Fletch F. Fletch

S&D, I am sorry that things ended up this way for you. I really am. I think that you handled yourself perfectly and said exactly what needed to be said. You drew the line, demonstrating that you are a strong and emotionally healthy person. You should be proud of yourself, though I am sure that is of little consolation for you at this point. Once the emotions settle after this exchange, I am sure you will make decisions about next steps. Before then, it is an all too familiar routine of NC and healing. But it should be easier this time around. I dont want to bash the exgf, as she is obviously very confused, and I think she is trying to find herself - she has made some choice that she will bear the consequences of. One thing to consider if you do remain open to the possibility of reconciliation in the future... you may be able to insist upon immediate couples counseling. She could be more receptive to that idea now, and it may be good for the both of you. Just a thought. As usual, feel free to PM me. Fletch

I am glued to the computer screen waiting for the next chapter. I feel like the audience at the end of the "Truman Show" (the Jim Carey movie).

Hey Left, Long time no speak. I see S&D beat me to the punch. But I want to echo his thoughts. Glad to hear things are progressing...I think we all saw the ingredients for a reconciliations...good for you. Remember - you have the power/control here. You have grown so much during this time and you deserve someone is going to meet you in the middle, someone that is going to see the importance of your relationship and do what it takes (on their part) to make things right. I think your bf has come along way, so give him credit for that - and dont take it for granted. However, if he is still not meeting your needs, you need to keep communicating with him until he gets it and he RESPONDS. Do not settle until you both are getting your needs met in the relationship. Keep up the good work! Fletch.

I hear what you are all saying about not announcing NC, but I offer a couple of alternatives for debate: First of the all, the goal of my reinstated NC is to allow my self to become less bitter and move on with my life. While I have healed significantly from the initial break-up this protracted limbo has caused me to regress a bit. Even if she were to come to be today, and say that we were 100% back together, I still think I would need some time to myself. Second, I want to send a message that it she needs to "step up" and take care of business. I am not going to be around forever. She has not shown me yet that she is willing to fight for us. This is a trait that is imperative to have in a life-long relationship, and if she doesn't have it, then she is by definition the wrong person. So the options are: 1. NC instituted without announcement: a. Pros – Those cited by everyone above. It will be a bit of a shock, and cause her to feel the loss, unexpectedly b. Cons – she will likely become defensive and pissed, and she'll blame me for her shock (she will think it is rude that I am not returning her e-mails and phone calls). She may think that I just lost interest, which would justify in her mind, the fact that she did not commit to the reconciliation. In this case, she will miss the point that it was her lack of action that has caused me to pull away. 2. NC instituted with a very simple message: "I need some space right now" a. Pros – everyone hates those words, because it is vague. It will leave her guessing. She will still feel the loss, and she will question if it was something that she did to cause this. It leaves everything open-ended. b. Cons - Again, she can justify to herself the benefit of not committing to the reconciliation. She may miss the point. But at least she is not reacting to the delivery of the message. 3. NC instituted with a more detailed message: "I need some space right now, as I feel our reconciliation has stagnated. I am in a good place right now in my heart. I have healed and I want to share my time with someone who values what I have to offer. You obviously have some issues that you need to address, I hope that you take care of them and that you can heal from our experience. Take care of yourself, and when and if you feel that you are ready to commit 100% effort to a reconciliation, then call me. I'll be around. If you decide that we are not meant to be, that's okay too. I wish you the best." a. Pros – I am explicit with the reasons for me to institute NC. She will not be guessing. It tells her that she needs to take care of herself, and there is an underlying risk of losing me if she does not act quickly. It also tells her that I am okay with losing her, as I am willing to walk away. b. Cons – I cant think of any. Sure the ball is in her court to come back to me. But as I have said before, our exs have control of this process whether we like it or not. I will be truly fine with walking away, and view this as final. I am off to look for someone new. If she comes back, I will deal with our issues at that point. Votes? But give me your reasoning as well. Feel free to invent your own option as well.

