What is "FAIR" how do you split the stuff

[mike_chppr]

I'm fairly certain the house will be at a loss of around 20K right now. That is good idea about the down deposit, it came out of the joint account. When I think of buying her out I'm also thinking of the equity we have paid for in the last 18 months. on a 30 year fixed about 85% to 90% of the initial loan is interest. So we have paid down some principle. And we are a few months ahead in our payments. Since my wife paid when she got the bill we got a few months ahead as they just started sending the bill earlier and earlier. So not only the deposit for things like closing costs need to be split, but also the equity on the loan that we have. If the house is at a loss, determining what is fair in a buyout is a tough proposition. If we both wanted out and it was a 20K loss, we would each owe 10K. If it is a loss and I take on the 20K risk by not making her pay me the 10K of the loss is that equivalent to buying her out.

 

Something else I thought about. I have a slew of annual leave that I could "liquidate" does that count as joint property? Should I disclose what this could amount to? I want to be as fair and open as possible, what is she getting that can be considered half. I feel that she does deserve what is fair.

 

The BF thing. I talked with my therapist about it today. I told her that my spidy sense was going nuts and that I feel like I have been cheated on, but I want to believe that she is telling me the truth. I told her about wanting to pry to find out. She said it probably would not be healthy for her to tell me or even for me to try and find out at this point if ever at all. To keep it in the back of our minds that even though the courts say we are married, in both of our heads we aren't anymore. I don't wear my wedding ring on my left hand anymore (I moved it to the right). She doesn't wear hers at all.

 

My perspective is that I love her like a sister. we have a history, we arn't just going to be poof! not a part of my life anymore. In some ways we can be more open than we have ever been with each other as the pressure to stick it out is gone. Like I can say good for you that she got to ride a motorcycle for the first time last weekend.

 

All that being said I also need to realize that we are both human. The protectiveness of each other is not going to go away overnight. Part of me dealing with Iraq is realizing the thing I am most ashamed of. I went there with the idea that I am not going to do anything that I will regret for the rest of my life, but when the moment of truth came, I failed myself and our country. Generally I upheld the values and am a good person, but to ignore the fact that I am human and incapable of heinous acts is really lying.

 

Especially since 9/11 I think one of the lessons are we are all human. We are all capable of the heinous acts that we hear on TV and the US media won't show us. But we are also capable to love others so much that we are willing to loose our own life to save the lives of one or many more than ourselves. Our emotions are still reptilian in a sense. And once they are short circuited there is no telling!

 

So keeping that in mind, I need to really ensure that in my deep seated conscious I love her as a sister. because if I were to find out that hanky panky were going on, I don't need to react as if we were Married. The future is the future. I'm afraid right now. There is lots to loose, but there is an amazing oportunity to gain. Yea I try to right things down. I have a piece of paper on my desk that has 2-word statements written, that elicit a comforting response and an ability to self reflect.

 

I'm working on the why? for the compulsive lies, what do I get out of it. I told a guy a 45 minute whopper today on the drive into DC. For those of you not big on city life, commuting is horrible, so there are HOV High Occupancy Vehicle Lanes. Where I am at meaning you have to have 3 people in a car to use them. So I pull up to a parking lot and say where I'm going in DC and get two people (total strangers) to get in my car so that I can use the lanes. I give them a ride for free and I get to not stay in very horrible traffic for a few hours. It is called slugging here in DC, but it is called something else in San Francisco. Anyway on the drive in this morning I told a total stranger a 45 minute whopper? What good is there in telling someone a story like that that I don't even know and will probably never see again. It feeds some sort of need, but what is it. Is it a need for attention, but there are tons of different types of attention. I think my therapist thinks it may feed a need to be "remembered" so I'm dwelling this week on what it takes to be remembered, but how the need is not fulfilled unless my true self is expressed. I know this is off topic, but I don't want you guys to think I sit in therapy and talk about Oh my evil wife how could she do this to me!....

 

I'm going to therapy not just to get through this turbulent time in my life I'm going for a laundry list of reasons...

 

Figure out who Mike Chppr really is

Turn off my "Spidy Sense"

Self reflect on where I have come from where I'm at and where I'm going

Recognize inherent good

Recognize inherent evil

Recognize inherent sadness

Recognize inherent happiness

Not live vicariously through others and turn of my facades of Perverse Sexuality (Military Lies) Tough Guy (Work Lies) Manly Man(Home Lies) ultimately I want to be known for who I am, and I can't be known for that until I discover myself for myself.

 

I'm going to therapy, because I'm genuinely concerned about my mental health and I don't want to be the Vet asking for money at a streetlight in 5 to 10 years. I do want to be happy and fulfilled and I don't think that is too much to ask out of life.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

Best of luck Mike... it sounds like you are moving forward toward making your life better. it is good that you are working with a counselor to help you sort through your issues, helps clear the cobwebs and discover how to best live your life.

 

btw, unused work leave is not part of a divorce settlement... if you took the money as cash before the divorce and put it into a joint account it could be considered a joint asset, but otherwise does not factor in...

[mike_chppr]

