Girls, is it hard for you to weed out the creeps/players?

[Salucious]

Recently I was in one of my classes, one that I sit next to a cute girl. She seems nice enough, pretty soft spoken and timid. These guys next to me were talking before she was there one day, and they started talking about her. The one guy I could tell throughout the semester was trying to flirt with her. I don't know exactly how she thought of it but it always seemed pretty pathetic to me. Pretty much everything he said or asked her was obviously an attempt at flirting. She would occasionally laugh and talk back but she would rarely talk to him without him initiating the conversation. He would also try and talk to her after class as she left but of course I wasn't going to follow the conversation. Anyway, while they were talking the guy says something like "Yeah, I'm working on (her name)" To me this guy sounds like a creep, and recently he's been following and talking to her after class. I've been thinking about trying and get to know her, enough to ask her out. Although this guy is taking up a lot of her attention.

 

How good are girls at picking up on guys who are just looking to make them a tally mark? It pisses me off that these guys can get girls despite their intentions; and that even the nice girls get duped. Does this guy sound like a creep or am I just paranoid?

[robowarrior]

You are not the one to decide, the girl is 50% in the decision making of wether they want to be with you or not. The other 50% comes from your side. Its like this, girls can easily separate losers from winners, however a lot of them cannot decipher the difference between cool confidence, or azholes , jerks. Which is why you often see them go with guys who are nothing but bad news.

 

Whatever has that got to do with you? Don't ask for it, go for gold in life and grab it with your own hands, and if you conquer it it will be yours for the take.

[Kevin T]

Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find...

 

You get the idea.

 

So what if he's found someone he is interested in? As Robo said; What is that to you?

 

If you like her so much, why don't YOU make a move and start talking to her instead of sitting back on the sidelines complaining?

[heloladies21]

It's not your concern and the way you view the situation is passive aggressive behavior that is getting you nowhere.

 

You wanna prevent this girl from getting duped by this guy? Easy solution, start talking to her yourself. Cause brewing in your seat thinking of how much of a jerk this guy is for talking to the girl you're interested in will get you 100% of nothing and is actually wrong fundamentally.

 

There's nothing wrong with what he's doing, him and her are between him and her. If he's taking up a lot of her time, it's your job to get your butt in there. But honestly, no more hating on him for what he's doing just becuse it's with a girl you have a crush on. He's doing what you're suppose to be doing, obviously flirting, persisting through. Learn from him cause at this point, he's in the lead.

[Diablo7000]

i agree with both of them dude, he maybe talknig to her but a time that hes not like before she heads out the door, go with her and if u get the chance and ur in front of her leaving, hold the door then ask her name or such and yada yada you get the idea, and if he has a problem with it, oh well tough luck, now theres competition with him, and dn't talk to her for 30 mins the first time either, that'll be a good indication you're trying to get with her, i mean us aid he talks to her almsot all class, and she ahrdly responds, he just wants to get her first, just kinda start slow, get a name, ask age properly like may i ask your age? or soemthing like that, just get some small details and say you'll see her tomorrow or around school or something, the worse she could do is say no, or just blow you off completely, then u'll know shes not for you, theres like what 4 billion people in the word, atleast half are girls, u'll find someone.

[Salucious]

I was just trying to say he doesn't seem like he is genuinly intersted in her, only in using her. I was curious as to whether I should consider him competition at all.

[Diablo7000]

if he seems like the type that would just use her and u wouldn't then consider it competition u gotta get to her before he does cas thigns could get bad if he goes with her

[saint_saul]

Salu, it really depends on the situation and it varies from girl to girl. From what you described, she is either incredibly shy, or has 0 interest in this guy (occasional laughter = usually fake, at least that's how it is for me). Sometimes, though, having a guy interested in you is flattery enough to initiate interest in them, so, if I were you, I would try to talk to her. The guy doesn't sound like a creep, per se, but any guy who discusses "getting" a girl openly and loudly to his friends is creepy enough.

[New_Horizons]

Well I must say it doesn't look that girls are any good at telling creeps from 'genuine' men. You see girls dating creeps, and girls rejecting sincere men. Too often they judge the man on his confidence with the totally flawed equation : Unconfident Man = Creep.

[Carl5000]

I was just trying to say he doesn't seem like he is genuinly intersted in her, only in using her. I was curious as to whether I should consider him competition at all.

 

Don't we all use it other. Perhaps he;s looking to use her sexually as a notch on his bed post. You are looking to use her in other ways- which you feel are more morally accepted in society.

 

Or perhaps your wanting to use her sexually yet your unconscious or superego is denying you in believeing its the case- otherwords it might not come upto ur ego ideal. I've been reading too much freud, jung recently lol.

 

I'm no ladies man or womaniser, yet i've observed a few friends who are good with the ladies. They seem to get the balance right, they r neither too aggressive or timid in their approach and they come accross as very genuine even when there motives aren't.

