I still don't get it.

[MattW]

I'm not currently actively looking to date right now, but I'm still feeling pretty confused and frustrated being unable to "woo" a girl, especially when I try to watch and see what the more "successful" guys are doing to attract women. And honestly, I just don't get it.

 

I've observed plenty of guys who are very successful with women, that act the following way: They'll spend a lot of time around a particular girl, talking to, joking around, and teasing them, developing banter. However, said guys are VERY "sexually charged". Around girls, they're very liberal with making sexual jokes, innuendo, implications, suggestions, etc., hell, sometimes to me, they say things that sound downright perverse. Yet, girls seem to be "okay" with that, and even enjoy being around said guys. And I'm not even just talking about the shallow "easy to get with" kind of girls, even girls that seem smarter and more mature.

 

Now me, I'll try to spend time around a girl that I like, and I'll similarly talk, joke around, playfully tease, and try to build up banter with. But I try to do so in a more "sweet" kind of way. I try to stay away from saying or doing anything that could be misconstrued to come accross as even the least bit "sexual" in any way. Yet, if/ when I actually ask a girl out or otherwise communicate to her how I really feel, things get "weird" and she becomes uncomfortable around me, and in the most extreme cases, I get pegged as some kind of "sexual harasser".

 

I just don't understand how guys can get away with being so "sexual" towards women, and that's perfectly acceptable, yet I try to be nicer and way less overt when pursuing a girl, yet I end up coming off as the "creepy weirdo".

[Angler]

Girls know when a guy wants them sexually.

 

The overt, unapologetically sexually direct men are being honest about their desires. The woman can then decide to play along or tell him to get lost. Trying to be sweet and innocent -the friend - with the intention of hooking up is dishonest, and girls see right through it.

 

The guys who take the chances also get shot down. A lot. Better to be direct and get shot down than to try to score from the friend-zone.

[EssexMan]

Possibly the fact that you are trying to act a certain way makes you come accross as forced or unnatural? Maybe you are trying too hard?

[LoveSoDeep]

Girls know when a guy wants them sexually.

 

The overt, unapologetically sexually direct men are being honest about their desires. The woman can then decide to play along or tell him to get lost. Trying to be sweet and innocent -the friend - with the intention of hooking up is dishonest, and girls see right through it.

 

The guys who take the chances also get shot down. A lot. Better to be direct and get shot down than to try to score from the friend-zone.

 

This is very true. Those little sexual jokes and innuendo are what tells a girl that maybe he is physically attracted to her. We all know the sex and physical attraction are a big part in all romantic realtionships so we're not going to pretend they don;t exsist. If you are trying really ahrd to be thier friends and never let on that you find them sexually appealing then all the sudden you spring it on them they are going to feel mislead. Honestly...the only guys who inteact with me that way....are gay...so you may be coming off as not interested in women at all which to them seems perfectly safe and when you change the rules on them later it's a shock to say the least.

 

It's okay to not be crude but you're a guy ...wait no you're HUMAN...it's okay to admit you have sexual urges!

[blueidealist24]

Maybe you're coming off as a nice guy, but a bit socially awkward. Sometimes social awkwardness can give off a creep vibe mistakenly. I'm not saying you ARE like this, since I really have no idea, but think of someone like Howard Wolowitz on The Big Bang Theory.

 

Not all girls like guys who are overtly sexual though. I find it a turn-off.

[MattW]

Trying to be sweet and innocent -the friend - with the intention of hooking up is dishonest, and girls see right through it.

 

It's not like I'm trying to "work an angle", though. I'm not trying to disguise myself as a friend but really want to "hook up" with them. I just prefer to be seen as a respectable guy with good intentions, rather than risk looking like some overly sexual pervert.

 

Possibly the fact that you are trying to act a certain way makes you come accross as forced or unnatural? Maybe you are trying too hard?

 

I think it's more accurate to say I'm trying NOT to act a certain way -- that is, the more overt "sexually charged" way. The "sweet", less overt me IS the real "natural" me. I try to avoid anything remotely sexually suggestive because I don't want to be see as pervy, too interested in sex, and above all, I don't want to be disrespectful to women in any way. This is why I'm confused, because I want to be a more respectful kind of guy, but for some reason, I'm still pegged as "weird" and/ or "creepy" compared to the guys who are a lot more perverse. It doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not trying to put on an act or fool anyone; for me, sex just isn't a primary factor in pursuing a particular girl, and I try to reflect that when I'm doing the pursuing.

[MattW]

but think of someone like Howard Wolowitz on The Big Bang Theory.

 

Hah. I think personality-wise, I'd probably say I'm more of a "Leonard".

[EssexMan]

I try to avoid anything remotely sexually suggestive because I don't want to be see as pervy, too interested in sex, and above all, I don't want to be disrespectful to women in any way

 

Maybe you're bending over backwards too far here. Something "remotely sexually suggestive" isn't "pervy", "too interested in sex" or "disrespectful".