For those of you following along what is fair regarding the house, the market has soured miserably. Houses are staying on the market for 6 months or longer. The expectation is that it will pick up in Spring and there will be a huge bump in 18 to 36 months. A supply demand issue that is coming up in the area. So what is fair. They resonably believe our house purchased at 350K with a $2300/mo mortgage is now worth over 400K, We have put about 20K worth of work into the place. So we could now be sitting on 30K in profit, but houses are sitting on the market for 180 days right now. So the real estate agent walked through today and came up with a laundry list of things we need to do to sell this house. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. So with that in mind, does she buy me out for 15K and she takes the mortgage, do I buy her out for 15K and I take the morgage, Do we keep it in both of our names. What kind of refinanced mortgage can we get and how much will it save us? These are the questions I put out there, and the response.... If I go with a 5 year ARM it will only reduce the payment down to 1900/mo. the Fair rental value of the home is around 1600 to 1800/mo. So if I have my wife rent from me lets say she does 800/mo and she finds a roomate to do 800/mo. This means I would have to cough up 300/mo to cover the new mortgage. or I could cough up 700/mo to maintain the current one. If we do that we keep the house in both of our names. Refinancing is going to eat 16K of the 30K we are up. I think in the end it would be much easier to sell in the Spring or summer, even though we might not be able to get the most bang for our buck we could get out with our shirts intact. So If I pay 700/mo to maintain a house that I don't live in over a period of 18/months I'm putting in 12,600 where the 400/mo is 7,200. However on the 7,200 I have to pay 16K in total closing costs up front. So we are locked into the concept that I can rent or have my ex stay in the house. Fair rental value is 1600/mo. If I did refinance into my name lets say 8K of the closing costs get split 50/50. Hence the 7,200 is really 15,200 out of pocket. Still 3K less than the 12,600, where we work out a deal to manage the house together. If this is the case we should be able to get more in the long run if we hammer out a Joint Partnership type agreement. Hence I have to figure out a way to pay my part of the joint loan. The rent on my apartment is 1300/mo, so If we do some kind of joint thing, Lets add that into the picture, 2300+1300 is 3,600/mo. Would mean 1200/mo three ways. Well, we could get someone in for 800/mo so that leaves 400 to split between the two of us. i.e. she pays 1600/mo and I pay 1600/mo or 300/mo to the house. That is probably fair if we are going to split the profits 50/50 when we sell. Truth is there is no way she can afford 1600 a month, but she could get a third roomate for the third bedroom. Splitting her 1600/mo into half. meaning all three residents pay 800/mo and I send in two hundred dollars a month. We use this arrangement to hold us over for a year until we can feasibly sell and also finish with the minor upgrades that the real estate agent talked about today.

 

I know this is a lot of math for most people, but I'm going to have to explain this to my wife/ex. I can't wait to introduce her as my wife-ex think of it rhyming with spandex. This will be something that will make others laugh, but not be taken too seriously by the two of us. I've called her my wify most of the time we have been married. OK back to the point, It sounds like we can hammer this out together, Yes, she could walk and I could get screwed. But I think the numbers kind of keep things in perspective as to what kinds of losses we are looking at. Even if I come up with some way to cover the 700/mo even though I'm not living there, it would still be worthwhile as the closing costs really have a huge impact.

 

Input from others who have hammered things like these out would be appreciated.

[BeStrongBeHappy]

mike...

 

putting in $16K now for refinancing to sell in 18 months does not make sense to me... better to just put the house on the market and sell and take a little loss...

 

the $16K for refinancing is as if you were adding another $1K to the mortgage every month... so you bring the payment down to $1900 a month by refinancing, but up it to $2900 a month by factoring in the money it costs to refinance...

 

any house will sell anytime and quickly if the price is right... priced slightly below market value... what did the realtor say about the market value right now? realtors also have a wish list to bring a house to perfection, and you don't have to do that if you account for it in the price.

 

it is also not all that easy to find renters who will pay that much for a room in a house... and to find 2 of them may not be that easy... so i would anticipate that those amounts would go unpaid for a lot of months while looking for a renter... and when you rent, you have to sign a lease with them, so cannot sell the house until their lease expires...

 

my suggestion would be that you throw yourself into completing the realtors list to fix up the house for sale and target end of Feb./March to hit the spring season running...

 

sometimes it just doesn't pay in the long run to keep sinking more money into something because of the opportunity cost... i.e., rather than putting MORE money into a house that needs to be sold anyway as part of a divorce, find a way to cut loose from that house quickly and put the money that would have gone into it into a NEW place for each of you...

[mike_chppr]

OK, well I constructed this fancy spreadsheet discussing how we can split the payments. I tried to create a weight using proportions like 75% of the tennants rent goes to the "live-in" landlord. And then we take the mortgage minus rent to come up with a combination that she can afford. Then we use what we pay into the house plus the renters proportional contribution to cover until we can sell. Sounds fair in reality, but how do you apply it. How do you come up with what is fair. Quality of life can be placed into the situation, like what is the difference in the value if she moves out or if I move out.

 

Well anyway I came up with another option. That popped into my head. So our mortgage is 2420 a month. She needs to pay 900/mo to maintain her finances which is resonable as she can get an apartment in the area for 700/mo so 900 is stretching it. I'm paying 1300/month in my apartment. I can contribute a number as high as 400/mo towards the house. but lets say I don't contribute anything. We have 30K in stocks between the two of us.

 

2420-900=1520/mo remaining. The Real Estate agent believes we are solidly in the 400K catagory. Our house is "Move In ready with a small laundry list of things to add to the picture. I walked away with the impression that he felt like we could get 400K in the spring. But I want to create a safety net and say that we cannot sell until next October, hence 10 months under my apartment situation. I figure money to put into the house to truly make it a "model home" will be around 2K. 10 months times 1520 plus 2K is $17,200. Which is just 1,000 over the closing costs to refinance into my name. So we could go to the bank to get a short term loan and use our 30K in stocks as colateral. Selling the house by early june.... is six months. So using the 2K in upgrades plus the supplemental mortgage from the loan is 11,200 in loan costs. We figure that we have put 20K in upgrades to the home already, so That makes our total investment 370K. Add the 2K and we are up to 372K. Lets say we sell for 400K on the dot. Then this leaves us 28K pay back the 11K loan leaves us 17K. Subtract 2% for the realtor fee and we pull out an additional 8K. This leaves us at 9K to split between the two of us 50/50. For the additional time past May is only 6K. so that would leave 3K between the two of us to split 50/50. We walk away with our shirts if we can sell within the next year. As far as the loan I can either sell some of our stocks, borrow against my government TSP program at a 4% interest rate, Go to a bank and see what they have to offer or ask family to spot us interest free to get over the hump.

 

This sounds like a plan. We argued over so much last night about my complicated equation and how I "chose" to move out of the house and that commute shoudn't be incorporated and that she doesn't know if she can find a renter for just a few months or if she is even comfortable having someone in the house that she doesn't know plus whomever they may bring over. But anyway.

 

I've come up with a plan to work together, get us over the financial hump and come out with our shirts if not a profit.

 

SO.... does anyone see any holes in my plan?

