I just find this easier and I feel people will understand the entire jist of the problem if I do it in that way. Plus I've always way, way overanalyzed things and that comes out in my writing too. As you can see it comes in quite handly because nothing escapes me- which is why I easily pieced together the truth, I think. But oh yes, this story is very, very true. I will take it as a compliment though. Thank you.

 

I also must say smart people can find themselves in stupid situations just like anybody else. We don't choose the actions or behaviors of the people we are around. We also can't really control it. We can, to a degree, but something THAT sordid and extreme.. . .. . .. . ... I could be Einsteina, and that situation still would have occurred, regardless. If you mean that I'm behaving stupidly for choosing someone like that, or am being stupid for still being here with this guy, then- point taken. I fully am aware of this.

 

I don't know though, you are right, I AM freaking young, I just didn't think I'd be engaged at 20. I always imagined my late 20's or so, or perhaps 30's. And there is so many things I can be doing with my life. Society kinds of forces it into our heads that our ultimate goals are to marry and have children but I don't think that's always the best idea. I don't know what I was thinking accepting the ring, I don't. I might be smart and articulate as you said but that doesn't mean I don't make wrong decisions. Heh I had to laugh 'cause you called him retarded. I agree. What he did was so * * * *ing retarded I can't even * * * *ing comprehend it.

 

And yes I am aware there will always be other people (other mens) who will love you- exactly what I said to my friend. It's no hoax, this story is true. How did you end up leaving that one guy- how did you go about doing it, so on.

[engagedkitty]

BrokenWingedFaery- again, he would never do anything to his daughter. Never. My intuition is telling me that. I know that's not fact- it's opinion- but all I can say is that's what I truly believe. I am sorry you were molested, and maybe this girl WAS molested. And you are right, the law would see it differently and I also find it to be child molestation. You were right, I was wrong. And again, yes it was wrong of him to do that- fatally wrong, perhaps. But he did think she was old enough (I know that is hardly an excuse, though..) and the moment he found out her true age he wanted nothing to do with her.

 

But like I said, my question is what if she had been old enough... what then? You know what I mean? Now it sounds like I'm defending him and I'm not, or not trying to anyway. It's just I know he wouldn't ever hurt his own daughter in that way. But yes yes yesssssssss, what he did was so incomphrehensively wrong that I will never forget it.

[engagedkitty]

Fides75, oh hell yes I AM going to be keeping one eye open. ALWAYS. And being cheated on by other guys, I am already a naturally suspicious/aware person. So even before this incident I've always kept one eye open and will continue to do so. I guess it would be crazy to have to watch over him, I shouldn't have to do that. And he probably can't regain my trust. Like, ever. I understand your point about us being 30 and that coming back to haunt me and so on, but I will really never know if that would be true or not unless I am compassionate and give him a second chance. But maybe I should not be doing that- seems no one here thinks it's a good idea.

[engagedkitty]

Well HoneyPumpkin, all I can say is that if you find my posts way too long (which yes, I agree they are) and a really painful experience to have to read through them, then just don't. I am not trying to be a * * * * * but you don't have to read my posts if you really find it that difficult. There will be others that will. But you also have a point when you say maybe I'm writing in such depth to try to convince myself... that's spot on. I just find the more I type about it and talk about it and discuss discuss discuss, the more I can make sense of it all...

 

I don't know that he WOULD have slept with her, if she had said yes- he said he wouldn't have, the guilt would have weighed on him. But, I don't really know.

 

Hmm and again I'm slightly offended, I don't THINK I've got innate personal skills, I know that I do. Always have been like that.

 

Yes we probably both need professional help. And I probably need it not only to work through these issues but also to work through why I'm doing what everyone thinks is a bad idea and staying.

[finewhine]

OK, I believe you, and I'm going to respond again. You are making a bad decision by staying with him. I think you are making this decision not because you're flawed, but because you're young. I'm not going to rake you over the coals for staying with a * * * * * * * (as I've said, I've been there a few times), but please be aware that it's up to you to leave. He sounds like he's beyond hope.

 

I think your idea of getting therapy is a super idea. I love therapy! I was in a dead-end relationship myself recently, for over three years, and being in therapy gave me the extra kick in the rear I needed to leave it.

 

I have total faith that you'll make the right decision. You will be fine. You're obviously very smart. Have you considered grad school? Maybe that will do it for you. I think going to grad school was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It, like, focuses you and challenges you and gives you confidence to take on the world. Now leave that man and take on the world!

 

One final thing - of COURSE smart people get in dumb situations! However, it's your responsibility, as a smart person, hell, as a person, to use what you've got to live the best life possible. You don't owe it to your fiance to help him wade through his issues just cause you're stronger. Please recognize that! You know what's wrong with your relationship. You're more than halfway there. You've done nothing wrong, and when you leave, your hands will be clean. He's the one who screwed it up, dude.

[BrokenWingedFaery]

You can "know" that all you want, but I hope if she ever comes to saying he did something, you believe her. You're choosing to believe TWO child molesters/child rapists instead of your own common sense (i.e. "I thought she was 18" and related excuses). If you want to stay with him, go ahead. Marry him, and pray that you're right. I hope you're right-for your sake and the sake every kid he meets.

 

Even if he really thought she was legal, he harassed her and possibly cheated on you with her. I wouldn't stay with someone who cheated to be bad*** either. Frankly, this dude is bad news, whether he's a perv or not.

[melrich]

I have to agree with others here, you seem like a very articuilate, smart person. I just fail to understand how you could be hanging out with these people who sound straight out of Deliverance.

 

Nor how you could continue to expose a 14 year old girl to that situation (keep on bringing her back into the house to be interrogated).

