believing in god

[AwdreeHpburn]

well said Penny - I like it.

 

I am Atheist. - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

I don't know where the word comes from or how it got its meaning - but dictionary . com lumps it in the same category as agnostic.

 

I'll admit I can't be sure, but I think the evidence we DO have - as a species - suggests that the scale is tipped in favour or no gods or spiritual creator, than the other way around.

 

I don't think anyone can ever be *SURE* either way, unless they want to cos it makes them feel better - which is totally fine but by just saying "I know it to be true" doesn't make it so.

[gfein347]

I'll admit I can't be sure, but I think the evidence we DO have - as a species - suggests that the scale is tipped in favour or no gods or spiritual creator, than the other way around.

 

I totally agree Awdree, and I like the metaphor you used. While the scale will always continue to fluctuate as we gain new information, no one will ever know enough about the universe to be able to proclaim or denounce with 100% the existence of a deity or supreme being. As Thomas Jefferson said, "I see no redeeming qualities in orthodox Christianity."

 

I think Jefferson meant that it is unwise to believe in something without taking into account all available information and the opinions of those who disagree. It upsets me equally when I meet a scientist who refuses to acknowledge the possibility of a god and when I meet an orthodox Christian (or any other religion for that matter) who refuses to acknowledge the possibility of no god.

[Juliana]

"I meet an orthodox Christian (or any other religion for that matter) who refuses to acknowledge the possibility of no god."

 

Would it upset you to meet someone who refuses to acknowledge the possibility of, say, no Europe?

 

We form our opinions based on our experience. The flat Earth society was finally disbanded -- within the last 25 years. People choose their beliefs for their own reasons.

 

And pennyroyal: What's interesting in your post, to me, is your assumption that it is naturally going to be the Christians who will be disrespecting those who don't believe. The religious are also judged by those who aren't.

 

On another note, what on Earth is an "orthodox Christian"?

[Follow Me]

Religions are manifested by man. If you want spirituality, go straight to the source. Every religion has one thing in common. They all pray. So get on your knees and pray about your questions. Your answers will be revealed in time. Try different churches until you find one that is comfortable to you. They will all try to sway you to their beliefs. I converted from a strong Irish Protestant family to Mormonism. I tell you, it doesn't sit well at all with my family, but I've never been happier. I also suggest to educate yourself on that religion. Historical aspects. For example, did you know that the Bible was actually created several hundred years after Christ died? An emperor named Constantine summoned all the major religious leaders of the time and they "edited" the Bible. There are books that aren't in it.

[Juliana]

"I also suggest to educate yourself on that religion. Historical aspects."

 

Excellent idea.

 

"For example, did you know that the Bible was actually created several hundred years after Christ died? An emperor named Constantine summoned all the major religious leaders of the time and they "edited" the Bible. There are books that aren't in it."

 

I assume when you refer to the Bible, you mean the New Testament. The Old Testament already existed prior to the birth of Christ, and was the religious text he referred to during his lifetime. The New Testament was not created but compiled from letters and sermons written within the 200 - 300 period after the death of Christ. Constantine actually had nothing to do with it, so I'm surprised to see him mentioned. You're getting the Council of Nicea mixed up with the process of forming the NT. Constantine once put in a "book order" to his bishop to get 50 copies of the Bible; he didn't actually decide what was going to be in the Bible, he just bought some.

 

Constantine was born in 272 AD. The earliest canonical list was from 170 AD and contains the four gospels, the letters of Paul, and a couple that were later tossed out for iffy doctrinal statements. The early church filtered through a number of sermons, letters, etc., to find things that were useful in instruction. I have a whole book of documents that weren't included in the NT; it's called Early Christian Fathers, by Cyril Richardson. This stuff isn't exactly hard to find.

