Are the majority of gay men really vain?

[novaseeker]

What happens when they get too old to be 'hot' and what happens when you get too old to attract 'hot' men?

 

Of course, but this is an issue for straight men as well: what happens when they get too old to attract hot women?

 

I'm not arguing that this type of behavior isn't shallow, all I'm saying is that I don't think it's limited to gay men, I think straight men think the same way, but with a different target for their attention.

[FoxLocke]

It definitely isn't limited to gay men. Look at Donald Trump. When was the last time you saw him walking around with a woman over 40 who didn't look like she could win the Miss Universe contest?

[pianoguy]

Do women, straight or gay, ever have this problem? If not, why not? Do women not care about physical appearance?

[novaseeker]

Do women, straight or gay, ever have this problem? If not, why not? Do women not care about physical appearance?

 

I'd like to hear a woman respond, but my own sense is that physical appearance is important to women as well, but that women are generally significantly less visually stimulated by this than men are (sraight or gay). So it's a question of degree.

[UT]

By the time you start to lose your sex appeal your sex drive usually have diminished some and many have, by then, found someone to whom they are attracted to on more than a physical level. But for many men and women (gay or straight) this is a problem. I don't think it's so much a problem as it is a mental thing, a loss of self-esteem.

[Prufrock06]

Speaking about gay men and vanity and stereotypes,

 

Yesterday morning I was watching this show on MTV (I know, I know, what a great channel to get a dose of reality from, right?) called "Next." For those who aren't aware, the premise of the show is that there's this person who's looking for someone to date/be in a relationship with -- there's a bus full of five candidates who each get a turn with the contestant in order to see which person he or she gels best with. If the contestant doesn't like one of the candidates for any particular reason, he or she can say "NEXT!" and that person's out of the game.

 

So anyway, it just so happened that the contestant on this particular show was gay. Of course, I'm hooked immediately, not just because some of these guys are cute, but because I'm interested to see how this episode works out in light of the issues we've been discussing here in this thread. So one candiate comes out, the contestant shakes his hand, says, "Wow, you've got a weak handshake. NEXT!" Bam -- that guy's out of the running. Then, with another contestant who wasn't out to all his family members, the guy said "NEXT!" again. And so on and so on. Someone wasn't a strict vegetarian -- "NEXT!"

 

And I remember getting really upset and angry even at what was going on. I mean, a weak handshake?!? Is that really such an important criteria for establishing even a date? I couldn't believe it! The candidate didn't even take enough time to get to know the person before giving him the boot -- and some of them seemed like decent guys too! I guess I was just disgusted at how easily pop culture is pandering to these stereotypes still. I mean, MTV is supposed to be associated with the younger generations, right? And you'd think that they would recognize that not all gay men are flamboyant and vain and drama queens who call each other "female dogs" and "hoes" when they get booted off by the contestant? But even still, this idea of gay men as vain and superficial continues and though it is something I've noticed to a degree in other, heterosexual episodes of this television show, it was nothing as quick and abrupt as it was in this particular instance, which is why it stuck out for me so much. And when the five contestants would introduce themselves, they would each mention some silly, juvenile remark like, "Hi, I'm so and so, and I'm hung like a brontosaurus" or "Hi, I'm so and so, I do such and such, and this guy won't turn me down because I look corruptible" [he was the younger guy of the bunch]. ARRGHH!!!

 

Of course, that's probably what I get for watching MTV but still...it just really irked me not only because of the message and image it's perpetuating, but it makes me question if that's really the way it is out there in the dating world and whether I can even compete with that kind of nonsense. Then again, how many of us decent, un-superficial people could, regardless of sexual orientation? Are these even the type of people we want to be in a relationship with anyway?

[mgirl]

Interesting thoughts, but remember, he may have been hamming it up for the camera. Nevertheless though, it still sounds like a fair representation of the dominant gay male culture to me.

 

I guess to understand this phenomena a bit more, some research on stereotypes is necessary. From memory, i think i recall one of the theories behind stereotyping is cognitive economy. In other words, we put people into categories to reduce the load on our minds.

