What's Going On ?

[Hopefully Not]

Hi all. I'm new to the forum and thinking maybe I can learn something with your help.

 

This could go in many of the forum categories, but I'll start here and try to keep it short. Feel free to ask questions, point out what I'm doing wrong, or whatever it takes so that I might at least learn something if not be able to fix my marriage.

 

We're mid-30's, been together over 10 years and married almost 3 years. We have a lot in common, enjoyed many great times, and I admire a lot about my wife. If we could be civil and reasonable to each other, I think we could live a stellar life together and maybe even in some small way change the world for the better. Certainly we could change our world for the better. I'm not here to talk about the good stuff though, since that's not a problem.

 

We've been trapped for a very long time in a cycle of verbal fighting. I'd say it's in the realm of emotional and verbal abuse.

 

In short, my wife seems to lack any will to be self-reflective and take any responsiblity for her role in the arguing. She's got it pretty easy in life and in the marriage, so I've no idea where all the hostility comes from but the bottom line is she's totally unreasonable and irrational. To avoid having to address that, she goes on the attack against me.

 

I am not perfect, but I do hold being balanced and reasonable and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" at the apex of my goals & belief system. I do make efforts to improve and slowly but surely I do.

 

We're at the point that all we're left with as an option is really divorce, since she seems unwilling - openly hostile in fact - to any suggestions I make to repair our relationship. These suggestions are always along the lines of what relationship books, counsellors, and common sense recommend. If we weren't living in my home (bought and paid for by me, I mean), I'd surely have left by now.

 

As best as I can tell, since we can't discuss it without her going ballistic, is that her preferred method of dealing with it is to ignore our issues and just generally try to get along. I think she means well, but it leaves me completely in the dark plus that's what we've been doing for years and it hasn't worked at all. The cycle repeats, and if I point this out I'm accused of dwelling on the past even though it's also our present and, sadly, our future.

 

What's going on, in your opinion, and what can be done about it?

 

Thanks.

[DN]

It takes two to argue. So - what are you arguing about that cannot be resolved in a different way?

[Hopefully Not]

It takes two to argue. So - what are you arguing about that cannot be resolved in a different way?

 

It can all be resolved in a different way, but it means we'd both have to be rational and factual. We'd both have to want to discuss what is wrong rather than who is wrong. At this point, I'm alone in that.

 

Most of the stuff I am arguing about is defending myself. She interrupts constantly if I try to respond to her questions or accusations, frequently changing the topic so there can't be a resolution, or she'll say things that are completely false (and she knows it).

 

All I'm saying to her at this point is that these cycles exist, repeat, and they're what's keeping us down. Counsellors have said the same thing. Then I try to propose some solutions, or kindly remind of promises we've made, and it hits the fan.

 

If I just smile and pretend everything's OK, then she's happy, but a day or two after screaming/swearing matches and threatending divorce she'll get upset if I say I'm not OK with bringing a child into this situation, or if I'm just not keen on having sex with someone that's verbally abusive to me.

 

](*,)

[DN]

I mean what sort of issues are causing the arguments.

[Hopefully Not]

I mean what sort of issues are causing the arguments.

 

Sorry this is so long, but you asked. I appreciate your making the effort to reply, and really like your sig line.

 

From my perspective? Her refusal to take any responsiblity or to stick to fact and topic. Our issues are what's causing the arguments, and the arguments are our issues.

 

From her perspective, everything is an all-out attack on her as a person. If I say I don't appreciate her swearing and shouting, she says I don't like anything about her so why did I marry her? She's totally extreme.

 

 

That's the general, so here's a specific example from just this weekend. I ask if it's a good time for a short talk, she says it is and I ask if she has anything to discuss. She doesn't. I mention that later in the weekend I think it'd be good if we set a time to discuss some initiatives we can take to improve things. To give her an example I mention I'll probably want to discuss our health, budget (after almost 3 years of marriage, we still don't have one), and maybe we can enjoy small success together by spending 15 minutes tidying up some clutter.

