Ageism discussion

[volution]

It amazes me how so much of this world still discriminates based on physical age. Sex, race, disability discrimination are all illegal and considered wrong. Yet ageism - it's still legal, and few people consider it wrong.

 

There are a lot of topics in this forum about age - I can't believe that people ask if a couple of years between them is a problem!

 

Physical age is not an indicator of maturity, intelligence, responsibility, awareness, capability or worth.

 

Our world is far too focused on age. It is the primary identifier of virtually all people around the world (usually after gender).

 

Of course we must have some regulation based around age - for example alcohol legislation.

 

But concern with age is carried far too far, it causes stereotypes - fundamentally the old verus the young:

You're either one or the other - old or young, mature or immature, intelligent or unintelligent, committed or uncommitted, faithful or unfaithful.

This is absolutely crazy!!

Stereotypes are so successful at persisting, because people have so little time to work out things for themselves (or get to know people properly) these days, that they use 'short cuts' to assume things about others.

And these assumptions, about age, are often completely unfounded and wrong.

The old are mocked. The young are mocked.

Every 'age group' has been targetted and humiliated by society.

It used to be the 'old' that used to be prejudiced against, insulted and made fun of, the butt of countless jokes.

Then it was people in 'middle age' - they were having 'mid life crisises', having divorces, always splitting up, getting restless.

Finally it was 'teenagers' and 'those in their 20s' - 'useless layabouts', 'good-for-nothings', 'immature, unfaithful, uncommitting, unworthy, unthoughtful, unemotional, materialistic, worthless puss-balls on the anus of humanity'.

The young and old are constantly pitted against each other, in some kind of unspoken, unconscious battle. We can either be young, playful, innocent and immature. Or we can be old, serious, faithful and worldwise.

There is no middle ground.

 

It's not fair. We are all humans, no matter what our age.

And our age is just a number. Age is just in the mind. True maturity comes from within.

 

How does this affect relationships?

Well, for a start, it makes people unconsciously search out a mate of similar or same age. Look at any dating site - you will find that the search function is based on age. Not on interests. Not on hobbies. But age. (True, a few do have searches for interests etc., but AGE is the primary search factor).

When people have interests and hobbies that are shared by people usually outside their age range - they are in trouble. They will just be passed by on these dating services. I have plenty of first-hand experience of this. When I put my real age down, I got no replies. When I put down an age similar to people with the same interests, I got replies.

I think this speaks for itself.

When people base their relationships firstly on age, then they are going to have great difficulty in finding a compatible partner and lasting relationship.

People somehow assume that if someone is the same age, they will have the same interests, beliefs, maturity, goals, dreams, hopes, etc.

This is all wrong!

[cooldude1234]

Hey!

 

I agree with this soooo much. Being discriminated against for age does happen a lot. Even if you're "legal" being young is looked down upon in many places(workplace, school, etc.)

 

In my case, I am almost 20 but I LOOK like I am 16. So, in the eyes of employers, I might as well be 16 cause I am treated that way. It never occurred to them that I do the work of a 40 year old.

 

Anyway, our society is still a while away from breaking down age discrimination.

[Dgirllamius]

I agree!

 

Some people grow up faster than others. I mean, I have a friend the same age as me and she is quite mature for her age, and then theres me...I'm not the most mature person you could meet. I am young at heart, I like to have a laugh and basically make a fool out of myself ... something a lot of my friends of my age wouldn't do.

 

I don't think it matters how old or how young people are. I think it's all down to maturity, personality etc that makes the difference. I mean, if I was a mature person, I wouldn't want to date an immature person.

 

I can be mature when I want to be but I can be immature at the same time...I don't know which is worse lol.

 

Age is just a number and a number is nothing (god why can't I take my own advice?)

[lillady898]

I somewhat agree with this. Not completely, however. While age should not be the main factor in determining anything, age just play a huge part in how people go about their lives.

