rich_1517 - her confidence is too high, im for granted

[rich_1517]

Ok so heres date 2. breif background. she left in january saying i need two months to decide. came back on march 15th to say i see you more as friend, but lets date you have changed so much.

 

3 years together. she waited way too long to leave or show her frustrations. i didnt move in on two invites afriad to committ, had reservations about her being intimate and emotionally open.

 

ok so i got there 20 minutes late. (oops) she had a really nice dinner ready. we talked i was fine and decided to be just there, let things happen not control. practice listening.

 

we headed to a concert then realised it would be lame, so went to coffee. then for a walk. we had fun, whistling, singing. we got back to her house and she wanted me to come in and play some board games, i said ok but really short have to get going.

 

sounds like fun right? it was but she is too confident, i dont see real respect or romantic anything going here. it felt like two exes hanging out. not laying the groundwork for something new.

 

i am frustrated and bummed again. fact is i feel the more i show up i look weak, if i walk i dont have enough clout to make her chase.

 

she is soooo under control and reserved about me that its very hard. at the same time she is more fun and outgoing then before.

 

i did this to myself in agreeing to the two months, offering to move in, and other changes that i placed on the table during the break up. while i kept space and didint call. the message was clear. i will do what i have to get you back. hence her "lets date" comment and "the cards are stacked against you becuase i see you as a friend".

 

remember this whole thing could be just her hanging onto me becuase she wants that emotional buffer.

 

but without respect, and with her confidence so high passion cannot bloom, without some sense of the loss of me she will not feel that internal pull. she seems so resolved to letting this dribble away.

 

when i left i just said, sleep well and didnt even look for a hug, she came over and gave me a weak one. i smiled. but this thing is all wrong now and based on a faulty platform.

 

i have a plan that works with when she doesnt have her son. a week from now. when he is there she is emotionally fulffiled, when he is not she calls. my plan is to be "available" during this next week and then hit her with distance, and doubts about this going into her week without.

 

but her confidence must be shaken for anything to happen. i think. as a friend said, if i do it too soon i lose, if i do it too late i lose. about now feels right. she is not going to get much more softened up, i actually feel taht when she feels the time is right she will say "friends" and begin dating others.

 

three months is too long not to make her miss me, too much time and she will slide right by those feelings, becuase i have been there. SUGGESTIONS?

[GeeCee]

Rich,

 

You have to do what I find soooooo difficult. You have to withdraw. You are too readily available for her. Damnit Rich, I find it impossible to do. But I know that it is the right thing, and so do you.

 

The problem is, they know we want to see them, even tho we don't act all needy and are not crying, begging or pleading. The fact is that we want to see them more than they want to see us. And that places them very firmly in the driving seat.

 

Good luck Rich, I could'nt do it. I hope that you can. Because otherwise this is going to eat at you. And you don't seem to move further forward. I think that you have primed yourself and are ready to take the plunge.

 

G xx

[Beec]

Rich,

 

Only you can make the call. We cannot see her or what is going on with her. You are there. You need to make the call on when you withdraw. However, when you do move away, think about what you are going to say, how you will play it.

 

What will bother her the most, without killing it off? Personally, I indifference and would tell you to be the first one with an outside date.

 

And pour it on this weekend, be as upbeat and friendly as you can. Pump her up as high as you can before you move out.

 

Let you know if I think of more.

 

Beec

[rich_1517]

well guys,

 

im finding that i am so much more dangerous with other women. i think thats what i should tell her. that you dont see me as dangerous. you take me for granted, and you know nothing will ever happen as long as thats true. you have lost interest, theres no challenge.

 

its sad. i could show up but the grounds are just wrong. i have to do it and i have to stick by it. becuase she will agree to whatever i say and let me live with it. i think....

 

but these are the options i think i see

 

1. the "i have tried to show unconditionally, i am finding that just leaves me taken for granted. i have conditions, and if we cant meet on them its ok."

 

2. just dont call, and leave her wondering

 

3. walk away completely no calls

 

4. i want to keep the memories i have of you what we are doing lets me watch what has mattered to me disspear slowly. i dont want that. i want someone who wants me the way i want them. i have to let go.

 

5. hang in there, just be more confident and less available and show up here and there (had to put that option in)

 

fact is unconditional love has to have value or you get no respect for it. so i have to add value by either removing me, or the unconditional part. or start exerting my indepence in way that will attract her.

 

if we look at the dynamic now, i cant show up very well in her eyes. i have very little impact. sad but true, she misses me, she wants me happy, but i want her pasison not her sympathy. there is still time, but it needs to be now or soon.

 

suggestions wanted

[GeeCee]

This is the problem Rich, we are all so much more dangerous, exciting, thrilling to other men/women, than our exes and they cannot see that. I don't think telling her will help. She has to see it.