Well, the "Preacher of Patience" has just about lost it all. I am tired…just too tired to "try" anymore. As I have stayed away from giving and receiving advice from this board for a couple of weeks to collect my thoughts and clear my mind, I am reaching the conclusion that I just need to move on and cut ties with the Exgf. Reinstitute NC. I'd like to hear your thoughts. The mini update is pretty bland. The exgf and I continue to have brief conversations every few days. Nothing deep, and nothing exciting…just talks what is going on in our respective lives. She continues to e-mail me every few days as well with the same boring topics. The only positive to take away from these communications, is that the frequency seems to be increasing – daily e-mails now. Were it not for her car trouble 2 weeks ago, I would not have seen her for nearly a month. Remember, she canceled our last date over a month ago. At that point I made the decision that it would be her that would have to initiate a "date" or a meeting… and she has not done so. Before proceeding with anything. she was waiting for her first counseling session, which took place this past weekend (delayed 2 weeks because of her car trouble) from which I only received a 2 minute download. She wants to change counselors, as she was not that comfortable with this one. She also wants to see the new counselor by herself more before I am invited. That's it. I still have no F__ing clue what her issues are and what she needs to discuss, as she claims that she is not angry with me anymore. Who knows how long it will take for her to find a new counselor. So, the bottom line is I am feeling strung along. As far as the exgf is concerned, I feel like I am drifting in space. I feel myself becoming bitter, and I do not want to be that way. This will begin to impact our interactions negatively. I have voluntarily relinquished control of this process to her, and I feel like I am spinning in circles. While I continue to "move on" with my life and really enjoyed my summer with plenty of activities, I have found that trying to not be emotionally invested in the exgf still takes emotional investment. And as much as I tell myself, "move on," "play it cool," "go with the flow," "be patient" the mere contact with her, whether it be e-mail or phone calls, keeps me involved and prohibits me from completely moving on. I think I am near the end of my rope with her. At the same time, exgf continues to enjoy the benefits of my emotional support and presense. This I wouldn't mind so much, if I felt that we had direction, a plan, a something. So, I am close to deciding to reinstitute NC. I plan to tell her this in a positive conversation so that she does not feel threatened, but at the same time I know that the message is threatening. What do you think?

Leftalone, I think this was a HUGE exchange, as painful and confusing as it might have been. The best part was that it appeared to be initiated by the exbf and NOT you (it was he who referenced "the other man" to initiate the conversation) You just took advantage of the opportunity to air your grievances and issues as well. Ultimately you were able to synchronize your expectations with the the exbf (at least for the moment), and were able to convey much of your feelings, which had to feel good, no? He even responded by changing his behavior the next morning. This was also good for the exbf, so that he could clear some of is pent-up concerns. It confirmed for you that the exbf is majorly confused/cautious/scared right now, but DOES want to be with you (maybe even exclusively). Follow your own advice to him and take it slow. Also, the fact that the exbf offered to pull back on sex was mature on his part (just think, I guy pulled back on sex!). This gives you back A LOT of power without having to wrestle it away from him. DON'T SQUANDER IT. While sex shouldn't be used as a "bargaining chip" in any relationship, you can now offer it to him ONLY when you feel comfortable that he his meeting your emotional needs and is at the same commitment level as you. Treat this with care, because it gives you power to influence and gauge the relationship going forward. It wont be that long before he starts asking you for it again (when I say not long… think weeks not days). After reading your update however, I am left with one nagging question - Are you two exclusive? If you do not know, then you may want to revisit this briefly with the exbf – whatever his answer is… be cool with it and don't make a long discussion out of it – just say "thanks, I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page. I was a bit confused on this topic after our discussion". By playing it cool if he says "no", it will show that you are confident in yourself and other dating possibilities. If you are not exclusive, I would not be canceling your dates with the "other man" JUST because you think it may make you exbf feel bad…especially if you think he is going to date other women. Do what is best for you. I suspect that there will be continued waffling on his part, so prepare yourself. But I do think this was a productive discussion.