 

Just make sure she knows ur interested; keep looking into her eyes when talking, smile at her accross a room and just slowly get to know her- do it with subtly. This other guy, will probably seem too cheesy, needy and desperate- he should be easy competition unless he's got the look, the skills, the smoothness

[Carl5000]

Well I must say it doesn't look that girls are any good at telling creeps from 'genuine' men. You see girls dating creeps, and girls rejecting sincere men. Too often they judge the man on his confidence with the totally flawed equation : Unconfident Man = Creep.

 

A guy i used to know who'd slept with excess of a 50 women used to say 'confident is key' so very true.

[Dating Coach]

What's so creepy about this guy? You say he is obvious in his attempt to flirt? Good for him! That's how it should be! The way it shouldn't be is a guy who is interested in her, who instead of being obvious, tries to sneak in under the disguise of being not interested. That guy's the liar. The guy who is openly flirting is the guy with stronger social skills.

 

Not that I think this guy is doing everything right either, he is actually going too slow with it if he's been flirting with her all semester, but he still is far ahead of where you are at because you've (as far as you've said) done nothing but eavesdrop and talk about how you're considering trying to get to know her before asking her out. If you are interested then straight up be honest and ask her out.

[Dating Coach]

I was just trying to say he doesn't seem like he is genuinly intersted in her, only in using her. I was curious as to whether I should consider him competition at all.

 

Are you trying to say that you've heard him say he just wants to use her and move on? Hit it and forget it? I doubt you've heard him say that. From your description it seems like he's not doing anything wrong and that you are making assumptions about his intentions because he is flirting in a way that challenges the way you would do it.

[QuietWolf]

Salucious, what do YOU want? Are you interested in her? or just interested in standing in between the guy you observe being two-faced (talking about her behind her back to his buddies).

 

I don't agree with the speed-seduction types on this forum... I think most of them have an agenda like selling a book, or they just believe that crap and have nothing better to do in their lives than repeat it here.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that people are all different, one woman/girl might like the way this other guy is behaving, another might not. Until you get to know her better, you really have no way of knowing... you can't judge a book by its cover. You seem to think she is 'nice' and he is not, how do you even know she is 'nice'? ...just because she is quiet? You could be projecting something you think onto your image of her.

 

As to the guy being obviously flirty with her all the time, I tend to agree with you that it is too obvious, low brow, and works best on shallow women, or women that just want to hook up. If she likes it, then that tells you something about her, and maybe she isn't your type.

 

If you want to talk to her, then do so, and try to ignore the other guys. I think most women of above average intelligence respect genuine behavior far more than flirty behavior. Get to know her and let her get to know you.

 

As to the confidenc thing, I think most people are least confident trying to be something they are not... so if you are not a flirty type, you probably won't be very confident trying to flirt, but if you are good at talking about liturature, or whatever, then see if you can strike up a conversation about that with her. What kind of class is this? Maybe you can study together.

 

As to what what a few others have said about the need to go fast, BS. I've moved slow with many women, and it worked very well. It really just depends on them, and your own style. Sure, moving slow might have lost me some, but I'd rather be with those with whom it worked anyway. Nobody wins everying dating game, in spite of what they might say in a mostly anonymous chat board...

 

If you really want to know what women like in general, make a few women platonic friends, and be genuine about it. Talk to them, listen to them, you will learn a lot... and they might ask you for advice too. Use them for advice more than you use an internet message board...

[Dating Coach]

I don't agree with the speed-seduction types on this forum... I think most of them have an agenda like selling a book, or they just believe that crap and have nothing better to do in their lives than repeat it here.

 

What is speed seduction?

 

As to the guy being obviously flirty with her all the time, I tend to agree with you that it is too obvious, low brow, and works best on shallow women, or women that just want to hook up. If she likes it, then that tells you something about her, and maybe she isn't your type.

 

Because she enjoys flirting then you suggest it says something negative about her? People who flirt are shallow? Care to explain because there are a lot of generalizations and sterotyping in what you just said and I know you couldn't have meant it like that. Besides, if the guy is obviously flirting with her then he's honestly telling her that he's attracted to her. What about that is lowbrow? If anything is underhanded it's misleading a girl by letting her think you're just interested in her as "friends" when you're not. Congrats to that guy for letting her know where he stands with her.

 

II think most women of above average intelligence respect genuine behavior far more than flirty behavior.

 

What about flirting is not genuine behavior? I'm confused...

 

As to the confidenc thing, I think most people are least confident trying to be something they are not... so if you are not a flirty type, you probably won't be very confident trying to flirt, but if you are good at talking about liturature, or whatever, then see if you can strike up a conversation about that with her. What kind of class is this? Maybe you can study together.