What should have happened here is the police should have been called and it should have been left to them to work out.

 

You should just get right away from these ugly people.

[Siriana]

You're dealing with a bunch of twisted, sick and immature jerks (I include here: Your bf, his friend and his fiancee). You need to pick up your staff and leave. I mean calling the police and beating up is enough for me to know that you are with jerks and that you are risking to become equaly messed up.

 

And it is really not important how smart or eloquent you are. You are right, beeing emotionaly mature and smart for life is not something that comes with inteligence by default. I mean someone who has only elementary school can make better personal decisions than a Phd!

 

SInce you are smart, think about the smartest move you could make: run away

[caro33]

I'm completely with the other posters here, and won't repeat their comments. The arguments have been made well.

 

The only thing I will reinforce is this. Let's, just for the sake of argument, put aside the age of the girl, the neighbours, the offensive behaviour and the lying (which you seem to want to do). Let's also put aside the fact that he found another 'woman' attractive (which I must say is the least of your/his problems). All this drama is the unsavoury symptom of the real problem - his weak character. This was pointed out in the beginning.

 

Perhaps he's not a cheater, a child molester, or a pathalogical liar, perhaps he really is a good guy who loves you. Great. What I am more worried about is that you are TWENTY YEARS OLD and actively loking for excuses to spend THE REST OF YOUR LIFE with this lame duck of a man. So what if he's nice - he'll say anything, no matter how abhorrent or how much it clashes with his claimed values, to impress some tool of a 'friend'. He will risk the good things in his life (or the potential good thing as you may have been at the time) for this.

 

We need some people to post here about their experiences with long term relationships with lame duck types, with weak characters. I spent ten years with one. Yeah he was nice and generally meant well, but he was a disappointment and ultimately took off when he found the next shiny thing that made him feel validated. These people don't know or trust themselves, they have no real integrity. They let themselves down. This means that you can NEVER trust them to not let YOU down.

 

If, on top of all that, you have any doubts whatsoever about him re child molestation, cheating and lying at the level you've been fretting over, then there IS NO DOUBT. Any doubt at all on these issues reflects a flaming dealbreaker.

 

I know we make this sound easy, like we don't get your feelings here, but we all probably get this better than you think, and I hestitate to say, better than you get it, because you're amid this. We are talking about you and your life and the great big world full of promise that's out there for you, and you are trying to find reasons to saddle yourself with this one loser at only 20.

 

Do you want to be 30, 40, 50, looking back on this and regretting the years wasted? Can you really see this guy manning up and being who he needs to be to be a good husband and father?

[finewhine]

Caro33 speaks the truth! Very, very well-said!

[candy604]

sorry..but you are only 20 years old..that's soo soo young. You really should think of marriage later on in life. Your bf isn't mature enough to eve consider getting married. Marriage is a big big step in life. I just don't think you two are ready for that.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

Finewhine,

Yes it's true I'm young, and don't claim to actually know what I'm doing. Some days I'm sure I'm doing the right thing by staying (assuming the theory that people with less-than-desirable character traits can change is true), but then other times I start thinking about what happened again, and I'm sure I'm making a serious mistake. I'm having severe trouble making up my mind.

 

If he treated me like a (expletive), then I'd definitely be leaning towards "Yes, I am making a horrible, horrible mistake." But he doesn't. That's a fact no one is taking into consideration. I can understand that, though. If I were an outsider looking in, reading about this problem, I'd post, "leave! Leave now!" But no one can ever really know, just based upon strong opinions. But let me describe why some days, even though I'm still pissed as hell about what happened, I'm convinced I'm doing the right thing by staying. Just so everyone can get a perspective from my point of view, being in the actual situation myself, and actually knowing the guy I describe.

 

Even if we have a disagreement, he's never stooped to calling me names. He's never raised a hand to me, or at me. And I've been there before with other men, not boyfriends in particular but my father. So I know the signs of that sort of loser. He is not one of those.

 

He is ALWAYS thinking of ways to do things for me, always thinking of new ways we can have fun and spend time together, always trying his damndest to make sure I'm happy. Honestly. I'm not saying that to convince everyone he is a wonderful upstanding guy. I'm just stating the facts.

 

We have fun, we laugh together all the time because we seem to share a similar sense of humor that not everyone can appreciate or 'get'.

 

He would get me anything I wanted if I asked. He pretty much caters to me.

 

He talks about me to other people all the time- and it's always positive things. I have heard from people about the things he will say. It's a nice change from all the two-faced people who reside in this county.

 

He wants to be around me all the time. He doesn't go out with his friends to strip clubs, bars, or even simple outing with friends. If he is invited anywhere he makes sure I go too. He doesn't want to GO if I don't. When he's off work, he comes home to ME.

 

A really important thing: (Really, really important to me because I've got severe issues with parents that treat their kids like crap, being that mine certainly did): He treats his daughter like GOLD, no, PLATINUM. She is a good girl and she will grow up happily because of him and his side of the family. Her mother has barely anything to do with her, is a drug addict and was abusive, and has a lot of psychotic sorts of problems. But my man treats the little girl like a princess and you can see the mutual love and adoration between them. Yes, he may have a weak character as far as being led very easily, but a part of his character does show some heart, because of the way he treats me and his daughter. And it is genuine, you should see how proudly he shows off pictures of his little girl to people.

 

He's dropped the pretense of being this 'bad@ss' he's tried to be in the past. He doesn't care who is around, he sits there and tells people he loves me and other assorted things - like he doesn't care anymore what people think. Like he'd rather be in a real relationship with mutual caring and respect than playing the field and being a player.

