a martyr-type torn between hate and compassion--need advice!

Dear Everyone,

I know this topic must have been brought up a million times but please help me with some advice if you will. I could use some personalized attention as I'm feeling pretty bad, drained and confused.

My b/f of 5 years dumped me to go off with someone else (who'd he already been seeing without my knowing) but said he wants to be friends. I can't ever do this unless I'm the one initiating the breakup (and not a dumping). I never have done it and somehow feel that it serves little purpose other than to perpetrate "partial" relationships, neither I nor the dumpee I feel can truly enter into a new relationship as a whole. If they feel they need to keep a friendship with someone I think it signals that something is missing in the other relationship. I mean a friendship to me is different from just being civil to each other after a split.

I can never move on unless I stop seeing and talking to the person I was with. Otherwise I am just using the ex to fill a gap in the new relationship or I feel (if I did not want the split) that I can't commit to the new relationship.

So, this guy wants to be friends and I reluctantly agreed just because at the time I was in such a state of shock. I had to be strong, couldn't break down like I wanted to because I have to hold together to work and make a living.

Now, he is calling me and leaving phone and email messages with offers of help, and just chitchat, and I get the feeling it is more for him than out of concern for me. I get the feeling he misses me. Which I guess is natural but he dumped me for someone else so shouldn't she be comforting him?

I have always felt compassion for him and stuck by him, even knowing it was not reciprocated on his part and there was a lot of shit to stick by him through. He is divorced, a rash type who is disatisfied with what he has made with his life so far and is always trying to improve but can't seem to deal with long processes and the drudgery usually needed for such endeavors. He also has a drinking problem.

So, these phones calls are the worst for me. They make me think he needs me and wants to talk to me (we always talked a lot) and so I once again want to respond to them. But at the same time, since I was dumped, they really hurt me. I think if I tell him to leave me alone he'll be hurt and believe it or not, I don't want to hurt him. I mean, it's just not in my nature to hurt. But I'm hurting and don't want to hurt, or maybe I'm just so used to it I feel I can take another blow to the heart and deal with it. You know, kind of a, chin up and "hit me with your best shot" kind of attitude. Then again I think also my hurt pride is getting in the way of things here, because deep down I'm afraid that if I tell him not to call because it hurts me he will stop. Then again, I think he'll stop because he doesn't want to hurt me but will be hurting himself and around and around it goes.

So you see, it seems like a merry-go-round here. I'm the one who was left and yet I'm STILL making excuses for him and worrying about hurting him, and worrying that he needs someone who knows him so well (me).

Can someone give me some advice here? I mean, after all, he says he's found The One, though I find that very hard to believe. He is drinking heavily and acting rash, which he does in his most confused times. So, I want to help him but at the same time I want to hate him.

I am really the one that needs help now it seems and this is getting me quite exasperated and drained. I am a real fighter, stick-with-it type, the one who sees someone/thing in need and when everyone else looks aside, I'm there to help. I feel it's my strength but in times like this I feel I'm only hurting myself.

what about I help you my friend Alright, if he dumped you why will you give him a chance. By the way are you sure you love him or its some kind of pity? And drinkin won't help, it's not like it's a bonus outta here. Why don't you take some time for you? My advice is with all you do for him and after what he have done you shouldn't help him out let this task to his new girlfriend.... im sorry if im rude but sometimes you have to be direct with people. You are a good person don't hurt yourself like that.

take care

Jeff l. Spiegel

OK dextro, you made me smile. Nothing like shooting from the hip, is it? You're right, I'm being a total walkover. I'm kind of sick of the Mr. Nice Guy(Gal) stuff myself. I don't know why I do it. Upbringing I guess. Habit. It gets good reviews. . I don't know.

Well, there was a lot of affection there on my part, at least there used to be. It got kind of hard to continue amidst the increasingly regular diet of less desirable behavior that was coming my way (I'm having to be real careful with my words here, otherwise I'll get all these *beeps* strewn accross my post.)

I think I will pass the baton to the new chick. See how long she sticks around. Perhaps what this guy needs is a few less good people in his world. That might shake him up enough for him to change his ways. Oh well, thanks for replying.