 

Flirting is a social skill, it's not a part of who a person is. If women respond well to someone who is honest and flirty (it's fun!) and you want to make the best impression, then why would someone refuse to develope a skill that will help them? Refusing to do so sounds a bit narrow minded and stubborn to me.

 

As to what what a few others have said about the need to go fast, BS.

 

It's about honesty. If you are attracted to the woman and are interested in being more than "friends" with her, then you shouldn't approach her under the disguise that you aren't interested in her like that. It's dishonest and reaks of low self confidence. That's the point. You're not making a very good impression of yourself. You're showing them that you are dishonest and not confident with yourself.

Most guys (based upon my experiences and the hundreds of posters on these forums) started feeling an attraction to the girl before they snuck in under the disguise of "just friends" and they ended up being such a good friend because they wanted her to start to like him. This is what I discourage because not only are the end results much worse than if you are honest upfront, but you are also being true to her and yourself.

 

If you are too scared to make a move or ask a girl out then a guy should work on improving his self confidence because his fear is causing him to "not be true to himself". Think about it. What that person wants is to become boyfriend and girlfriend with that girl. Letting fear grip you is keeping you from doing what you want. So yes, the appropriate move would be to shed yourself of your fear and honestly pursuing your goal.

 

 

Nobody wins everying dating game, in spite of what they might say in a mostly anonymous chat board...

 

I've been on these boards for a long time now and I have never heard anyone say what you suggest people say.

 

If you really want to know what women like in general, make a few women platonic friends, and be genuine about it. Talk to them, listen to them, you will learn a lot... and they might ask you for advice too. Use them for advice more than you use an internet message board...

 

There are tons of great advice on these boards and also tons of bad advice coming from rl friends, boyr and girls. Why would you tell someone to limit themselves to good advice?

[QuietWolf]

What is speed seduction?

Try Google if you are serious that you don't know.

 

Because she enjoys flirting then you suggest it says something negative about her? People who flirt are shallow? Care to explain because there are a lot of generalizations and sterotyping in what you just said and I know you couldn't have meant it like that. Besides, if the guy is obviously flirting with her then he's honestly telling her that he's attracted to her. What about that is lowbrow? If anything is underhanded it's misleading a girl by letting her think you're just interested in her as "friends" when you're not. Congrats to that guy for letting her know where he stands with her.

Flirting with somebody you don't know yet (which is what the guy posted), means you are attracted to them on the outside, which is fine, but if all you do is flirt (which is what the guy said), rather than also having regular conversations, that means you are making no effort to get to know them on the inside. Do I need to spell out the rest?

 

What about flirting is not genuine behavior? I'm confused...

Below you said it is a social skill. Smiling is a social skill... you mean you don't know people that can smile when they are not being sincere? Many people can flirt when they are not sincere... combine that with a person that is making no effort to get to know you on the inside and it should be obvious what they want. But hey, if both parties want that, then that is fine (for them).

 

Flirting is a social skill, it's not a part of who a person is. If women respond well to someone who is honest and flirty (it's fun!) and you want to make the best impression, then why would someone refuse to develope a skill that will help them? Refusing to do so sounds a bit narrow minded and stubborn to me.

It is fine as part of a complete set of social skills, but by no means is it the most important social skill to develop when it comes to meeting women that you are serious about.

 

It's about honesty. If you are attracted to the woman and are interested in being more than "friends" with her, then you shouldn't approach her under the disguise that you aren't interested in her like that. It's dishonest and reaks of low self confidence.

BS. If you don't know her yet, how can you know what you want? Unless you are basing it all on apperances. Granted I base much on apperances, but I base a lot more on what is inside... and until you know them, you don't know what is inside. So, the honest thing is to take the time needed to get to know them.

 

Granted, there are women that need validation for their looks and will respond to men that flirt with them and hit on them before these men know the rest of them... but I tend to think these are the women that know that their looks are the best they have to offer... hence the shallow lowbrow comment.

 

That's the point. You're not making a very good impression of yourself. You're showing them that you are dishonest and not confident with yourself.

No, you are showing them you are willing to get to know them before you commit to anything more. It shows you are confident enough in yourself that you can take your time. Don't confuse not flirting with lacking confidence... it is about choosing when to flirt, and with whom. I'm very selective about whom I choose to do that with.

 

Most guys (based upon my experiences and the hundreds of posters on these forums) started feeling an attraction to the girl before they snuck in under the disguise of "just friends" and they ended up being such a good friend because they wanted her to start to like him. This is what I discourage because not only are the end results much worse than if you are honest upfront, but you are also being true to her and yourself.

My life experinece points otherwise. The best relationships I've had were with women I got to know before we became a couple. I stand by this belief. The worst relationships were in the case where we just rushed into it based on physical attraction.

 

If you are too scared to make a move or ask a girl out then a guy should work on improving his self confidence because his fear is causing him to "not be true to himself".