 

Most importantly, he is making an effort to show he has changed, and wants to change. He has repeatedly said and shown his guilt for what happened. He has asserted that he is no longer worried about what people think and especially people like that guy Tim, who he realizes are no good anyway. He doesn't even want to be around people like that anymore. He wants nothing to do with him. He has cried and talked to other people about this situation, admitted to others what happened, and asked them how he could make things better. I do think he feels remorse and not just because he was caught.

 

BUT, however I do realize a person CAN feel remorse, guilt, and even WANT to do right, but still revert to their old ways. But I think all of his old ways were brought on by low self esteem as a result of childhood trauma and so on, and a lot of the bad@ss act was to make himself feel better. But I think he realizes now that it's not worth it, and people will like and appreciate the REAL him better than that other version.

 

It is a matter of how long this will moment will last. Months? Years, even? Forever? I'm not exactly naive, I don't blindly believe that just because he's sorry and feels guilty and is in love with me that he can't do such a thing again. I'm well aware it can happen. But does it make me a stupid person to chance it? Youth or no youth? I don't know. Like I have said, people CAN do horrible things, things they know are wrong, things they feel guilty for doing, and things they will never do again. He KNOWS it was wrong, he knew it was wrong doing it. The girl even said herself he stopped... He also now knows the consequences or possible consequences of doing such things. He also knows I will still continue to bring it up and he knows I don't forget, and find it hard to even forgive. He ALSO knows I'm a two-chance type of girl. My ex did me wrong once- shame on him. Shame on you the second time you let it go. The second time I LEFT, no shame on my part. And I never went back. So he knows that is a real and true reality. I don't play.

 

But yes I did kind of go off there- back to answering the original post- I would like to take on grad school. I would like to do something cool. I want to do a lot of things, haven't really narrowed it down yet. I know I don't really owe it to him to wade through his issues and help him resolve them. However I feel no one really ever let it be known to him that he could seriously benefit from some therapy. According to him I'm the first person he's opened up to about a lot of issues, so if that's true, then he is finally getting a chance to be able to resolve them. Everyone deserves second chances to start fresh and be a better person, no matter how late in life.

 

But honestly, do you really think I'm being stupid??? Do you, at all, in any way, think that sometimes people CAN make horribly stupid mistakes that they regret terribly and can change??? Or do you feel I'm being manipulated?

 

Describe dead-end relationship if you would. You don't have to but I'm curious to see certain parallels between your relationship and mine. It kind of helps me work out what I'm doing exactly by hearing other people's experiences.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

You can "know" that all you want, but I hope if she ever comes to saying he did something, you believe her. You're choosing to believe TWO child molesters/child rapists instead of your own common sense (i.e. "I thought she was 18" and related excuses). If you want to stay with him, go ahead. Marry him, and pray that you're right. I hope you're right-for your sake and the sake every kid he meets.

 

Even if he really thought she was legal, he harassed her and possibly cheated on you with her. I wouldn't stay with someone who cheated to be bad*** either. Frankly, this dude is bad news, whether he's a perv or not.

 

When he found out she was 14, he was disgusted. Which no, does not make it right at all. But, at least that says he's not a child molestor.

 

Yes, he did harass her, age or not. So true. I would agree with your latter comments too if I was an outsider on this situation, and you still may be right.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

I have to agree with others here, you seem like a very articuilate, smart person. I just fail to understand how you could be hanging out with these people who sound straight out of Deliverance.

 

Nor how you could continue to expose a 14 year old girl to that situation (keep on bringing her back into the house to be interrogated).

What should have happened here is the police should have been called and it should have been left to them to work out.

 

You should just get right away from these ugly people.

 

I don't know why I'm hanging out with such people. Actually, I never hung out with those neighbors or anything, I usually, before this situation, didn't even talk or associate with them at all.

 

But I fail to see why you say I continued to expose her to the situation when she WANTED to talk to me as well. I wasn't the one harassing her and kept telling her to come back to the house for more talks.

 

You're right, the police should have been called. I don't know what else to say- it seems people blame me for what happened to the girl. The situation could have been dealt with better for sure. No doubt.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

You're dealing with a bunch of twisted, sick and immature jerks (I include here: Your bf, his friend and his fiancee). You need to pick up your staff and leave. I mean calling the police and beating up is enough for me to know that you are with jerks and that you are risking to become equaly messed up.

 

And it is really not important how smart or eloquent you are. You are right, beeing emotionaly mature and smart for life is not something that comes with inteligence by default. I mean someone who has only elementary school can make better personal decisions than a Phd!

 

SInce you are smart, think about the smartest move you could make: run away

 

 

Acknowledged.

 

DO you think it is possible for people to change and make mistakes and get second chances? Curious.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

Um, how old are you and your b/f?

 

I'm 20 going on 21, he's 25 going on 26.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

That's not true that I'm willing to put aside of all those things, how do you figure? Nothing rude, but I'm definitely not putting those things aside. They're in my mind all the time, I analyze such things and stress myself about it.

 

Yes, I concede to your other points. The matter of the weak character is indeed a large one. I'm not denying that.

 

Do you think though, that although he said horrible things to impress a friend, that a person can learn from such mistake, and change? And begin to work on building a stronger character? Can it not be restored? (Opinions please.)

 

Yes he risked a 'potential' good thing as you put it. Would he risk it now...? All these months later? Again, opinions.

 

I would like it if people would post their experiences with lame duck types. What exactly does lame duck mean, or it the same exact thing as weak character? Would you mind posting your own experience more in depth? Would be curious to hear it.