Craig, Awesome. A great night, indeed! I think you have the right frame of mind and handled things well. Be sure to walk your talk here...learn from the experience of S&D and myself that a pull-back or continued waffling by the exgf could happen... so dont allow yourself to get frustrated. Let her lead on the communications and you continue to get on with your life. Keep up the good work.

I have been too busy participating in other threads to provide my own update. First, I will echo thoughts expressed by Leftalone on her thread – if it were not for this sight and our shared knowledge/experience, I do not believe that I would in the position that I am today. Knowing that my experiences/feelings/frustrations/tribulations are not unique has allowed me to be more patient and accepting of my status. Providing feedback to others is just as therapeutic as receiving the advice myself. Now to the update: I had my first counseling session almost 2 weeks ago (again this counseling was all initiated by the exgf)… not as bad as I thought it would be. In this first session I was by myself (no exgf), and I conveyed to the counselor my perspective on the situation. I expressed my frustrations with my current state of limbo, and explained my interactions with the exgf in trying to get her back. Bottom line…the counselor said I am on the right track, and have done as much as I can. She reminded me that I cannot control my exgf, she has to come around on her own. The fact that the exgf wants to see a counselor is a good sign, but results are not guaranteed, and we do not yet know what she wants to talk about. The counselor will know more once the exgf has her initial individual session. Between the visit to the counselor and last weekend, I had little interaction with the exgf. I was trying to work-out my frustrations from her pulling-back on our reconciliation efforts (see prior updates). The exgf did send a flurry of emails over a couple day period. Nothing deep, I just think she sensed that I was pissed and was trying to make sure that I was "around." I provided delayed responses. We hadn't talked in almost a week, so I lobbed in a simple phone call that lasted about 3 minutes – her voice had softened a lot from the cold and businesslike tone I had heard the week before. I think the brief modified NC, worked for both of us. Last weekend was the first scheduled counseling session for the exgf. This was an anticipated milestone for me, because the exgf had hoped to have better perspective on what she should do about us after meeting with the counselor. Though I thought her counseling expectations were high, I was still eager for this session to happen. Well, on the day of the session, I receive a call from the exgf. She says that her car wont start. I ask how can I help her. She says that she was headed to the counselor (who is 15 minutes away by car), and she doesn't know what to do. Knowing that this counseling session was important to her (and I didnt want this session to be rescheduled) I offered her a ride. She turns me down. She says that she wanted to do this on her own and that it would be weird for me to drive her home after she had just talked with the counselor about me (which leads me to question what she still needs to unload from her mind, as I thought she already unloaded it all on me). I re-asked the question, "what do you want me to do?" She re-thinks her answer, and begrudgingly accepts the ride to the counselor. I'm thinking "Score! I'm getting points for helping and she will have her session." But this saga isn't over…as soon as I pick her up and enter the highway – traffic jam. We aren't going anywhere. After 20 minutes of going nowhere, she had to cancel the session. I'm bummed, but don't show it. After exiting the highway we went to lunch. It actually turned out to be a good impromptu "date." We have light, positive conversation about everything except the relationship. Afterwards, I drive her home and get a few good kisses good bye and some huge hugs. Once again I am excited about our date, but I have learned my lesson from the last time. Despite these positive signals, I don't want to pressure her. I am going to play it cool. I am going to let her lead on any communications – we have exchanged a few e-mails but have not talked since the date. Maybe I'll throw in a short call here and there. Now I have to wait 2 more weeks for her re-scheduled counseling session. Meanwhile, I am trying to eat the same advice I am dishing out to others on this site. "Patience" I keep telling myself as my mood fluctuates between indifference and excitment.