I don't disagree with this at all, but I don't think that is what anybody was talking about here.

 

Think about it. What that person wants is to become boyfriend and girlfriend with that girl. Letting fear grip you is keeping you from doing what you want. So yes, the appropriate move would be to shed yourself of your fear and honestly pursuing your goal.

But that pursuit does not have to take the form of flirting... it can take many other forms... studying together, playing a sport together, etc., and with many women those other forms are much better received. I know a lot of women that don't like to be flirted with by guys they don't know, but they do enjoy it from guys they do know (if they like them).

 

I've been on these boards for a long time now and I have never heard anyone say what you suggest people say.

Perhaps I went too far, but some posters here act like they know everything and have all the answers, and write in a rather dogmatic manner. Nobody knows all the answers.

 

There are tons of great advice on these boards and also tons of bad advice coming from rl friends, boyr and girls. Why would you tell someone to limit themselves to good advice?

I just believe that people will get better advice, on average - there are alwlays exceptions, from friends than from an anonymous poster that doesn't know them that well, and whos agenda nobody can know.

[Salucious]

I'd have to agree with QuietWolf. Diggity, I may be inexperienced with girls but I won't fully believe that all you need is good "skills" to get women. Putting it that way just supports the "player" type of person, somone that may be fantastic at flirting and talking to women but have selfish intentions. If you want to be sincere in meeting people you can't just look at it as using your "skills" on them. That just shows you know how to flirt, big deal; just because you get results doesn't mean it is the best method. I could be the most unconfident creep out there and still manipulate women using "skills."

 

You have to understand that just because a method of meeting women works doesn't mean it will get you the kind of results you want (by that I mean the kind of girls you like). Personally I'd rather take my chances on talking to girls casually and getting to know them at least a little before flirting (so I know if I am interested in them); and even at that point not spending 100% of my time trying to hit on her. I think what QuietWolf is trying to say, in my understanding, that yeah flirting is used to make it clear that you are interested in a girl, but if thats all you do then you will come on too strong. And of course there will be a lot of girls out there that all you have to do is flirt with and use those "skills" and those alone and they will be attracted to you, but just to those skills.

 

For whatever reason, I think my "perfect catch" won't let me just pick her up in one fell swoop, she'll make me work for it; make me get to know the real her before she warms up to me and me to her.

 

We still haven't had many girls' opinions, on how they feel guys should approach them. Strong flirting vs. talking and a little flirting.

[heloladies21]

Hey, I'm not trying to sell anything (yet) or care about proving that I'm right to a bunch of people I don't even know on an internet forum. I could care less about being right, I just wanna know what works and if someone asks me for some help, then I'm more than willing to lend a hand. If people don't like my advice, hey no big deal, I'm not gonna force anyone to listen. I really only like helping people with an open mind and willing to try new things. So honestly, try the friends route, prove to yourself that it doesn't work, and then come back with more questions. Taking things too slow is dangerous because it gives the girl the impression that you're not so interested and she then dismisses you as a friend. I've had this happen to me a bunch and I can tell every time when it's for that reason, but really part of the learning process is experiencing it for yourself.

 

And I actually take offense that anyone would call those that refer to "skills" as a player, because I have learned skills which I use on a daily basis and I don't play anyone. I am just as true to myself today as I was before coming accross this new found information. More so actually, because now I'm not afraid to express that I care about a girl, so I am much more free to be who I am. There are people who will learn seduction tactics to use women. I am not one of those. Do not stereotype us. What I've learned is working quite well and I have no sleeping at night with a clear conscience because I'm doing it the right way.

[QuietWolf]

So honestly, try the friends route, prove to yourself that it doesn't work, and then come back with more questions. Taking things too slow is dangerous because it gives the girl the impression that you're not so interested and she then dismisses you as a friend. I've had this happen to me a bunch and I can tell every time when it's for that reason, but really part of the learning process is experiencing it for yourself.

The thing is, the friends first route has worked for many many people, the fact that it didn't work for you could be more a sign that you need to work on that, not that others should avoid trying to be friends first.

 

Could be the woman just didn't like who you were, and regardless of wether you tried being friends first or a flirt first, she would have rejected you either way.

 

I have experienced relationships achieved through both routes, friends first and flirt first. What I'm saying, is that for a guy that wants to be friends first, there is nothing wrong with that, and many women will appreciate that. And in my experience, while the flirt first relationships got me somehwere (short term validation), those were never the relationships that lasted very long, or that I look back on as being quality LTRs... they teneded to just be shorter one night stands or STRs.

 

So, just because friends first never worked for you, doesn't mean it hasn't worked for others and won't work for others, you are just wrong about that.