 

Why people are so driven by stereotypes is beyond me. I think it is mainly fear, in terms of the gay male population, that drives these people to conform to stereotypes. They cannot 'think' for themselves and possibly, because they do not fit entirely into a mainstream heterosexual society, they go along with the majority, which is the dominant gay culture, bound by muscles, fake tan, and a quick-fix attitude to relationships.

 

I once knew this guy, early to mid 20s, intelligent, very good looking, but also sensible, and i could not understand why he was trying to fit the gay stereotype. I mean, he had the moves, the voice and everything. Sometimes during our conversations i would see a glimpse of the real him and wondered why he continued to put up an act in front of me. I mean, i was no threat to him whatsoever! While i was speaking with him one day, i realised he was scared, scared of not fitting in, because he realised what a powerful force 'the herd' can be.

 

I personally do not like stereotypes and do everything i can do to break them, but some people are just slaves. Sometimes i believe we are actually genetically programmed to be slaves, but that is a radical theory of mine. Just think about it, slavery has been a theme throughout history, and continues to threaten our freedom! If you are not a slave to one thing, you are a slave to another. So, adhering to stereotypes is another form of slavery.

 

My theory on trying to be somebody else rather than yourself is that you must either be respulsed by yourself, or insecure about yourself. Or not strong enough to shine through.

 

Stereotypes make things a hell of a lot easier than developing an individual identity, that's for sure.

 

But the question still remains...

 

Why has the dominant gay male culture (the darkside of gay male culture) evolved the way it has? An obsession with body type and image, a fast-food attitude to commitment and just a general camp attitude and mannerisms.

 

Where did it all start? Why don't these guys embrace the "nerd" stereotype? Personally i prefer that

 

If it makes you feel a bit better, some people are starting to wake up to this. They are still in the minority though, but i have enjoyed the occasional moment where one of these Ken dolls have been the brunt of a joke or two. And there are people who do not subscribe to that attitude at all, but unfortunately, they are still in the minority, and the media still represent a majority of gay men in this stereotypical light.

 

I just can't believe how much money they spend on their bodies .

[novaseeker]

You are missing the point.

 

Straight men are no different.

 

It's a "men" issue, not a "gay men" issue.

[mgirl]

Yes, and gay men are men and i am sure we're all visual to a certain extent, but i don't know any heterosexual men who spend all their time at the gym, at tanning salons, and endless preening

 

Whilst i think heterosexual men are 'visual' too, in my experience, i don't think they obsess over their image quite so much. I could be wrong, but the heterosexual men i am thinking of, that is, the demographic of 18-25 year olds who parade down the main strip of the city i live in, looking for chics, seem to want to get married. Generally speaking, once they meet a suitable girl, they tend to settle down. Or maybe have an affair or two when they get older, who knows. But, on the whole, they don't seem to want the anonynous encounters as much as gay guys do, and when they do, i think the emphasis is on the actual experience rather than self-esteem that can be derived from such things.

 

It just seems to me that gay guys prefer the sexual experience, or the one-night-stand to boost their self-esteem. I mean, how can one single person crave so much sex?!

 

I have actually had this conversation with a few gay male friends of mine, and one in particular admitted to having had 2-3 encounters per night when he was younger and admitted that it was a self-esteem issue.

 

When you're talking about purely visual stuff, it makes sense that we can all be visual to a certain extent.

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Every little bit helps and it certainly makes me think.

[FoxLocke]

Yes, and gay men are men and i am sure we're all visual to a certain extent, but i don't know any heterosexual men who spend all their time at the gym, at tanning salons, and endless preening

 

Heterosexual men don't do that simply because women are not as shallow, which goes back to Novaseeker's point about it being a male issue.

 

If women graded hard on looks I guarantee that every straight guy would be in the gym, spending hours in the mirror, and reading GQ mag to make sure he has the right outfit.

Men are definitely more visual than women...

Look at how society places such an emphasis on female beauty. Our media is male driven and hypersexual.