 

About stereotypes... They're not good to have, but we all stereotype, whether you're thinking about it or not. If you see a girl in a mini skirt and 5 inch heels walking with three guys, what are you going to think? Many people would come to the conclusion she probably get's around a lot. If you see a guy in a Michigan college football t-shirt, you'd stereotype him as a fan of college football, wouldn't you? If you saw spiked hair rocker wearing make-up and a Marilyn Manson t-shirt and a clean cut man wearing Polo, truthfully, who would you first approach? And don't just say that you wouldn't say hello because he doesn't look like the type of person you'd hang out with. That's judging, isn't it? People judge a book by it's cover, regardless of what anyone says. It is a way people protect themselves from things. The thing is, there is always those few exeptions. So it's those exeptions that cause a problem for judging. That is what makes judging wrong. And what takes it to the next level of wrongfulness, is when these judged people are not given the chance. That is where judging becomes wrong. But to say noone should judge... That is just something that will never go away. I honestly wouldn't believe anyone who says they had never judged someone based on age, gender, etc.

 

There are always exeptions, so don't take the following as black and white, or that this is how it is in every case. But in many cases Age=Experience=Maturity. Maturity comes with experience. People are not born with maturity. And experience is something comes with time. That is why age becomes less significant after a longer period of time. Sure, sometimes a younger person may be more mature than an older one, or vice versa, but that is affected by experience (how they were brought up, how they grew up, etc). So, when you look a bit closer, age and maturity can be linked.

 

See, I think another thing that makes age a big difference to people is that people at different ages are at different stages in their life. Unless two people work very hard, it is difficult to work through these stages. Whether you can see it right away or not, there is a huge difference between a college student and a high school student. A big difference between a college student and a graduate. Different experiences, and also 2 people are working at 2 different things. It makes it very difficult, and some people may not want to deal with that.

 

How can someone while saying that age doesn't matter say that, yeah it's okay to put a limit on alcohol age. It's the same thing.Why do they have that limit? The gov't believe people under 21 are not mature enough to handle it. Why is there an 18 year old age limit for cigarettes? The gov't believe people under 18 are not mature enough to handle it. So, is this wrong or right to you? Do you think we should start letting mature 11 year olds drink alcohol because they may be more mature that another 21 year old? I certainly don't.

 

People should always be given the chance to prove themselves, I do strongly believe. There are exceptions to almost every rule in life.

 

Sure, I don't like it when I hear that I'm too young. But why get angry? Why not just go out and prove yourself? Prove that you can do better than someone of an older age?[/b]

[goddess23]

VERY GOOD RESPONSE lil lady! i agree! ill put my two cents in-ive said it many times and ill say it again, stereotypes are GENERALLY TRUE, thats why they're steortypes, thats why they exist, everything has exceptions including science!! it sounds wrong when i say it like this, but i think stereotyping is a part of life. and if it takes on a disrespectful connotation then theres a problem. i mean most age limits seem ridiculous--we can go into the army at 18 but cant take a drink--what is that??! but its very true that age is part of experiences which is how we gain if not knowledge but wisdom. and that relationships can sometimes suffer because of a few years not because of interests or maturity (which is often veyr similar) but because of where the two people are in thier life. for example while I in high school am thinking about my physics test tomorrow, or the guy at the basketball game, someone at 19 is either working full time or in university/college and has a completely different lifestyle. we can talk for hours on the phone about our ideals but when he can go anywhere anytime i have parents that are still very much in control. while hes thinking about sex, im thinkking about just making out. and that could cause a problem. ofcourse there are exceptions but thats just an example of why age is a big part of life, especially relationships.

[volution]

I understand where you're coming from on the 'stages in life'.

It's true, different people are at different stages in their lives.

But it's NOT true that all people of one age are at those stages.

 

For example, a common stereotype is that people in their 20s only want to have fun, muck around, have casual relationships and just generally be immature. This is totally abhorrent. I am in my 20s, and I want none of this. Generally, my views, interests, and beliefs tend to be held by people in their 30s and 40s. My 'stage in life' is similar to those in their 30s and 40s. And although this could itself be labelled a stereotype, it is not, because it is an observation based on experience, and not a generalisation, used to bring comfort and superiority to a group of people or an individual.

 

Stereotypes are damaging and demoralising. The dictionary defines stereotpye as "A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group. ".

Says it all

I believe that people use stereotypes to make themselves feel superior to one group of people or another. Some 'older' people seem to believe that their age gives them automatic power, automatic wisdom and automatic more worth than younger people. This is very sad.

