Channel YOUR gut instinct please!

[metrogirl]

I don't know why her life would change so fast, if she isn't making an attempt to be with the friend. IF you say that she knows that the friend digs her, and she steers clear from him and remains with her man, then no harm, no foul......

 

No one is attacking you for wanting advice. We just like to throw our opinions and questions out there.

[Solarist]

I apologize that you felt attacked, StrangeWay - it was not my intent. I suppose I should place a disclaimer that currently I am a husband whom is dealing with a wife whom has an infatuation with a "friend", thus perhaps it hit a nerve.

 

To answer your question you posed - if you respectfully bow out of this, you should do just that - bow out of it. By telling her "how much and how fast her life is about to change" really isn't bowing out.

 

Again, I am sorry that you feel attacked - it was not my intention to put your down or make you feel wrong - it is just my opinion that this friend is a little bit, er, slimy (which could be due to my rather tainted viewpoint ATM.)

[Zackinlaw]

Perhaps the best advice you could give would be to her current boyfriend ... a heads up that if he doesn't put in more effort, his relationship is under attack and in serious trouble.

[TheFoglifter]

... I think in the end, her friend is going to get what he wants. She can only control so much"

 

If she breaks up with her bf, is that not also what she wants?

 

... I respectfully bow out of this and decline to help, do I let on to her just how much and how fast her life is about to change, or do I remain silent?"

 

Telling the friend, would still be interfering. You can't really say "I don't want to help, but i'll do this one little thing". I bet if you did that, somehow you'd be doing another, and another, and another. I think this has to be all or nothing -- either you work with the friend, or you stay out of it.

 

If this guy's conviction is as strong as you say, then isn't it possible that eventually the bf will screw things up beyond repair, and she'll be single by default, so he should just wait for that?

 

One other consideration that hasn't been addressed yet. Does this guy really think he'll be successful as the rebound guy? It'd be a damn shame if they really were good together, but the girl didn't have the time to heal and then hurt the friend too.

[TheFoglifter]

I think I remember a King with a similar problem. He knew something to be true, but rather than wait for it to happen, he tried to make it happen.

 

His name was MacBeth.

[Zampotne]

Oh Fog, how smart you are-- I didn't think of that (nor did I give any advice either, but was thinking about it)

 

I agree not to push this issue and stay out of it--- if not for your girlfriend's sake, but for the guy friend that's crushing on her. If he tries to move in on a girl like this right after her relationship ends, he could very well be crushed. She sounds like the kind of girl that is going to need a lot of time to get over her current bf, even if he is a creep. She'd be having to get over a chunk of her LIFE.. they spent years together. If this guy that likes her so much is willing to wait- great. But are you?

[StrangeWay]

Telling the friend, would still be interfering. You can't really say "I don't want to help, but i'll do this one little thing". I bet if you did that, somehow you'd be doing another, and another, and another. I think this has to be all or nothing -- either you work with the friend, or you stay out of it.

 

I know, I know!!! That is why I was so on the fence about this! You said it exactly!

 

People, you have got to understand. If you love your SO, then protect what you have. Nourish it. Because there is ALWAYS someone around the corner who could do it better than you do.

 

Personally, I am rooting for her friend. As sick and mean as that sounds to some of you, I really am. He is actually stepping up to the plate, and willing to do what it takes. Its admirable. And I am tired of watching her BF rip her a new one in front of family and friends and people on the street. Its embarrasing and uncalled for. He openly insults her, mocks her, and acts as if she doesnt exist. And YES...He is ABUSIVE. I didnt bring that into it at first because I just wanted gut instincts at first shot. I noticed not one of you said "go with the friend".

Its survival of the fittest. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him trying to secure his (and ultimately hers) happiness. She wants it too, but is just so darn gunshy and tired of bad experiences that her fear has her firmly rooted in one place. He is perfectly capable, willing, appreciative and LOVES her. He WANTS her. These are new concepts for her, I am sure.

[TheFoglifter]

... sick and mean as that sounds to some of you, I really am. He is actually stepping up to the plate, and willing to do what it takes. Its admirable."