 

A guy who can be 5'3, 200 pounds, balding, huge bear gut, and back hair will have the audacity to think that his mate ought to look like Heidi Klum.

However, all a straight guy has to do is take a shower and clean the house and his wife or girlfriend will see him as an Adonis.

 

 

Whilst i think heterosexual men are 'visual' too, in my experience, i don't think they obsess over their image quite so much. I could be wrong, but the heterosexual men i am thinking of, that is, the demographic of 18-25 year olds who parade down the main strip of the city i live in, looking for chics, seem to want to get married. Generally speaking, once they meet a suitable girl, they tend to settle down. Or maybe have an affair or two when they get older, who knows. But, on the whole, they don't seem to want the anonynous encounters as much as gay guys do, and when they do, i think the emphasis is on the actual experience rather than self-esteem that can be derived from such things.

 

 

Speaking as a young guy in this age group I beg to differ. I have alot of straight guy friends and believe me, they aren't looking to get married...atleast not now. They are looking to do every female with a pulse and then move onto the next one. It is a rarity when one is looking to get married between 18-25. If a guy is telling a girl that he wants to get married it is more than likely that he just wants to get into her pants and marraige is a good pick up line...

Even though I'm gay I'm still very much a guy and know how guys think.

 

If men weren't visual you would see women undergoing: Breast augmentations, butt implants, wonderbras, collegan lip injections, cosmetics, and tight clothing...

 

straight women and gay men are both trying to visually stimulate another guy so he will make an advance, no more no less.

 

Again, not all guys are like this but MANY are.

[novaseeker]

Yes, and gay men are men and i am sure we're all visual to a certain extent, but i don't know any heterosexual men who spend all their time at the gym, at tanning salons, and endless preening

Of course, because they are not being evaluated by women the way that a gay man is being evaluated by men. Again, it's about who the target is. Looks are important enough to women, but not nearly as important, initially, as is the case with many/most men (straight or gay). So who does the preening: straight women and gay men, because they are trying to attract the visual male's attention.

 

I could be wrong, but the heterosexual men i am thinking of, that is, the demographic of 18-25 year olds who parade down the main strip of the city i live in, looking for chics, seem to want to get married. Generally speaking, once they meet a suitable girl, they tend to settle down. Or maybe have an affair or two when they get older, who knows. But, on the whole, they don't seem to want the anonynous encounters as much as gay guys do, and when they do, i think the emphasis is on the actual experience rather than self-esteem that can be derived from such things.

Wow. I don't know about that! There are a lot, a lot of young straight men in that age bracket who are simply out to get "laid" as it were, or have serial casual relationships without commitment. Look at all the posts here about them! In all seriousness, the reason why straight men don't have the kind of anonymous encounter experience that some gay men seem to have is that most women won't play along with that ... if they could get women to do that in any significant numbers, you bet there'd be scads of straight men doing just that. It explains, in part, the popularity of "friends with benefits" relationships among some young men: all the sex and none of emotional involvement or commitment.

 

In the gay community, you're dealing with two men, so that means twice the amount of testosterone and male sex drive ... it means a lot of sex drive is in the room, in a lot of cases, to be honest. I'm not defending what I think is shallow behavior, and I don't appreciate the promiscuity that prevails in some parts of the gay community, but I do believe there are a lot of promiscuous straight men as well, and if women played along the way gay men do, it wouldn't be very different.

[Prufrock06]

Good points!

 

I still think, though, that there is a fundamental difference in the idea of vanity between heterosexual and homosexual males. I think these issues of vanity and superficiality and much more potent within homosexual circles than in heterosexual ones, and are much more toxic and problematic fo the former instead of the latter. Though a lot of heterosexual males (some of them friends of mine) worry about these issues of attractiveness and looking good I would still bank on it being much more of a problem for gay males than for straight ones -- probably given my own personal experience with this issue.

 

I was reading this article on link removed about gay men and body images the other day. Of course, I take all the articles on this page with a grain of salt, considering that sometimes this website seems to support in many ways the same stereotypes that we have been criticizing here on this board.

