Guilt

[John Bendix]

On a new thread to possibly discuss the role of guilt in the breaksown and dissolution of realtionships.

 

Does the guilt of the one partner that wants out of the relationship contribute and keep distributing to the downfall? Once that partner decides that they want out, which can happen way before the other is aware of their plans, is it their guilt that forbids any meaningful communication to occur?

 

It seems to contribute to maintenance of the emotional wall that is created and even possibly in its erection. The guilt may come from their inability to rationally deal with this emotional decision on their part. They may feel guilt because of their attempt to dissolve the marriage and the family.

 

Does the guilt they are feeling contribute to the anger and hostility they feel and demonstrate towards their partner? This may explain the constant need to blame the other partner for seemingly unwarranted or exaggerated reasons. Could it be the more guilt they feel, the more anger they express?

 

The guilt that they feel may contribute to and/or reinforce the pain that they carry around inside.

 

Any thoughts?

 

John

[John Bendix]

On the other side of the coin, the one that is left behind may also experience guilt.

 

The guilt that may stem from their inability as a partner in the marriage to hold it together. A guilt for being inadequate to their spouse and their needs. The guilt could come from whatever transgressions that they have commited in the relationship. The blame put upon them by the other partner may be percieved to be warranteed and thus the feelings of guilt. Sometimes to disproportionate levels.

 

There is the guilt that they may feel for having to put their children through these life altering circumstances and feeling powerless to do anything about it.

 

I know I took on enough guilt inside of me to the point of health threatening proportions. The guilt may be one ofthe main causes of the suffering that we all have gone through.

[melrich]

Once that partner decides that they want out, which can happen way before the other is aware of their plans, is it their guilt that forbids any meaningful communication to occur?

 

Whilst I think guilt can play a part in some cases, I think it is more just the emotional shutdown taht occurs when one person has decided they want out. The spell is broken.

[Safer]

I know for me, I felt guilty for not being forgiving enough (according to my church fellowship). Hindsight being 20/20, I realize that my husband laid many guilt trips on me & it was an emotion I lived with daily. Now I'm free of that & free of the guilt too. Instead, I forgave myself. I did however feel guilty whilst making secret plans for my safe exit.

[glimmerofhope]

I think guilt not only contributes to the end of marriages and relationships--for the reasons you outlined above, John--but further plays a major role in inhibiting reconciliation.

 

The walkaway/dumper is so consumed by guilt over what they inherently know was irrational and destructive behavior that they develop these impenetrable emotional walls. The walls, in turn, "protect" the actor from dealing with the reality of what they have done, forbidding rational discussion about what happened and consequently eliminating any chance of a peaceful resolution.

[John Bendix]

Glimmer,

 

I agree with you insight.

 

So, the guilt also hinders their chances of seeing their actions and reactions from other than a highly emotionally (and dysfunctional) viewpoint, which is what guilt is intrinsically?

[glimmerofhope]

Glimmer,

 

I agree with you insight.

 

So, the guilt also hinders their chances of seeing their actions and reactions from other than a highly emotionally (and dysfunctional) viewpoint, which is what guilt is intrinsically?

 

Yes. Most of what we deal with in these situations is, I believe, the unfortunate result of an epic battle being waged within the mind of the walkaway, where the rational self tries to reconcile its logical motivations with the wayward and whimsical fancies of the ever-irksome ego. The hostility, abandonment, resentment or whatever other nastiness that comes our way is, then, merely the nuclear fallout from this catastrophic process.

[just M.E.]

For my ex, guilt manifested itself in anger directed at me. I eventually learned that when he had the most irrational anger at me, he had done or wanted to do something that he was extremely guilty about. Since his moral value system rationalized pretty much most bad behaviors, when this anger came out he was either planning to or had crossed a moral line.