 

You say about 'proving yourself' - but WHY? WHY should someone have to prove themself, just because others have the WRONG idea about them.

Yes, I know, in society, especially in work and jobs, we have to prove to our employers on a trial period that we're worthy of keeping on.

But to apply the same logic to the whole of life and relationships is futile and destructive.

Shouldn't the people who have the WRONG ideas be the ones that change their attitudes and opinions?

It is hard to break many years of stereotypes and beliefs, but we as a culture cannot progress much further without them being dissolved, and new and more positive attitudes and beliefs being adopted.

We need to keep OPEN MINDS, especially when it comes to love and relationships. That so many relationships are splitting up all the time, again and again, says that we have a major problem on our hands. (People beliving lust/sex=love, the chemicals fading after 18 months and people think they fall out of love, etc.).

 

One thing I have noticed is that many people who are younger, if they like something that isn't stereotypical, they tout their age - they say "Hey, I like this music, and I'm only 16". It is sad that people have to resort to this to feel validated or accepted in this world.

 

Ageism is one of my personal favourite rants, because I have said beore hand about how dating and relationships revolve mainly around age, and because I personally encounter diabolical difficulty. I either have to wait 10 years for someone who doesn't care about age to come along, or settle for someone my own physical age who doesn't share anything in common with me. It's so depressing...

[goddess23]

one thing: wouldnt you consider yourself an exception. and lets change the word stereotype with generalization. maybe that will make it a little less harsh. i cannot change opinions, at least i dont expect to, but it is my belief that age does have a lot to do with who we are. ofcourse there are exceptions, honestly i consider myself one. but i can still say that most people my age are irresponsible and fall in and out of love. i also know that there are a few that dont fit into this generalization. but thats why its a generalization. chew on that.

[lillady898]

You are most definetly looking at proving yourself wrong. Life is based around proving yourself. That is how we get jobs, scholarships, get into college, even get a second date. Society wants proof. Proof that you can handle things. Proof you're good enough. It's not wrong or a bad thing to ask for. Are you going to jump into a serious relationship with someone you have spoken to for a total of five minutes? No. Why? You want proof that that person is the right person. Regardless of age, sex, or anything, people are forced into proving themselves. It's a part of life, and those who do not accept that generally will not succeed because they become resentful towards showing their good qualities, or in their eyes, proving themselves. It's not a bad thing. Everyone wants proof, and NOONE can deny that.

 

You're right, that not EVERYONE is the stereotype of their age group. That is totally correct. However, in reality, sterotypes arise from what the general population truly is. Many people with these stereotypical beleifs have usually once experienced the behaviors of "obnoxious teenagers" or "bitter old men." Like I stated before, stereotypes are what people use to protect themselves. Stereotypes are used all throughout society, and there is no way to avoid it.

 

And in addition to your also true definition of a stereotype, the dictionary also states that a stereotype is "one that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type." Or in other words, one who conforms. Maybe the problem does not lie in society stereotyping, but so many of society trying to conform and become a part of the stereotype, thus proving these stereotypes to be true. Our society is known to be one that conforms, which can show that many (probably not all) of these stereotypes are more than likely true.

 

I am young, however I will not allow myself to become bitter when someone tells me I am incompetant. I just smile, do my best, and usually things set themselves straight in time. Why get angry over something that is a part of life?

 

And by the way, stereotypes are only damaging or demoralizing if you allow it to be. Noone should really allow others' thoughts to affect their personal lives, goals, dreams, etc. If someone doesn't allow you to show you are completely able, then there is a problem. Though, even so, what goes around comes around. They'll find out sooner or later they made a mistake by not allowing you to prove yourself. But by someone merely saying you aren't good enough... That really shouldn't affect you.

 

I would also like to add this:

Generally, my views, interests, and beliefs tend to be held by people in their 30s and 40s.

Couldn't this be considered one of the stereotypes you are griping about? Isn't it a stereotype that your beleifs are generally (even while saying generally, because that is a term used in all stereotypes) shared with those of 30 and 40 year olds? That is a generalization on your part, because I am sure there are many people in their 30's and 40's who do not share your beleifs.

 

I could probably write a whole book on this...