 

Does it seem fair, if not slightly in favor of my wife, being that she has access to all the nicities of living in a home for $900/mo? Plus her stuff after we move mine out is basically the minimalist model home. I come over on weekends to work on the upgrades and we get this thing rolling. Yes we probably could get more in 18 months, but at what price to our sanity. The floater loan is less than one we could take to refinance.

 

This is really stressful and I just want to walk away.

[sonjam]

I know this is very stressfull for you, but do yourself a favour, don't walk away. In a year or two from now, I don't want you to look back and feel cheated, out of all your things, and your wife! It happened to me 10 years ago. He cheated 3 x but eventually I could not stand the fighting, I walked out with the clothes on my back, and the bed.....!!!

[BeStrongBeHappy]

The fundamental point is you guys are getting divorced, so whatever uncomplicates your lives the quickest works the best... you also can't count every 'what if' in a complicated house scenario going your way, i.e., she may not be able to find renters, especially for a shorter term or the house may not sell for what you think it will so the longer you carry it, the more money you are throwing down a hole since you won't get it back at time of sale.

 

also, none of your plans should incorporate incurring MORE debt together jointly since you are getting divorced... even short term, i can see why she is balking at that... you're no longer a couple, and are just settling property and trying to untangle your association, so any solutions need to involve lowering joint debt rather than raising it, and splitting all joing assets as soon as possible, including selling the house quickly.

 

my suggestion would be to put the house on the market ASAP... spring is not far away and there are some serious buyers out in winter if the price is right... if your house is in good shape already, an attractive price (slightly below market) will attract more buyers than model home condition. If you put it on the market in Jan. you should have a contract no later than April and closing by end of May, if you price the house right.

 

So then you only need to carry the $2400 mortgage 5 months... if she pays $900/mo rent on it that leaves $1500... $1500x5=$7500 shortage. Sell enough stocks or to pay the $1500 you are short each month while carrying the house, or get her parents to pick up half the difference to help her out...

 

then you take the money from the sale, subtract the $7500 or whatever it cost to carry it until the sale, and split the proceeds of the sale down the middle... that will give you as much money or more than your scenario, and less complicated and dependent on outside factors like renters

 

refinancing the house in your name just doesn't make sense unless you personally want to keep the house after the divorce, and you are willing to give something up to her for that privilege...

 

the bottom line is that usually in a divorce there are assets that do get liquidated for less than you *might* get for them if you held them into the future, but the timing of the divorce requires the assets to be split in tandem with the divorce... sometimes you just have to take a minor hit for them, but you get peace of mind and a new life started, rather than continuing connections that neither one of you wants, nor it is healthy for you mentally, best to just move on, even if it costs several thousand to do so...

[glegend]

I have a suggestion on how to split your belongings. My uncle is currently going through a divorce and its coming to the point where my uncle and aunt have to split their belongings. So what they are going to split their belonging this way.

 

- The items from the wedding shower are going to get split by family. So whatever presents were from my uncle side of the family my uncle will get, whatever my aunts family gave her she will keep.

- They plan to give the house to my cousins

- Items that my uncle bought he will keep and vice versa for my aunt

- Everything else they will just take whatever they want

[mike_chppr]

glegend,

 

This is great if your families come from similar financial backgrounds and have an even number of children to support, but in our case it isn't. I have a mother tetering on bankruptsy on a 30K loan on a house, her family, is the polar opposite. So her family, as she is an only child has given us tons.

 

Items from the wedding, We don't know what side of the family gave us what. It is all a wash really.

 

The house is owned by the bank, we can't give that to anyone.

 

There are some simple things like my laptop and her laptop, but what about the vaccuum cleaner. We have the dyson, the king of all vaccuums and if she keeps it I have to spend $400+ to get another one and visa versa. Once you go dyson you never ever go back.

 

It would be nice if everyone could take whatever they want, but it isn't that simple. What happens when both of you want the same thing.

 

Marriage has been about blending things together. I don't own a dresser set because she does, and she has a lot of fancy clothes because I don't own a dresser set. I own a fancy rifle because I didn't have to purchase a dresser set.

 

I think I have covered the combinations. We were very give and take, 2 months before this blew over, we ordered a custom made couch costing 6K. How do you take that into account. It may sound fair to say whoever keeps it pays for it, but that isn't really fair to her as she had waited patiently for me to come home from Iraq and saved up money so that it could be purchased.

 

This isn't easy, I wish it were, but it isn't decisions are hurtful sometimes and the worst of our "button pushing" can come out. I can do name calling and she can imply that I'm a worthless and inept lover. But where does that get us. we have to make decisions and we have to work together. She is my best friend, my companion. This hurts, all the way to my core this hurts. But I'm moving on and so is she.

 

The most important thing is that we feel the feelings, that we reflect at how we have played a part and our pasts have played a part and learn more about ourselves from the situation. If I play the blame game, what type of perspective am I gaining to figure out who I truly am.

 

Still hurting,

Mike_chppr

[Dako]

Mike,

 

I'm setting up housekeeping after a divorce and all the stuff is secondary to my outlook for the future. I go to my ex's and see things I'd like to have, but they remind me of her. There's a $750 statue near the fireplace I'd love, but we bought it together, so it'd always be about her. Keeping score after a while is tedious. I reached a point where I question if I'm sticking up for myself or just not letting go.

 

One touchyfeely approach, unhampered by $ value:

Let her keep anything that may stop working, reminds you of her or her stinking mother. Let her have anything you just gave in on buying. Let her have anything that requires maintenance.

 

Take everything you had when you met her. Those things will help you get back to your old self.

 

My Panasonic vac is fine.

[mike_chppr]

I don't think I will totally eradicate her from my life, despite what I've done to her and she has done to me, she is still my best friend. I went to the mall today to purchase her Christmas gift. I got her some break resistent beverage glasses as she has always been clutzy and breaks dishes on accident more than the average person. She will appreciate that. I also got her an ipod thing to tune her ipod into her car sterio. She has Sirious Radio and will be cancelling to save money. Getting something for her dad is driving me nuts. he likes golf, well I like geek things, he knows no more what to get me than I him. I've got the perfect item for her Mom. It is a framed four leaf clover from Redenvelope. I thought I should get them for the wifex, but I think what I got her is more appropriate.