 

I don't doubt that he is not a child molestor. Since he said, once he found out she was 14 he was disgusted and made every effort to keep her away. But, I also do doubt that he would have done things with her had she been of a legal age, or if she had said yes, would he have done so anyway assuming that she was legal, and I also doubt he will not continue lying. Because of what happened, I am paranoid.

 

No I don't want to look back and regret years wasted. No one does, but no one ever really knows whether that will be a reality or not. Even if there are no red flags before you marry someone, you never know whether you're making a mistake with them or not..

 

I can't honestly say I know for a fact he will man up and make a good husband, but I can say I honestly know he could be a good father no matter what.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

sorry..but you are only 20 years old..that's soo soo young. You really should think of marriage later on in life. Your bf isn't mature enough to eve consider getting married. Marriage is a big big step in life. I just don't think you two are ready for that.

 

Where I live, girls are usually married and have a baby/babies by now. Heh. The neighbor girl is 18 with two kids... unmarried though.

 

But yeah, point taken. I really can't say he is mature enough for marriage. I always said I would marry later in life... like in my late 20's early 30's..

[Scout]

Hi, engagedkitty...first, I want to commend you for processing some pretty blunt opinions here without freaking out and leaving the forum. I think that says a lot about you, and it shows you are seriously weighing this matter a great deal.

 

To answer your question below:

 

Do you think though, that although he said horrible things to impress a friend, that a person can learn from such mistake, and change? And begin to work on building a stronger character? Can it not be restored? (Opinions please.)

 

Theoretically, practically anything is *possible.* But let me just share with you what I've learned all too well from my own past mistakes, many of which I made over and over again before lessons were learned.

 

For major character overhauls, it usually requires a pretty shocking event to occur to wake one up and do so. This often involves a pretty major loss. Otherwise, what is the incentive? For example, I had an abusive boyfriend in the past (waaaaaaaay in the past...when I was around your age). He promised me many times that he would change, but of course, he never did. Eventually, I left him for good, and only then did he get serious about doing the necessary work on himself he needed to do. Because he realized that his behavior had cost him everything, and he didn't want to go down that road again in a future relationship.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how much he actually fixed. The damage was irreversible to our relationship, and I couldn't love him ever again as I had lost all of my respect for him. Last I heard from him, he seemed to be living a more stable life, but that's about as much as I know.

 

Anyway, the point is that if I had stayed with him, there would have been no incentive for him to change, and as a result, my life would have dragged down in the mud along with his. Another point is that once you lose respect for your partner, the relationship itself is pretty much lost. While I think you do still love your boyfriend, I don't think you respect him anymore. Out of a sense of loyalty, perhaps, you're wanting to give him another chance. I can't tell you if that is right or wrong, or how it will turn out. I can *predict* how it will probably turn out, but this may be something you have to ultimately discover on your own.

 

In the meantime, I wish you all the best in the world as you navigate the difficult times ahead, and you definitely have my support.

[melrich]

You're right, the police should have been called. I don't know what else to say- it seems people blame me for what happened to the girl. The situation could have been dealt with better for sure. No doubt.

 

Kitty, I don't blame you for what initially happened to this girl but you have to accept some responsibility for her continued involvement in this drama.

 

This is a 14 year old girl we are talking about. Of course she wanted to keep the drama going, that's what 14 year old do. They think all this activity going on around them is exciting.

 

You as an adult should have made the decision for her...no more contact with your b/f, no more visiting your house, no more interrogation about what had gone on. And as an adult you should have reported these events to the police.

 

No matter how mature a 14 year old may seem you cannot get away from the fact that they have a 14 year olds brain and mental development. The facade crumbles when under pressure and she should have been protected from all this. Expecially if there were suspicions about inappropriate sexual contact with a minor.

[caro33]

I can't work out how to multi-quote so sorry for the unwieldy response.

 

- I didn't mean to insult you with the comment about you putting aside the big issues, I apologise. I was just trying to get at the fact that you want to give him a chance even though other posters here have been explicit re walking away. But it's always easy to be objective and much more challenging to live these situations, so no judgement here from me about your approach.

 

- I think people can learn from their mistakes, but a weak character is a weak character. Our character is the fundamental aspect of who we are, and I agree with the above poster that this type of thing generally doesn't change except in the most extreme circumstances, such as a major loss, illness etc. And people's behaviour can change incrementally as they age of course. But a major shift in a short time based on guilt and trying to keep a girlfriend happy is less likely.

 

The issue I am trying to explain here is that it's not about if he now realises what he did was wrong, or how sorry he is. The fact that it happened at all, and let's even put aside her age (as he didn't know it), means he is easily led, and has poor judgement. These are facts. I ask you, do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that in a completely different situation - one he can't predict and one you can't warn him about ahead of time - could you trust him to 'do the right thing' whatever that is? Does he have the moral compass within himself to do the right thing AT THE TIME IT'S REQUIRED? If you believe he does (and don't just want to believe) then you have decided to stay and forgive all this stuff. That's fine, your decision, but you then need to decide to move on from your concerns also and cease the worry because that's not fair on him or you.

 

- I agree here's no guarantee about anyone, but there are fundamental red flags about a person's basic personality, and there are situational red flags about stuff that went wrong where there might have been misunderstanding. As you can see from the above, I would like you to put aside the situational 'facts of the case' and see this as a personality issue. That IS a big deal, and worthy of serious analysis quite apart from what's happened in this particular situation.

 

At the risk of completely overdoing this post, I'll tell you a little more about my ex, in case it helps.