 

She ignores my first two points and freaks out about the latter idea having nothing to do with interaction, etc. I calmly reply that it isn't about interacting, it's just about being civil enough to set a time to do something and then accomplish it, plus it's good for our household environment and maybe our mental one too (to get rid of clutter).

 

She again freaks "are you kidding me !!" about it being "housework", that the bathroom remodelling is more important, etc. and ignores the benefits I mentioned. I calmly explain I am not saying it is a top priority, just a way to gain a small victory together. I say she can not like my idea, but there's no reason to be hostile. I ask what idea she's got, and as usual she's got nothing. Then she says we could go for a bike ride, something we enjoy doing.

 

I agree hers is a great idea, and that there's no reason we couldn't do both over the course of a long-weekend. I then ask how she'd like if I reacted with hostility and derision to her suggestion. After all, it is not a priority and it doesn't foster communication either. She even admitted she picked biking over other activities because it'd be tougher to talk (fight). She agrees she wouldn't want me to respond that way, but sees no problem with the way she responded to me. It's a one-way street.

 

Funniest thing is she claims I'm talking down to her, yet she totally crapped on my idea and ignored my rebuttals or the positive points I raised or the other ideas I mentioned. When I calmly pointed this out, she freaks out and asks if I think that everything ever done wrong in our marriage is all her fault.

 

At times I suspect hidden cameras, and that I am the victim of some elaborate mean prank or psychological endurance test.

 

 

](*,)

[waveseer]

She feels very threatened by you. Any idea why?

[Hopefully Not]

She feels very threatened by you. Any idea why?

 

That's very preceptive. It's also true.

 

The reasons why are that I'm into accountability, putting an effort in, and going by what's known to work. In this case that'd be methods taught in relationship books, by counsellors, or by happy couples. The effort and accountability is what seems to threaten her. As my counsellor put it, "she seems to lack any notion of self-reflection".

 

If after months of inaction I nicely try, at a prearranged meeting time, to softly point out that we're not making progress because we're not making an effort, then I'm not a concerned & committed spouse but instead according to her I'm "provoking" her rages and stating that everything is her fault.

 

Fact is that even if adult people disagree they should at least be able to stick to topic, fact, and civility. True?

 

For what it's worht, I try to bring this stuff up with a "soft start". Lately she's started to chip away at a couple things she'd promised to do for a couple of years. I said sincerely that I noticed, and it meant a lot and showed she cared to move forward, however I don't want to ignore major recurring issues that are going unaddressed, and so I'd like to set aside time to discuss and work on those issues. Isn't that what most women would want to hear? She thinks I'm saying that she never does anything right.

 

And in case anyone is wondering, she's otherwise a functional adult and much smarter than she gives herself credit for. I doubt anyone else who knows her, other than her parents, would believe she has this raging angry/defensive side to her.

[waveseer]

HN, did she always shun self-reflection or is it a later development? If it was later, was there an event preceding her change?

[Hopefully Not]

HN, did she always shun self-reflection or is it a later development? If it was later, was there an event preceding her change?

 

Great question. I'd never thought about it.

 

I've got to say always.

 

There's nothing I can think of that reflects she's ever put a concerted effort into succeed at something, and creates all kinds of excuses if something points to her (behaviour or thinking) being the cause of a problem in or out of our marriage. Or she'll say it's not a problem because she's changed her mind about it.

 

Sometimes there's progress, even apparently sincere self-reflection after major fights, then regression. That's human nature I realize. Problem is once we ignore an issue and get along again all's well in her mind, and I'm "dwelling in the past" for having a problem with nothing actually being resolved and the problem coming up over and over.

 

I believe life, and I, have enabled this. Between her looks, smarts, family, and my past tolerance, she's never had a real problem in or out of the marriage and lives much better than her job would afford her.