Leftalone, You definitely rival me in the overanalysis department. I will stare at a one sentence e-mail from the EXGF that says "Good Morning." and try to derive the underlying code. You have it so good right now - stop micro-managing... you are measuring time in days... thats unreasonable, no wonder you are frustrating yourself. At this stage things happens in weeks/months. If you get tired of initiating then stop, but allow the EXBF some time to initiate before your get frustrated and raise an issue (like give it a few weeks). Forget that you provided the opportunity to be invited last night, the fact remains that he DID invite. You need to start focusing on the positive aspect of your interactions (and there are plenty) and stop looking for what is missing. The relationship is not going to be like it used to at this stage. Let it flow. Many people on this board would love to be in your position. Keep the faith.

Leftalone, Once again I agree with S&D. But just to add my support and perspective...in the last talk that I had with my exgf a few weeks ago (the one where she pulled back from her commitment to give 100%) she specifically said to me "I know you want black and white right now, but all I can offer you is gray." At the time I accepted this without pushing-back because I knew that she was already feeling pressure, I didnt need to add more. After that conversation, I had to make the determination for myself if I can live in the "gray" area... and right now I am taking it day by day. After getting over my initial frustration of her pull-back, I accepted that this is all that I am going to receive from her right now, my frustration level has gone way down. So, I am learning to play the fence and being comfortable in the gray... interacting with the exgf periodically in one hand, and getting on with my life on the other. We'll see how long this lasts. So, I think you need to accept being in the gray area if you are going to play this one out...without a label on your relationship. You are dating your ex, and free to date other people. Try to enjoy this time. I think these things come to a head naturally at some point. If you add pressure to your ex now, he is likely to pull back. I think you have a great thing going. You are interacting very frequently (I have seen my Ex once every 2 weeks, and maybe we talk once per week. No sleeping over. Only light affectionate kisses). So dont take for granted how often you are interacting. But some words of caution...where the male/female difference thing will come in. During this period, if he is not exclusive with you, I dont think you should be giving him sex. This is the one bargaining chip that you have, that he will try to grasp. If you are giving him everything, there is no need for him to delve further into the relationship. Once he starts asking for sex, this is when you can start asking your questions about the relationship - to make sure you are on the same page (you women seem to have a great sense of when to do this anyway). Play it cool though. Dont make it a threat, dont be confrontational.

I agree with S&D. Do not allow yourself to get dragged back in. This is why I hate email/IMs so much. The ex can send you a communication so easily, just to see if you respond. Then it becomes this game of psychological security tennis (a term I think Beec coined). Stop this cylce before it starts, because you WILL drive yourself nuts eventually. Should I respond? What should I say? Is she going to respond back? Why isnt she sendingme e-mails any more? This will happen with each e-mail she sends to you. I offer 2 courses of action for your consideration. You are in a good position to nip this in the bud.. 1) Do not respond to any e-mails. Force her to CALL you if she has something substantial to say. She will then ask when she calls "why dont you respond to my e-mails". To which you respond politely, "As we had discussed, I am moving on. While I appreciate the sentiment you expressed in the e-mails, I prefer that we have any substantial communication by phone or in person. Please do not be offended if I do not repond to your e-mails." 2) Send her and e-mail now that says "As we had discussed, I am moving on. While I appreciate the sentiment you expressed in the e-mails, I prefer that we have any substantial communication by phone or in person. Please do not be offended if I do not repond to your e-mails." Hopefully this will stop her from sending future emails. NC means NC and until your ex makes up her mind, do not allow her to fall back into the pattern that you just broke. Be strong.