[volution]

You are most definetly looking at proving yourself wrong. Life is based around proving yourself. That is how we get jobs, scholarships, get into college, even get a second date. Society wants proof. Proof that you can handle things. Proof you're good enough. It's not wrong or a bad thing to ask for. Are you going to jump into a serious relationship with someone you have spoken to for a total of five minutes? No. Why? You want proof that that person is the right person. Regardless of age, sex, or anything, people are forced into proving themselves. It's a part of life, and those who do not accept that generally will not succeed because they become resentful towards showing their good qualities, or in their eyes, proving themselves. It's not a bad thing. Everyone wants proof, and NOONE can deny that.

 

Everyone wants proof. Perhaps. But people take it to far... I didn't say I wasn't prepared to ever prove myself. But I did say, that if I'm not even GIVEN THE CHANCE to prove myself, what can I do?

What if my soulmate is 45, but she on meeting me buys into the stereotypes of my age, and lets me pass by without even being give the chance to prove myself? WHAT CAN I DO? WHAT CAN I DO?

If someone doesn't GIVE YOU THE CHANCE to prove yourself. What do you do? What can you do? What if you are so fed up, you don't want to do anything anymore?

 

 

And in addition to your also true definition of a stereotype, the dictionary also states that a stereotype is "one that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type." Or in other words, one who conforms. Maybe the problem does not lie in society stereotyping, but so many of society trying to conform and become a part of the stereotype, thus proving these stereotypes to be true. Our society is known to be one that conforms, which can show that many (probably not all) of these stereotypes are more than likely true.

 

This is interesting - I've been thinking the same thing.

"Social Pressure" to conform to a stereotype. IE: People believing that they must 'do this' or 'that', that is atypical of their stereotype, so that they will be 'accepted' or 'fit in'.

No-one got anywhere in this world by just 'fitting in'. People that broke out of their moulds, out of their stereotypes - they are the people that enjoyed real success and fulfilment.

A blind man managed to conquer Everest recently. I bet most people would have said "Oh no, you can't do that, it's too dangerous".

This is just one example of how someone broke out of their stereotype.

I bet he thought "No, I'm not staying at home anymore, sulking because I'm blind... I'm not going to listen to all these prejudiced personages tell me what I can and cannot do, or should or shouldn't do, or must or mustn't do." And so he conquered a mountain - both literally and figuratively.

I do believe though, that far far more people do blindly and willinglly resign themselves to acting out their stereotypes, than those who decide to try and break out of them, even though the toll can be huge.

 

I am young, however I will not allow myself to become bitter when someone tells me I am incompetant. I just smile, do my best, and usually things set themselves straight in time. Why get angry over something that is a part of life?

 

If we lived in a society where capital punishment was still allowed, and someone got hanged wrongfully, should we just say "oh it's part of life" or should we fight against it with all our veracity, because it is wrong?

It is wrong to be prejudiced against, so why should we have to accept it, just because it is 'the norm'?

 

 

And by the way, stereotypes are only damaging or demoralizing if you allow it to be. Noone should really allow others' thoughts to affect their personal lives, goals, dreams, etc. If someone doesn't allow you to show you are completely able, then there is a problem. Though, even so, what goes around comes around. They'll find out sooner or later they made a mistake by not allowing you to prove yourself. But by someone merely saying you aren't good enough... That really shouldn't affect you.

I've already metioned how it affects me. And it is not my fault. If I can't do or get something because of someone else's prejudice or stereotyping, then what else can I do than be affected by it?

What happens if you met someone, get on really well with them, and then they ask how old you are, you tell them the truth, and then they don't want to see you again? Are you telling me this will not affect you?

By the way, it happened to me at the start of last year, and didn't help much with my depression.

 

I would also like to add this:

Generally, my views, interests, and beliefs tend to be held by people in their 30s and 40s.

Couldn't this be considered one of the stereotypes you are griping about? Isn't it a stereotype that your beleifs are generally (even while saying generally, because that is a term used in all stereotypes) shared with those of 30 and 40 year olds? That is a generalization on your part, because I am sure there are many people in their 30's and 40's who do not share your beleifs.

I know what you're saying. But this is from DIRECT EXPERIENCE. There's a difference. MOST people just bandy about stereotypes and prejudices WITHOUT knowing or experiencing first hand. They just ASSUME about things, without bothering to find out the truth behind them - just like the perfect stereotype of age - "he's young so he must be ...this, this and this".