 

I can relate to what you say about getting back to my old self, but I'm not sure I want that. I would totally love to create a sheek pad, my own little "ME" apartment. Before we met, all I had was ratty college stuff, pinch a pinny raid the dumpsters after graduation kind of stuff. Now I have an income. Hmmmmmm Target or Arhaus. But a big part of decorating is figuring out who I am. Our kitchen table (16th century Russian Bread Table). Yes, it will remind me of her, and that is OK. I take the good memories with the bad. I realize that she is only human and so am I. I'm still hurting and that is OK too. Like I said she isn't going to up and vanish. We want the best for each other, and she will probably help me pack.

 

I see the psychotic tendency of her to keep score moreso than me. I agree with the appliance thing. If it can break, she can have it. This way as I develop my style. I'm starting from scratch. Although it might be nice just to pack up stuff I'm taking to my place and deliver it to Goodwill for the tax break in 2007. It is one more step, but would that be devious? If she thought it was going to my place and doesn't end up there... I'm going to have to get rid of some things. And I'm starting with a couch set and a fouton with a Kitchen Table. I was walking around Macy's today and really thinking about my style, what is it. I'm attracted to that asiany fung suey look, but I also like the rugged Punky look as well think (Hot Topic/Urban Outfitters). I'm thinking of becoming friends with the gay guy at work to help me tie things in. I don't want to make expensive purchases only to throw them out a year or two later. But I don't want to live out of boxes either.

 

One thing I'm getting for sure. is one of those chalkboard like dry erase boards. So I can jot down things that I am working on in my head and have a place to write it. This helped in graduate school as I had one in my office. The only thing is do they come in black with like different colored markers that are easily erasable. A huge white one might really seem classroomish. I might just hire an interior decorator to tie in my stuff. My wifex has an idea of what she thinks my pad will look like? I told her not to give me any hints, as I want to discover what my style really is! She is cool with that.

 

I'm looking into the Massage Therapy thing with NMTI, National Massage Therapy Institute. It seems like a huge time drag for 7 months. They either have full time or part time. Full is like M-R 5:15 to 10:30 for 28 weeks. With a full time job, a dog, etc.. that will be huge. But I think it is an important part of me discovering who I am. I've had fleeting fantasies of me quitting my carrer as a Statistician to become a massage therapist, Having discussions with all kinds of people about what my carrer used to be. Fat people, skinny people, old, young, gender reassignment, gay, straight, different races. Of how once I was afraid to even touch people and how I'll have these "healing" hands. Total fantasy I know, but I think.... How do you know if you don't try? There is a lot on my plate, but I can use up some annual leave, work 30hour weeks, Hire a dog walker and still pay for the course. It is a very expensive way to say get rid of your fear of touching people, but at what cost, to never really knowing. I'm touring the facility on Tuesday to see if this is what I imagined it would be. Who knows, they seem to be pressuring me to get into the system. Maybe they know that people don't finish. 28 weeks is a long haul. The cost is a barrier. The Part time option is like Friday Evening, Saturday Sunday for 12 months. With being in the Reserves that isn't going to work out so well. Even the 28 weeks would be pushing it. I would like to start after we sell the house. But it seems like they will have an angle to get you in the system. It is in the plans, but it is mine. I've also thought of doing one of those hikes as a counselor with inner city kids or even poor children in general. That is how I grew up and I would love to let kids know that life doesn't have to always be that way. I've come a long way in my self discovery and if I could share my experiences with someone young so that maybe they can circumvent that part, I think I could really make a difference. But also. Instead of lying about stories, what about doing them. Skydiving, Hiking, Adventure Tours. Things like my bungee jumping trip in New Zealand would be a great story to tell. (hasn't happened yet). I have some great stories about Iraq, but there is more to life than the sandbox. Not everyone in a third world country is "out to get'cha!"

 

So I really need to discover myself. and the question is how much different will I be in 18 or 24 months from now in my tastes than I am now. I've spent the last 5 years defining myself through a marriage. I've grown up a lot, but I am still not myself. I keep reflecting on my dad and my mom. My dad seemed genuinely happy. He was true to himself (living a pseudo-gay lifestyle). My mother has played the victim and she is trying to pump me for information to play the victim through my failed marriage. My marriage was not a failure, yes it is ending in divorce, but when we married, I truly believe it was what we needed from each other at the time. Iraq took the rose colored glasses off of both of us, I can empathize with her hurts about me lying. I only lied twice last week (in life in general). And sofar once this week. Others look at the situation like, oh man... this is the time you needed her the most and she is abandoning you. It does feel like that sometimes, but which is worse death from a thousand cuts (I have given her this by lying our whole relationship) Or two slicing stabs within 60 days after coming home from 16 months away including a 12 month tour in Iraq she says "I'm not in love with you anymore and don't know that I can be anymore." followed up a month later with "If there was a grain of sand in my body that thought this would work I would try, but there isn't, and I want a Divorce!"

 

So I guess the thing I'm taking from all this is If I phrase this in my head like...

 

"Within 60 days of me coming back from Iraq my wife left me!" I'm playing the victim and blaming her for leaving me. I'm working to mentally phrase it in my head like...

 

"Isn't it amazing, like a Nationwide Comercial. Within 60 days of coming back from Iraq I was able to convince the woman I love that she wasn't in love with me.... Life Comes At You Fast... Nationwide is on your Side!"

 

The thing is the above statement is healthier, but it moves the blame from her to Iraq. So my marriage crumbled because I went to Iraq.

 

We mutually self distructed our marriage by playing the victim / punisher. I lied to my friend/girlfriend/fiance'/wife in uncountable ways about my past and present. I witheld from her and she witheld from me. By me lying I was never able to be myself with her, and by her not being enabled to know the true me, she was never allowed to share her true self with me. In a sense we both lied to each other even though mine was verbalized. She is not "The Evil witch of the World" and she is not the "Blissful Love from all Eternity" She is both. I love her and I hate her, I see the Evil with the Love, and she as well as I are only humans who did the best that we could do under the circumstances of each others psychotic tendencies. We gave it a shot, and carried each other along the path to be better people in the long run. Was it a mistake to get married? Absolutely Not. Is it a mistake to get a Divorce? Only time will tell, and right now it is looking like it is not a mistake.