 

I think that I had said before, your ex is in a stable and secure position. She does not feel threatened. This is very difficult, because in order to win her back you had to make her feel secure, but now she is becoming too secure, and needs to be shaken up.

 

This is why I suggested that you now need to retreat, make yourself a little less available. Do not distance yourself from her, but try and turn the situation around to ensure that she makes more of the running. I think that the only way to do this is not call and make so many plans. You found last week that when you didn't call, she was on the phone. Try again. Withdraw a little and then go back. Remember the push/pull technique. Good luck.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

you are both right.

 

its time but timming. do the unpredictable. i havent called her in a week so today i will call. tonight is her sons play and i said i would come, i have to throw something in the mix though, either change it to come tomorrow when her mom is there, or scold for something she said the other night. something that says "not door mat"

 

i have to think through the mom thing, this will make her feel very awkard. she did not tell her mom i was there before the two months were up basically hiding it to not be judged. it would rattle her cage some and i dont know if in a good way.

 

the cancelling of going is a big one, this is her sons first play. i have to show. the way she said it was. "my dad is coming friday, you saturday, my mom sunday' ill have one of you each night. i wont read into that but something about it was right.

 

the game plan is on for this week, maybe do something mid week, but she will have to call for it. so during the week, a couple calls by me, nothing pushy just "hi" then withdraw. break the assumption. by targeting wednesday i am setting the stage for trepidation going into the weekend, i want her not planning other things so i have to leave the assumption that i will ask for a date there. i feel kind of bad, a heart to heart will have to happen at some point.

[GeeCee]

Yes yes yes Rich, a heart to heart will have to happen at some point. But this is not the point. She is feeling secure with you. Knows that you will be around. Slots you in between her dad and mum to watch her son's play. I am a mother - I know exactly how significant this is. Extremely.

 

So, you go to the play - laugh in the right places, cheer in the right places, and then lift the kid onto your shoulders (he's not 16, right!!!), and tell him he is the man!!

 

Take everyone for milkshakes adn then go home. She will be full of pride for the son, and you will be part of that family unit. Perfect.

 

And then you make your move and retreat!

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

well i seem to be on track. i called to say hi and need directions to play. she said can we do dinner too?

 

her phone had been on silent so i said i was deeply hurt (j/k) and she said one wrist or two? meaning slicing, i said i can only handle a paper cut on the pinky worth of paint today.

 

when i asked about the show, i said good that his is first becuase i have plans after. she dead panned on that no read on it.

 

so she is behaving like normal, but..... long range plan. back together is the only thing i want, so push pull is the plan.

 

i just need to fine tune it to meet my situation. i have to turn the friends thing to more, so thats pushing respect, fun and friendship to passion. i wish there was a sure fire way to that besides a dead on kiss.

 

my best tactic is back rubs. AHA! find something that works us physically and then offer a back rub.

 

but the other part first, no calls, then wait for her call and idea for a date. but again something in here needs to say "respect me" and whether thats competition or something else i dont know.

 

IDEAS!

[Beec]

rich,

 

In the last few weeks, you have made an entire 180. Now you've got game.

[rich_1517]

you have helped me a lot with that Beec. my hat is off to you.

 

i just ignored a phone call from her, knowing it was just confirmation of the meet. i hate the game but it is necessary. plus i put a new outgoing message on my phone. i dont know why that rings peoples bells (exes) but it does. i guess its change from familiar.

 

ok well now to do my pre game show. work out, get outside, play some golf. and for gods sakes smile!

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

You know EXACTLY what to do, and EXACTLY how to do it!!!

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

so went to meet her and her son for dinner before his play. went very well. hey the whole thing did. from previous excursions i have learned to check in with myself after a few hours to make sure im not getting bummed or angry or or or... and i did excellent.

 

the kids play was a blast. we all had alot of fun. there is still no physical contact. i did a few things different though. during dinner she was a b##tch to the service people and i scolded for it, she got upset and i apologised. but it was important to show her i am willing to incur her displeasure to say what i feel is right.

 

so i am much more confident and contained emotionally. at the same time i am focused and more engaging, and i listen. now its her that wont hold eye contact for too long or is crossing her legs and fidgeting. anyone want to tell me what thats about?

 

 

but the neutered nature, non romance, non sexual aspects are bugging me still. is she just trying to keep a friend. or does she want to find her feelings? the friends route is frought with emotional disappointments.

 

i have to not let fear get to me. to be honest i dont think i can turn her, that doesnt mean i wont try. but i think she would be able to handle me seeing others, and moving on. she has seen enough to have me as a friend in her life and that may be really bad.

 

so this comes to next steps, and how hard to play them. my gut says let her start coming my way more. touch base randomly, be unavailable in others but make her ask for next date. anyone know how to send a lite signal of your losing me? besides not calling that is, already have that one down.