Wow, some good activity in the last few days for Craig and S&D. Kudos to both of you. Perhaps we are figuring out how to ride this rollercoaster without getting dizzy afterall. S&D – I'm glad you didn't send the e-mail. To add another vote – silence/ limited NC is the best medicine for now. Let her lead with most contact. If you need to initiate a simple, singular e-mail periodically (once every week or so), then go ahead. I have a feeling this next stretch is a fairly long one, so prepare yourself mentally. As we have all agreed, she is self-ish and confused right now. But this is an affliction that all of exs seem to have. Our best move is to stay out of their way. (BTW – If I hadn't read these threads to realize this a common trait of the dumper, I would have probably drop-kicked my ex in a fit of anger by now [thats a football term, ladies, I am not promoting physical violence]. So this knowledge has been helpful for me at least to deal with my frustrations.) One thing on the sex/dating topic…I'll add my 2 cents. My view is that anything that happens between you and another chick during this break-up period, whether it be dating or sex, is your business and does not need to be disclosed to the ex. I agree that it was manipulative for her to disclose her encounter, and she only did so to induce you to volunteer the same. Don't take the bait.

Cool, a real-time response! Thanks Scout. You did hit the nail on the head with he ultimately question - "Do I want my ex back and is he/she worth the struggle?" Only we can answer these questions for ourselves. Maybe a counselor who hears both side of the story can provide assistance in understanding issues - but they will steer clear of recommending a decision (unless abuse is involved of course). This is why I try to stay out of giving advice on this question. Sometimes many of us have not taken the time to heal after a break-up, and we dont approach this question with a clear head. We are still chasing our exs to fill the void, and sometimes just get caught-up in the chase. Thats why NC for a good few months, as painful as it is, is really the right course of action.

S&D and Scout, I dont think that we necessarily disagree on the facts. However, I think we have one view of the situation that is "the glass is half full" and another with the view as "the glass is half empty." And IF your ultimate goal is to get the ex back you need to be positive (that doesn't mean delusional), and every interaction at this point, whether written or verbal, needs to be supportive, positive, and understanding. Anything less will create a greater distance between the two of you. To continue fruitless debates will only continue the cycle of separation, where each interaction drives the other person further away. Right now, insofar as your interactions with the exgf is concerned, the focus should solely be on her. All other times, the focus is on you. ONLY once you have gotten your ex to commit more emotionally to a reconciliation, will there be time to introduce your issues for negotiation. Until then, why create your own obstacles? She will just resist. Please don't interpret what I am about to say as justifying the actions of our exs, as I too get extremely frustrated with their behavior. However, if we are to win the war here, we have to understand their point of view….ACCEPT IT (because we aint going to change it), then rise above it and be the more mature person in any response we provide to them. In some instances, the more mature response is to bit our tongue, and let things simmer. Sure they are being selfish right now. But, remember, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, WE were the selfish ones at the end of the relationship that required them to give more than they received. Our selfishness was the reason for the break-up – the reason they had to initiate this ugly, emotionally charged and painful process. We are the reason for their pain. They are now taking the time, space, energy that was previously devoted to us, and are working on themselves. They are now putting themselves first, just as we did during NC immediately following the break-up. Conceptually, I don't see anything wrong with this. Sure it is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING TO US that the reconciliation does not progress faster, but guess what??…WE ARENT IN CONTROL!! At this stage of a reconciliation process, we have to give up control of the process, in order that we can regain it later in the relationship. The sooner we truly accept this, the sooner we can mitigate our own frustration. What did I just say? We can control our own frustration? YES, by altering our expectations and truly accepting that which we CANNOT control, we can mitigate our own frustration. I am just learning how to do this, as I previously just understood the concept. To debate "who is being more selfish", "who is being selfish now", "whose selfishness caused the break-up" or point out the number of 'I's vs "We's" in a letter, is a battle that CANNOT be won, and is completely off point (if I may be so blunt). And if you think you won, what will you have really achieved, except a momentary release of your anger. Even if this is a debate that your ex wants to engage in, take the higher ground. Be more mature and don't take the bait. Avoid furthering the cycle of escalation. I would suggest a simple response "Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings with me. I appreciate that writing your letter must have been difficult. I also recognize that you are putting forth the effort to heal and improve yourself, as I continue to do. Perhaps we can talk again at some point in the future." Remember focus on the war and not all the battles! Sometimes this requires us to act in a way that is counter-intuitive, and against our training. To bring this full-circle and back to S&Ds letter. I think anybody would love to receive a letter from the exgf that essentially says the she is considering a reconciliation, but just needs more time to improve herself so that she is ready to give 100%. What dumpee, who desires a reconciliation, would not want to receive such a letter? S&D, five months is a long time, no doubt about it. What is 5 to 8 months in the span of a lifelong relationship? Again, only you know your how much patience you have. This all comes back to IF YOU WANT IT and DO YOU BELIEVE. Yes, you were put through the wringer…kicked out of your home, staying with friends, etc. That sucked – and I feel for you, I really do! But I think you need to take this extra time to heal more and forgive her for acting the way she did, otherwise you will carry that animosity into your next relationship (either with her or your next gf). At the same time, you need to forgive yourself for acting in anyway that you may feel guilty - you cannot expect that she will do this for you. Continue to vent here, S&D.