 

Other books that weren't found to be useful because they contradicted common knowledge about Christ or they were, say, the only account out of 50 that held that particular view were the Gospel of Thomas, in which Jesus was gay, and the Gospel of Mary, in which he was married. It's not impossible to reconcile those two ideas, but since they contain within themselves no reference to each other, i.e. Thomas doesn't mention that Jesus had a wife, and Mary doesn't mention Christ's gay lover, they were just tossed (if I'm not mistaken, the bigger problem with Thomas was that Jesus didn't actually have a physical body in that one; he just seemed to. I personally don't like the Gospel of Mary because it's very anti-woman; women were apparently going to be "transformed" into men because that was supposedly the "holier" state. Yikes. Little cultural bias there). Incidentally, these two false gospels have gotten alot of attention, but in fact, it only matters whether Christ was married or gay if you think there is something morally wrong with the Son of God being gay or married. The actual problems in these gospels from a religious point of view isn't the "gay issue" or the "sex issue" it's the "gnostic issue," because gnosticism denied the physical existence of Christ. But I digress.

 

What is looked for is doctrinal and factual consistency. There are many other supposed gospels that were not included. This was during a time in history when it was common for writers to pretend to be someone they admired in order to put forward a point of view; there are philosophies that are supposedly written by Plato or Socrates that actually weren't -- the false gospels (and many that were included in the Bible) were written not with intent to deceive, necessarily, but out of a desire to promote a particular agenda. For example, if someone were to write a false gospel, they might sit down and imagine themselves having a conversation with an angel. They would then put their own words in the mouth of the angel, and promote that as truth. Whether or not it is true, spiritually, it certainly would not be true factually. That's another consideration -- some of the information in a false gospel may be useful or true, but that does not mean the whole document actually is inspired by God, and it doesn't get around the essential problem of the motivation for hiding the identity of the real writer in the first place. One may choose to write as Peter or as Paul to honour them; another because they want to claim the legitimacy those names commanded. There's a vast difference between those two motives. And although it was common academic practice in the time of Christ, modern writers would never do that, for the obvious reason that people simply do not trust writers who pretend to be someone they're not.

[omayra]

I believe in God

[lonestar_80]

yes some of it is relivent but do you really think every part of a holly book thats 2k old is true, no mow one dos so ya have to ask your self I'm i cherry picking with hind site thows parts that seem to fit.

 

I believe that every part of the Bible is true. I read the book a lot. Everyone has the right to do what they want to do. But on Judgement Day I hope that we all have made the right choices that will put us in good graces with God. We all are sinners and have fallen short the glory of God, thereforeeee it is important that we see the saving grace that Jesus gave to all whom look to him for salvation.

[tmp0620]

I believe that every part of the Bible is true. I read the book a lot. Everyone has the right to do what they want to do. But on Judgement Day I hope that we all have made the right choices that will put us in good graces with God. We all are sinners and have fallen short the glory of God, thereforeeee it is important that we see the saving grace that Jesus gave to all whom look to him for salvation.

 

How do you figure it's all true? Besides faith I mean.

[DropToZero]

How do you figure it's all true? Besides faith I mean.

 

 

Yeah, I don't agree with it, since I was forced to go to church and such all through my childhood up til I was 18, angered me that my parents made me even though probably around the age of 13-14, I could have made my own decision. I tried for years to see and believe what they seem to believe so blindly(faith)....I never got it, and probably never will.

 

As for judgement day, I know of the whole story, but really...like you said, all there really is...is faith. NO ONE knows the real answer, and NO ONE will ever know until the end of this world comes to(whether it be a real disaster, or just death)...and then, when that day comes...your questions may be answered...we'll all find out who was wrong and who was right.

[tmp0620]

Yeah, I don't agree with it, since I was forced to go to church and such all through my childhood up til I was 18, angered me that my parents made me even though probably around the age of 13-14, I could have made my own decision. I tried for years to see and believe what they seem to believe so blindly(faith)....I never got it, and probably never will.

 

As for judgement day, I know of the whole story, but really...like you said, all there really is...is faith. NO ONE knows the real answer, and NO ONE will ever know until the end of this world comes to...and then, when that day comes...your questions may be answered...we'll all find out who was wrong and who was right.