[DN]

Ok - I read your post and have to say that i can see why she is getting upset.

 

We know why you are upset by her so let's leave that aside for now,

 

Frankly, you do come accross in your post as somewhat condescending as if you are talking to a child rather than an adult.

 

Second - you ask her if this is a good time to talk - and then immediately come out with three things all at once - and it seems as if you think it is mostly her fault these issues aren't addressed. (Asking her first if she has anything also looks more like a tactic rather than an honest willingness to hear her out and listen to her concerns)

 

I may be wrong - but you seem to me as if you are coming accross as if you are calm, wise, sensible person with the correct answers and she is a froward and irresponsible child.

 

That is not to say that your points and issues may not be valid. But you are not expressing them well from the looks of things. Being overly calm and 'patient' can be extremely irritating and sets people's back up to start with.

 

Tackle issues one at a time and make finding a solution an equal partnership rather than Wise instructing Foolish.

[Hopefully Not]

I'm not upset at her, I'm just tired of suffering poor behaviour.

 

Maybe I'm coming off as calm and rational, and maybe I actually am? Maybe someone has to take a friend or spouse aside and say "this behaviour isn't cool"? It has to be done to me on occasion and I value my friends or wife more for it. I don't think that's condescending, I think that's caring.

 

It sounds to me like you're doubting what I'm saying. I don't blame you, I honestly wouldn't believe it myself that adults could act this way until I started reading resources such as this forum and discovering how sadly common it is.

 

I'd like to clarify that I didn't "immediately come out with three things at once" or seek to have anything addressed at the time. I said I'd like it if we set aside time later in the weekend to talk, and I gave an example of the kind of thing I'd bring to the table. That's just to give her an idea of what kind of discussion and tone I'm asking for, and a chance to have her own ideas about the stuff I'm hoping to discuss. I thought it was being polite and a key step to ensuring a good meeting. I specifically said I didn't want these things addressed at the time, since I was asking for a meeting in a couple of days.

 

I thought that was clear so you may be right that I'm doing a poor job of expressing things.

 

I ask her to go first because I am desperately hoping that for once she might bring a concern or solution to the table. Yes, it also is a tactic so that she can't say I haven't considered what she has to say. She invents enough nasty things without me giving her extra rope to hang me with. Sincerely though, I want to hear what she has to say and I often spend hours addressing it, and I'd love to "tackle one issue at a time" but she refuses to tackle any issues.

 

Calm and patient can be irritating? Holy ---- I must be really out of touch. Fact is I have tried screaming, ranting and swearing. The only real success I've had is when I've been pushed so far that I do become a bad guy and lose my cool (verbally). Then after the calm I let my defenses down she thinks everything's OK and we should pretend all's well despite nothing being resolved. Then the cycle repeats.

[offplanet]

Ok - I read your post and have to say that i can see why she is getting upset.

 

 

Frankly, you do come accross in your post as somewhat condescending as if you are talking to a child rather than an adult.

 

I may be wrong - but you seem to me as if you are coming accross as if you are calm, wise, sensible person with the correct answers and she is a froward and irresponsible child.

 

That is not to say that your points and issues may not be valid. But you are not expressing them well from the looks of things. Being overly calm and 'patient' can be extremely irritating and sets people's back up to start with.

 

Tackle issues one at a time and make finding a solution an equal partnership rather than Wise instructing Foolish.

 

I picked up on that too, but couldn't put my finger on it till this poster expressed it so well.

 

You sound like you're about 20 years older than her, like you're the calm sensible orderly one, and she's the messy, disorganized child.

 

You do come accross as condescending towards her. And yes, being overly calm when the other person is stirred up can be extremely aggravating, making them even more stirred up, and making the calm one feel even more righteous, a vicious cycle.

 

Of course both sides have reason to feel put out, but its not just her fault, as you seem to think.

 

Can you see any fault on your own side?