 

It took on the childish response of "Look at what you made me do"

 

I also believe that by looking at me, he saw how He had behaved badly. Without saying a word, I was a reminder of his bad behavior. So as glimmer pointed our, the walls go up to prevent them from having to acknowledge what they have done and the guilt of that behavior.

[benga]

John - Another very interesting thread...

 

I will try relating my experience..

 

When I was told "I don't think I love you", I was told a whole lot of things that made me feel like - literally the scum of the earth. I was put on such a guilt trip, that it took me nearly 10 months to realize that I was the recipient of that garbage, because my X didn't want to deal with the guilt she was experiencing by wanting to walk out. Passing the guilt is another dynamic.

 

It was easy for her to do this, because outwardly she wasn't displaying any guilt. Because overnight she was a different person, it became very easy for me to accept (at that point of time) everything she said, which made me feel hugely guilty and naturally eased the guilt off her, because I accepted what she said.

 

I would agree, that its the emotional walls that they have so effectively built, with a ample guilt manifesting within. Its because the walls are so thick, that the guilt doesn't seems outwardly.

 

They want no responsibility right now, and that includes not wanting to be "wrong" at all and the responsibility of the guilt that they carry.They don't want to hurt, to suffer, to grieve. So naturally, they gravitates towards those who "side" with them. In every single break up, things degenerate on some level to taking "sides". She has her story, you have yours, she has her supporters, you have yours. Also, there is always some level of exaggeration in the story, due to grief, imperfect memory, flustered feelings, and again, wanting to be "right", wanting the sympathy of the victim... More the reinforecement of being right from the support group, the thicker the emotional walls become.

 

Would you agree?

[scornandtorn]

I think the guilt has to be restructured, by the walkaway, into a more manageable feeling, such as anger or resentment. Anger is easier, to manipulate in the mind, than guilt.

 

It is much simpler to say "my shameless behavior is a direct result of what my spouse has done." However to resolve a feeling such as guilt, one would first have to admit fault, "I am sorry for how I have behaved."

 

There lies the problem.

[just M.E.]

scorn -

 

Exactly and since sorry was a word not available in his vocabulary

 

and he was blameless, there was no where to place those feelings that should be guilt

[surfjon]

Interesting John,

 

I hold extreme regret and guilt for how I contributed to our downfall, I go to therapy to try to get a hold on that but it's not working well.

 

As someone else said, I feel she probably had/has significant guilt for what she's done, but has built walls that shield her from feeling the guilt. She has convinced herself what she's done is right, that subdues the guilty feelings for her.

[John Bendix]

I think all who have posted replies to thread have shown some incredible insight that we all can learn from.

 

The power of blame and complain duo is a tremedious egoic dysfunction to first recognize and then attempt to overcome. It seems the walkaways have used the blame and complain rationalization for so long in their life, they have incorporated it into their persona. It does not seem to them to be an irrational way of dealing the outside world. It seems natural. Of course when this gets carried away, it instigates other emotions such anger, hostility, withdrawal, and so on.

 

These seem to be acceptable by the walkaway's ego but not so for some emotions such as guilt. Guilt, remorse, etc., seem to carry with it connotations of responsibility. In their often used defense mechanisms of blame and complain, accountability for their actions and reactions never seem to enter the picture. The duo of blame and complain are almost "hard-wired" into their responses as a defense mode.

 

Scorn,

 

Interesting point. Maybe the guilt is turned into pain (as so many unresolved emotions are) and then the pain manifests itself as anger, etc.

 

Glimmer,

 

There is an epic battle going on in their mind. And thus the emotional distress caused by this duality. I swear that my X never believed she was lying when she was re-writing history (in self interest). Part of her actually believes these falsehoods to be true. to be true. Almost a dual personality problem. Maybe explains of the reverting to the actions of a 17 year old. Of course, thisis much more the pity.

 

Benga,

 

the wall is there to protect themselves against the pain inside and part ofthat pain has been created and continues to be maintained by guilt.

 

Support groups do play a role in their dysfunction even if they are well meaning.