 

There are tons of religions in the world. The people who believe in those religions all believe equally. How could one be right and one wrong? It's all blind faith. If I write a bunch of parables on a piece of paper, and claimed that "god" told me to write these things no one would believe me... and yet...

[lonestar_80]

"For example, did you know that the Bible was actually created several hundred years after Christ died? An emperor named Constantine summoned all the major religious leaders of the time and they "edited" the Bible. There are books that aren't in it."

 

The Old Testament is the key to the New Testament. The Old Testament fortells the coming of Christ and what Jesus' life will be like. So, in order to see if the New Testament is true we can look onto the Old Testament about the prophecies of the coming Messiah (Jesus).

 

So the books that were "taken out" so to speak were false documents that did not line up with the Old Testament. Any person can write a false gospel. That is why it was so important to sort the real documents from the fake documents. In any other profession a council would be praised for sorting out the truth from the fake. However, in this case people want to accept any Tom's, Bob's, or Harry's account of a gospel. Jesus was not married and he was not gay. Even in the book of Acts it gives an account of people preaching the wrong message about Christ. It also talks about how more advanced teachers had to correct some of the incorrect facts given out about Jesus. So we now just from the account in Acts that false documents were printed and false information was given out.

The stands alone and its truth will be everlasting.

[lonestar_80]

How do you figure it's all true? Besides faith I mean.

 

It takes a lot of soul searching and research. For the past three years I have studied the Bible a lot. I have learned things that I never thought about before. It just all makes so much sense to me. I do not see how anyone could not believe in God after looking at all of his creations. I just do not think that everything that exsists is made by chance. The Bible has become so precious to me. It tells the beginning from the end.

[tmp0620]

Who's to say that Jesus wasn't gay or married? The old testament doesn't say that does it? By the way... who's to say that the old testament isn't a false document? How do you know which part was and was not written by God?

[tmp0620]

It takes a lot of soul searching and research. For the past three years I have studied the Bible a lot. I have learned things that I never thought about before. It just all makes so much sense to me. I do not see how anyone could not believe in God after looking at all of his creations. I just do not think that everything that exsists is made by chance. The Bible has become so precious to me. It tells the beginning from the end.

 

So do you believe in evolution?

[lonestar_80]

Who's to say that Jesus wasn't gay or married? The old testament doesn't say that does it? By the way... who's to say that the old testament isn't a false document? How do you know which part was and was not written by God?

 

 

Well The Old Testament says that homsexuality is a sin against God. So that would be a contradiction to what God stands for. The act of homsexuality is a sin. Since Jesus was the only perfect being to ever exsist he could not be gay. In the Old Testament The Jews had to sacrifice a perfect lamb or sheep to God without spot or blemish. God called Jesus the lamb of God. So, Jesus was without sin. He was not a sinner. In order for him to pay the price for our sins Jesus has to be sinless.

 

Jesus was not married b/c the prophcies from the Old Testament tells us that the Messiah was not married and had no (BIO)children of his own. He only had spiritual children, this is listed in Isaiah 53 for example.

 

The Old Testament pretty much holds its weight. I went to a museum that displayed the Dead Sea Scrolls and it was interesting to see the Old Testament Scrolls. Based on carbon dating the scrolls are authentic to the time before Christ. In addition, many of the stories have historical data to back up their claims. I think that there is more that is true about the Old Testament rather than things that are unknown. I believe that the OT is all inspired by God. Most of the accounts in the book came to pass. For example, the OT fortells of the falling of the Babylonian, Greek, and Roman Empires and that all came to pass. It fortold of the coming Messiah (Book of Daniel 9-12), who would be born of a virgin, die for the sins of mankind, he would be a prince of peace, etc.

[lonestar_80]

So do you believe in evolution?

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by evolution.

 

I do believe that creatures adapt to their environments.