 

I got together with my ex when I was 19, and loved him to bits. He loved me also, but was flakey and unsure of himself. So he was easily led by who he was hanging out with, and made lots of mistakes. He was always really sorry about what he did and was able to move on, but the fact is that he never really 'got it', because he was only able to exercise better judgement in something ONCE HE'D ALREADY STUFFED IT UP. He didn't have the backbone or moral compass to apply a general rule, or act with his own integrity. I always got the impression that deep down he thought things happened TO him (so his mistakes were 'bad luck', or he 'didn't know' something most people would have assumed etc) and that he had no direction and power of his own. This meant that he never really took responsibility, although when he knew how I felt about things he was very good at parroting back to me what he thought I wanted to hear.

 

I also remember that we never had any really challenging conversations. I am kind of feisty and intense and he was a bit sooky and unimaginative. He agreed with me, or when he felt rebellious, he argued with me for the hell of it. There were no truly informed debates, and I rarely came away from a conversation having seen a new perspective. The scary thing is that when I was 19-20 and starting the relationship with him, I really noticed this. Over subsequent years I kind of stopped noticing. He was comfortable and sweet, so I felt that was 'enough'. I also thought those things were enough for me to just have to deal with his dumb mistakes about things (like your guy's recent problem). I didn't notice how much the compromises built up until it was over and I was MORTIFIED.

 

The statements can always be made 'but my case is different', 'but my guy isn't so bad', and hey, that's fair enough. None of us can truly affect your course of action or give you a real comparison you can trust; we all need to tread our own path in life. But I implore you to ask yourself what kind of person he is, not just if he's nice to you. 'Catering' to you, as you noted he does, is not actually that good either. You're a smart girl and you know it. At the risk of being presumptuous, I will suggest that you need someone who will not always cater to you, who will be good to you but also challenge you, and someone who you know you can leave in any situation and he won't let himself or you down. Can you say that about your current guy?

[pregnantkitty_1985]

Hi, engagedkitty...first, I want to commend you for processing some pretty blunt opinions here without freaking out and leaving the forum. I think that says a lot about you, and it shows you are seriously weighing this matter a great deal.

 

Thank you, I try. I try to see things from other people's perspectives. For example, it does slightly offend me that BrokenWingedFaery thinks my man is a paedophile and is going to molest his own daughter. I know that is not true. BUT, I can completely see things from her point of view. If I were an outsider looking in on this situation, I'd probably be worried about such things myself and possibly would even warn the poster. This also applies to how I'm trying (though it's hard) to see thing from my man's point of view, as far as what happened. Still, at the same time shady details and constant lying make it hard to really *KNOW* what actually happened.

 

 

 

Theoretically, practically anything is *possible.* But let me just share with you what I've learned all too well from my own past mistakes, many of which I made over and over again before lessons were learned.

 

For major character overhauls, it usually requires a pretty shocking event to occur to wake one up and do so. This often involves a pretty major loss. Otherwise, what is the incentive? For example, I had an abusive boyfriend in the past (waaaaaaaay in the past...when I was around your age). He promised me many times that he would change, but of course, he never did. Eventually, I left him for good, and only then did he get serious about doing the necessary work on himself he needed to do. Because he realized that his behavior had cost him everything, and he didn't want to go down that road again in a future relationship.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure how much he actually fixed. The damage was irreversible to our relationship, and I couldn't love him ever again as I had lost all of my respect for him. Last I heard from him, he seemed to be living a more stable life, but that's about as much as I know.

 

Could a shocking event, though, be getting caught and seeing one's partner's reaction to what you did? And the possibility of loss? The possibility of me retaliating in similar ways? The possibility of me finding someone 'better' (as he fears)?

 

I do see your point however. And I know I know there is a difference between promising one will stop with their bad behavior and actually doing so. As was the case with your ex boyfriend. That's the thing though. I won't know whether my man is being honest when he says he will never behave like that again if I leave. You found out with yours that he was not being honest. You said he promised 'many times'- that means you did chance it. And though you found out he would never change, you still took a chance. You still treated him like a human being with compassion and gave him another chance, is my point. Though ultimately you discovered he never would change during the course of the relationship, at least you learned from that very unfortunate situation. And it's likely made you a stronger person today.

 

Anyway, the point is that if I had stayed with him, there would have been no incentive for him to change, and as a result, my life would have dragged down in the mud along with his. Another point is that once you lose respect for your partner, the relationship itself is pretty much lost. While I think you do still love your boyfriend, I don't think you respect him anymore. Out of a sense of loyalty, perhaps, you're wanting to give him another chance. I can't tell you if that is right or wrong, or how it will turn out. I can *predict* how it will probably turn out, but this may be something you have to ultimately discover on your own.

 

In the meantime, I wish you all the best in the world as you navigate the difficult times ahead, and you definitely have my support.

 

I understand that. But maybe getting caught and the threat of losing me is enough incentive in this case. I won't know until I chance it.

 

You're right when you say I've lost my respect for him. While I've not lost ALL respect, I've lost a great percentage of it. Especially since he in the beginning was telling me about how he's been cheated on and would never want to do that to anyone else, and I should just trust him, and so on and so on. Plus, the way he'd insult my friend for being 20 and dating a 17 year old (something I don't condone just for the record) and call her a pedophile, when it turns out all along he's been known for dating some girls younger than that! Plus the fact that he says he thought that 14 year old was 18 or 19... well still- you're 25 going on 26- why would you want a teenager anyway? Even if they *are* legal. ....that said, what's the difference then, between a 17 year old and an 18 year old? The fact that 18 is legal and 17 is not? Would he then date a 17 year old if it was 'legal'? Is it only legalities that stop him from dating girls so young? Hmm, food for thought, for moi. But yes I'm rambling again.