Hi cruising,

Identified with your posting in some way. I was also dumped, and my bf wants to keep contact. I am not really sure if it is too be civil, to be friends, out of pity, whatever. Point is, I am torn between what is best for me, and I feel I´m irresistably drawn to ( to keep in contact).

My boyfriend however does not have a drinking problem. He is in a "finding himself" time of his life, and is probably a bit crazy though. In any case, like I say in many postings, i´ve been reading tons of psycological material post breakup. To help me cope, but mostly to help me figure things out.

A friend lent me a book called "Women who love too much" It has many examples of women who are in love with an alcoholic. There is a behavious called dependency and counterdependency. The reason why you feel you must be there for him, has nothing to do with your mind. It has to do with deeper things withing your personality. Maybe things that have to do more with your family history, childhood, upbringing, traumas. Read the book. I guarantee you it will shed some light as to why you feel the way you feel, because there are examples of girls like you who can´t seem to let go even though they don´t know why. I wish you the best sweety and take care of YOU. YOU not him is the most important person in your life. Don´t sacrifice your today, your mental sanity and emotional confort for him or any situation. Nobody, not even God has the right to take your inner peace away from you. Best of luck!

Dear reborn,

Thanks so much for your kind reply. It really helps to hear from others who are in the same, or similar, boat. I know that book you mentioned. In fact, I think I may have read it, or read through it a bit in the bookstore, but I can't remember it well, and it looks like I still haven't learned my lesson so I'm going to get it and read with perhaps a mindset more conducive to helping myself change.

I think you're very right about something in my past that is making me get involved with the wrong people. At this point, I am not only hurting from what happened, I am hating myself for having allowed it to happen. I mean, it wasn't like there weren't warning signs this would happen. No, what am I saying? Similar things happened over and over again and yet I stayed with it, stood by him, always thinking I had to be there for him no matter what. I didn't matter. I could handle it, and on and on.

People talk about me being the most important thing but do you realize how alien a concept this is to me? I think I even say it to people though and in some situations I can do it but when it comes to certain situations, like this, I know that inside the statement is not registering at all. It's like I've been brainwashed and no doubt have been. My entire upbringing was about putting your own wishes, own desires, own wants and needs on the backburner, no, not even on the backburner, they never were even allowed. It was about thinking of others, never about yourself. I rebeled in many ways but I think this one area, when it came to coming accross needy people and me thinking I HAD to help them, has stopped me from having a healthy happy relationship and has done more to keep me from being happy than anything else.

I AM much better than before though. In fact, I know for certain that I am much different from when I met this guy. I think part of the reason he is going out of my life is that I was not giving him the codependent routine he wanted. I don't think he's healed though because of the way he is back drinking but I can't care. I MUSTN'T care. I have to only care from afar and in a clinical way, like a psychologist. At least they get paid for it!

Well, thanks again and I hope you too, reborn, find your way through your troubles. Reading lots of things is a very good thing. I'm doing the same (well, I've ordered the books and they're on the way). It angers me in a way that I have to do this, spend money and study and search for ways to cope and talk to friends and go through all this trying my best to continue to work, all because of him and my getting involved with him. I think this feeling may be a sign of true progress though. When I finally realize how much I am being hurt, held back, and disadvantaged by becoming involved with someone like him, I'm far less likely to continue it or to do it again in the future.

Here's to a new ball game!

Cruising,

So glad my advice helped you some. I am feeling like a rollercoaster inside. Really miss my ex, said he wasn´t in love with me anymore and has just plugged me off his life. Breakup was sudden, at least for me, so even after almost 3 months it still hurts lots. In any case, this site is given me the opportunity to feel good about me, because at least what I am going through and what I haved learned can be encouraging to some. So, thanks a lot for making me feel useful and wise , in these times it helps me so by bringing up my crushed, dumped ego a bit.