 

That is the truth, If I hold onto who I am and really look at it, that doesn't place blame on her or me. I think now is to feel the pain in this. I think in some sense I may have repressed the pain a little too much. I think I need to back away and feel some more of it. And maybe that will happen when I actually move out.

 

She is a special person, and I truly wish her the best, I love her and hate her.

 

Life Comes At You Fast!!! Nationwide is on Your Side.....

[glegend]

I can kind of relate to your mother with her financial problems. My parents are undergoing a similar problem only difference is they aren't bankrupt of 30gran. Since your not sure who gave you each item from the wedding then that would be very difficult to decide who gets it. With my uncle case since his wife (my aunt) doesnt have much of a family it's easier for them to split the items. Only suggestion I have is maybe to try to figure out who gave what. As for the vaccum cleaner Im not sure what to tell you. You make a good point. All I can tell you is if your wife doesn't want it then take it, but if its that good of a vaccum then I'm pretty sure she might want it. But I am not their nor do I know you and your wife personally is like to really be able to make an assumption (no offece). So then the bank own the house maybe that better in the long run. You dont have to decide who keeps the house. Its better then with my uncle's situation, if my aunt decides she wants the house and files for it in court when they get the divorce final then she would owe my uncle like 200gran. And if it cannot be paid she would most likely have to put it up for sale. So from that point of view its better that the bank own the house. If you guys both want the same thing then you may run into a problem. Maybe you can decide somehow who really needs it. As for the dresser maybe your wife should keep since she has alot of fancy clothes and you should keep your rifle. The couch is difficult umm heres a suggestion like you said whoever wants it pays for it, how about if one wants it then they have to pay half of the cost. Or you can do the worst thing possible (at least in my eyes) let the court decide who gets what.

[mike_chppr]

Fairness it is a rough concept. I've thought a bit about this. say we have 11K in the bank account. But she is getting the 6K couch and I am getting the 3K computer. I've leveraged both on no interest plans to capture the interest in my ING Account. So we have 9K of the available cash that we are paying off. Now here is the thing. The concept now is that we split the availabel cash. So that means we have 2K left over to split. So I walk away with a 4K benifit and she walks away with a 7K benift. Is this really fair. I don't think she should be fully responsible for the couch. But I haven't expressed this concern to her yet.

 

We are starting the split with Stock Accounts. My ROTH IRA is doing better than hers. So If I have 1K more then this means that I will transfer $500 in liquidatable assets into her ROTH IRA or bank account or Retirement Account.

As far as the joint trading accounts. We will treat this as a partnership and split what is left in the account 50/50 as we sell. This way we don't have to liquidate what I feel are promising stocks. I can also slowly buy her out of these. The next thing we have are our 401K's from work. I had been putting 15% of my income into this account so that money unseen is money unspent. She is putting 6% just to get her company's matching contribution. Hence I have way more in the retirement account then she does. So I think the decision here is where we can balance things out. Ideally we would take these accounts say she has 5K and I have 15K so what would be fair is for me to transfer 5K to her account and we both have 10K. But this is money unseen and untouched and untaxed. So Is what we could do is Figure out a fair percentage of the couch for me to pay and to balance out the benifit. Hence I would transfer 5K-1.5K or $3,500 to the retirement account which would balance it out. As far as the stuff, I'm not taking much of it. I haven't started packing yet, but I know I need to. I just want to take basics and develop my own "style." The house, we are going on the same gameplan of doing a bridge loan from her parents to cover us over the rough patch. This is very complicated. As far as compensation she will be paying 850/mo towards the mortgage which is what she would pay if she were to get an apartment. I will be paying 250/mo towards the mortgage in order to compensate her for "live-in" maintenance. The rest will be covered with the bridge loan. I agreed to the 250 to help with utilities, and also this was an amount that she agreed would be a fair 50/50 split when we sell the house. I had some super complicated equations, but this seemed to be the easiest equation without having an exponential time based compensation cumulative probability chart. Yes, I can create it, but noone else could understand it. But we are taking a "snapshot of the accounts on January 1st at midnight. These are the numbers we agree to use to shuffle everything. So even though it doesn't happen immediately, we will have a "fair" starting point.

 

Massage Therapy

Well I went over to the NMTI National Massage Therapy Institute. OK, I was fairly impressed. Let me give you some background on my interest. Why do I want to do this.... I feel like my inability to touch my wife really created a lot of anxiety between us and her avoidance fed on that. I get anxious when being touched and I get anxious touching others. So I'm taking this class for me. This is an opportunity to learn about touch in a professional setting. It is a chance to learn and confirm to my inner child that touch is not something to be afraid of. So I'm not doing this to change careers, I'm doing this for me. I'm scared all to heck. Today is my first class. Here is how their program works. The total cost of the program is 9K. But part time is every other weekend for Saturday Sunday for the first two months and then friday evening Saturday Sunday for the remaining 10 months. They skip holidays. for my Army drill weekends they will work around them where I can make up the hours and coursework on an alternate weekend. So the time cruch isn't as daunting as first percieved. I get theraputic benifits as well. Cost. I pay $610/mo in college loans. This is the flat payment plan not the graduated plan. So, by becoming a part time student at NMTI the payment concept is like 1K down payment and 660/mo for twelve months. So since my loans go into deferrment and the interest does not accrue this is like taking the course for $1,600. This happens to be a fantastic deal. So part of the class I get and give massages every other week. Great for my own health benifits and what I'm going through right now PTSD wise, but I don't think there are too many opportunities like this. The people at work think I'm becoming a closet hippy. Oh I'm very right wing, but that is another story... entirely.