[heloladies21]

The thing is, the friends first route has worked for many many people

 

Not speaking from just my life, I've never seen it in others around me. There's just too much confusion and doubt put into the girls mind by not pursuing something right off the bat. There's always the question of "Why wasn't he interested in me in the beginning?" "Is he just not that interested in me? Is he some indecisive wishy-washy guy (unattractive to females)" Relationships can sprout from friendships, but I've never seen them be successful. It usually ends with the girl dumping the guy.

 

the fact that it didn't work for you could be more a sign that you need to work on that, not that others should avoid trying to be friends first.

My way with girls seems to be getting quite successful (I have a gf) and one of the things that made me more successful was that I stopped trying this backdoor friends route. I saw a difference as soon as I changed this.

 

The thing is, the friends first route has worked for many many peopleAnd in my experience, while the flirt first relationships got me somehwere (short term validation), those were never the relationships that lasted very long, or that I look back on as being quality LTRs... they teneded to just be shorter one night stands or STRs.

I've never gotten into a LTR by being friends. All of my LTR's have come from expressing my interest at the beginning. I've never seen it done either. There's always a fundamental flaw in the relationship and it eventually fails.

 

The thing is, the friends first route has worked for many many peopleSo, just because friends first never worked for you, doesn't mean it hasn't worked for others and won't work for others, you are just wrong about that.

This site is littered with the stories of guys who tried being "friends" with girls (which is really a misnomer and deception because it's really just a disguised crush), only to have them suffer through the chick dating other guys, low self esteem, wasted time being hung up on some chick who long ago decided that nothing was going to happen between her and the guy.

 

So feel free to have your belief, but if you are the one who is usually getting dumped by the chick, you most probably have a problem expressing your true feelings to girls, so you might wanna take a look at some of my other advice about not hiding things or fooling people.

 

If I'm interested in a girl, I let her know. If I don't see anything like that, I let her know. If I don't know yet, I spend a little time with her and then decide, but it usually doesn't take that long for me to put a girl into a catagory. I'm a decisive guy. This is a good thing.

[Dating Coach]

Try Google if you are serious that you don't know.

 

Okay, I will. I was hoping you could give me a summary of what you mean by that instead of having to read a generic description because that doesn't give me too much of an insight to what you are trying to say. I'm curious as to your stance.

 

Flirting with somebody you don't know yet (which is what the guy posted), means you are attracted to them on the outside, which is fine, but if all you do is flirt (which is what the guy said), rather than also having regular conversations, that means you are making no effort to get to know them on the inside.

 

Correct-there is nothing wrong with being attracted to someone on the outside. What is wrong is only being attracted to someone on the outside. Do we agree?

 

As far as only flirting... well of course you want to have real conversations to get to know someone, but I wasn't under the impression that anyone was talking about how you can't have a real conversation and how you can only flirt. In fact I don't recall anyone ever saying that. What's even more interesting is that you can actually flirt and have real conversations at the same time! Pretty cool stuff! It's advanced social skills where you feel completely comfortable with yourself and you have a fun "real" conversation with some teasing and flirting mixed in. It's an incredible way to socialize and make a good impression of yourself.

 

Flirting doesn't mean that you have to be throwing out advances and sexual innuendo. Flirting is having fun with a conversation. The verb I am referring to means to deal lightly, casually, or flippantly with someone.

I suspect you are thinking of flirting in a different light than I am. I suspect you are assuming sexual advances and bold moves. While flirting could contain this, they are not mutually inclusive. And sometimes, when both parties are interested in it, flirting with that sexual innuendo is really fun and exciting. Of course the situation needs to be right for it, which usually comes later when both parties understand each other better.

 

Do I need to spell out the rest?

 

I see. QuietWolf, you may have to spell some things out for me, I'm sorry. I am no mind reader and unless I ask you to clarify what exactly you mean then I run the risk of thinking you mean the wrong thing. So I apologize to you if I ask you to elaborate or clarify things, I just want to understand what you are saying.

 

Below you said it is a social skill. Smiling is a social skill... you mean you don't know people that can smile when they are not being sincere?

 

Of course, I know people can smile without being sincere. It doesn't mean people shouldn't smile though. People also can flirt without being sincere, but doesn't mean people shouldn't flirt either. If no one ever flirted then the conversations with people wouldn't be near as much fun as they could be, for everyone involved. Same as with smiling.

 

Many people can flirt when they are not sincere... combine that with a person that is making no effort to get to know you on the inside and it should be obvious what they want.

 

Well that depends. I am flirty with the friendly old lady at the grocery store. I tease her about going too slow, or giving me employee discounts, and I don't think she believes for a minute that I am interested in her sexually. Nor am I going to become friends with her and hang out on Saturday Night. Flirting is just a fun social skill. It's what you do with it that matters.

 

It is fine as part of a complete set of social skills, but by no means is it the most important social skill to develop when it comes to meeting women that you are serious about.