I am writing you again because in your last paragraph you said something about being a upset that you have to spend money on books and go through all this for him. Cruising, I know it feels like unecessary heartache and waste of money and time, but I think that instead of resenting him in any way you should thank him. This is an investment in you. If this situation has happened it is not because he has created it, there was somehting inside of you that he touched upon. Probably if it wouldn´t have been him, it would have been another man, another situation, but similar results. think about it. what do you think?

I think this stuff is like when someone has a cold. Have you noticed you don´t always end up getting sick but hanging around someone that is sick? This is because you are strong inside and your defenses are up. But when your defenses are down, are weak you get sick by being around that person. Same thing here, in your heart. You probably have to strengthen and get to know a part of you that needs of your attention better. Haven´t you heard that all the people that come into your life teach you a lesson? Well, he might have been one of those teachers to make you stronger, and better and more whole and confident in yourself as a human to be able to give and receive the love you deserve.

Hope I am not giving you a sermon or anything here. I do it with all my best intentions and caring. Best of luck cruising. And invest in you and your mental and emotional well being, it is the most valuable thing you have. No one can take that away from you, only you.

reborn,

Sorry for the delay in replying but I was unable to log in. Now that's fixed. Thank you again for writing. It is so nice to check my mail and find there's been a reply and such an interesting one at that, not only warm and encouraging but one that gets me thinking. Here you are, hurting bad and you're trying to make others (and me) feel better. Now that's class stuff!

Yes, I definitely think you're on to something when you think about a situation and ask, what was this supposed to be for, what was my lesson here? have I learned it? Those kind of questions I thought I was asking but maybe more often than not I'd think I hadn't found the answer or else I'd learn the wrong thing and these things would happen again and again.

But, I must say, I really don't like the idea of thanking this guy. I know what you're saying, don't get me wrong. But I'm going to change the rhetoric. I think it's important, especially in a situation like so many of us on this board are in, where we're emotionally bruised, beaten up, broken, yet somehow still yearning for people who have treated us wrong, to think too many nice things about those people. I think the gratitude should be directed to fate or a higher power for bringing this opportunity into our lives for our spiritual development. And then, if we've gotten that far, to be asking such questions, we should thank ourselves for taking advantage, or at least trying to take advantage of an opportunity to learn.

I think, again, you're very right when you said this situation I was/am in touched on something inside of me, something that needs to be strengthened. Yes, I can see how things have come up before, similar things, no, actually much worse. The stupid things I did when I was younger, the losers I got involved with. I would be embarrassed to show them to any of my friends now. But this last guy was the hardest test. I was kidding myself. He had me fooled, my family fooled. But you know, he may have had me fooled but there was so much I just was sick and tired of. Things that didn't jive. Things that were uncalled for. He knew I was very strong but he still tried to break me. I guess he got some sort of pleasure out of bringing down "strong prey." And this dumping and two-timing was his grand finale.

But really, I think what I needed to learn to do was to put my foot down and say, "This is unacceptable behavior!" Simply say it. Be outraged. I was making excuses, rationalizing anything he did. But deep down I wasn't happy. Not really. Denial, rationalizing. It had gotten so easy. I do it in other aspects of my life but there too I'm doing it a lot less. Like in my earlier post I think it's all about asking, "What do I want?!!" and really coming up with answers not whimpering "Oh, I don't know." and accepting that as an answer.

Well, this is getting very long. I better stop. Thanks again for your reply. I find your thoughts and advice pretty cool, deep and philosophical, wow! Anybody who would try to crush your ego is nuts I'd say. I do not think this fella who has hurt you understands his loss. But then, that's why people dump people. They are incapable of understanding just how valuable that person is. There is breaking up and there is dumping and incompatibility does not warrant dumping. But I wouldn't go thinking you're going to make him understand. I used to do that. Wasted effort. You know, you should think of yourself as a fine wine. An equisite wine that would have a connisseur in the throes of delight. But somehow, the label on your bottle gets switched and you are sold dirt cheap. You fall into the hands of a drunken wino who guzzles you from the paper bag, belches, throws the bottle in the alley and slumps down into a stupor in the filthy street.

Now, realize, this is not what really happened. You're still you, still here, not used up. You're still there and there are those who would be very happy to find you if they just knew where you were. Put your radar out for what you want, not what you had!