 

Last night she didn't come home. She left the TV on for the dog to have some noise and the remote was on her bedside table. When I got home I went in to turn the TV off since the dog has me as company. I have no idea where she went last night, but I've stopped asking. In the evenings her phone rings like crazy and she answers and tells a mans voice that she will call him back later. That stings, but I keep reminding myself that we are divorced already. I have this internal psychoticness to pry. Last night when I went to turn the TV off there was a card on her bedside table. It has several small hearts with monkeys hanging from them sitting on them, etc. It is just sitting there out in the open. I was like Oh..... Whisky Tango Foxtrot! I reminded myself that I wasn't going to pry. I went into the batroom and started cussing and yelling at myself in the mirror. Repremanding the inclination of wanting to open it to see what it says. I feel so vulnerable. It could be a blank card, but then it could be well.... you know.... a lover's letter. I cannot confront her on this, because it would kind of be an Oh, crap I'm caught one way or the other situation for her. How could she deny it without showing me the card to prove her innocence, and then if she doesn't show me the card even if I don't ask her to, it is kind of verifying my worst fear. I'm reminding myself that we are divorced. We are divorced even though the papers aren't here or we sleep under the same roof. Oh, this is maddening. my internal anxiey of wanting to look is killing me. but I think It would do a lot of harm to find out. I would transfer from a self-reflective spot in my life which I'm experiencing a lot of personal growth to a blame place. I would be furiously angry and resentful. So I'm trying with every ounce of my being not to look at the card, not to go into her room. I had to to turn off the television, but I'm verbally yelling at my mind that I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to look. I'm not going to stoop to that, It isn't healthy to know. I've convinced my desire to not look to about 80% and I have that 20% urge in me that really puts a spin on the gut wrenching.

 

Keep me in your thoughts, I'm terrified of going to this class, what if it is totally granola boy / granola girl petuli smelling free loving hippies in this class. I'm totally nervous I won't be able to relate or get along with anyone. but I'm doing this for me. I don't know if I should dump my story on the first day on the why are you taking this class or to take my time and give a glossed over response. I will probably dump my story, it is a shock value thing and it is kind of my style. I'm not sure if that is wise, but I will gage it when the time comes. I know by the time I get there I will be trembling uncontrollably. But I'm so looking forward to doing it.

 

OK I'm running out of time before I have to walk the dog and get ready for class. So I'm leaving a note of what to follow up on when I get the time.

 

Discussion at Steakhouse / Mutual Friends and a Baby

 

Mike_chppr

[mike_chppr]

prying into the card is about 90/10 now I'm 90% in control of my actions. but 10% of me wants to race over and look.

 

Thursday night we met at a Steakhouse after work. We had decided on Wednesday night that we would eat out together, mind you she has been gone from Thursday of last week all the way up until Tuesday night. And Wednesday we discussed the January 1st cutoff of the finances and a few other things. She went to bed. Here is the thing. I was mad at her. I had gotten these fantastic responses to our dog getting his CGC from other friends and her text message was like "so you'll be home soon" When I got home her door was closed and she was asleep. I went to bed with excitement and actually couldn't sleep Tuesday night at all. Then on Wednesday night I did go to be earlier than usual as Wed was a horribly bad day. I wanted to tell her that I was frustrated with her response, but I felt that it would hurt her feelings. When she closed the door I stewed in anguish over it. I should have told her. I'm realizing this is part of our history and I'm reliving it. Expectations and feelings are off the table. I need to say something for me, in person. Face my fear and drive on. So when we sat at the table at the steakhouse, I blurted out before we had our drinks, that I was upset with her. I told her what I had expected and that she had let me down. I told her why I'm telling her, and then we had that akward silence. I felt her pain for the first time and said "I'm sorry I hurt you." She absorbed my apology as a tears flowed down her face. She started to blame feeling sick on Tuesday night as the reason she wasn't happy to see us. Then she told me she was trying to distance herself from our dog and from me. Our dog especially "to make it easier on him." I told her she doesn't see how he sits on the couch with his head proped up by the cushions watching the driveway for you to come home on nights that you stay out. He misses her and he will cope when the split happens, but her witholding love from the dog to make it easier on him is bull snikey. Yes I am the leader of the pack in his world, but she plays an important role to. She struggles with the concept that our dog will not be in her life everyday and possibly not every other weekend. How lonly the house will feel. I empathized with her, with a healthy concept of distance in my mind "She chose this." We were both crying discreetly wiping the tears with our napkins. I reaffirmed how I love her, and I worry about her. We can't just throw away 9 years of history together. Yes, we are splitting, but we still know more about one another than anyone on the earth does. I don't want us to work out, I've sealed that in. I'm moving on. I'm doing things for me. But I still worry about her. The weekend while she was gone "with friends" I had lunch with a mutual friend of ours and her baby, her husband was out of town. She verbalized to me how she could see "How I had really hurt my wife" but she also said "How she is kind of leaving me at a bad time." That is where I internalized how I had hurt my wife. We went on to discuss how all the suddent my wife has all these friends and she never calls or is too busy. Our mutual friend is feeling dejected. Since when does she have someone to spend all these nights with and have all this fun without her? I discussed how I felt cheated on, but want to believe she is telling me the truth. During our discussion at the steakhouse I brought up all these conversations that I had had during the weekend she was "on her road trip." I told my wifex not to shut everyone out. People still care about her, she is wrapped around the concept of how our friends are calling me now instead of her. To schedule dinner for tonight, they called me when they linked up they called me. I told them to call her to choose a place to eat. So we all linked up to eat, my wifex had to leave early for a work related Christmas party. I backbriefed our mutual friends that I had shared our conversations with her. I told her (our friend) how I couldn't speak for her, but I got the drift that she felt dejected by my wife, she nodded in agreement. I also told her how my wife had said she called several times and never gotten a returned phone call. She looked shocked, and I told her I know. She has said she called me like 5 times during the day and I have 2 missed calls with no voicemails. So I told our friend it is the blame game and don't make a bigger deal about it then it seems she is doing it more to express anguish to me than the acutal truth. I feel akward... feeling like I'm taking the higher ground on this. I'm concerned about my wifex, but man, it is like she hasn't really thought this thing through. She has stayed so unemotional through the whole process, not letting herself break down in front of me. I told her that I had internalized her hurt by my lies during the conversation with our mutual friend. That is when I really was able to viscerally see how badly I had hurt her. She questioned why I was never able to see that from her. I told her because she wouldn't let me. She always has to be the strong one to show no emotion to be avoidant and distant. I discussed more of how I have framed the history of our relationship in my mind. How she had slammed me once when we were dating. I was trying to express the love hurt relationship that we have, but it came out sort of like I love you, but you can be a real * * * * * sometimes. Oh she kicked me out of the car like 10 miles from campus and drove off. She came back to pick me up as I started to walk back. We went to campus and then a few days later she met me outside of class to express that she didn't want to hold a grudge like this and everything was fine and dandy. Then in counseling, we were asked to say something that we didn't like about one another. I brought up I didn't like how she wasn't very focused on her health/ like diet and weight. She was incredibly hurt and I couldn't handle it so between those two instances I had sealed in to never hurt her feelings. And so I said nothing our whole marriage that might hurt. I seethed inside with resentment, rage, and anger. And when I went to Iraq, I saw it for what it was, and wrote a huge letter to dump everything out on the line. If this was going to work, I had to let myself be known. I tried, and it has apparently backfired, but I would not have experienced the growth and self-reflection/realization of who the real me is had I not done anything (sent the letter) in the first place. So the steakhouse conversation was hurtful, but healthy.