 

For this reason, I don't think you are wrong or sick to root for the friend. You as a sort of objective outsider, see a friend who is mistreated in one relationship, with the potential to be really happy.

 

Let me also echo the poster who said that the girl's sticking power is admirable. The fact that she COULD act on these feelings, and is following due course as opposed to just cheating is worth a lot.

 

Lets just hope the bf screws up naturally and she finally ends it. I'm curious whether the guy's strategy will be to pounce immediately (catch her from falling) or wait patiently until she has healed?

 

... noticed not one of you said "go with the friend". "

 

Probably because we all know its not that simple. I'm sure most people agree that the friend is the better guy (if we assume your account of things is accurate), but she is already in a relationship. If she was unattached and had to make the choice, I bet you'd have gotten a "go with the friend" from almost everyone.

[StrangeWay]

Thanks Foglifter.....I am just so tired of everyone just assuming that the right choice lies with what you have got now. She has obviously got herself into a predicament and is confused and unsure about how to get herself back out of it. I am sure that we all know what years of abuse can do to ones self esteem. She isnt the healthiest of mind, obviously to stick around with someone like that. So why should it be so wrong for one human being to notice and want to help another get out of such a horrible situation?? And he loves her, so his intentions are not as screwed up as her boyfriends who only seeks to control her and abuse her some more.

 

Everything I have written here is as precise as it can get being on how I am not actually any one of the 3 that are directly involved.

 

His strategy is to wait and nuture her until she feels that she is at a spot that she is willing to try again. His frame of mind is that once she is out of that situation, he will feel a little better that she is now in his hands and that will make him wait for as long as it takes. All he is trying to do is to force the situation to end a lot quicker than it probably will. Once it ends, he will take his time.

 

Believe me, she WILL be alot happier. I have never felt so sure about anything. I had the opportunity to talk to one of her friends x-girlfriends, and she even had nice things to say about him...and that says alot seeing on how she was an ex....

 

One thing is for sure- He does have plans up his sleeve, and they are a bit devious. He will go about these plans with or without my help.

 

I wish I knew what to do...it would be great to take part in getting her out of this situation and into the arms of someone who absolutely adores her......

 

Free will and all...she is just so very stubborn that I dont think she will see the light any time soon. He is just as stubborn to make her see that light. The boyfriend could care less as long as she is putting up with his crap and being his maid.

 

I wonder in the end who will win out? Obviously if she says no, its no....but he can accept "no" to her face, but can still plan "yes" behind her back...She is not using manipulation to back up her no, but he is definitely using manipulation to back up his yes.

 

Thanks to all who left their advice. And thank you foglifter for not being as strongly opposed to it as most.

[servedcold]

Well the BF doesn't sound like the right guy for the girl, but the friend sounds like the worst possible choice. Sure, he makes a great romantic lead in a Harlequin Romance or Bronte novel, but in real life, this thread anyway, he sounds kind of pathetic and not very manly.

 

He plots in the background to win the girl from an existing relationship? Real men step up and make their intentions -known-, they don't scheme like this. If the woman isn't interested, then he moves on with his LIFE and finds an AVAILABLE woman who returns his affection. Men who obsess over taken women aren't generally healthy unless they have a past of their own with the woman, and still not usually healthy even then. Is it possible that the BF is keyed into this conflict in her, and resentment fuels his bad behavior to an extent? Is it possible that the true basis of the friends's attraction for the woman is her unavailability?

 

You describe the potential of the friend and the woman in a very dramatic way, as if they are star-crossed lovers somehow. Why do you think she and the friend are so "right" for each other, and would form a great, long-lasting relationship? The test of a relationship is what level of effort the partners will put in when the honeymoon fades, not how well they seduce each other or become infatuated, those are the easy parts.

 

There's always this "friend" in the background with desirable women, often several of them. I use these guys as a test of whether the woman is worth my time and heart, and whether she truly respects and values me. If she goes to such a man, or even entertains it, she doesn't deserve me, but deserves the frivolous guy she ends up with.