 

it may require a long distancing, this cannot go as is or it will become normal and safe for her. by long distancing i mean be busy, way busy. she calls for a date, i say i would love to what day? shoot that wont work how about?.... etc. stretch it out dont call. show active disinterest. then pop back in.

 

we have been on a pretty close timeline. since she came back we do connect at least twice a week in person if not more. i need to put in an entire week of zero connection.

 

i have to quit smoking, there is no avoiding that one. to come over her own boundary that must happen. even if passion comes back. the thing is her passion was missing before this anyway. can i show her? i dont know.

 

the one weird thing about tonight is when i left, she said thanks for coming, kind of flat a hug and peck on the cheek. not it was "great you could come" just "thanks for coming". i think i was a present to her kid, ya know? but the smoking is big. i cant escape that and the clock is ticking on it. the only way for her to look past my age is to see me living longer.

 

i feel one more visit with her and her son this week, perhaps to work on the comic he and i were doing, i dropped if off today when i saw them and said why dont you hang onto this? it was a very subtle message you could read two ways. im putting distance in. or find an excuse to invite me up. but im definitely into mixed signals. the bond is getting stronger and i feel that tolerating one more "non date - date" would be ok.

 

Thoughts?

 

ill post more this is long enough. but man what a turn around on me ive done. if her heart is to be had i am very confident im the one to do it. this feels great.

[Beec]

Rich,

 

I don't know how much more I can comment on what you are doing. It sounds just fine to me. I think her flat hug and such may be either an issue of her being confused or her feeling like she does not yet want to just kiss you.

 

If I had one manuver, I would go for the move and give her a decent kiss on the cheek when you next left, pull back a good (full one second) look in the eyes and leave. An idea to send a message that you are willing to kiss her, but she needs to come for it.

 

How long and how far to withdraw is tough to say. I just pulled off a big withdrawal last night and she called me less than 12 hours later to tell me she loved me. How long did I screw around and screw up my relationships by being needy first and then trying to give them stuff, had it all backwards. I set her up for the fight I wanted to have. I delviered emotional fulfillment for a while, then pulled the rug out from under her. When she called me this a.m. she sounded like she had not slept all night. Much better than having a blow-up and yelling match coming from your insecurity. I was pretty secure beginning it because I knew I was getting the I lvoe you looks earlier that night. It really works.

[rich_1517]

Hey Beec

i think you have done well. so your advice carries the weight of experience.

 

the time is now. i reliased after last night im sucking vaccuum and that this is becoming too platonic.

 

one track says continue to woo her, seduce her play the game a little longer

 

track two says walk away enough to make her wonder, then pop in after she makes a move

 

track three says dump her nicely, and hand her the walking papers. make the loss very clear.

 

last night was good but hard. i left out that her ex husband was there, he is always moody but she was worried about him. he has been so so to me in the past but last night he was ice cold. i said hi to him and he just snubbed me, i was cool and confident about it.

 

she had wanted to go outside becuase she was doing concession. i was kind of afraid she wanted to talk to him, she has said she never wants him back, too judgemental, too moody, too selfish. today i am sitting in damn i wonder if she is using me to get to him?

 

that would explain all the distance. but then that could also be my mind messing with me. as usual. they hooked up after the divorce and had great sex she says. but he is going to be with the new love of his life in peru soon, to try and bring her back.

 

but soemthing stinks. i just cant figure out what is up with her. but i feel like spatz, can i ask if there is someone else? not really.

[Beec]

Well, I go with No. 1 or 2, and it is all a question of timing. 3 is too drastic until you really have her going, I think.

[rich_1517]

damn today is hard. she is so flat emotionally, i called tonight just to say i had a good time. she was happy i came, etc.

 

but she is so flat, there is no read here. i have to do something and im not sure. i dont think the dating will do it. she doesnt see the value.

 

there are two emails i want to send one is

 

"i am unsure what to do next, you had said that you want more passion in your life, what do you think that looks like? i am willing to try new things to help that happen, i do need you to start communicatin with me if you can. to trust me again as you did and tell what you want. if we cant get there i understand."

 

the other

 

"if we continue with this neutered friendship you will lose me becuase i will resent it and you will take me for granted, which i already feel to some degree.

 

to continue i need you to take some steps in my direction, some indication that you want more from me, that you are willing to try. we have a lot to offer each other, but if you dont see the value in that i have to let go.

 

i will miss you and i will miss forrest. this is very hard but i believe we will be ok in the end. i dont have any regrets. i cant pursue someone who doesnt want to caught

[Beec]

rich, i think you should just withdraw. no emails, no nothing. let her come to you. see what happens.

[rich_1517]

uh oh. you seeing what i may be feeling? she aint into to it? or do you think this is the best plan?

 

oh man this is tough, i knew it would be. i am lost again. i have stopped living again. i am depressed AGAIN.