 

Well I question what you mean about "meeting women you are serious about" because why would you be "serious" about meeting a complete stranger? If I see an attractive woman I might be interested in meeting her, but it's not something I get serious about.

 

I don't think you can say which social skill is "the most important" because it all depends on a variety of factors, but I can say with complete confidence that it is a very useful social skill. I bring it up a lot with guys who are having trouble in the dating world because as it is one of the most useful skills, it's also the one that most of these guys completely lack. Improving this skill could work wonders at helping them achieve their goals.

 

BS. If you don't know her yet, how can you know what you want? Unless you are basing it all on apperances.

 

How do you know that you want to be friends with them? Not a single "available" guy I've ever met can say they didn't look at a beautiful girl with an amazing smile and think, "Wow, I would like to get to know her!" I am certain you don't think, "She might make an incredible friend! I should get to know her as friends because I need another one!" Neither do I believe for a second that you would just as easily approach a homely girl and make efforts to get to know her as a person because there might be a posibility of a relationship. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I do believe you'd be far more likely to want to see what's up with that glowingly gorgeous woman with the heartstopping smile.

 

The point is, looks do matter, and it does matter with you, and with other guys here. I have been talking with guys on relationship forums for 4 years now, and I have yet to see the shy nice guy make a thread about this homely average looking girl that he's just dying over. The girl in these stories-and there have been thousands of them-are always described as beautiful on the outside and the inside. In fact, there have been a large number of these guys who say this about a girl who isn't Mother Theresa, but they think she is due to their crush. Did they fall that hard for the "not so saintly" girl because she was beautiful on the inside? I don't think so. So let's be honest when it comes to appearance. It does matter. It's not the only thing that should matter, the inside should mean the most, but beauty plays it's biggest hand when? In the initial attraction. Let's face it, that's the truth for 99.9% of guys out there.

 

Now that we accept this as fact (at least I hope you will since it's the truth) then you can honestly say that if you approach a girl that you find to be very beautiful, then it is best to be honest with her. I am not suggesting that you walk up and try to have sex with her, that you tell her that you want to be in a relationship with her, or anything like that at all. What I am saying is that you think she is beautiful, and you are talking to her because you were attracted to that beauty and now you'd like to know her as a person. You want to get to know who is behind that stunning face. The difference is that you are honest about the fact that you are wanting to get to know her and if you find out she is what you want then you can start a relationship. You do that by asking her out so you guys can go out together with your honest foot forward, both acknowledging that you are getting to know each other in order to see if you both are compatable.

No one is suggesting that you jump into a relationship and start making babies. We're saying that you approach getting to know her by acknowledging honestly and upfront that you are possibly interested in having a relationship if you guys are compatable. That is the best way to go about it.

 

If you think someone is amazingly beautiful and in your mind you want to see if she is more than just beauty, then becoming "friends" first is not acknowledging to her that you want to see if there is more there. You would be disguising that fact. She thinks that you are just wanting to be friends. Besides, how do you want to be friends with someone whom you don't know? If you don't know whether or not they are a good person then how do you know that you want them as your friend? You don't.

 

So no one is saying that the minute you think that you might be interested in more if she has a compatable personality that you must push a relationship agenda. Why would you want a relationship with someone you don't know? That would be foolish and superficial. That is the point about being honest and getting to know that person by going out and hanging out together through dating. Dating is nothing more than going out with someone in order to see if you are compatable. No one is making commitments, no one is investing anything costly, you're simply being honest and open that you want to see if there is more, and if so you can have a relationship. Both parties know the other's intentions in getting to know each other better to see if there is something there.

 

Granted I base much on apperances, but I base a lot more on what is inside... and until you know them, you don't know what is inside. So, the honest thing is to take the time needed to get to know them.

 

Honestly, openly, and that is best done through going out and dating. If both people know it is a date, whether it be a walk in the park, a lunch, over a cup of coffee, etc, then you're both being completely honest with each other.

 

Granted, there are women that need validation for their looks and will respond to men that flirt with them and hit on them before these men know the rest of them... but I tend to think these are the women that know that their looks are the best they have to offer... hence the shallow lowbrow comment.

 

Of course there are women like that out there, and there are guys out there was well who are just looking for sex and validation. We aren't discussing those people though, we are talking about people interested in establishing a relationship and in order to do that you need to meet people and start off on the right foot.

 

No, you are showing them you are willing to get to know them before you commit to anything more. It shows you are confident enough in yourself that you can take your time. Don't confuse not flirting with lacking confidence... it is about choosing when to flirt, and with whom. I'm very selective about whom I choose to do that with.

 

There are other ways to get to know someone, ways that are more honest. You don't have to pretend that your goals are to be just friends in order to get to know someone. You can very easily tell a girl you just met that she seems really cool and that you'd like to take them out for dinner to get to know her better. That's being hoenst and confident. That's the best way to go about it.