[TheFoglifter]

... Foglifter.....I am just so tired of everyone just assuming that the right choice lies with what you have got now."

 

Well, a bird in hand IS worth two in the bush. But what if the bird you have isn't as good as the bird you could get?

 

... plots in the background to win the girl from an existing relationship? Real men step up and make their intentions -known-, they don't scheme like this. If the woman isn't interested, then he moves on with his LIFE and finds an AVAILABLE woman who returns his affection."

 

This is where it got murky. I'm pretty sure the girl knows that the friend has feelings for her, as he has made it known through words and actions. I wish that StrangeWay had NOT chosen the word "manipulation" because of the context it carries.

 

Although to be fair, as soon as it went from "he has ideas on how to show her he is the one" to "he has ideas on how to break them up", I'd say things took a scarier turn. When you want something so badly, you'll do anything to get it. I myself have thought up COUNTLESS shady schemes and stories that might have gotten me a woman. But I never went through with any of them because I didn't want to live with the idea that our relationship would never have happened if I hadn't told some cockamamie lie.

 

Plus, it had occurred to me that this friend has spent so much time anticipating his prize, that he may very well lose interest once he has it. What if she isn't all he thought? What if 2 weeks after they get together, he says "wow...... that totally wasn't worth it". Where will she be then?

 

Of course one other possibility -- friend takes his time and girl meets a new guy. I quote this speech a lot because its so true. She may tell the friend something like "I'm really thankful for the friendship and care you've given me during this difficult time in my life. Thanks to your support, I've met a wonderful man who I see a future with". Usually that speech is to motivate guys to not get friendzoned, but its applicable here.

[StrangeWay]

Just to update whats been happening recently; I guess they got into a fight, the girl and my friend. She told him flat out that he shouldnt be wasting his time, and of course, he responded with something of the like "I never waste my time, never"....

 

And he doesnt. When I first heard about all of this, I must admit, I tended to side with the girl because he did seem shady. But after I got to know him, I realized that he knew what he wanted and set out to get it. I too told him that he would be better off not wasting his time, and that was when he filled me in, telling me that everything he does is with purpose and reason, and that he never wastes his time. And he doesnt. I have seen first hand how this man operates. He would not put all his chips down if he wasnt sure it was going to be a sure thing...and even then, if it wasnt a sure thing, he would make sure he had something to back it up to make it a sure thing.

 

He plots in the background to win the girl from an existing relationship? Real men step up and make their intentions -known-, they don't scheme like this

 

He DID make his intentions known in the beginning, a fact she didnt appreciate and told him as much. So now, he basically plays it off as if he has better things to do, (some minor setbacks with that) because he feels if he clues her in, she will avoid him. So now he basically keeps his plans to himself, because according to him, sooner or later she is going to find out and why cause her to be uptight right now when she doesnt have to be?

 

Basically, he's not the least bit worried. He knows he will get her eventually, and is plotting his course accordingly. He wants me to help loosen the deathgrip she has got on her boyfriend. She is so darn sure that everyone is out to get her, that she doesnt want to take anymore risks.

 

This guy is not a stupid little boy. He is a man, through and through. He knows what he is doing, so dont worry about that, servedcold.

 

You describe the potential of the friend and the woman in a very dramatic way, as if they are star-crossed lovers somehow

 

Maybe they are? And if I am being dramatic, so what? I am telling it exactly as I see it. Who cares how I describe it? Thats less important than what the content is.

 

Plus, it had occurred to me that this friend has spent so much time anticipating his prize, that he may very well lose interest once he has it. What if she isn't all he thought? What if 2 weeks after they get together, he says "wow...... that totally wasn't worth it". Where will she be then?

 

Good Point, Fog....And I had raised that very question with him, along with the question of wanting what he cant have. This is not that case. He is well aware of how he feels about her. And he is well aware of the honeymoon phase. There is not one part of this whole thing he hasnt dissected and analyzed. He is a very thorough man. Very Very thourough. Along with being a very thorough man, he is also very detailed and highly analytical. That is just how his mind works. He knows what love is, and what sex is, and what infatuation is, he has been through it all. Has loads of experience, and is very wordly. For him, this is it. The real deal.