 

But I guess yes, I will discover this all on my own, and I'm sure not a one of you will be surprised if some months later I'm posting more horrible occurrences on this board. But at least I will have learned.. and I guess that's the thing here. I'm not psychic, I cannot predict what will happen, I'm going against most people's better judgment... but I am young. If something happens, there will be someone else one day. And at least I will have learned a little something, about what not to do and what to do in relationships. And I think we can't be shielded from everything, we must make mistakes to learn.

 

I guess I will be posting updates, good or bad, in the future. And you all can post "I told you so!" should something bad happen again. I won't blame anyone or be angry. I do realize and understand the risk I'm taking. I am fully aware that I could be making a horrible mistake. In the meantime, Thank you for your support. It's a good thing to have, especially since some seem rather condemning. (again, understandable, I don't blame anyone.)

[pregnantkitty_1985]

I know, you're absolutely right. I accept my responsibility in her continued involvement. I feel like I somewhat repented by apologizing to her and being genuinely nice to her but I know that's not sufficient enough. I can say now that no, she has no contact with my boyfriend and will never have contact with him ever, again. I can't say that we won't ride by and see her outside at the neighbor's house or walking down the road but other than that, we won't have contact with her. And we definitely won't slow down to talk to her, or anything. The most I would do is wave politely... but if my boyfriend does, I will rip his hands off hehe... At the time when all of this went on, I wasn't thinking straight, I admit. And the thought didn't occur to me that I should have had the police handle it. The girl herself did say she did not feel victimized- she clearly is one of those sorts who enjoys such attention and thought she could use such attention from him to score free cigarettes and such from him. She said as much. But that sort of behavior will get her in trouble with other men who will definitely take advantage of her, I know. So I should have done something regardless. I feel bad about it. She is still a kid with a developing brain like you said, and yes, should have been protected. I can't really do anything about it now, though. She herself didn't want the police called in and didn't feel it was necessary. I know- I'm the adult, should have made the decision, but I didn't. It was a mistake but everyone makes them. What do you think I should do now?

[pregnantkitty_1985]

I can't work out how to multi-quote so sorry for the unwieldy response.

 

I just put quotes around them like this- [ quote ] blah blah blah [ / quote ] except with no spaces. It will then translate out when you hit the submit button.

 

- I didn't mean to insult you with the comment about you putting aside the big issues, I apologise. I was just trying to get at the fact that you want to give him a chance even though other posters here have been explicit re walking away. But it's always easy to be objective and much more challenging to live these situations, so no judgement here from me about your approach.

 

It's okay, I can understand what you meant by it. The reason why I want to give him another chance is because I've always given people second chances. I've always been like that. Even if they ultimately end up disappointing me, at least I can say I tried. I also feel people can make horrible mistakes and change. Often, they don't. But who will know if they're not given the chance to prove themselves? I know that if I made a terrible mistake I'd want someone to give me the opportunity of a second chance. This is how I look at it.

 

- I think people can learn from their mistakes, but a weak character is a weak character. Our character is the fundamental aspect of who we are, and I agree with the above poster that this type of thing generally doesn't change except in the most extreme circumstances, such as a major loss, illness etc. And people's behaviour can change incrementally as they age of course. But a major shift in a short time based on guilt and trying to keep a girlfriend happy is less likely.

 

Not in a short time, no. But being that he knows he's in the doghouse, so to speak, now, I would think the next few months will be virtually worry-free. I think he will be very, very careful not to make any more stupid mistakes. Of course, he could then slip up and want to do something stupid again. Which is where his conscience should step in as well as his memory, and remember all of the drama and stress he himself has been through over the situation that he created. And maybe he'll think twice this time about doing something so idiotic. However, understanding the nature of human beings as I do, this may not be the case. He may again make an idiotic mistake, thinking I won't find out (which I probably will.) But that would be the difference between an honestly good man and a repeat offender who likely wouldn't change. I won't know till I find out for myself.. But my point is, during that time of good behavior, could I not find ways to build his character? Or help him accomplish that, anyway. I know he genuinely *wants* to. I think the use of a good therapist, anyway, could help.

 

The issue I am trying to explain here is that it's not about if he now realises what he did was wrong, or how sorry he is. The fact that it happened at all, and let's even put aside her age (as he didn't know it), means he is easily led, and has poor judgement. These are facts. I ask you, do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that in a completely different situation - one he can't predict and one you can't warn him about ahead of time - could you trust him to 'do the right thing' whatever that is? Does he have the moral compass within himself to do the right thing AT THE TIME IT'S REQUIRED? If you believe he does (and don't just want to believe) then you have decided to stay and forgive all this stuff. That's fine, your decision, but you then need to decide to move on from your concerns also and cease the worry because that's not fair on him or you.

 

No, I can't honestly say I know he will do the right thing. I have no idea. A part of me thinks he would think of the possible damage and loss that would incur from doing the wrong thing again. A part of me thinks he would remember all of the drama and stress he himself felt during this situation. And then do the right thing. But like I said, humans are prone to making repeat mistakes. I hope he would have learned from this and would do the right thing. I'll never know until later on.. .