 

She told me that she wasn't going to be in on Friday night but would come home on Saturday and let the dog out. I went to massage class, and then went to the Saturday evening service at church. She texted me to tell me that she wasn't coming home on Saturday and I stewed on her not letting the dog out. I got home walked the dog and went to bed. And got up this morning for School. School is a whole new level of discussion and I'm still internalizing everything (in a good kind of way). When I arrived home she had already gotten home the first words out of her mouth was "Why were you over by Tyson's Corner. When she first called me I had gotten out of school and our friends had called me to let me know they were headed out. I told her where I was at as far as being home and she let me know the same. She was coming from the opposite of where I thought she would be at. I thought she would be at work making up for all the time she has taken off. I reminded myself that it didn't matter, but she asked why I was over by Tyson's Corner as if I was up to something fishy. I retorted because I had school, holding the bag for the Massage class in my hand. Once again Whisky Tango Foxtrot. We met up with our friends the same one I mentioned above. Her husband and mother were with us this time. We went through the pleasantries, and coordinating where to go, was a chore, I asked them to call her and see where she wanted to eat. Once my wifex had left early to go to her work-thing, I divulged what was going on between us. Summarized above.

 

I care about my wifex, but her issues really aren't mine anymore. We both want to be protective of one another. We both still hurt. We both still love each other. We are both trying to move on..... In a lot of ways I can't wait to get Christmas at her parents house over with and come back to move into my new place. I haven't had time to pack boxes or anything like that, but Man oh man..... it will be such a relief to not have to be accountable to her and arrange our schedules around each other.

 

Keep me in your thoughts and prayers. I really have to get some focus and accountability at work these next three days. I know it is the holidays, but the longer I put off my project the more the internal anxiety builds.

 

Left on the follow up discussion from me is how did Massage Therapist Class go? I need to take my sleeping pills and meds now.

 

Mike_chppr

[mike_chppr]

Well the days of reconing are upon us. I've signed the lease for my apartment. I pick up the keys tomorrow. We just got back from our 7 days in California with her parents. I love her parents so much and it really hurts them that we are going through with this. I had several discussions with her dad about how I was coping and moving on. Her parents are holding out for the idea that even after a separation somewhere down the road we will end up getting back together. The way her parents treated me this weekend was so foreign to the way that my family would treat my wifex. They didn't have it out for me. I hadn't ruined their or my wifex's life. They are going to loan us the money to cover the gap until we could sell the house and even had some suggestions on ways to complete the items on the Real Estate Agents "Things to do list." It was very relaxing and once I knew where her dad stood by our conversations most of my anxieties were relieved. Her Mom cried when she opened my gift and what I had written on the card. Her Mom is very stern with very little expressive emotion, so I about lost it as well, but we maintained the "enjoying each others company" without really talking about the "white elephant" that this would quite likely be the last time they see us together or at least at their house. When they come to see my wifex I am assured to be in their plans. They still want to see their grand-doggy.

 

So December 31st is the mark.

 

Finances. We are tallying up all the accounts.

Her Roth IRA

My Roth IRA

My work Retirement Account

Her work Retirement Account

Our Joint investment account

Our Bank Account

 

Then we are paying off my computer and the six thousand dollar couch. determining what in the last months credit card statement was joint or separated. And paying off the joint things with what is in the accounts.

 

Now we have a dollar value and it gets cut in half.

 

So being that my Roth IRA is higher, and my work retirement account is higher I'll have to transfer some monies.

 

As far as the joint stock account it will cost me around $200 to sell all of our symbols. That is a price I'm willing to take so that it isn't dragging over our heads. Also I can repurchase what I want. So this is a reallocation of sorts or I can have liquid cash to purchase things like a new bedroom set, vacuum cleaner, etc...

 

On the drive home. She asked me if I was taking any of the kitchen stuff. I said just enough to get by and she decided we needed to discuss. I said I didn't want her to come home and feel robbed and that I would like to discuss what I am taking on Thursday and Friday evenings. But she is working on Thursday and Friday she isn't coming home as I am moving out on Saturday and she doesn't want to be around for any of my coworkers "looks" I don't blame her and I don't want her to be exposed to their stinging looks either. So when in the heck are we going to get together. I mentioned the 1st we could meet up before we link up with some mutual friends for dinner. I said maybe that morning we could go through the things that we need to do together. I got a sharp, I won't be in that morning! In my mind I felt the dejection coming on. In one sense she wants me out of the house... "Your going to call before you come over right?" ... "What if meeting on one of your 'weekends off' isn't good for me and I don't want you coming over?" I'm like damn, I own the house too. But if you don't want me coming over I won't come over! We have to arrange to fix the things on the house to get it ready to sell in spring right? is how I feel. We have to work together on separating the bills and the taxes and office supplies and whatever other piles we have sitting around. It is like she wants a clean cut. But then, wants to trail me along on finishing some of the things we need to do to sort out our lives. Because there are things that I'm not willing to take without sifting it through with her. After it is taken "possession is 9/10s of the law." I told her how I felt about her response about not beeing there in the morning. I told her I still feel dejected and this hurts. She was like you need to accept..... something or other. I told her "the conversation was over" and she continued to try to get me to accept her apology for the sharpness of her I won't be available that morning statment. When she tried to tell that I had to accept... I cut her off with "I gives a Frick" except I didn't use frick. I told her I didn't care I don't fricking care. I should have said I don't have to accept Spit. But she taken aback by me dropping the F bomb in the conversation. and then spilling into how dejected and hurt I feel, we went about 5 miles of silence with tears streaming down my faces she asked if I wanted a tissue. I said No. after a while we had a more rational discussion about what to take and what to leave for the rest of the trip home from the airport.