 

 

But I never went through with any of them because I didn't want to live with the idea that our relationship would never have happened if I hadn't told some cockamamie lie.

 

I do not think that he has intentions of any sort of "cockamamie lie". I think he has intentions of exposing her boyfriend for the fraud that he is. Hey, alls fair in this instance, because if the boyfriend falls for it, then thats on him, right? He doesnt have to go for it, right? It doesnt matter what kind of temptation it was, or how many drinks he drank, if he takes the bait, its his own fault, right?

 

Specifically, he wants to set her boyfriend up with a decoy, and let it play out from there. He of course will be ready with the camera. Devious? Yes. But can it all be avoided? Of course. The boyfriend can just walk away and decide not to take the bait at all.

 

All he wants me to do in this, is to be what I already am to her, which is supportive yet trying to loosen her grip on the BF, so that when the time is right, it will be easier for her to let go of BF, instead of clinging to him and trying to reconcile. You just have to understand what this girl has been through in her life to understand why she is even with the guy she is with. Its a sad story, and one she doesnt like to talk about.

[TheFoglifter]

... he wants to set her boyfriend up with a decoy, and let it play out from there. He of course will be ready with the camera. Devious? Yes. But can it all be avoided? Of course. The boyfriend can just walk away and decide not to take the bait at all."

 

This could be very smart or very shady. I agree that if he gets a girl to come on to the boyfriend and the boyfriend puts himself in a compromising position, then yes he is implicating himself. But what if the boyfriend genuinely tells the decoy to get lost, but the friend photographs the incident and still makes it look like bad. Hell, I'm good on the computer, why even wait! If I just got a decent head shot, I could make the rest myself!

 

Of course like many of these moments caught on camera, part of me always thinks "wow... how lucky it was that a person who stands to profit so much from this incredibly random and secret incident was not ONLY right there to witness it, but happened to have a camera on him as well!"

[StrangeWay]

Of course like many of these moments caught on camera, part of me always thinks "wow... how lucky it was that a person who stands to profit so much from this incredibly random and secret incident was not ONLY right there to witness it, but happened to have a camera on him as well!"

 

Thanks Fog....yes, the information passing stage....Of course he cant be implicated at all in any of this, or she will probably cry foul....What he wants to do is to mail it to her anonymously, knowing full well that she will be on the phone with me within seconds. And my role is to take it from there, which is basically something I would do already-invite her over to talk about it, only with a few minor adjustments...you know, strike while the iron is hot type thing.

 

But what if the boyfriend genuinely tells the decoy to get lost, but the friend photographs the incident and still makes it look like bad. Hell, I'm good on the computer, why even wait! If I just got a decent head shot, I could make the rest myself!

 

He is hoping it doesnt come to this, but we all know full well that it wont. This is a no-brainer...the boyfriend is extremely weak and shallow, and is like putty for attention from the opposite sex. To be fair, I will point out that a secondary plan with regards to that is in motion....Such as a complete analytical work up of her boyfriend, his likes, preferences, turn offs, to receive the optimal results. This is all still a bit fuzzy, but its becoming a little clearer as time goes by. This is in the works...I can still bow out at any time, its not too late, but I am becoming hesitant to walk away from it.

 

What do you think?

[Dako]

Strange,

What does your girlfriend think of this?

[TheFoglifter]

... can still bow out at any time, its not too late, but I am becoming hesitant to walk away from it. "

 

I believe besides "gut instinct", this was your second question -- whether or not to walk. Please stay involved or at least informed, this is extremely entertaining and riveting!

 

The friend has clearly done his homework, and the only problem from what you described is how he can make it seem like he himself isn't the one involved. It would be cool if he worked for some newspaper or some website where the photo could be posted as part of a story that he "just happened" to find!

 

I really want to know how this plays out. If the boyfriend is going to be easy to manipulate, then great for the friend.