If you see a woman down the street screaming, and a man holding her arm, what would you first think? "He's trying to attacking her" would be most people's thoughts. What if he was helping her up, and she was in pain? What if they were doing a scene from a film? You'd never know the real reason until you FOUND OUT! I know that's a bit extreme example, but it's just making a point.

BECAUSE I HAVE DIRECT EXPERIENCE, I am able to make a comment without it being a stereotype. A stereotype by it's nature, is something that is used, by people who are UNINFORMED and DON'T REALLY KNOW about the thing they are stereotyping.

I KNOW a lot of people older than me DON'T share the same things. But I DO KNOW FROM DIRECT EXPERIENCE that MANY MANY MORE people that are older than me SHARE THE SAME INTERESTS, VALUES, BELIEFS, HOPES, GOALS, DREAMS than people the same age as me or younger.

If I had a Degree in Computing, why would I want to try and get a job as a Secretary?

Filtering out what works for YOU PERSONALLY is not stereotyping, it's ESSENTIAL in helping you get what you NEED or WANT.

[lillady898]

In your previous post you tried to draw a line between not being stereotyping and not stereotyping, but really all you brought to light was a gray area. An gray area in which was molded to fit your behavior as to call it nonstereotypical. Everyone has come into contact with nearly every stereotype in their lifetime, be it an old person, a young person, a rocker, or anything. So everyone has a stereotype. So are you saying that it is okay to stereotype as long as you have experienced the stereotype's actions? It seems hypocritical to me. It's either wrong or right, stereotype or not stereotype. There shouldn't be this gray area.

 

And I'm not saying you should say it's okay... Not at all. You don't have to be okay with it. But realistically, it is a fight you will never win. You can't tell people not to stereotype. Well, you can, but how many people will listen? Stereotypes are usually things made up in people's minds until they are proven otherwise. And it is way different from many other prejudices, because everyone has gone through the same prejudice at one point in time. Everyone has, or eventually will, deal with being the "irresponsible teen," the "mature middle-aged adult," or the "boring, brittle old Bridge player." It's unlike prejudices against sex. You're either female or male your whole life. It's unlike racism. You're either black or white, Native American or Asian, etc. It's unlike any other type of prejudice. Another reason being in that this is a prejudice that even the people who stereotype believe will "be grown out of." Noone believes you can grow out of being Asian, noone thinks you can grow out of being a girl, etc. But you do grown out of being a stereotyped age.

 

Why would you let someone stereotyping against you bug you? Why? It's pointless and irrational to allow it to get in the way of your everyday life. If someone is stereotyping against you, and not giving you that chance, why would you want a person who doesn't give you the benefit of the doubt? Why would you waste your time on an employer who will do you wrong by not hiring you due to age? The employers like that are usually the ones who will end up doing you wrong later down the road. There are better places to work than an unethical place. Why would you want to work for them anyways? And as for soulmates... Ask yourself this: Do you want your soulmate to be someone who is close-minded and won't give you a chance. Probably not. If anything I would be happy about it because it would give a good indication of whether that is really someone or a place you want to be with.

[volution]

Yet again, end of last week, the ugly beast of age prejudice reared it's ugly head. God I'm getting so f***** peed off with people in this world, I'm going to end up dying soon or just not bothering to talk to anyone ever again...

 

Briefly, I have been signed up on a UK-based interests site since last year. I had put down my age as older than myself last year, because I got no response with my real age on various other sites.

A woman sent me a message, saying she was quite interested, I sent her one back saying that I put down my age as older and explained the problems I had faced before. She sent me another message, saying oh that age didn't matter to her. I send her one back, telling her of my real age - and guess what? Yep, you guessed it, the sound of silence betrays her prejudice.

 

I really am getting so peed off with people being like this - I've got a right mind to send a nasty reply, though I won't because I'm too nice.

I don't know how much longer I can take this though.

 

There is precious little scope to meet like-minded people (ie:spiritual - NOT religious) in the UK with my interests other than through the Internet, so I'm becoming increasingly despaired with the continual pile of dog poo that this universe is serving upon my plate.

 

If I can't even find someone to be friends with in this country, I think I'm going to go truly insane. ](*,)

[codaaurora]

How does this affect relationships?