First up, I loved the wine bottle analogy since I love a nice bottle of wine now and again; however, since I am back in school I have had little money for spending on such things. Also, wine was more of a thing I did with my ex, get a nice bottle of wine with dinner, etc. But where I am they drink beer.... Anyway I am getting off topic.

To be blunt, your BF sounds like an ass. I mean you cannot blame someone for falling out of love with you because we are all human and it would be a bigger crime to stay and go on knowing that you were "not the one." Like how I put that in quotes? I do that because I have no friggin idea if it's really true or just a figment of my imagination that was planted by Hollywood.

BUt seriously, you should end communication between you and him. I broke up with my beautiful lady after 4 and half years together, which were the happiest years of my life....sigh... Anyway, we broke up because I was not ready to get married....I just was not ready. I'd think about it...look at rings, etc. But I was not ready to give her the ring..

Little background is that she is 5 years older than me and we disagree on politics and some religious issues, but other than that life is grand and we get together really well and share a lot in common. But I think I lost respect for with regard to the political issues, at least subconsciously, and it made me want to get out or told me that she wasn't the one. Don't know why I am telling you this except to say that I am in pain and I was the one who broke it off.

But back to your situation. I know what you are going through in terms of being abroad and not having your friends to talk to, etc. If you want to talk I am here.

I think the best thing for you to do with regards to your ex, which you probably have already done, is tell him that you both need to move on. It's what my ex said to me and I know she is right no matter how badly I want to talk to her. I want to be with but a question my friend asked me when I told him the exact same thing was, "what are you going to tell her?" It made me think because she is waiting for me to say I'm ready for marriage....and I am not....and thus I have my answer.

Hey from what I read you are a good person. This guy seems like he had some problems and things didn't work out which is all for the best for you. I honestly wouldn't pscho-analyze yourself over it though because you did nothing wrong and you'll hate me for saying this....but he didn't either. I say this because we are all human and as such, we are imperfect. I don't know about you, but this world sometimes makes sense to me and most of the time I feel like I cannot go on. Don't get me wrong I am strong person and I try and have achieved some things in my life in terms of work experience and traveling, but I am still scared of the future some times....where I am going, what I am going to do for work, will I make enough to support myself and family, etc., etc, etc.,..... the thing is we are all trying to find love and happiness whatever it is....but there is no roadmap....there's no contract that says if you do this you will get this...it's all a gamble and we are all learning what it is to be who we are as human beings...

Sorry if I seem out there...I am not. My main point is that life is not easy and I guess if we all knew who were supposed to be with to be happy - we would be with them. But it's not like that...it's trial and error. Sadly these trials hurt and often make us cry. The upside as my ex would say, "life wouldn't probably be that fun if we knew everything.." I also highly recommending seeing parenthood, specifically the scene where the grandma tells the story of going to the amusement park and about the choice between the rollercoaster and the merry-go-round. She said she loved the roller coaster because it made her feel fear and excitment at the same time, while the merry-go-round just went around and around...she liked the roller coaster. The moral of course to this story is that life is more exciting with the heart breaks...without them...we wouldn't feel the exhilaration of meeting someone new and going through (I hope) the whole process again and hopefully finding that special someone who completes you.....

By the way, I enjoy reading the way you write...very witty and enjoyable...don't know how else to say it. I can tell, for one thing, that you must be older than allot of the 18 yr. olds who get on her. For the record I am in my late 20s.

Take care of yourself,

Kinatra

Heh Kinatra,

Thanks for that great mile-long message. I printed it out at work and read it well but actually I didn't really read the very last part, with all those compliments till later. Is that how old people are around here? 18? Wow! For the record, I'm NOT in my late 20s. Glad you like my writing. What pressure!

Well, I liked the part in your message about you thinking my BF was an ass. That went over real well with me, smiles cracked and all. But later, with that, "he did nothing wrong" . . . hmm.. . don't know about that.