 

But your point about doing the right thing "at the time it's required" is so... so... I can't think of the word. It's just brilliant though. Because yes, that IS what counts, doing the right thing at the right time instead of making mistake after mistake and 'feeling bad' about it later. Because what gets me is like, he'll say "well I feel so guilty and so bad about it... and I felt guilty and even hesitated before I said those things to her..." but WHY DID YOU NOT JUST TELL THAT IDIOT FRIEND OF YOURS NO... WHY DID YOU JUST NOT DO IT?? iF YOU FELT SO GUILTY? IF YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG???" That does indeed show a weak character, not just a weak character, but a weak MORAL character. Yes, he knew it was wrong- much as a bankrobber 'knows' it's wrong- but that does not stop them from committing the wrongful act much as it did not stop him from doing what he did. Plus, he'll say "well... Look at who was around me, I mean come on. It was Tim... he wouldn't leave me alone.." Maybe so, but you are an adult man. You had every right to tell him to go home and take the girl with him. This is also why I wonder if he really DID want to do that and the whole "Tim made me do it, I didn't want to look like a p-ssy" excuse is exactly that- an excuse. Because someone who's moral compass/conscience was inside their mind saying, "You know it's wrong, you've got a girl sleeping in the back..." probably wouldn't have done it... or would they... if they have a weak character yes... but then maybe not... see what I mean? It's one big convoluted mess, with many 'possibilities' and 'maybes' and here I am again, convincing myself he is guilty guilty guilty. And also rambling. I wish this stuff would just end. I'm sick of it. I wish it had never happened.

 

I know if I stay and forgive I should drop it but as you can see I just can't. And I keep bringing it up daily (it's like, my mouth just can't stop) and it's simulataneously annoying him and stressing him. He asked me how long would he have to pay for this. I don't know. My first thought is, why do you feel you should not have to pay for it? Why do you not accept responsibility? My second thought is, I'm being a real um, (profane language here) and causing a bunch of unnecessary stress. Then a third thought, an evil part of me, kicks in saying, "so what! he deserves it! Don't back down! Don't stop! If you back down you're just letting him walk all over you!" I guess neither is healthy.

 

 

- I agree here's no guarantee about anyone, but there are fundamental red flags about a person's basic personality, and there are situational red flags about stuff that went wrong where there might have been misunderstanding. As you can see from the above, I would like you to put aside the situational 'facts of the case' and see this as a personality issue. That IS a big deal, and worthy of serious analysis quite apart from what's happened in this particular situation.

 

You're right, it is a definite personality issue. And other things he's said and other details he's revealed about his past showed a lack of moralistic personality. Just because he met someone that has made him want to change, doesn't mean he will because that lack of morale and character is still a part of him This could be the case.

 

 

 

At the risk of completely overdoing this post, I'll tell you a little more about my ex, in case it helps.

 

I got together with my ex when I was 19, and loved him to bits. He loved me also, but was flakey and unsure of himself. So he was easily led by who he was hanging out with, and made lots of mistakes. He was always really sorry about what he did and was able to move on, but the fact is that he never really 'got it', because he was only able to exercise better judgement in something ONCE HE'D ALREADY STUFFED IT UP. He didn't have the backbone or moral compass to apply a general rule, or act with his own integrity. I always got the impression that deep down he thought things happened TO him (so his mistakes were 'bad luck', or he 'didn't know' something most people would have assumed etc) and that he had no direction and power of his own. This meant that he never really took responsibility, although when he knew how I felt about things he was very good at parroting back to me what he thought I wanted to hear.

 

You know what, that situation is really, really familiar. The whole, 'being really sorry and then wanting to move on' and never really 'getting it.' And only 'exercising better judgment once he'd already screwed it up.' ALSO, my man ALSO thinks things only happen to him. He's always saying "why does stuff always happen to meeee..." and blah blah. He doesn't seem to get that HE puts himself into these situations with the actions that HE chooses. He also makes it seem as if he has no direction or power of his own, and also never takes responsibility for things it seems. And I also sometimes suspect he is 'parroting back to me what I want to hear'. It's so similar that it's scary.

 

I also remember that we never had any really challenging conversations. I am kind of feisty and intense and he was a bit sooky and unimaginative. He agreed with me, or when he felt rebellious, he argued with me for the hell of it. There were no truly informed debates, and I rarely came away from a conversation having seen a new perspective. The scary thing is that when I was 19-20 and starting the relationship with him, I really noticed this. Over subsequent years I kind of stopped noticing. He was comfortable and sweet, so I felt that was 'enough'. I also thought those things were enough for me to just have to deal with his dumb mistakes about things (like your guy's recent problem). I didn't notice how much the compromises built up until it was over and I was MORTIFIED.

 

Was it his repeated mistakes and lack of challenging conversations that made the relationship fail, or was it something else? If you don't mind me being nosy. Did his repeated mistakes have anything to do with other females? What sort of dumb mistakes were they? I ask because your ex sounds so similar to my guy now. Just trying to get some perspective.

 

The statements can always be made 'but my case is different', 'but my guy isn't so bad', and hey, that's fair enough. None of us can truly affect your course of action or give you a real comparison you can trust; we all need to tread our own path in life. But I implore you to ask yourself what kind of person he is, not just if he's nice to you. 'Catering' to you, as you noted he does, is not actually that good either. You're a smart girl and you know it. At the risk of being presumptuous, I will suggest that you need someone who will not always cater to you, who will be good to you but also challenge you, and someone who you know you can leave in any situation and he won't let himself or you down. Can you say that about your current guy?

 

Nope. I can honestly say "I don't know..." And I know that's not a good thing.

[caro33]

I feel for you with this one, it's hard, and it's particularly so when your guy is nice and seems to want to change to please you. But yes, you need to try and ignore than as best you can, because the real issue is if he has got what it takes to be a good life partner for you. If you are really unsure about this I strongly suggest you at least delay the wedding.

 

And by a 'good life partner' I mean those things I mentioned before – can he step up to the plate when he needs to, can you trust him to be his own man, one you can respect and rely on? Believe me, when life's pressures kick in later on, the fact that he is 'nice' is not enough. Someone who shirks responsibility is really not someone you should be making long term plans with. Maybe he'll change, maybe he won't.