 

Sexual flirtation is part of flirtation (of course it's not all of it). As long as it's light-hearted early on, only girls who have major sexual uptightness themselves are going to see it as a threat.

[blueidealist24]

Hah. I think personality-wise, I'd probably say I'm more of a "Leonard".

 

Oh, ok.. Leonard seems like a dateable guy. I'm glad you didn't say Sheldon.

[oldenoughtoknow]

What the other posters are saying is that if you want something, you have to throw your hat in the ring. You're coming accross as a nice, androgynous friend, so friendship is all you're going to get. Don't be afraid of exerting your sexuality. It's not pervy - it's been happening since the beginning of time. In affairs of the heart, we're not THAT civilized.

[MattW]

Maybe you're bending over backwards too far here. Something "remotely sexually suggestive" isn't "pervy", "too interested in sex" or "disrespectful".

 

Sexual flirtation is part of flirtation (of course it's not all of it). As long as it's light-hearted early on, only girls who have major sexual uptightness themselves are going to see it as a threat.

 

I guess. It's just... I dunno, hard for me to tell what's "okay" and what's "not okay", or something to that effect. I'm shocked by half the stuff I hear other guys say to and around women, and I don't feel like I could get away with saying stuff like that, myself.

[EssexMan]

I'm shocked by half the stuff I hear other guys say to and around women, and I don't feel like I could get away with saying stuff like that, myself.

 

You don't have to go that far at all. Something as anodyne as You're looking nice today can be a clear enough signal.

[Wayfara]

I just don't understand how guys can get away with being so "sexual" towards women, and that's perfectly acceptable, yet I try to be nicer and way less overt when pursuing a girl, yet I end up coming off as the "creepy weirdo".

 

I think it might be about gradually building up the idea. When we meet someone we would want to make friends with we don't jump over them with our whole life story within the minute, that would make them uncomfortable. We start with something simple, first with a hi, then maybe some small talk, building up the friendship gradually before getting into the heavy stuff. That gives them time to get used to you in a friendship context so when you tell them more about yourself it won't feel rushed or awkward but like a natural progress of the friendship.

 

Most relationships are friendships with added romance, sex and commitment and these components take time to build up just like the friendship (unless it's a mutual case of instant love/lust). Being friendly might get someone to see you as a friend but it will probably not trigger them to see you in a romantic/sexual light, most of us have friendly friends we never have considered romantically. It is like trying to get someone hungry with a soft pillow, that could make someone sleepy but probably not hungry. Romantic/sexual innundoes can put out the thought of the two of you maybe becomming more than friends in a light way. That gives them time to consider you in that way so when you ask them out on a date it doesn't come out of nowhere. Otherwise, if they have never seen you in a romantic/sexual light it might feel weird for them to date you as people generally need time to get used to things.

 

You don't have to go that far at all. Something as anodyne as You're looking nice today can be a clear enough signal.

 

Yes, playfully hinting you find them attractive can be done pretty innocent, you don't have to turn into a crude oversexual guy to do it.

[Shady2003]

Yep it's true and well done for realising this - guys who get girls act through their own intentions and are not ashamed to express their sexuality.

[MattW]

Yep it's true and well done for realising this - guys who get girls act through their own intentions and are not ashamed to express their sexuality.

 

I suppose. I just tend to value other things in women over sexuality, and I want them to know that, yanno?

 

You don't have to go that far at all. Something as anodyne as You're looking nice today can be a clear enough signal.

 

Hm. What else?

 

Anyone want to maybe have a discussion of appropriate (but clear enough) versus inappropriate?

[BrianH46]

Unfortunately looks/self-assurance has a lot to do with what is appropriate and inappropriate. Cocky good looking guys can get away with a lot more and women will label him as being a player/smooth with women (yet still debatable). Yet if an unattractive self-defeated man try the same thing he will get labeled as being very creepy (undatable). However an unattractive man that is self-assured can get a response almost equal to an attractive confident man.

 

This goes both ways, I've had unattractive women aggressively come after me and I was just turned off, I've also had attractive women do the same to me but with much different results. It is very unfortunate, very unfair however it is how life is. Last note as you two get to know each other better you can push the envelope more without coming off as creepy.

[LoveSoDeep]

I think you can be more specific about what you find attractive that day. Like "I like your hair that way, I can see your eyes better." Or "that shirt makes your eyes look so blue/green/whatever" It shows that you noticed them physically but isn't overtly sexual.

 

ETA: If you focus on traits that aren't overtly sexual you should be safe. So talk about eyes, smile, hair things like that if it's not too off the wall even the smell of her perfume but you have to be fairly close in proximity to use that one.

[EssexMan]

I think you can be more specific about what you find attractive that day. Like "I like your hair that way, I can see your eyes better." Or "that shirt makes your eyes look so blue/green/whatever" It shows that you noticed them physically but isn't overtly sexual.