 

M.E.,

 

"It took on the childish response of "Look at what you made me do"

 

An excellant example.

 

 

Surfjon,

 

I have experienced guilt for not being able to help my X and my sons with their stuggles through this. I have to being willing to accept these emotions for what they are, my reactions that are fleeting and temporary. Then take steps to stop creating these thoughts over and over again and thus the reactivity of guilt subsides. Be willing to stop the cycle.

[smallguy]

I'm not sure about my walkaways guilt- she seemed to think that it would be worse for us and our children if she stayed 'unhappily' married (which later transpired to happy- but not happy enough). She had largely played the role of martyr in our relationship, and it has only been through therapy that I have seen how destructive it is to live with someone who takes the world on their shoulders- of course blaming myself for that. She doesn't seem to be guilty because she has totally justified to herself, what she has done, and in her new relationship which was without doubt either a queue or an EM affair, she is idealizing to the point of planning a new life with him in a relationship that is just over a month old. It is difficult, because she is normally so rational, and careful, cautious and precise, she is incredibly intelligent and independent- and has fallen for the intellect of the new guy- so now I am beginning to think that she has just outgrown me (she is 8 yrs younger) 10, younger than the new guy. She definitely has a wall, that she is using to defend herself, for example I don't want to be around her, I can't do NC because until we get the finance sorted, I am still in our home, but I have been trying to do Essential contact only- so stuff relating to the divorce, or the kids. So I am surprised that she seems a little in a hough tonight as I told her that I didn't want to eat with her- I don't want to be around her- we stay largely in our own rooms once the kids are asleep- the whole thing is madness- but I am not convinced that there is any guilt on her part, she seems incredibly focussed, and has told everyone from our kids teachers/doctors, to her own gran- who has a weak heart- so god, she must mean it. However, I am starting to feel a little guilty, as the price for so called taking someone for granted seems to be huge- like what did I do to deserve this, except have the best relationship of my life- it does not make sense- APOLOGIES FOR RAMBLING MY THOUGHTS TODAY HAVE BEEN RANDOM AND MANY- ONE OF THOSE DAYS.

[just M.E.]

smallguy -

could be that she uses her partner or lover to fill the void within her, and that cannot be sustained .... needs a new and exciting partner to keep that rush going, the endorphins that some with infatuation.

Don't lay the guilt all on your table.

[Mrsympathy]

What they put on us is just complete insanity,my ex did the same thing saying I was mentally and emotionally abusive.She was just fine never any guilt or regret shown until I moved on.Now what she is finding is,she's in the same boat as with me in her relationship now and to be honest probably worse.If we were the people they claim we are would we be on here looking for answers,trying to figure out what we did wrong.People have problems in their marriages every day but most dont run for the hills and find somebody else to try and make them happy as quickly as our ex's did.We are not the bad ones here so quit playing into their game.I know now that the things my ex was saying about me were absurd although I thought they were true at one time.People its all about letting go,I know thats not an easy task believe me I sometimes still struggle,this is not how we pictured life being or raising a family this way but it was forced on us.Just be glad when you do get in another relationship you dont have to look back and say wow I messed up something that was really good,thats what our ex's are faced with everyday.

[John Bendix]

Mrsympathy,

 

I agree with you. The letting go to me is the act of acceptance. For me, this crucial in every aspect of life situations. If you do not accept what is at this moment, it will cause you suffering. You effect change into your life situation but that change has to be accomplished now and then accept the outcome, no matter what that might be.

 

As for insanity, my take on that is this. We all deal with our emotionally dysfunctional ego and allow it to cause pleasant and unpleasant emotional reactions. It is to what degree we allow this to happen that determines our our level of dysfunction in dealing with life's situations and the outside world. It seems that the Walkaway have allowed this to go on a runaway journey into dysfunction. When they re-write marital and non-marital history to the point that they do (for the sake of their ego), they have created certain delusions. A non-acceptance of the truth and reality. It is a common thread that they present two faces to the rest of the world (mask) to cover up their emotional distress. In medical terms, they are on the boarder of insanity.