 

However, I do not believe that we started out as sludge in the sea that evolved into various species.

 

I believe in the account in Genesis. That God created everything as it should be on the sixth day of creation.

[tmp0620]

Which empire in the world has not fallen over time?

[tmp0620]

I guess it depends on what you mean by evolution.

 

I do believe that creatures adapt to their environments.

 

However, I do not believe that we started out as sludge in the sea that evolved into various species.

 

I believe in the account in Genesis. That God created everything as it should be on the sixth day of creation.

 

Do you believe in genes?

 

disclaimer: I enjoy these kinds of discussions and I'm not trying to offend anyone at all in the slightest. Know religion can be a touchy subject though.

[Daddy Bear]

As an agnostic, one realizes that the existence of deities cannot be disproved. thereforeeee, I fire off a little prayer of thanks now and then... because someone MIGHT have had a hand in my good fortune and someone MIGHT be listening. I think it's only polite for me to take a moment to do so.

 

As a Taoist, I don't care if there's a God or not. Want me to go to church with you? Sure, whatever. Never mind that Jesus said never to build a church in his name; it's all good.

 

As a pragamatic thinker, I recognize there there is much collective wisdom to be found in the Bible, although I have studied it for too long with a truly open mind to believe in its divinity or infallibility.

 

My personal conclusion is that the Old Testament is no more and no less the story of an ancient people and their laws and customs, and the New Testament is the blending of many things, notably the Mithras cult and the life of a mystic genius with a brain like Einstein's and a heart like Gandhi's, who may have gotten a little taste of Eastern philosophy, found it to be useful in his world, and tried to explain his thoughts to the dogmatic and superstitious yokels around him. Worship Jesus? No, I don't think that's what he would have wanted. He never made his friends bow down to him.

 

So, how do I define myself?

 

I don't.

[lonestar_80]

Which empire in the world has not fallen over time?

 

It is really not that simple. The Book of Daniel gives detailed information about the accounts of that time and the rulers of the Empires that would fall before the events ever took place. The carbon copy dating proves that the documents were written over 500 years before the events took place.

[tmp0620]

Sure you do... you said you're an agnostic

 

I consider myself agnostic as well. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's true, but I like to question everything.

[lonestar_80]

Do you believe in genes?

 

God made genes. I think that it is unwise for people to look at genes and not see their complexities. It is clear to see that they are the result of an intelligent designer. They are derived from a process that is not random or contrived. God is the intelligence behind all of the science discoveries. He is the creator of genes. Our bodies, the universe, and this exsistance that we live in is TOO complex to not have an intelligent designer backing it all up.

[tmp0620]

It is really not that simple. The Book of Daniel gives detailed information about the accounts of that time and the rulers of the Empires that would fall before the events ever took place. The carbon copy dating proves that the documents were written over 500 years before the events took place.

 

It seems that others believe that the documents aren't that old.

[tmp0620]

God made genes. I think that it is unwise for people to look at genes and not see their complexities. It is clear to see that they are the result of an intelligent designer. They are derived from a process that is not random or contrived. God is the intelligence behind all of the science discoveries. He is the creator of genes. Our bodies, the universe, and this exsistance that we live in is TOO complex to not have an intelligent designer backing it all up.

 

If the world is 4.5 billion years old wouldn't that be enough time for nature to create the complexities that exist in the world today?

[Daddy Bear]

Sure you do... you said you're an agnostic

 

I consider myself agnostic as well. I'm not going to pretend like I know what's true, but I like to question everything.

Actually, I didn't say I was an agnostic. Check it again. However, I WAS one until I realized that I'd feel better sending a note of thanks to a house where someone who MIGHT have helped me MIGHT live than to keep my gratitude passive and secret. Some might argue that makes me an 'agnostic deist', and they're welcome to call me whatever they want, but I might decide to think atheistically tomorrow and throw all my weight behind Satan the day after that, and I won't be pinned down or pigeonholed in my own mind.