S&D, First of all, thanks for sharing the letter. I think that it gives a good view into the mind of the female "dumper" and what is on her mind. Second, HOLY SCHNIKE's you weren't kidding when you site the parallels between your situation and mind. I heard my EXGF's voice saying the words as I read your letter. Because it struck home to me, I think that I have read it 10 times now. So here's my read: You have pegged your situation in your summaries and advice quite accurately. She needed more time to get herself and emotional/mental state in order before she put 100% into the reconciliation. As you have so aptly advised me, this is a VERY MATURE thing to do (but recognizing this doesn't make it any easier for us to be patient). She seems to have put a lot of thought into to what wrong in the relationship and taking the time to define/refine what she wants out of a long-term relationship – again a good thing. Furthermore she is improving herself (not being a "push-over") so that she is a stronger person. She still has a wall-up around her heart, and she needs time to heal more and let that wall come down (I have heard these words directly from my exgf). To attempt a reconciliation with you while that wall is up would just frustrate you further and likely lead to more heartache. She wanted to be strong when she returned to you. She says that you weren't taking her seriously…I think she means you weren't listening to her - that she needs more time to heal (you and I know that the littlest things that we don't view as pressure may be interpreted as pressure by the ex). You and I being very similar, I think we tried to control the reconciliation process…our plan and our terms. You and I can see it so easily - how to get from Point A to Point B. Well, I think that the mere existence of that plan, and having "all the answers" puts pressure on an exgf who hasn't yet figured out for herself what she wants out of the reconciled relationship. And a "take –charge" attitude probably put pressure on her. Furthermore, you and I take pride in expressing confidence that the relationship can work (to the exs), thinking that it might inspire them, but I can see how that might have the opposite effect, if expressed at the wrong time. When she says that you were "mean", I think she is referring to the letter in which you called her selfish. Overall, the fact that she sent this letter is positive. She wanted you to know that she wasn't intentionally yanking you around. And the substance of the letter leads me to believe that she took the potential reconciliation seriously and with a mature approach. Sure she waffled…but again (and this is easy for me to say to you, but difficult to for me to swallow for myself because I would rather just get pissed about her indecision) she is trying to redefine for herself what she wants out of your relationship. I am NOT saying that you weren't entitled to your frustration, and you weren't entitled to let her know how you feel…again you were honest and forthright. This is clearly an example of how the dumper and the dumpee move at different speeds towards the convergence point (an illustration that I think you coined and which I agree). I don't want to give you false hope here S&D… but I think there is still a nugget that can be worked into gold with this relationship in TIME and with an unapologetic yet conciliatory approach. If YOU still believe, and YOU still want this… continue to give her the space, and approach her again 1-2 months from now. Meanwhile, you know the drill. P.S. I feel like I am writing this post to myself…Are you sure that we weren't dating the same person?