 

Just my opinion.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

'>>'It seems that the Walkaway have allowed this to go on a runaway journey into dysfunction....they are on the boarder of insanity.'

 

i think this is getting carried away a bit... most people who leave marriages are NOT insane (in fact only a small percentage of the population is 'insane'), and close to half the population decides to divorce and remarry someone else eventually.

 

people who leave a marriage have made a decision that they want to live their life in a different way than being married to particular individual. that doesn't make them insane, and i just don't get the logic here.

 

i'm sorry, i just don't think it is fair to label people as 'insane' just because they have chosen to leave a marriage...

 

it is not so simple to put negative labels of 'insane' or 'walkaway' on people because they have decided to end a marriage. this is trying to shove a square peg in a round hole from a logic standpoint.

[John Bendix]

BeHappyBeStrong,

 

It seems that you have taken my words out of context and have actually gotten carried away. In quoting what I had written, you left out four sentences and just put in the first and last comments. You then tried to tie these separate comments as if they were directly connected. How correct or fair is that?

 

Where is it that I have said that people who have chosen to leave a marriage are insane as you have alluded to?

 

I have stated, read again if you will, that those who re-write history and refuse to acknowledge the events as they actually happened, are caught up in a delusion. And by re-affirming that delusion over and over again (for whatever emotional or egoic reasons), they are on the BOARDER of insanity. I have not labeled anyone insane. I never even used that word.

 

I am also missing the logic of the square peg in a round hole which I do not see where I have attempted to do so.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

What did you mean by this?

 

>>'In medical terms, they are on the boarder of insanity.'

 

that seems a pretty clear statment... who is 'they'?

 

I"m not sure how else to interpret your post... You are saying that people who are 'walkaways' try to rewrite history and hence are delusional and hence are on the border of insanity.

 

that is a big logical leap, and care should be taken not to imply that people who divorce might be insane or delusional because they choose to divorce. just because someone leaves a marriage does not necessarily mean they rewrite history nor are delusional nor are insane. everyone has their own feelings, emotions, and interpretations of their own marriage, and each partner can have a very different experience within the marriage, because it is a dynamic and every individual has their own interpretations of reality, emotions, etc.

 

that doesn't make them delusional! perhaps their interpretation of the marriage was that the relationship was just not tenable, and they have good reason to believe that, from their own perspective.

 

by square peg in a round hole i meant that i think you are trying very hard to extend the analogy that people who walk away from marriages are 'bad' people or somehow mentally disordered... i.e., you are moving from the metaphorical construct of 'walkaway' wife/spouse, and somehow trying to shove someone who walk aways from a marriage into the category of being somehow mentally ill by your post.

 

i don't think that is the case... people leave marriages for all kinds of reasons, and are not necessarily delusional nor should they be labelled as insane because they choose to divorce or to walk away from a marriage. that was my point. sorry if i didn't explain that correctly.

[scornandtorn]

'>>

it is not so simple to put negative labels of 'insane' or 'walkaway' on people because they have decided to end a marriage. this is trying to shove a square peg in a round hole from a logic standpoint.

 

BeStrongBeHappy, you have the right to your opinion however, the term 'walkaway' is simply a title we use to reference someone who has chosen to leave a marriage with no rational reasoning.

 

You, personally, may be able to rationalize the whole concept of destroying families for the selfish purpose of chasing some other version of happiness you may never find. That is a risk you have every right to take. Some other people still have the values associated with the words "through good times and bad times and until death do you part."

 

Quite simple really. If you don't think you are emotionally capable of sustaining a marriage you pledge to another, THEN DON'T GET MARRIED!