 

Still, the one key sentence in the article that stuck out for me was this: "I would add that another major problem with the desire of gay men to be muscular is the belief, accurate or otherwise, that gays have to physically resemble the men they're trying to attract." For the sake of this thread, let's substitute "muscular" with whatever state of physical "perfection" we're trying to achieve.

 

I think this idea does two things: first, it illustrates the difference between vanity and perfection in straight males and gay ones. Gay males are attracted to and looking for a member of the same sex -- thus, it seems to me there is a higher level of comparison and envy from one gay male body to another. Of course, a straight male can't really physically compare himself to a woman because their bodies are fundamentally different. He can compare himself to other straight males around him, but at the end of the day, these fellow straight males are not the ones that he's trying to get together with. So I think the fact that we're dealing with comparisons and issues between same sexes and not opposite ones makes this issue of vanity and "looking your best" a bit more tricky for the gay community.

 

Second point: this idea points out that not all gay men are interested in the same physical type of guy. Some guys like big, muscular men, other guys like huge hairy bears, other guys (like me) prefer average guys. To me personally, the idea of physical perfection, of muscles that look like sculpted marble, are a real turn-off. But again, we also need to realize that we're dealing with individual tastes here as well. It's kind of like the light at the end of the tunnel -- that there is essentially someone out there who would be interested in us the way we are. We assume that we need to be physically fit, we always need to look our best, because this is what we need to be in order to attract these same guys with these same qualities. But I'm sure there are your stereotypical Abercrombie model-types out there who are looking for just an average guy and not necessarily someone who looks as pefect as they do. Then again, the tricky part is what this says about us as individual gay men and what we seek in another guy -- are we looking for perfection even at the same time that we decry others for expecting it from us? Sometimes I feel a bit hypocritical for drooling over these "ideal" guys that I see walking around or on television, etc. even though I come here to these boards and write about how average I am and how average guys are probably the best guys to go with. It's definitely a tricky situation.

 

Anyway, for what it's worth, the article's an interesting read. Probably makes better sense than anything I just rambled about here.

 

Here's the link:

link removed

[FoxLocke]

I think this goes back to the "pressure to be perfect" that I, myself, often feel. I always try and be good at everything I do to, subconsciously, make up for the fact that I'm gay...If that makes any sense?

Don't get me wrong my gayness is not a defect to me, but it is that old mentality of trying so hard that alot of gay men feel...Some take it to extreme levels.

[mgirl]

Of course, because they are not being evaluated by women the way that a gay man is being evaluated by men. Again, it's about who the target is. Looks are important enough to women, but not nearly as important, initially, as is the case with many/most men (straight or gay). So who does the preening: straight women and gay men, because they are trying to attract the visual male's attention.

 

Wow. I don't know about that! There are a lot, a lot of young straight men in that age bracket who are simply out to get "laid" as it were, or have serial casual relationships without commitment.

 

I think the problem is that i do not know a lot of heterosexual males around that age, so i had to rely on my observations of a particular group/demographic i am aware of, who live at home, and constantly prowl around a couple of key meccas in the city i live in, looking for girlfriends, because it is a cultural expectation that they stay at home until they get married.

[mgirl]

I think this goes back to the "pressure to be perfect" that I, myself, often feel. I always try and be good at everything I do to, subconsciously, make up for the fact that I'm gay...If that makes any sense?

 

This was one of the original reasons for my "gay man insecurity and body image" theory, and could very well by one of the underlying bases for why gay men are so susceptable to stereotypes.

 

I still think that not all gay men want that much sex, that sometimes it is a means by which to gain acceptance or self-esteem.

 

Your thoughts?

[novaseeker]

who live at home, and constantly prowl around a couple of key meccas in the city i live in, looking for girlfriends, because it is a cultural expectation that they stay at home until they get married.

 

Oh I see. That's an interesting group. I suppose living under the cultural expectation of staying in the parental home until marriage certainly has an impact on sexual behavior among other things.