 

ETA: If you focus on traits that aren't overtly sexual you should be safe. So talk about eyes, smile, hair things like that if it's not too off the wall even the smell of her perfume but you have to be fairly close in proximity to use that one.

 

Really good point.

 

Matt, rather than us preparing lines for you in the abstract, why don't you give some examples of the kind of things you'd like to say to girls (or have tried saying in the past) and maybe we can give some feedback on them?

[EssexMan]

I suppose. I just tend to value other things in women over sexuality, and I want them to know that, yanno?

 

You can let them know that you value other things too.

 

What did you think of The Hobbit? You always seem a pretty good judge of movies.

 

No need for:

 

 

What did you think of The Hobbit? You always seem a pretty good judge of movies. And this is more important than your eyes!

[MattW]

Matt, rather than us preparing lines for you in the abstract, why don't you give some examples of the kind of things you'd like to say to girls (or have tried saying in the past) and maybe we can give some feedback on them?

 

Heh heh, hm. I don't know, I'm not sure there's much I'd "like" to say to girls that way (again, this kind of thing doesn't even really occur to me when I talk to girls), and on that same note, there's not much I've tried in the past. I can only maybe kinda think of two things, both concerning the last girl I was interested in; I remember once, she did her hair differently, and I kinda wanted to tell her that I thought it looked nice, but I felt weird saying anything, so I didn't (plus, at that point, me and her weren't really "talking" much anymore).

 

Then there was a time before that where she complained about something having gotten on her clothes, or something (I can't really remember), and without thinking, I kinda said something about her looking good. I had meant it in sort of a joking playful way, as in, I was teasing her about caring about looking good so much that she was complaining about getting something on her, but I don't think I properly conveyed that with my tone, and she didn't respond at all. So, I wasn't specifically trying to tell her she looked good, I was more trying to make a little joke that kinda fell flat.

[EssexMan]

once, she did her hair differently, and I kinda wanted to tell her that I thought it looked nice

 

That would be fine. Your new hairstyle really suits you is a good way to put it.

 

I was teasing her about caring about looking good so much that she was complaining about getting something on her

 

Teasing women about anything to do with their appearance (including weight, height, dress, etc.) can be dangerous. Some are pretty sensitive about these subjects (even if they have no reason to be) and teasing can backfire. It's better to say something straightforwardly nice (provided you mean it, of course).

[LoveSoDeep]

I agree. Even if you weren't talking much anymore a quick. "I don't think I've seen you do you hair that wsy before.... it looks nice, I like it." would probably not garner a negative reaction from most girls.

 

As for the second scenario Essex is right you have to be careful about teasing. However, I'd say if she was worried that she looked bad b/c she had spliied something a fairly safe comment would be "Oh, I didn't even notice it, you still look good to me."

 

If you find that you aren't really comfortable saying things like this practice with a girl you will never date...like a family member. Or if you work in a service industry try it with a few customers. They will still appreciate it and you'll get some good practice.

[blueidealist24]

I agree. Even if you weren't talking much anymore a quick. "I don't think I've seen you do you hair that wsy before.... it looks nice, I like it." would probably not garner a negative reaction from most girls.

 

As for the second scenario Essex is right you have to be careful about teasing. However, I'd say if she was worried that she looked bad b/c she had spliied something a fairly safe comment would be "Oh, I didn't even notice it, you still look good to me."

 

If you find that you aren't really comfortable saying things like this practice with a girl you will never date...like a family member. Or if you work in a service industry try it with a few customers. They will still appreciate it and you'll get some good practice.

 

I dunno about the customer thing, some customers would maybe think it was weird if they had never talked to him before. It would have to be really regular customers.

[LoveSoDeep]

I dunno about the customer thing, some customers would maybe think it was weird if they had never talked to him before. It would have to be really regular customers.

 

True it doesn't work in every situation but if say a server at a restaurant or bar told me "That shirt makes your eyes look so pretty." I'd maybe think he was trying for an extra big tip but I wouldn't be put off and since he may not see them again for a while it's a good way to just practice saying the words. On the other hand if my auto mechanic said the same thing I'd be really creeped out. I don't know what kind of job he has I was just trying to think of people he could practice on....customers may not be an option for him anyway.

[Slimpee]

Some guys just aren't naturally outgoing and charming. Some are more shy and reserved. Some are less confident. Think Vince Vaughn's character Trent vs. Jon Favreau's Mike in Swingers. Trent is naturally a forward, fast-talking charmer. Mike is more reserved and hurting from a breakup. His friends gave him peptalks to boost his confidence but they never told him to be more like Trent because that wasn't Mike's natural personality.

 

I honestly think that the best advice is to be the best possible version of yourself. It's about being comfortable with yourself through and through.

 

On another note, the cocky, PUA thing works best in college/early-to-mid 20's. From my experience, people tend to get tired of the stupid stuff and start to settle down. I've seen it numerous times in my own life.

 

As said repeatedly in your other threads, get to a great place with yourself and the women will follow. It's like building a house: you can't paint and decorate until you have a solid foundation...