[waveseer]

This is classic avoidance behavior stemming from fear. If she's always been this way then you probably have a good understanding of what she's afraid of. If you address her fears instead of her behavior with love, understanding, and logic you may get further. Of course, if she is unwilling to face her fears even with help (either yours or a counselors) then there is little you can do for her besides accept her exactly the way she is right now.

[Hopefully Not]

Offplanet, exactly what reasons does she have for feeling put out?

 

A lot of it is my fault. I enabled this for years. I kept believing in words and promises instead of actions and patterns. Now what?

 

Being rational and calm isn't the righteous thing, it's the right thing. I'm not going to go back on that vow just because she's acting hysterically. I can hardly ask someone to join me in at the very least least being civil and objective if I'm busy freaking out too.

 

Maybe I just make it "sound like" I'm being calm and sensible and she's being childish, and maybe that's the way it actually is. If people aren't going to take posts at face value, how can they give any help?

 

She's often said things counsellors have said to us is abusive, often says things she knows is flat-out hurtful or plain false, and people are suggesting keeping my cool and asking her to stay on topic is the problem? Wow. You say you'd leave if your spouse beggeed you to try the advice of happy couples and of counsellors. Would you say all that to a female poster in the same situation?

[Hopefully Not]

This is classic avoidance behavior stemming from fear. If she's always been this way then you probably have a good understanding of what she's afraid of. If you address her fears instead of her behavior with love, understanding, and logic you may get further. Of course, if she is unwilling to face her fears even with help (either yours or a counselors) then there is little you can do for her besides accept her exactly the way she is right now.

 

Thanks. I'll give this some thought and see what I can come up with as far as reasons for fear goes.

 

A lot of people are afraid to succeed, perhaps thinking they don't deserve it, so it might be that simple. Of course if we put some work in then we'd deserve it, but that's logic and while I appreciate your suggestion it seems she is almost fatally allergic to logic. Believe me I've tried that. It's practically a dirty word in our household, and you've no idea how badly it hurts and saddens me to admit that even to a stranger online.

[SnowFox]

I'll err on the side of believing you and say that there are people out there who have deeply entrenched habits and personality traits such as being impulsive, lacking emotional regulation skills, tending toward being more superficial and less introspective, tending toward hostility when feeling threatened or provoked, interpreting neutral or benign feedback as criticism or an attack, for just a few examples.

 

There are thousands of people in the world who are this way. And most of them do not feel any reason to change because the consequences of their behavior are ones they can find ways to avoid or escape from.

 

Usually, people with deeply entrenched emotional and behavioral patterns, patterns that span most of their adult life (and usually teenage years, sometimes even childhood), cause more suffering for the people around them than for themselves. Family members are often driven to counseling due to trying to cope with these pervasive maladaptive ways of dealing with the world.

 

There may be an actual, true limit to your wife's capacity and willingness to change. Under the treatment of a competent and well-trained psychologist, she might be able to change, but its certainly possible that you, as her husband, will not ever be able to adopt a set of ways of behaving toward her that will ever effect any change in her habitual ways of feeling and acting.

 

Of course, I have no way of knowing the actual nature of your relationship, I am just offering this as one possible way of looking at the situation.

 

I wish you the best.

[Circe]

Ok - I read your post and have to say that i can see why she is getting upset.

 

 

Wow - I am so glad DN said that - if he thinks that then I feel a bit more justified in my thoughts (sometimes I wonder if I take the female side too often)..

 

Personally.. having read every word of every post up to this point - I have a feeling she is incredibly patronised by you. Not threatened. Patronised.

 

Why do you keep emphasising how "soft" and "calm" you are compared to how irriational and freakish she is? As that somehow makes your position more reasonable?

 

From fighting with my dad in my younger years one thing I learned was that I could drive him to the brink of insanity - not by shouting and yelling at him in an insane manner (which was his mode of fighting) but by standing there .. so calm.. so unaffected by the anger.. and so horribly condescending because I knew I was smarter and had more control and was right.