No, really, I understand about all the breaking up and finding each other and looking for "the one" (most definitely a Hollywood concoction) and maybe I didn't explain this in my post but he was carrying on with another woman for months and all along I thought we were really trying to work on things. I'd found out earlier and got it out of him, calmly said "if that's what you what" and was prepared to break up, but he came crawling back, literally, drunk like you wouldn't believe. Said he needed help and I said I was there for him. I always had been. But sometime soon after (I learn three months down the road) he said he got thinking, no, he preferred the other and went back. But this was done without clueing me in. And there was no "it's over between you and me." He was even more WITH me, you can say, though I felt there was this lightheartedness, a lack of his usual constantly rehashing things. I welcomed it though and didn't think anything of it. He was easier to be around. He was nice, almost considerate, light, almost optimistic. I really thought things were finally going well.

Then I find out when he leaves town, and then only by acting like a sleuth, with radar going full force, did I get it out of him that he'd been planning his life with this other person all along.

Now, I think that qualifies for a$$ho/e status, don't you?

In any case, I am moving on. I can't be held back any longer by this guy. It would have been nice if I could have known that a ways back and maybe been working on things with a little more substance then they turned out to have.

Heh, thanks again for writing. I wouldn't mind talking to you by email if you have an address. The answer/reply format is very good but a lot of it on this board is just about talking, isn't it?

Hi Cruisin,

I can also identify with your story. I was raised in an alcoholic home and I learned from both of my parents very unhealthy ideas about relationships. People can and do learn these things either from an abnormal home environment or from other life experiences. The important thing is to recognize what you may have learned, and try to change your beliefs about relationships. It is not easy to do. This I know.

A few years ago I was involved with a man who was bipolar. He was also very paranoid and narcissistic. Everything revolved around his problems, and his needs. I could not get him to do anything for me -- particularly if I asked for something. He claimed to love me, and at the time, I believed him and I thought I loved him too.

Now I recognize that we never really loved each other...we just pushed all the right buttons on one another. Neither one of us really knew what healthy love was, because neither one of us had ever experienced it. We had a lot of chemistry, and a lot of lust, but we did not have love. The truth is, I was obsessed with fixing him, and he was obsessed with breaking me. We were not in love - not even really friends. We had a very sick relationship.

When I first asked myself why I was involved with him, I could not come up with a reason. But now I realize there are plenty of good reasons. I was raised to believe that sacrifice is the only proof of love. My father demanded sacrifice and submission to his abuse to "prove that you love him". This was sick, but we believe what we are taught, and often repeat it. Also, my ex was very exciting. As Kinatra pointed out, some people love the rollercoaster. Until we decide that we really don't want any more drama in our lives, we will invite it in. And being with someone who loves you one day and hates you the next is very exciting indeed. When I focused on my ex's problems, I didn't have to work on my own. He was so much more messed up than I was, and that was the ultimate excuse not to see what I needed to deal with for myself. Lots of caretakers can deal with anything - so long as it isn't their own issues. Lastly, I realized that my ex had traits that I wanted to express, but was afraid to. He would act confidently, and assertively - he would go out and get what he wanted. Sometimes he did so in a negative way, but I learned that one reason I was so attracted to him was because he would reach for what he wanted, while I didn't have the courage to do that for myself. I realized I needed to find the courage. I'm still working on that one.

I know this is a long post, but I just want to say that now I'm involved with a really nice man who loves me...and I love him. Now I know what love is and that it's not obsession, or lust. I still feel a twinge now and then when I think of my ex - but I know what that twinge is about. It is about my past with my father, partly - and, it is partly about losing, about not getting what I wanted (him) and I don't know about you, but I hate to lose! He did a lot of wrong things - he stabbed me in the back and I trusted him and he was wrong. But that's on his conscience now (if he has one). If he doesn't have one, I have complete confidence that he's going to find his way back to being lonely over and over again throughout life, and that is punishment plenty. Even if I couldn't get him to love me or treat me with respect, I am the one who is learning to take responsibility for me...so I have come out ahead.

You will too.

amelie,

That was a beautiful post and I thank you. I would think that would take a lot of courage to do what you've done, to really take a hard look at your past relationships, with lovers and with your family and then to be open about them for the sake of helping someone else.