Well, for a start, it makes people unconsciously search out a mate of similar or same age.

 

While I agree that age should not be a factor in many walks of life, I am going to have to say that while some people mature quicker in some areas and others do not, there is the concern of Life Experiences.

 

Someone in their early teen, late teens or even early twenties, while mature in many things, are just not prepared mentally, physically, emotionally in areas that require experience in which to learn and grow.

 

How can a 14, 17, or even 21 year old possibly make the same life choices and decisions that a person in their 30's would make? They haven't experience enough to know how to make the decisions. Especially when it comes to relationships. Granted, love and passion are felt, but when they are between someone so young and unexperienced and someone much older, it's just not a fair proposition.

 

I personally look for someone closer to my age (not the exact range but within 5 years or so) as I know that they have already experienced the same things that I have experienced. They are in a similar group as me and experienced the same things growing up (like the 80's). I dated somone once who was 21 while I was 33 (not so long ago actually) and while he was extremely intelligent and very mature in his work ethics, he had not finished "growing". His perceptions of life were immature, his beliefs on how relationships work, on many different issues. I really enjoyed my time with him, but it was hard to talk about anything from my past as he didn't understand references to certain things or why they would have been so funny.

 

Either way, this is only my opinion and my experiences. LOL, I'm sure someone will disagree with me!

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

I agree that there is a lot of age descrimination, but remember that descrimination isn't neccessarily a bad thing. It can be legally justified. Like its legal for a church or temple to refuse a homosexual priest. Police officers are forced to retire at a certain age...would you want to be protected by some 100 officer? Then there is the controversial affirmative action programs, that descriminate based on race (against Caucasions) yet such programs do a lot of good to create a more equal and diverse society.

 

Descrimination isn't neccessarily wrong.

[Sheyda]

I just wanted to say that I am also getting very annoyed at people being so prejudiced and discriminating against certain people. I keep seeing it everywhere on the internet (even here), where people are asking for help and all people do is accuse so-and-so of being a paedophile/sex-crazed maniac who lusts for younger people and the younger person as some immature idiot who can't think for themselves and has fallen into a trap (even though they don't even know these people; these are usually silly stereotyped assumptions). I mean, it is fine if you are asking them to be careful or saying something like "I don't think you should trust this guy because it seems like he could be using you" and I respect people's opinions, but if all you have are responses that might as well be insults, you can keep your nasty opinions to yourself! This is a board where you help people; not knock down their self-esteem and upset them. Giving them a warning is fine, but calling someone they are currently infatuated with a paedophile or an immature baby isn't exactly helping; you're just going to make them angry and upset and they will probably end up ignoring anything else you say even if the next part is great advice. You could still say the same things, but there is a nicer and more polite way of doing it, you know!

 

codaaurora - I am only 19, but I can definitely relate to you on most 21-year-olds still having immature beliefs and that's a reason why I just happen to get on better with people older than me. In fact I click more with people in their 30s (such as my mum's friends) than I normally do with my own peers. However, when I came here to ask about turning a friendship into something more with someone who has just turned 31 I was pretty much told he was definitely a weirdo/rapist and that 30-somethings have no interest in being friends with people my age, when I have plenty of friends in their 30s and above that prove this is not true! Unfortunately I find there are a lot of people giving advice in this forum who seem to be completely against age gaps unless it is something like 2/3 years and both people are 21 and over. I've gone elsewhere to get advice on age gap relationships where people are more accepting so that I can get a proper advice instead of people flailing about screaming "Paedophile! Paedophile! He's going to rape you!".

[codaaurora]

Sheyda You know, I'm noticing that most of the people who discuss having a loving, mature relationship with someone who is either much younger or much older, have mainly been from people living in the UK. I'm beginning to think that perhaps this is not so much a age thing but a cultural one. I know that my cousin, who lives in London, was always much more mature in many ways than her American counterparts (oh my god were we immature!). I think that America takes an offense to these "older man, younger woman (teen and early twenties)" relationships. Mainly for the fact that we have a tendency of growing so much more slowly, whether from cultural hinderance and a society's inability to allow our younger generation the responsibilities and experiences that they would need in order to mature quicker, or just because our school system is so much more behind than other countries.