 

So I was calm - he was losing the plot - was I any fairer or better than him in that fight? any less responsible? NO.

 

Passive aggression is the worst kind.

 

You are being patronising and condescending and its driving her nuts. You think you have all the relationship books and the therapists on your side. You no doubt make her feel this way too. So she has nothing but her feelings and her emotions and no validation of them.

 

And I'm sorry but "well done dear on initiating those small changes that I've asked you for the last 2 yrs to make.. but here's more you can work on" - thats not encouragement. Something every wife wants to hear?

 

Gosh.. if my husband spoke to me like that.. wow. I'd wonder where the warm, loving, affectionate, compassionate, thoughtful human being I'd married had gone.

 

Sorry..

[Circe]

It sounds to me like you're doubting what I'm saying. I don't blame you, I honestly wouldn't believe it myself that adults could act this way until I started reading resources such as this forum and discovering how sadly common it is.

 

 

You did not address this to me - but I for one don't trust your perception on this at all.

 

Let me put it this way - you are painting yourself as calm, rational, and in the right. Perhaps not in the right on every specific issue - but you think you have the overall picture in mind and are working towards a better relationship - and she is not.

 

You paint her as an irrational and unreasonable banshee. And you say she's always been this way. That she fools everyone except you and her parents.

 

You've been married 10 years.

 

Now either a smart, calm, rational person with a deep sense of self-reflection, fell in love with and married this woman and tolerated this behaviour for a DECADE (indicating some rather massochistic tendancies.. or a complete lack of a backbone - neither of which you paint youself as having).. orrrrrr.. somethings not right or accurate about the picture you paint.

 

 

I suspect you arent taking responsibility for your part in things as much as you believe. Perhaps she wants some love and care. Not cold rationality. Loving someone means letting them be who they are.

 

Also - why would you "set aside" time to talk? To improve the relationship? What exactly do you talk about during these talks? They sound like rather frustrating stressful experiences to be involved in. I dont understand. If I (or my H) have an issue - we just talk to each other then and there. We don't set a timetable for discussion in a school teacher/naughty child type style. It sounds like detention.

 

And I still don't understand what these "issues" are. Perhaps you are encouraging fighting about nothing - and then coming at her with a bunch of "rational" solutions (that don't actually address HER needs) because it enables you to feel superior and enables you to walk away and not taking responsibility in things?

 

Maybe she doesnt want to talk to you about what she sees the issues as being because she thinks you'll just talk over her or rationalise your way out of being responsible? Kind of like you are doing in the posts above. Maybe she's given up and would rather just ignore the issues and avoid talking all together.

 

And again - what exactly are the issues?

 

Not wanting to do as much housework as you do and when you want to? That sounds like the issue - yet you will reformulate it as something which sounds deceptively more meaningful like "set goals and accomplish them together". For gods sake.. its tidying up. It's not a mutual goal or mutual accomplishment if you are the only one of the two of you who sees it as a goal.

 

And there's no law (of reason) that requires her to see tidying up clutter for 15 mins as a goal in the moment of time you see it as a goal.

 

I think you made something tiny into something massive and made her feel like a big failure for no reason whatsoever and you should think about how often you do that.

[Hopefully Not]

Indigo, I'm not going to waste my time on people calling me a liar any further, but I will reply to your post because you got at a couple things right.

 

However you've got so much of it so wrong or simply fabricated that it was a waste of time for you to read every post and type all that, quite frankly. I didn't write we've been married 10 years, for example, not even close. Worse, your supposing and ridiculing what I said to her - which differs significantly in tone and content from what I actually said - is purely your imagination.

 

I need to stay calm to avoid violence and to preserve whatever self-respect I have left.

 

I stress that I am remaining calm and using "soft starts" because a major part of my conern is that someone would explode in anger and irrationality when they're being treated respectfully. You say I haven't detailed the issues? THAT is the issue.