 

The best relationships I've had were with women I got to know before we became a couple. I stand by this belief. The worst relationships were in the case where we just rushed into it based on physical attraction.

 

I agree. I got to know my fiance' before becoming boyfriend/girlfriend. I met her at a club, got her number, called her up and set up dates, and hung out. We seemed to like each other and we kept going out on more dates realizing more and more that we were very compatable and then one day we went ahead and became exclusive.

 

What I didn't do was talk to her and then go home empty handed. I didn't think to myself that I need to call up my friend Rob who knew her and try to get him to have her hang out with us. I didn't then talk to her and act like we were becoming fast pals. I didn't eventually become pals like that and then start hanging out with her as friends without Rob around-since I didn't need him around to hang out with her anymore. I didn't do this for months before finally telling her that I really like her and want to go out with her.

Nor did I look her up on myspace and keep tabs on how she acted. I didn't try to friend her by saying, "Hey it was nice talking to you that one night, you can friend me if you ever want to talk or meet new people." to see if I could get to know her that way.

 

I was straight forward and confident. I didn't offend her by asking her out, I didn't give her the impression that I was looking to marry her or bed her, I simply acknowledged to her that I was interested in getting to know her better because she seemed like someone I might be interested in dating. I asked her for her number and then called her up later to see if she wanted to go out to eat with me. We then talked and got to know each other better that way. Honestm upfront, and with confidence. I was also very fun because I was a light conversationalist, I joked and showed a sense of humor, and had a great time. This is all flirting.

 

...it can take many other forms... studying together, playing a sport together, etc., and with many women those other forms are much better received. I know a lot of women that don't like to be flirted with by guys they don't know, but they do enjoy it from guys they do know (if they like them).

 

If you are making an effort to get to know these girls that way, that's fine as long as they know you are doing it because you want to see if you are compatable.

 

As far as girls that don't like to be flirted with by guys that don't know... I think you are saying that with a different type of flirting in mind than what I am, because being light, funny, outgoing, and honest with a girl is not something I've ever seen a sane girl not enjoy doing, unless perhaps her boyfriend/husband was around and she wanted to let him know that she's going to respect their relationship. Who doesn't like to joke, flirt, and have a funfilled conversation? If a girl didn't then I wouldn't waste another second getting to know her. I like happy and unjudgemental people and if someone is that uptight then I think my life would be better not knowing them.

 

Perhaps I went too far, but some posters here act like they know everything and have all the answers, and write in a rather dogmatic manner. Nobody knows all the answers.

 

Everyone has an opinion, some more learned than others.

 

I just believe that people will get better advice, on average - there are alwlays exceptions, from friends than from an anonymous poster that doesn't know them that well, and whos agenda nobody can know.

 

I think that the chances are better of you getting non biased advice from a stranger rather than a friend. Especially women who by nature tend to be more nurturing than guys as well as more emotionally motivated on average. Most women I have known were more likely to be comforting than breaking down exactly what I was doing wrong without fear of offending me, which is why most of the advice I received from my female friends in my younger days always ended up making me run in circles and confused.

 

I have no motivation on these forums other than to help people solve their problem, and I do this because no one helped me but myself. I don't want it to be that hard for others.

[Dating Coach]

I'd have to agree with QuietWolf. Diggity, I may be inexperienced with girls but I won't fully believe that all you need is good "skills" to get women.

 

No one said that. I would suggest that you try rereading everything again to see if you can grasp the concept. In order to do this however you will need to have an open mind as well as be willing to understand that what you have been thinking might be completely wrong. You can't help someone when they refuse to see anything outside of their box.

 

Putting it that way just supports the "player" type of person, somone that may be fantastic at flirting and talking to women but have selfish intentions.

 

How does that support the "player" type? Who said anything about having selfish intentions? I would wager that you aren't understanding what is being said here because no where anywhere have we suggested anything of the sort.

 

If you want to be sincere in meeting people you can't just look at it as using your "skills" on them. That just shows you know how to flirt, big deal; just because you get results doesn't mean it is the best method.

 

It means exactly that, it's just that your coming to a different conclusion because you're missing what is actually being said. Likely do to some preconceived notion about what we're talking about.

 

Your social skills are your ability to confidently and efficiently communicate what you want and mean to other people for the best results. By increasing social skills such as "flirting" we are not suggesting lying, or playing, or being false. It is as simple as being able to communicate what you want in the most effective and fun way that you can. This has a HUGE effect on how people will receive you.

 

If someone says, "Do I look fat in these jeans?" and you respond jokingly, "Oh yeah, hideously fat." your joke can be interpreted by that person in many ways. A person will well developed social skills will be able to communicate that joke in a way where the person will take it as playful banter. If you're not socially skilled then your joke could be taken to heart and you could seriously offend someone. Why wouldn't you want to be able to communicate what you really mean in the most clear way possible?

