What is marriage if it can end?

[Lights]

I think that although the importance and meaning of marriage has changed over time, it hasn't become LESS. It has just become different.

 

A long time ago, divorce was so frowned upon that marriage really did mean forever. It meant suffering through unhappiness if that person changes someday into someone you fall out of love with... It meant standing by your vow for the rest of your life. Everyone said the same vows at their weddings.

 

Now, I really think marriage is a more creative, unique, and beautiful thing. You can write or choose your own vows, and make promises and commitments that are appropriate to you and your relationship. I don't think divorce being available makes marriage less meaningful, because face it, people DO change, relationships change. Sometimes the changes are too big for people to work through. I think divorce being available gives you the chance to love someone new, and to not spend your life being miserable. Which in itself makes it a beautiful thing.

 

It's like a job, no one gets a great job with the intention of quitting. But sometimes the circumstances change and it's not avoidable.

 

What if a woman was with a man who badly emotionally abused her? She made vows and intended to stick with them forever, but the situation and the relationship changed. Should she have to stay with him living in hell forever? Or should she be entitled to divorce him and find someone who will love her and honor the vows that they can make together?

 

Just my standpoint, sorry for the long post.

[Botched]

"Marriage should be a commitment I am willing to retake each and every single day for the rest of our lives."

 

Penelope 13

 

This post is loaded with great points.

 

My wife and I actually read through the entire thread last night and this is the single line that probably means the most to me individually.

 

My wife wrote something to this point once, and I really didn't get it. I was taking her and our relationship for granted. It cost me. But we are here now, and I have taken back my roll and place in this marriage. I will not throw it away again.

 

Not retaking my roll everyday did cost me. It spent confidence and comfort. It compromised her needs and her reliance on me to try to meet those needs. I put her in a position of being unwanted, as it must have seemed to her, by not retaking my roll and recommiting everyday.

 

I damaged our marriage, because I put down the commitment and allowed her to linger. I have a clear notion of what I am commited to now. I am commited to my wife and her needs. And yes, her needs. I would not wish to be without those needs. I love her needs. I aspire to meet her needs...that satisfies me. That gives me pleasure, much more than I ever knew.

[Mutley]

Be thankful you had a second chance.

 

Once I woke up to the realities of what was going on it was too late.

 

que sera sera

[Botched]

Be thankful you had a second chance.

 

Once I woke up to the realities of what was going on it was too late.

 

que sera sera

 

I am...

 

Not to assume too much I hope, but what could you have done? She was drawn elsewhere...I see little recourse. Ofcourse, if you were in the state I was in you will always feel that you allowed her to go I guess.

 

I think you will make use of your pain.

 

Live and learn, and punch people who say live and learn in the mouth!

[Mutley]

I am...

 

Not to assume too much I hope, but what could you have done? She was drawn elsewhere...I see little recourse. Ofcourse, if you were in the state I was in you will always feel that you allowed her to go I guess.

 

I think you will make use of your pain.

 

Live and learn, and punch people who say live and learn in the mouth!

 

Thanks.

 

I guess, overall, there was nothing I could of done to prevent it. Maybe postpone it....but she would have gone eventually.

 

I'm mad at myself for letting things to, what you call, "linger" for 1.5 years. I didn't stay on top of things.

[Botched]

Thanks.

 

I guess, overall, there was nothing I could of done to prevent it. Maybe postpone it....but she would have gone eventually.

 

I'm mad at myself for letting things to, what you call, "linger" for 1.5 years. I didn't stay on top of things.

 

I am too. Very. It is hard to forgive such a thing of yourself. But, you did not create the problem. Little comfort I know.

 

What do you think you were avoiding? Do you feel like you would do the same thing again?

 

I think that because my relationship is moving forward I can attack my issues. Your being alone, I assume, or unable to rectify with your ex-wife must make it particularly hard to get past. I know this, sitting around punishing and hating yourself for it is doing it all over agian.

 

Be good to yourself.

[ErikT]

When I read Penelope's post, I said to myself, "Self, she put it perfectly." However, it wasn't until I read this post from Botched did I finally understand the real purpose of this thread.

 

Making the commitment and following up on that commitment are two different steps. I, too, feel that I have taken my wife for granted. I still love her, worship her, and thought I was a good husband. But how can I be a good husband if I have taken her for granted.

 

Every so often, one of us will, out of the blue, ask the other to "Marry me again?" Until tonight, I never really understood the significance of that question.

 

Thanks Botched. Great thread.

[bee otch]

I think that although the importance and meaning of marriage has changed over time, it hasn't become LESS. It has just become different.

 

A long time ago, divorce was so frowned upon that marriage really did mean forever.