 

And ... are you ready for this ... it's what I have been told to do by counsellors and what she has repeatedly asked me to do. It's also what I'd want done for me. No one likes to be bombarded at random in their home with serious stuff, so it's the right and respectful thing to do to schedule time for it. Again, get ready ... it's also what counsellors and she has asked me to do.

 

I'm glad you and your spouse can talk whenever. I wish I could say the same.

 

Never did I suggest staying calm makes me more reasonable. That'd be ridiculous. Staying on topic, not interrupting, admitting when I've made a mistake, and being objective makes me reasonable. I get the total opposite in return.

 

You mentioned passive aggression. That's sweet irony. When she took a test on those traits she scored on basically every single one. Same on another "disorder" that one counsellor told me is something to be "extremely concerned about if an adult regularly displays those behaviours". When I suggested twice over the course of six months to her that's cause to maybe be a bit concerned, she went to one solo counselling session and later admitted to me that she basically told the counsellor I was "badgering her constantly about having disorders" so of course rather than getting any insight the counsellor told her she needs to draw boundaries, etc.

 

That'd be great advice if it what she claimed was true. At least the counsellor believed her instead of "helping" her by suggestiong she's lying.

 

I didn't say she's "fooled" others. She's not close enough to anyone else, and never has been since I've known her, for them to seen her ugly side. Once in awhile a "close" friend drops off for no clear (to me) reason but it's always the other girl's fault. I used to take it at face value, but after awhile I notice a pattern. Maybe they've seen what I've seen.

 

I tolerated all this so long because we were once much younger, and honestly I matured late too so I could relate. Mostly it's because she kept lying to me saying she wanted us to communicate, to not fight and hold back concerns like other couples, to be a good example and maybe help others, to do what the books say, etc. etc. etc. I wanted to believe it, so I did. A 24-year-old acting like a brat is not so bad. A 34-year-old that wants to have kids acting like a brat is a real problem.

 

That's the thing you got right. Lack of a backbone. I'm not at all like that in any other aspect of my life, and ironically my work involves spotting patterns but when it came to my personal life I willfully ignored it. I thought we had time and it'd make us stronger once we turned things around. Now I've tried everything, and time has run out to be starting a family in this situation or to find someone else to do so with.

 

I'm not looking for sympathy or to win over people who already have their minds made up that the man must be the bad guy and abuser every time. I'm just telling it like it is. I enabled this. It's largely my fault. I can admit that.

 

"And there's no law (of reason) that requires her to see tidying up clutter for 15 mins as a goal in the moment of time you see it as a goal."

 

This is totally correct. I agree with you completely. Any reason why someone can't state that with civility? Did you need to scream and curse or belittle me to say so? Your marriage may be so healthy that citing a bit of tidying as a "goal" seems silly to you. I envy that. There was a time I'd have laughed at anyone posting such a thing, so I can understand your sentiment. Sad fact is that in our marriage being able to do anything positive together for 15 minutes would be an amazing success.

 

It was simply the safest, most benign thing I could think of off the top of my head at that moment. It didn't need us to prepare, to go anywhere, or to even face each other. Sure, I could have come up with a better idea, but I didn't deserve to be mocked and cursed for it.

 

Again, THAT is exactly the problem. It's called "abuse" when a man does it to a woman. No problem, I used to the double-standard by now.

[Hopefully Not]

Sincerely I want to thank you for your neutral tone and helpful post. A lot of it rings familiar.

 

"most of them do not feel any reason to change because the consequences of their behavior are ones they can find ways to avoid or escape from."

 

If anything, she's been rewarded very well because of it. I'm understating it when I say I've enabled it. "Enriched" may be a better word.

 

"Family members are often driven to counseling..."

 

Been there. I had a very dark period recently because of this that I'm only partly out of, but much better overall. That's also why I can't risk losing my cool and why I suppose I need more-so support than help. If there were groups like AA for my situation, I'd go to daily meetings.