 

Has anyone considered the consequences of how this girl will feel when yet another relationship turns to crap? Could that play into the friend's favor (I'll be the good man you've always wanted) or will that make her even more distrusting of men?

[Weeblie]

Hi StrangeWay,

 

My gut instinct says, the friend is wasting his time.

And after reading the rest of the posts, I still feel the same way. Your friend isn't determined. He's obsessed.

 

Where's the love in all this? How cruel to set up the boyfriend and then show her it. How is that love? Why force her to break up with her boyfriend and have her endure the hurt and humiliation of her boyfriend cheating on her? What a blow to her spirit that'll be. Consider the pain that'll put her through.

 

Shouldn't she be allowed to decide if that relationship isn't one that she wants? Wouldn't that be more healthy for her?

 

This so called friend is a dark selfish person. His planning and determination may be intriguing, maybe you could confuse it with honorable. But it's still SELFISH.

[Dako]

To be perfectly honest, the friend appears to be an alter ego.

[StrangeWay]

Where's the love in all this? How cruel to set up the boyfriend and then show her it. How is that love? Why force her to break up with her boyfriend and have her endure the hurt and humiliation of her boyfriend cheating on her? What a blow to her spirit that'll be. Consider the pain that'll put her through.

 

Actually, she has been trailing this cheating theory for quite some time now, so I doubt she would be too surprised. All we would be doing is giving her proof to her fears, because as it is now, she thinks she is a crazy wreck who is imagining things, which in my opinion is even more damaging than finding out something she has been suspecting for some time now.

 

I dont think I need to go into her latest theory here, with copies of cell phone bill in hand. Suffice to say, the seed of doubt has already been planted by none other than her prince charming boyfriend.

 

 

This so called friend is a dark selfish person. His planning and determination may be intriguing, maybe you could confuse it with honorable. But it's still SELFISH.

 

So what? So is sitting back and letting her take care of it all, because "its not my place to interfere"

 

 

It would be cool if he worked for some newspaper or some website where the photo could be posted as part of a story that he "just happened" to find!

 

Yes, but then wont he be implicated in it? He wants NO PART of this AT ALL. Because if she somehow finds out he was involved, she will immediately overlook what actually happened.

 

 

To be perfectly honest, the friend appears to be an alter ego.

 

meaning?

[TheFoglifter]

... we would be doing"

 

So you are, and continue to remain involved. Thank you

 

... dont think I need to go into her latest theory here, with copies of cell phone bill in hand. Suffice to say, the seed of doubt has already been planted by none other than her prince charming boyfriend."

 

Is he actually cheating, or is he just implicating himself in a bad situation?

 

I know you don't want to detail the entire plan here, so I'm just assuming that it is his job to capture the evidence, and then it will be transmitted to the girlfriend through a parallel and ostensibly unrelated channel. If this fails, or if the boyfriend doesn't take the bait, there will be continued attempts until the evidence is obtained.

 

So when does the sting happen?

[StrangeWay]

Is he actually cheating, or is he just implicating himself in a bad situation?

 

On this one, we all really have no idea here. There is some heavy speculation, specifically because of his lying and not being where he was supposed to be pretty much most of the time, and upon further investigation (which was entirely on her own doing) she turned up the source of the lying and not being where he was saying he was to be directly attributed to a girl...well, actually mutiple girls, but one in particular that has been around for some time.

 

Then, there are his behaviours. His shady sneakiness when he is actually in her presense around other women....I have witnessed him actually grope on another females body at a party, but he got out of it by puking soon after and saying that he was so drunk he didnt even know what he was doing. Which might or might not be true, but come on, if he is getting so drunk he cant remember what he is doing, and it turns out that what he is doing is groping on body parts, what do you really think he is doing when he is drunk and she is not around to see it? Worse yet, is that he actually has these type of behaviours previlently when he is drunk...not just beligerence, or moodiness, but groping.