 

You asked about the dumb things my ex did. There were so many! Yes, there were women involved; to my knowledge there were three or so, and each thing happened in some less than full on cheating way, where the rules seemed blurry to him and there were friends pushing him and/or distance from me.

 

• There was the New Year's Eve night when he was 21, where he took off with his friends to a beach 4 hours away even though we had plans (they 'made him', he 'didn't have time to call', I was 'at work anyway') and made out with some girl (but he 'was drunk!', 'at least he didn't sleep with her', 'she made him')

• There was the time, at 22 or so (a few weeks after he had proclaimed undying love) that he then shut me out, didn't come and see me or call, when he took up with the resident town bike girl for a few wild nights. He was introduced to her by this friend of his who was trying to lead him astray. I didn't find out about that for a year or so, when I was told he 'was drunk!', she 'took advantage of him!', we were 'on a break!' (not that I knew it at the time).

• This close male friend from the above situations was bi-sexual and also a nasty piece of work who tried to get it on with my ex's sisters and all his girlfriends (incl me). One night this friend also tried it on with my ex, and some strange things seemed to happen. In my house, with me in the next room. But 'nothing happened' apparently, even though he was 'confused about his sexuality' and 'was drunk'. He denied this entire event took place later on.

• He went overseas hiking for 6 months and sent me letters about a girl there he was in love with. Oops. He denied the whole thing once he got back, and I had thrown out the letters. He was experiencing a whole 'going beyond yourself' heart of darkness thing in the jungle apparently, and couldn't be held responsible.

• He had to stay an hour away from me for two years while he was studying at a regional Uni campus, when he got a little too close to a girl there. Same excuses as above. And even once we'd cleared all that up and had moved on, he still acted funny about it and I think something was amiss. I think he couldn't bring himself to tell her he was back with me…

 

He cleaned up his act re the girls (and the guy) after those first two years, and we stopped with the one and off relationship cycle. He also stopped the drinking and became serious about life, including cutting off contact with some of the people who were terrible influences on him. I took him back once and for all, because he was a nice guy and he meant well…

 

But the next 8 years were still punctuated with dumb stuff, just more of the frustrating domestic variety. He couldn't pick up after himself, organise himself, or take the initiative on anything. He was very hobby oriented, where he'd get obsessed with something, then drop it and start something else. Science fiction books, tropical fish keeping, weight lifting, planning for our marriage, and ultimately mountain biking. He did his PhD and obsessed about that for a while. He was good at procrastinating so heavily that the eventual costs of managing a situation he could have dealt with earlier would be ten times what he'd delayed in the first place. I'm talking money here, lots of money, and time spent. Whether it was car maintenance, bills, moving house etc.

 

This all led to lots of stress for me. We'd have arguments where he'd say the thing I wanted him/us to do didn't need to be done (because apparently the more you plan for things the more likely something will go wrong), and then eventually, many hours/dollars etc later, he'd be all sheepish and say I was right all along. There's no pleasure in that, in fact it's extremely frustrating. I couldn't understand why he couldn't just internalise the need to do what needed to be done in the first place.

 

I also found myself in a kind of mother/counsellor position. I would talk him through every decision he had to make, and supported him constantly. He was often grateful, and seemed to 'get' an issue after we'd talked about it (a lot, and frequently after the arguments as above), but as I said before, he wasn't too good at applying those learnings ever again in a broader sense. When I needed support or advice he was no help to me whatsoever. He just didn't think about things or have any internal decision-making framework of his own.

 

It ended suddenly, when he announced one night that he didn't want to be in a relationship anymore, he wanted to concentrate on his mountain biking. Why did he leave? I'm not sure. He may have met someone else, I think this played a part. He had also completed his PhD a year ago, and I was one year into mine. He was over that whole intense study thing, bored at work and didn't want to support me doing my own research (I was working, I mean provide emotional support). He was very narcissistic and I think wanted to spend more time admiring himself in the mirror (he'd gone from scrawny and insecure to muscly and cocky). I had put on a few kilos and was having a hard time at work, I think I may have not adhered to his views of the type of girl a sexy sports guy like him should be with. Funny, when I gave him back the engagement ring he seemed shocked, and said he didn't regret asking me to marry him. To this day I don't understand that. I presume he had no idea what marriage really meant if he could stick by his decision to get engaged but also leave me when he felt like concentrating on his mountain biking…

 

After I asked him to move out (he didn't even realise he should, although he said unforgivable things to me), he came by to pick up his stuff a couple of times. He never explained what happened, and we never spoke again. Ten years shared and we never spoke again! I was deeply, deeply, upset. But, you know what? I was not really surprised. I knew he was flakey and I knew he couldn't really be relied upon. I think that's why I also never called him (as well as me being terrified I'd hear something I couldn't deal with).

 

Why did I stick around in that relationship? I loved him. When I was 19-20 I was just so happy to meet a nice guy, and I also had little relationship experience to compare it to. I was probably immature for that age, but I don't know. I just didn't know myself and my needs, and what is acceptable in the adult world like I do now. I would never enter into such a relationship now, but when I was younger I just felt so lucky to not be alone. And he was cute too *sigh*.

 

As the years went by, I couldn't see myself with anyone else. It seemed we were destined. All that time, even through the breaks, I never so much as kissed someone else. And we had great times! We laughed and laughed, and he seemed to get me and not judge me. I could be as coarse or funny or smart or stupid (or anything) as I wanted, and I felt accepted. As you know, that's rare, and mighty enticing to use as a reason to stick around.

 

So that's my long, boring story. By the way, I am getting married in two weeks. Met a wonderful man a year and a half ago, who has incredible integrity and is not the least bit flakey. Wow. And he also 'gets' me, can have a huge laugh with me, and can give me advice AS WELL.