 

"its certainly possible that you, as her husband, will not ever be able to adopt a set of ways of behaving toward her that will ever effect any change"

 

It's taken me a long time to realize this. Taking the next step is the toughest. I'm not allowed to state my concerns, or to have reasonable feelings such as not wanting sex or a child with someone that verbally abuses me regularly. She can't get help from a psychologist, because she wouldn't be able to state what the issues actually are. She'll occasionally offer a clipping that talks about issues in marriage that makes me think she's finally getting it - describes us to a "t" - yet she says "that's what you're doing" to me and can't see herself in it whatsoever.

 

Since people want examples, one such article was about interrupting, changing the topic, and making stuff up. She does this to me constantly. I enable it by trying to address each and every turn. Then she says I'm confusing her by jumping all over the place and going on and on, and that it's my fault that she can no longer remember what she said (screamed, fabricated) 5 minutes ago. No exaggeration. This is common. With tricks like that, she'd make a great lawyer.

 

Sometimes she'll literally argue even when I simply and sincerely agree with her without discussion. Or she'll tell me what I really mean, and of course it's always something nasty not what I actually said and feel. No joke. It's very surreal.

 

I guess I'm venting now, but people might get why I said earlier that logic sure as heck won't work. I'm literally afraid to even use the word around her.

 

"I wish you the best."

 

Sincerely again, thanks very much.

[DN]

Perhaps you should consider if your approach to these problems with her is working - and if not - why not.

 

It's all very well to put the blame, or most of it on her, but that won't solve anything.

 

The basic problem is that you want her to do things that she doesn't want to do. Since your method in getting her to see things your way isn't working you had best try something else, despite what counselors and books are telling you.

[Hopefully Not]

Perhaps you should consider if your approach to these problems with her is working - and if not - why not.

 

It's all very well to put the blame, or most of it on her, but that won't solve anything.

 

The basic problem is that you want her to do things that she doesn't want to do. Since your method in getting her to see things your way isn't working you had best try something else, despite what counselors and books are telling you.

 

 

Thanks. That's good insight.

 

Problem is, as I told Indigo above, this is exactly what she has asked me many times to do. And she's told me many times that she wants the same things as what those resources have recommended.

 

Her parents don't communicate well and from what I've been told never did. Her dad says nothing and her brother is dead quiet too. She says she wants open discussions and to share our feelings and to not go to bed angry, but she'll actually prevent any discussion or resolution, scream and swear, then storm off to sleep in another room.

 

What actually works is the silent treatment. Then after the smoke clears she'll be sweet and even amorous. We might even have good sex, but then she'll complain, even actually during sex, that we're not doing it in a way that could lead to making babies (I'll pull out) and I'm forced to say how I feel about unresolved issues and the cycle begins again.

 

It's left me feeling totally conned, and with no options other than divorce and accepting I waited so long that I'm very likely out of the running for a healthy relationship that can lead to having a family.

 

By the way I am not blaming anyone. That's her thing always going on about who is to blame. I am just telling it like it is. Relevant facts. If anyone, I have blamed only me. I enabled this for a long time, and it's been to both our detriment. That doesn't make it any easier to accept.

[Circe]

Its not that cleaning up for 15 mins is not a goal. I'm saying if not something she prioritises at all at the time you asked for it (when she was preoccupied with the remodelling) then its not a goal for Her. Don't you want it to be something you Both want to work towards?

 

Also telling someone they have a disorder? Unless she's been personally and directly diagnosed by her own health professional (and not by Your counselor via your accounts of her behaviour) that's not a fair thing to do to her.

 

Let me guess - borderline personality disorder?

 

So, if she lies all the time, screams, shouts and curses for no reason, levels false accusations at you, picks fights for no reason, and is such a relentless menace and always has been - why get married? Not a rhetorical qn - I'm genuinely curious?