 

For my own mental health I need to walk away from this feeling like everything was out in the open exposed and fair. Especially regarding finances. I feel a bit swindled with the arrangement of the "stuff." but I really want to start over. I mean if I take the vacuum she has to buy a new one, if I take the microwave she has to buy a new one. I don't want stuff hanging around my new place reminding me of "taking it so I don't feel swindled." I feel that a better perspective is to walk away from it all. To leave all the things from my teens and twenties and start new. Figure out what I like what "My" style really is. I've settled on a bedroom furniture set. I have a lot of focus on setting up my bedroom. I really need it to be a sleep and get dressed only kind of thing. No magazines, no books, no tv, Just me and the alarm clock. I only go in there when it is bedtime and I come out to all the junk it isn't sitting around reminding me that it needs to be finished. So I'm buying blackout curtains, chocolate paint for the walls replacing the light fixture in the apartment with something more modern and installing a timed dimmer. Yes it is my apartment, but sleep is critical to managing the PTSD stressors, even if I have nightmares I still need to go to sleep. Once the bedroom is set up then I can focus on the living room and kitchen. That is where I'm at right now. I don't want a messy cluttered bachelors pad, but I don't want a shag pad either.

 

So my life as I know it is being put into boxes this is a hurtful process, it is going to be, but in the next few weeks I have the opportunity for a complete fresh start.

 

So I think I will order my new bed from Select Comfort tomorrow as well. It'll arrive in about two weeks having that fresh, new "plastic airbed smell."

 

Have a Happy New Year Everyone. and if someone wants to get chatty about what I've said or what is going on, I'd be more than pleased to see your posts.

 

Peace,

Mike_chppr

[mike_chppr]

Well, how long does it take to split the finances?

 

I think we will finish wrapping it up tomorrow. I didn't go to work this morning and she cried last night on the phone about how much she missed our dog. I wanted her to send me the bank statements for the last two months of her account so that we could itemize things out and have us her and me expense catagories. Things that are obviously hers "Starbucks" go into her catagory, things that are obviously mine "link removed" go into my catagory. gasoline and bills and undetermined restraunt usage go into an Us catagory.

 

She called this morning to let me know that she had emailed the statements. I indicated that I had not gone to work and needed to head towards her to pick up dog food. We opted for lunch together, So I brought the dog and she picked up lunch. We met at the house and I am using the Laundry Machines. We had a good conversation. She didn't really see the point in itemizing the bank statements. To her she doesn't have any fight left in her. The whole thing is emotionally draining for her. I asked (probably at the wrong time) if she was happy. She says she will be, but she is stuck. She is stuck in this house with a job that she wants to transfer, and she is just stuck until we sell the house. I can feel how lonely she is and she commented on how quiet the house has been. She enjoyed our dog and he was happy to see her. She is spending the night at some local friends tonight. They are going to get drunk at her house and talk girl trash until the wee hours of the morning.

 

We have a few bills that are hanging over us still. mainly checks that have not cleared the bank account. I am still going to split the utilities for the upcoming bill as they are billed after usage. We still have our 2005 and 2006 taxes to file, and split that accordingly.

 

I told her that she was an incredible woman and all I want is for her to be happy. That knowing the outcome I would not change our time together for anything. She has helped me immensely grow as a person and for that I will forever be grateful. I told her I worry about her, and I just want her to be happy. When she told me she was going out with the friends tonight I was like good for her. The other night when I called about having her send the bank statements on the phone she told me she was with somone. I of course think she is moving on with some guy who is in our house right now. After we hung up I was wrapped around the axle about it for a few hours, but I reaffirmed that we are already divorced in our heads and that if she is finding happiness with someone else then good for her. I truly mean that. I want her to find someone who can rock her world and fulfill her needs in ways that I was unable to. And likewise she wants someone to do the same for me. I told her that she was looked cute as she left me here to finish my laundry and calculate the totals so we can transfer money into our accounts.

 

I'm at peace, part of me is tense, I have mourned this loss and I probably still have some mourning to go. I have thrown away most of our cards to one another while we were dating, and the others it is only until I unpack them.

 

I have about four boxes of joint files from the last 10 years, credit card statements, taxes, and a variety of other clutter. I'm purchasing a duplex scanner and burning it to disk and then shredding it. This will be a huge project, but the concept of getting rid of all this paper that always seems so daunting will be a large part of closure.

 

I'm concocting a way to rid myself of clothes. Either toss it all and pick some of the style catagories from Mens Health Magazine, or I'll take pictures of me in jeans with every shirt that I own and combinations of wearing them. From there I just need to find a random sample of about 20 to 30 attractive women to pick out their top 10 favorite photos. From there I can reduce my shirt load to about 15 or less. I need to do the same with pants and I have already replaced my undergarments entirely after coming back from Iraq. Closure is a wonderful thing. I still have a close and personal friend. Who I had an incredible desire to kiss as we hammered out the last details. But desire aside, minus a few tears on my part mainly empathizing with how much she is hurting right now, we had a very loving and friendly interaction between the both of us. We each reaffirmed to one another that we will make it through and that we will be happy down the road.

 

I'm coming back on Monday to do some of the work that needs to be finished on the house. If I can push through a whole day of strictly working on the finishing touches I think I can get really far and not have much left to do in spring. If I had known January was going to be this warm I would have sanded and painted the front porch already.

 

I'm still living in a maze of boxes. I have stuff everywhere and some of the decorative items I purchased a week ago are still in the Target or Ikea bags. I think the hardest thing is figuring out how to eat for one person. I'm thinking of doing an eDiets type thing so I can have a printed grocery list. I'm not trying to loose or gain weight, I just want to maintain and get a balanced healthy variety.

 

I wish everyone good luck in their torments, as mine is working out to be one of the best things that will have ever happened to me.

 

mike_chppr