 

Aside from drunken parties, is his leering and minimizing her importance ESPECIALLY when in the vicinity of other women...and if they are hot, forget it, he is like a barnacle the whole night, constantly manuevering for a quick glimpse up a skirt or down the shirt. Its just sickening. Somehow, he has worked her over enough to make her think it is all her, and that she really needs help or to be put away at a mental hospital, and has actually threatened her with this a time or two.

 

So you are, and continue to remain involved. Thank you

 

You are a very clever one, Fog!

 

I am battling whether or not it is such a good idea...and the only reason for that is because this type of situation is such a rare one. Usually, if one person rejects another, they move on. This is the first time I have actually seen someone actually do something about it. My interest is definitely peaked, but I am a little worried I might get in over my head.

 

So when does the sting happen?

 

Not sure, we have been talking about it, off and on. It is definitely still in its earlier phases, having just been a product of an intense brainstorm. Of course, I would love your opinions, ideas and inputs...

 

It still seems so risky, but damn! Think about it! You only live once, when will I have a chance to see something like this again? Its rare, and so is she and he. And I have a chance to help her out too. Its actually no different then a family member stepping in (which by the way, she has none) except instead of a family member stepping in, and harranging the poor girl about needing to leave the abusive boyfriend, its a bit more proactive than that.

[StrangeWay]

This whole thing is a twisted mess and I frankly feel sorry for the woman who has people like this around her. She is being manipulated and schemed against on all angles, you and this other guy are not friends, he's as bad as the BF for all his games and attempts to break them up, and you are being no good for the situation because you are just a hanger on and from the sounds of things the only reason you have any interest is because its drama to watch. If you really are the obsever friend you claim to be (which I highly doubt) then stay out of it, you are not involved, it is not your business or your relationship.

 

 

 

 

 

and from the sounds of things the only reason you have any interest is because its drama to watch.

 

Did you not see where I typed in that I have a chance to help her out too? And that part about family members? She has no family, and someone has got to get her out of this mess, instead of standing on the sidelines and wishing she would eventually make the right choice. Even if she doesnt end up with my friend, at least she is out of this fricken situation, which would be a blessing. She is TORMENTING herself with this, and its not a pretty sight.

 

If you really are the obsever friend you claim to be (which I highly doubt) then stay out of it, you are not involved, it is not your business or your relationship

 

What the hell good does observing do? If anything, that is a worse choice by far....To just stand back and watch her keep screwing up...she is begging for help..her actions speak volumes, OF COURSE its my place. You consider it my place to step back?? She IS my friend, and I am at least remaining proactive in her life instead of taking the attitude of "oh well, its not my life, so I could give a flip" How SELFISH is that?

 

 

you and this other guy are not friends, he's as bad as the BF for all his games and attempts to break them up

 

Can you honestly give me another reason besides "its not your business" as to why this is so wrong? Why is it so wrong for him to want to break them up? Why is that action viewed as wrong?

[Dako]

It's dishonest.

 

You keep blurring the line between you and your friend. The more you write the more that happens.

[StrangeWay]

It's dishonest.

 

And you can tell me in 100% complete honesty that you have never been dishonest even a little in any of your relationships?

 

You can say all you want about helping her, but ultimately it is HER life and HER choices, not yours, not the boyfriends, not the manipulative other guy.

 

Your right. It is her life and her choices. And it still will be her life and her choice. No one said anything about holding a gun to her head and making her do anything at all. Ultimately she will make the choice.

 

 

Why is it wrong? Because he's manipulating her. He's no better than her boyfriend if he does that. Picking the lesser evil is not good for your friend. She will just go from one type of abuse to another.

 

BUT...It will still be HER choice. When all is said and done, it is still going to be HER CHOICE. Just because we all butt in, it does not mean she wont have the final say. Because she will. And my friend is not an abuser. I have met his ex. She didnt say anything about abuse whatsoever. In fact, only good things were said about my friend. They broke up because they wanted to go in different directions, nothing more or less. No mention of manipulation and dark selfishness, or abuse.

[StrangeWay]

You keep blurring the line between you and your friend. The more you write the more that happens.

 

Not sure what you mean by this?