 

Now, I really think marriage is a more creative, unique, and beautiful thing.

 

 

I agree w/ Sunshine Girl on this point. Now that we can get out of marriage with fewer social and financial consequences than in the past, it must become greater than an obligation.

 

I went to a class tonight with my husband about the book "The 5 Love Languages". I'm learning more about what I need, what he needs, and together we will learn how to make sure those needs are met.

 

Life is a journey. Whether that life is spent alone or closely tied to another, that journey will have its ups and downs. I much prefer to hold his hand through it all.

 

My husband and I keep learning about ourselves as individuals, learning about eachother, and learning about how we work as a couple. Since we've overcome huge and horrible obstacles, then chosen to try to "make it work", the aftermath is nothing short of miraculous.

 

The continual discovery involved in the attempt to live life to the fullest is amazing when shared with someone who really wants to help you get that full life and whose character and love makes you want to give them the same.

 

Being loved by and married to "Botched" is the great adventure of my life.

[Botched]

Being loved by and married to "Botched" is the great adventure of my life.

 

 

 

Yep, this is my wife!

 

This has been a great site and this thread has been a great example of what it has meant to me.

 

Erik T, that was terrific to read. It is too easy to assume too much and take it all for granted...I know. But, it is pretty great to wake up and have time to pull it togther.

 

In any case, being present and doing your best to make life great is what it is all about. Knowing what you want and how to keep it and nurture it is a start.

[Botched]

Making the commitment and following up on that commitment are two different steps.

 

 

Yea...this is it. You put it in it's simplest form. This is what I needed to figure out. Your comments on how this effected you really moved me ErikT. Thanks for that and thanks for all the great thoughts.

 

Wow...thanks to all. I gained form this.

[john4321]

bothed i believe marraige should not end, it is forever. bad things happen and many mistakes are made, but people must learn to forgive, listen to there partner, be willing to work on themsleves, and work woth one another. it is a long journey and i believe can survive anything if people are willing to work. the one thing that bothers me with this site is so many just say throw it away, but to me you cannot. if you were at one time joined together and happy, and things went wrong, people need to find there way home, to where they were. that takes work and most people just find it easier to throw it away. that is sad. it is the world we live in now

[WhatThe]

It is obvious that most people on this board are very young.

 

Marriage is simply a way to to get our very broken legal system involved in the one part of your life you do NOT want government involvement.

 

Have a ceremony, make your vows, but do NOT get a marriage license. Especially if you are a man. All that piece of paper does is allow the courts to sentence you to the indentured servitude of alimony when the love of your life decides to shack with someone else.

[journeynow]

bothed i believe marraige should not end, it is forever. bad things happen and many mistakes are made, but people must learn to forgive, listen to there partner, be willing to work on themsleves, and work woth one another. it is a long journey and i believe can survive anything if people are willing to work. the one thing that bothers me with this site is so many just say throw it away, but to me you cannot. if you were at one time joined together and happy, and things went wrong, people need to find there way home, to where they were. that takes work and most people just find it easier to throw it away. that is sad. it is the world we live in now

 

I feel the same as john4321. I truly believe that it does not need to be thrown away when times get tough. It does take two, though, sometimes you are closer than others, sometimes one has to take up the slack, but if you have chosen to marry you've promised that you could be counted on to be a part of that relationship.

 

I seem to be in the minority, though. And my husband has changed his mind...so the minority is even smaller than I thought.

[Circe]

Marriage is a promise and a challenge to ouselves. We give our word on what is perhaps the most difficult charge/challenge that will ever be presented to us. Share our lives and ourselves with one person for the rest of our joint lives.

 

It's simply our word. In a no-fault state, it's little more than our word. Do we keep our word? Despite the difficulties?

 

I don't know about you, but for me, it's something to live for. I never thought I'd ever say that. I used to be firmly on the "marriage is pointless" side of the debate.

 

One day, it just occurred to me that marriage presented a challenge which was the ultimate test of faith (in a non-religious sense) and character. It also occurred to me, having seen my grandparents relationship (they were married 50 years before my grandfather died) that if you could achieve something like that - you would have created a bond - a force on Earth - stronger than anything else. Somehow, stronger than life and death.. at least in any immediate sense.

 

I think marriage - the shell we put around the commitment of dedicating our lives to one other, forever, in return for the same - is something out of this world, because of the transendent bond it creates. And that's something worth achieving.

[pianoguy]

^^^

 

Personally, I don't understand the idea that the commitment is what makes a long relationship wonderful. Sure, there's people that have been together 50+ years and are happy, but there's also people who've been together that long and hate each other.

 

As for this "bond" you speak of, I've also seen people (mostly gay and lesbian couples for whom it was illegal) who've been together their whole lives and have this bond without marriage, so it would seem that marriage doesn't actually provide the bond.