I am really touched by the responses I see and I've gotten on this board. So many of them, most all of them, really seem to come from the heart with a genuineness and a desire to help others, even though the people writing may be in the midst of their own pain now. And the people like yourself, who have been there but are now in good relationships, that is perhaps even harder to do, to make the effort to help out someone who's there now though you're not.

Thanks to reborn's post, I am looking into codependency through the book "Women Who Love Too Much." I don't have it yet but I have another book that is a compilation of letters from who people who read the book and wrote to the author. I see myself there so totally it's frightening. It's very enlightening. This last relationship was perhaps the worst because it went on so long and I was willing to perhaps sacrifice more and more to help him. There were, however, signs of my getting better. I was tired of it always being, him, him, him and I was starting to ask, "heh, what about me?" Oddly, or apparently not so, this is happening in all other areas of my life. I had always considered myself independent and assertive and I think I was but I made very little room for my needs. I put them on the backburner.

Recently, though I'd been getting to thinking, really thinking, just what did I want. I think this was showing up in many ways and is really behind this last guy finally leaving.

The relationship was going nowhere but I hung on hoping for change. Why was I willing to hope? I suppose that's the hitch. I suppose that's where I have to look. And yes, I think now that it's sick although when I was younger I was convinced self-sacrifice was the ultimate goal. I never thought of myself as a caretaker though. I don't think I'm particularly warm or mothering but I do have a lot of compassion. I guess what looks like tough love, if it hurts the person giving it, is also a form of addiction.

Being with needy guys, messed-up guys allowed me to ignore my own problems. I didn't see that as a problem though because, I WAS STRONG. My problems were nothing compared to his. I could deal with them later. That was why everything was logical. But it wasn't that I had no self-esteem and it's really why when I heard of that book, "Women Who Love Too Much" and the term codependency, years ago, I rebelled and said, "Oh, no, that's not for me." I'm very independent. I wouldn't let any guy take advantage of me. I was tough. I could handle anything. (This is what I thought). My attitude was always, "Sure, go ahead. Hit me with your best shot. I can handle it." The other thing, and you have to laugh, is I was thinking, "Well, it's not really about love. I'm just helping out where help is called for."

I couldn't understand how my past was tied to bad relationships. My parents, though not very warm, were loving, stable people. But the problem I'm only realizing now, was how we turn situations into what appear to be very different situations in our own lives down the road. My mother became ill with cancer when I was 14 and the next seven years, until her death, were living hell for me. But I was not allowed to consider them hell. Everything was about her. And no one asked how we kids were doing. Well, I guess we were doing pretty badly but we weren't even allowed to acknowledge that, to have it acknowledged. Those seven years were a constant clinging to every scrap of hope we could and then some and then some until the end and the end was not pretty. Up until the last moment I held on to hope. I never allowed anyone to see my suffering, ever. People must have thought I was the coldest person there was. Actually it was the complete opposite. I was so torn up inside, so utterly devastated that it makes me cry all these years later just thinking about it. But again, what was my pain compared to hers? You see, that was the hitch, the question that I then must have carried into all these other relationships with needy people, not guys who loved me but guys who were parasitical. You must realize that my mother's illness was some years ago and people didn't even mention the word "cancer." It was totally taboo. So not only the person suffering from it was not allowed any acknowledgement of their pain, but anyone else affected by the illness, such as the family of an alcoholic. And come to think of it, that's the way it was for alcoholics and their families too.

Well, this is getting too long. I just wanted to say that I'm finally realizing things that have been getting in the way for all these years.

And I suppose that just because there are a lot of books and help available these days it doesn't mean people are all OK and open and helping each other. It doesn't mean that things (wise words, doing right by people) are just naturally getting carried on down through the generations.

I suppose this is one area, relationships, life for that matter, where we, so to speak, HAVE to keep reinventing the wheel.

amelie, thanks again for your post. I'm glad you've come out ahead on this one. I have a feeling Im going to be close behind.

Hey Crusin,

Try sending me a private message (PM).....