 

and why? becuase i have let myself have some hope. i do want to write something. we havent said a words about anything besides banter in a very long time, even when she came back we kept it to half and hour.

 

damn, damn, damn. just like no contact, and love tactics, cant say anythning about feelings. someone help me to understand why i just walk away?

 

and if she follows is it time to push the "i want more button?" or the "im not sure about this" button. i am unsure what to do.

 

give me strength not to call her and ask what she thinks she is doing.

[Beec]

Yes, your feelings, while there, and they will be shown, need to be shown in different ways then you asking needily.

 

If you withdraw saying something, you draw a line in the sand and are ready to play cards that once played you need to stick to. If you ssay no more, you need to mean it, and take the risks that come with it.

 

If you keep trying to give her emotional fulfillment, then she may take you for granted. Not good.

 

If you withdraw, then you let her know not to take you for granted, and still have options to work with. If and when she asks why haven't you called, then you can let her know that sometimes you need the message that you want me to call. "Hey, if you want me to call you, sometimes you gotta let me know."

 

OK, now I think she has given you some good signs recently. You knew about and were asked to the play. If she did not want you at all you would not be asked. Things have bene going ok. Maybe she wants you there and it is just time to let her know not to take you for granted. This can be done by just withdrawing.

 

Maybe, she is jsut confused. Maybe she thought, "Rich was only friend worthy, but now maybe more, what do I do, I need to make sure."

 

Try to relax and play the game. Big gestures, like what I did, I think are best left forwhen you know they love you.

[rich_1517]

fair enough, just a bad day i think.

 

i can really pick them. she will call. its what i say when she does. i think i have to screen a couple and then take a day to get back.

 

damn, i cant see this one yet. its in there, i need my confidence solid again. becuase she doesnt hand out clues im stuck.

 

i have to think about what respect would look like to her, how much to withdraw and my response to her when she does call.

 

she may even say a date? but im getting tired of neuter dates. i need to see some movement to stay in the game. or do i? guess its time to focus on me again, get grounded, dont sulk, smile, work out etc.

 

she must blink first right? damn.

[Beec]

hhhm how about a date where you get some physical contact. not salsa dancing, too fast, but something slower, were you can find an excuse to be next to her and invade her physical space.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

you are having a bad day. You cannot see the wood for the trees. You are thinking about your own desires and showing signs of neediness. This is all good on this forum, BUT YOU CANNOT DO THAT WITH THE EX.

 

I suspect that she is confused Rich, I don't know. Maybe she is thinking that the two of you are just friends, I don't know. But if she has not make that call yet, don't give her fuel for the fire. You have done everything that she has asked for. Now I think that you just need a little more patience. She has got to make a move soon. And you will be ready for it. If she does not - you will be in a position to make a move soon, because of all the hard work that you have done, laying these solid foundations. Remember what your end goal is. Keep that in mind.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

thanks guys

keep it coming you are stoking my resolve. i realised something. i stopped working out and doing the things i had been for the last week. i got complacent.

 

thinking about that Beec. i will give that a sidebar in my head to work on. something that requires contact but not dancing.

 

fact is while things are in limbo, they are still effectively over. so i have to act as such, seek emotional fulfillment elsewhere. dump my sadness and anger elsewhere.

 

I dont know if i can quit smoking right now. it may be the hitch for her, but its adding alot of stress to stress. she and i would have to talk about that ot i would have to be a lot more grounded.

 

yeah im frustrated and angry but its funny this game allows you to see more clearly, by showing up without conditions i have gotten stronger for it and in some way put in distance for myself.

 

it feels like things are further apart then they were, if thats possible. but yeah time to withdraw. next weekend though should we connect something must be said, on some level else i am saying sure use me.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

Your mind is coping with too many things at the same time. You are fulfilling her emotional needs, having to be upbeat and optimistic all the time, willing things to happen. I know that one of her 'conditions' is that you stop smoking, but hold on a minute. You cannot do everything alone. Give yourself a target date to aim for re the stopping smoking and them stop thinking about it.

 

No rash decisions this week that will blow your game to shreds. You are feeling down. As for where you get your emotional fulfillment from: here of course. Feel free to dump here. That is what we are here for.

 

You know that this will pass.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

ok fair enough no rash decisions. i will pick a target date.

 

i will not make any assumptions right now either

 

but i am at my limit on this. i am prepared to let the wheels come off. she has been so removed and well cavalier with my feelings since the beginning that hell i would lose respect for me.

 

the point is she is taking this as a bonus prize to leaving. i dont see real doubt in her. i see someone who wants what she wants. so she gets nothing but polite right now, if she calls.

 

it will take real reserve on my part to not say "i dont think so" to a date, or just a "listen i have to go, thanks for calling" every time.

no feelings, no asking, no nothing.

 

I am angry