[John Bendix]

My last comment on this-

 

I HAVE taken care not to say that again but again you are extrapulating meaning into my very words. You are again putting words in my "mouth" so to speak. I have never said anyone is a bad person. Emotionally distressed, yes.

I did not say everyone or all anywhere in my post. I was referring to the emotionally distressed walkaways that scornandtorn has also mentioned.

 

Read again, I have never said that everyone who decides to leave a marriage tries to re-write history. You keep inferring that I did. It is a HUGE step to take what I have written and jumped to the conclusions that you have. I have implied nothing of what you are alleging.

 

I see your point and it is well taken but it has nothing whatsoever to do with my post. You have changed my post to make it fit into the point that you wanted to make, which is fairly obvious to any rational person.

 

You say that you do not know how to interpret my post. I would have been happy to clarify but you jumped to such outrageous conclusions, why bother?

[just M.E.]

BeStrongBeHappy -

 

I don't portray myself to have any great insight or knowledge on this subject of dysfunction, but what I have read about the behavior of the particular people described in general as Walkaways in this forum has been beyond the range of rational behavior.

 

That is an understatement to say the least. When my ex left, I left him a voice mail on his phone which I also saved on mine. I listen to it from time to time, and there was something said in there that still sticks out today. He created a very bizarre argument on that last day. He told me i was going to hell, I was a bad person. My guess was that he had run out of things to attack me on and decided faith was as good as anything. I have faith, no big deal, I always have, it is part of who i am and that year was filled with death, close friends, tough year, for me, not him, he didn't involve himself in any part of that, it was my job to travel, be there at the death beds and funerals, to be the shoulder to lean on. To him if there was emotional need involved, it was my job.

 

But back to the voice message, my thoughts at that moment in time were that he had generated a bizarre argument in order to leave during a fight because he possibly had promised someone he was leaving me or if that wasn't the case "he was insane". I don't label him as insane because he left me, that has nothing to do with it. I have left a marriage myself years ago, I don't think I was insane. The dysfunction and personality disorder references are earned by these people, not because they left, not because they were "labeled" as Walkaways, but because their behavior defied any rational understanding, because the level of manipulation and emotional abuse goes beyond what is able to be understood.

 

I wish more than anything, you could have been a fly on the wall, while my ex ranted, at me, at employees, at customers, at lawyers, at nearly everyone he could. This man was "fired" by his personal physician, as he was verbally abusive to the staff. To a large number of people who have been witness to his performances, he is "insane", "nuts", an "abusive jerk", "what an a$$hole". To me, he is a person who is dysfunctional and alcoholic, in no way is he a simply unhappy man who left his wife, that does not require the level of anger and abuse this man has generated. I don't live in a bubble of denial because of how I describe him, exactly opposite, me and many others here, have put our own psyche under the microscope to understand how this can happen. It is painful, please do not discount what we are working through.

 

No, not every person leaving a marriage is insane, but some are, and when that happens, they leave a wake of damage and destruction behind. We have found reassurance here in rebuilding and the people who have posted here have shown exceptional awareness and intelligence. Not a casual group to discount their own failures and faults.

 

Again just my opinion, but if you had been that fly on the wall, you would truly understand.

[surfjon]

The "walkaway" term used here is used to describe the situation that several of us on this particular thread seem to have experienced, it makes it easier as we chat back and forth, but it does adequately describe the phenomena we have experienced.

 

I don't think John was wrong in his using "border of insanity", this seems to be a question of semantics relative to what we have experienced in our unhappy journey.

[John Bendix]

Getting back to the discussion.

 

The guilt that we all feel for the dissolution of our marriages and families, how much of that do we take into the relationship with our Xs or STBXs when we have contact?

 

Though the Walkaways seem to express no guilt or remorse, is it eating them up inside? Is it (in the form of pain) helping to dictate their actions and reactions? If the hostility that is often shown is an expression of the pain that they have inside, then is it guilt that keeps energizing that pain and the emotional outbursts and/or withdrawal (wall)?