 

I'm not anti-marriage per se, but I don't think it makes marriage meaningless when divorce is an option on the table.

[Circe]

^^^

 

Personally, I don't understand the idea that the commitment is what makes a long relationship wonderful. Sure, there's people that have been together 50+ years and are happy, but there's also people who've been together that long and hate each other.

 

As for this "bond" you speak of, I've also seen people (mostly gay and lesbian couples for whom it was illegal) who've been together their whole lives and have this bond without marriage, so it would seem that marriage doesn't actually provide the bond.

 

I'm not anti-marriage per se, but I don't think it makes marriage meaningless when divorce is an option on the table.

 

I said marriage is just the shell that contains the bond - because like you, I don't think of "marriage" as the piece of paper.

 

To me - if people take those vows, they are married. I have gay friends who consider themselves married because they had a commitment ceremony. I consider them married too.

 

To me it's all about intentions, promises, commitments because those things represent a great challenge in life and to me say something about your character. It's a difficult thing to do - make a promise/commitment like that and then actually honour it for the rest of your life.

 

For me - that in itself is a massively worthwhile challenge that I'm happy and very eager to set for myself and hopefully achieve.

 

If it doesnt happen because of forces external to me (ie being subject to abuse etc) then it doesn't happen and that's fine.. that's life.

 

But if it does happen. A good marriage built over 50 years - I'd consider that..I can't even tell you the kind of value I'd place on that. Based on both the feelings and experiences shared and very much also - the length of time involved (because time creates new challenges to surmount).

 

So if you can't achieve it thats fine.. but if you can achieve it you have something priceless in your hands there. So why wouldnt you try?

 

That's why I understand why people try. Why people continue to get married and say those vows and make those promises despite the ability to disengage and walk away.

[sharsachan]

.....It also occurred to me, having seen my grandparents relationship (they were married 50 years before my grandfather died).....

 

.....^^^As for this "bond" you speak of, I've also seen people (mostly gay and lesbian couples for whom it was illegal) who've been together their whole lives and have this bond without marriage, so it would seem that marriage doesn't actually provide the bond.....

 

My grandparents were married for close to 50 years before my grandmother died in '82. A few years later my grandfather found another woman to love, but in the 20 years they have been together, they have never gotten married. I do not doubt for an instant that they share a bond though. They love each other very much and I know one will be completely heart broken when the other passes on.

 

However, whether it's a legal ceremony or just a private ceremony, if you make and say vows, they should mean something. They should alwase mean something. People do change, and it's unfortunate that people have a hard time working through this. Experiences, jobs, people, economy, everything has an effect on a person. If you choose to embark on that journey of commitment, you should follow it through until the end. You should know that you promised "forever" or "death do us part" or whatever phrasing you used.

[LAYAAN]

This is a good discussion.

The more I read this thread, the more I wonder what exactly marriage will offer me? Why am I running after marriage?

It also reminds me what my mom says "You date a guy or you don't date a guy, marriage is a gamble. Its like going to watch a movie based on watching its trailer. You may not like the movie even if you liked the trailer. What do you do then? Always remember that divorce IS an option. Depending on how much you have invested, the ranking of divorce as an option may differ, but if you feel that you are going insane trying to keep things together, leave. There are no right or wrong answers. Every situation is different. Personalities are different. Just understand that marriage is a lot of responsibility, a lot of forgiving, a lot of efforts, and if the other partner is equally committed then it would provide only a moderate security."

It makes me really wonder why am I wanting to get married because I am not interested in having kids. Indian marriages are like committing suicide for women because of responsibility involved - 1) you have to earn 2) you have to look good 3) you have to put your husband first 4) you have to raise your kids well 5) you have to put your husband's family first.

In return your husband is supposed to protect you, honor you, love you, support you. I don't see this happening at all. In fact most Indian men are very arrogant. They take all the work and efforts of women granted. The society puts so much emphasis on staying married that these men use it against you and say "hey, whatever I do, she will still want to stay married because she doesn't want to be called a divorcee." If I get divorced, I'll still find another woman to marry.

You give, give, give, you compromise, adjust, until you can't identify yourself. You wonder why you started this. No wonder women kill themselves. I don't justify but I can understand. What's the point? Where is love and caring? Everything is just a farce.

[Botched]

tinu,

 

I hope things have worked out for you over the past year. I am glad that you had the moment to question your own assumptions and motives. Sometimes that can be very helpful.

[pl3asehelp]

It's whatever the 2 married people make of it. If one or both of them are weak and bail out of it easily, cheat, etc. well it makes it look bad, but it doesn't mean that marriage is bad, just that man people are just idiots.