 

Do you love her?

 

Any chance she picks up on the fact that you don't (or suspects you don't) and is acting out?

 

On your account - she's nuts. I think its more likely that you don't communicate well and when you try to communicate better by following the relationship books or counsellors advice you do it in a way that either patronises her or makes her feel confused or manipulated (I know its not something to get angry about but it doesn't really follow to set aside time to talk about the relationship and then suggest a bonding activity. Maybe she feels like you are trying to manipulate her into doing something she doesn't want to do. Which is not your intention but she doesn't trust you anymore and you have a history of bad communication).

 

I apologise if I was harsh before and made too many assumptions but I feel skeptical when someone has what seems to be massive relationship issues but thinks its all because the other person is irrational and encumberred with disorders.

[Hopefully Not]

I do want it to be something we both want to work towards. I've said so. The issue wasn't she disagreed. I stated at least twice here that I wasn't even looking for a discussion at the time and made that clear to her. In focusing on this minutea I suggest you're missing the bigger picture.

 

The issue is that she disagreed by shouting, swearing and belittling. Always does. And completely ignoring the positive reasons I gave for my suggestion, in favour of going on about what a bad idea it is. Then she suggests something that is ironically also not a priority, which I said I was glad to do.

 

I did not diagnose her with anything. I made that clear. I only showed concern, as any decent person would when someone they care about cops to a long list of problem behaviours. It's no different than her asking me to get my moles checked by a doctor, and it's equally reasonable. She took a test, basically one that said do you have issues with this 'n' that, and to my surprise she had a totally solid grasp of what she was doing at that time.

 

So, again, she diagnosed herelf. My counsellor only commented on things she admitted to, not my version of things. And no, it was not "borderline personality disorder".

 

Why get married? It wasn't all bad, and she repeatedly vowed that she wanted to change for the better and put effort into communication, etc. My mistake. I knew better, based on our history, but I had hope and faith. Again, my mistake entirely. I can admit that.

 

Do I love her? No, my feeling is of being conned. How could any sane person love someone that's acting this way? I'll say that I could love her again. I'll say I still admire things about her despite how she acts.

 

OK, maybe I don't communicate well. Funny thing is that my whole life everyone has told me I'm an excellent communicator, easy to talk to etc. Men, women, bosses, kids. It's gotten me ahead professionally. I have a wide range of close friends who actively engage me on a variety of topics, to the point I feel like I'm being interviewed at times. The only person I have a problem communicating with is her.

 

In over 10 years I have never once heard her sincerely say "my mistake". Does that sound normal or self-aware? The best I've ever gotten is an admission that what she did or said is totally inappropriate, but then she'll go on about how I provoked it so in her opinion she's justified (her term).

 

What if a guy says "I hit her and that's wrong but she knows I don't like green onions in my eggs so I was provoked and she deserved it."? She's attended a couple of anger groups, but never stuck with it. She attends church, but acts anything but Christian towards me.

 

More on topic, you must have missed the parts where I explain that she's asked me, repeatedly, to do what the counsellors and books say.

 

 

I'm honestly not out to malign her or trying to get anyone to take my side. I guess I was hoping someone could relate, offer some kind of hope or support, or some idea what else can be done other than being a doormat.

[offplanet]

Offplanet, exactly what reasons does she have for feeling put out?

 

A lot of it is my fault. I enabled this for years. I kept believing in words and promises instead of actions and patterns. Now what?

 

Being rational and calm isn't the righteous thing, it's the right thing. I'm not going to go back on that vow just because she's acting hysterically. I can hardly ask someone to join me in at the very least least being civil and objective if I'm busy freaking out too.

 

Maybe I just make it "sound like" I'm being calm and sensible and she's being childish, and maybe that's the way it actually is. If people aren't going to take posts at face value, how can they give any help?

Sorry, I might not know what I'm talking about. It sounds very complex. All the best.

Offplanet