 

I could be the most unconfident creep out there and still manipulate women using "skills."

 

I think you underestimate women. How skilled can you be with communication if you have no confidence that you can do it? You think women are this easily duped?

 

You have to understand that just because a method of meeting women works doesn't mean it will get you the kind of results you want (by that I mean the kind of girls you like).

 

Of course not, no one controls the universe, however being able to communicate what you really want to say and do is going to maximize your potential to do achieve your goals. None of this changes what is in your heart, you're simply able to communicate what's in your heart better. Maybe after you have your heart shattered a few more times you'll be motivated in learning how to express yourself better.

 

Personally I'd rather take my chances on talking to girls casually and getting to know them at least a little before flirting (so I know if I am interested in them); and even at that point not spending 100% of my time trying to hit on her.

 

Who said you have to hit on them 100% of the time? That would be getting way ahead of yourself. I'm simply am trying to give you advice that would cause you to hit on someone more than your current 0% of the time.

 

I think what QuietWolf is trying to say, in my understanding, that yeah flirting is used to make it clear that you are interested in a girl, but if thats all you do then you will come on too strong.

 

Then QuietWolf would be wandering off of the point because no one is telling you to make flirting 100% of your communicating. In fact I don't think anyone assigned a percentage to it at all. I believe we are just trying to get you to be more honest and fun to relate with.

 

And of course there will be a lot of girls out there that all you have to do is flirt with and use those "skills" and those alone and they will be attracted to you, but just to those skills.

 

You keep seperating social skills from your personality when those social skills are really an extention of your personality. Being able to be honest and communicate doesn't change what is in your heart at all, it's allowing you to do the communicating better.

 

For whatever reason, I think my "perfect catch" won't let me just pick her up in one fell swoop, she'll make me work for it; make me get to know the real her before she warms up to me and me to her.

 

You'd be wrong then. Not many women, and no healthy woman that I've met wants a guy to work his * * * off in an attempt to prove to her that it's okay for her to warm up to him. You're putting women up on a pedastle above you and that my friend is going to continue to show women how little respect you have for yourself. How are women supposed to respect you when you aren't respecting yourself? Plus, what fun is it for her to have you chase after her screaming for attention and begging for it through continual favors and flattery? That guy is deseration to the extreme. Who wants that? No healthy woman. In order to value something that something must have value. If you aren't showing self value how can someone else put a high value on you?

 

No, you don't chase after a woman trying to prove to her how worthy you might be if she could just give you a chance, because doing so shows that you aren't worthy. A worthy person doesn't beg like that. You need to learn how to have the confidence that you do deserve someone just as much as that someone deserves you.

 

We still haven't had many girls' opinions, on how they feel guys should approach them. Strong flirting vs. talking and a little flirting.

 

You think those are the choices? You'd be wrong. However since you brought it up...

 

I “friend-zone” guys who are not showing romantic interest in me within the first few times we hang out.

 

Romantic interest could include referring to us going out as a DATE, not “getting together” or “grabbing coffee.”

 

It could include acting the way a guy who wants to date you acts- picks you up for the date, opens doors, walks you to your door at the end of the night, etc.

 

It could also include touching me in small ways (touching my arm while we are talking, putting his hand on the small of my back as we enter or leave somewhere, etc.)

 

And obviously, kissing me.

 

If I am not seeing any of these signs within the first few times we spend together, I conclude that he is not interested in me in a dating type way. Or he is, but not enough to act on it.

[QuietWolf]

Everyone has an opinion, some more learned than others.

I wasn't going to put it that way, but that is exactly how I feel... your opinion does not reflect much learning. It is young. But you have time.

[Dating Coach]

I wasn't going to put it that way, but that is exactly how I feel... your opinion does not reflect much learning. It is young. But you have time.

 

So that's how you are going to do it? I was courteous to you, polite, willing to listen, and I gave you a lot of very well thought out points and you didn't even bother to respond. You simply jumped into insulting me.

 

Look, I tried to have a good conversation, but you can't talk to someone who doesn't have the courtesy to discuss things with an open mind. We might as well stop posting to each other because it would be pretty pointless to talk to someone who clearly is unbudging and unwilling to listen.

[QuietWolf]

Right, and your 'some more learned than others' remark wasn't a veild attempt at an insult? What was it then?

 

I don't really see you listening much to other points of view, I just see you posting the same dogma over and over again.

 

I just know that some of the people posting here are pretty young, and if some other points of view aren't posted, they might start to believe that speed seduction stuff.

 

Why do other points of view scare you so much? Why can't you just accept that I don't believe what you believe, and that what I believe works very well for me, and has for others?

 

You sound to me like you have an agenda.

 

Can you show me a single post of yours where you have asked for any advice? I've only seen the ones where you act like you know everything.