This involves my fiancee again, and is EVEN MORE TROUBLING. 14 year old girls.....

[finewhine]

Caro, you're awesome. You're really giving the best advice here.

[Scout]

Wow, Caro - your story is riveting! I think anyone who is involved with someone who has a history of flakiness/conflicting character sides should read this.

 

Many congratulations on your upcoming marriage! Your fiance sounds like a real gem. And so do you!

[caro33]

Thanks guys, that's really nice of you. I was afraid I had overdone it with the long post(s)!

 

The embarrassing thing is that as I went back in time, heaps of things came back to me, some after I had submitted my post. Some were a really big deal too, so it amazes me that I had so thoroughly rationalised that behaviour and allowed myself to stay there. Just because he was sweet and he thought he loved me!

 

The habits you get into like my habit with that relationship are a bit toxic, but it's like the frog in boiling water example people use sometimes, where if you have boiling water and drop a frog into it, the frog will hop straight out. However if you pop the frog into room temperature water and bring it to the boil slowly, the frog will just stay there. Al Gore mentioned this in his doco about climate change, but it works for those of us in toxic relationships too. So those others of us reading posts on enotalone, or hearing about our other friends' relationship woes say 'what the hell! jump out of the water! it's boiling!' but those of us who have been in the pot all along (eg the original poster in most cases, the person who's living the relationship) are instead struggling to rationalise the situation: 'the water's not THAT hot, you're not in here with me to know, and hey it was cool a while ago'.

 

I now look at the me who was with the 10 year ex and think 'what on earth was I thinking', but I have the sneaking suspicion that the younger me would always make those same choices. If the person is nice enough and appears to want to please you, and keeps saying things were 'mistakes', you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. You forgive each mistake and justify it because it was always a slightly different issue, and surely that same thing won't happen again....It took ages for me to realise that it's not about any one situation and its details; really dumb stuff that happens frequently is ITSELF the red flag about a person's maturity, stability, decision-making capability, and ability to follow through on their commitments. But the really scary thing is that I never realised that when I was with the ex - if he'd come back to me in those first few months I would have taken him back. To this day I thank whatever forces were responsible for saving me from that life of compromise and relationship mediocrity (and who know what else as time went on and our responsibilities increased).

 

engagedkitty, I hope I am not sounding lecturing or using the age thing too much with you. Once again, my issues are my issues, and don't necessarily relate to yours. However, if there's any more help I can give, please let me know.

[Rabican]

I would drop him like a hot potato... but thats just me.

 

Obviously his morals, and yours are in two different places. I think he has a thing for younger girls, granted, there are some hotty teenagers out there, but for christs sake, unless you are a fellow teenager... you leave that alone for more reasons than one. Its just wrong to even say the things he was saying, let alone maybe act on it. If his resistance to 'peer pressure' is so poor, Id be hard pressed to trust him around another woman ever. If he does that just because this tim guy called him a * * * * * what do you think hes gonna do if some hot chick comes on to him, and starts flirting with him. Hes gonna have no willpower, no loyalty, no gut check ability to do the right thing. Id always wonder if hes gonna cheat on you, or worse do something illegal with a younger girl/woman.

 

Do what you will, but I would toss him to the curb.

[Siriana]

I'm back into discussion, a little bit late , but let me answer you question.

I used to believe that people can change. They can, in a way, but not completely. I had experience with 2 guys who were little bit f.... up and no, they haven't changed.

 

For example if a person had some horrible life experiences that affected her, she can improve - especcialy with some help (professional, of course) and it takes a lot of determination and effort from her part, everyday efforts and contemplation. Also, I think some things always stay as a part of a persons behaviour and as subconscious fears.

But sad to be said I also think that sometimes you can be dragged down, slowed down in life, by such partner. If you're coming from the same place,with similar potentials and barriers from past experiences it's o.k. But if you could evolve much better at the present moment, than this person with problems is slowing you down.

 

For example, you say you would like to take grad school - but you still don't have all the thing sorted out to decide what path to take. I guarantee you, if you were free of your current doubts and insecurities in a relationship, you would have some time to deal with your problems and decisions. Alo, I guarantee you you need to choose your path, you can't wait too long. now it's the right time to continue your education. if you take that path, your perspective will change a lot. Trust me.

 

Alos caro 33 gave you the greates advice in it's last post. Think about it.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

I feel for you with this one, it’s hard, and it’s particularly so when your guy is nice and seems to want to change to please you. But yes, you need to try and ignore than as best you can, because the real issue is if he has got what it takes to be a good life partner for you. If you are really unsure about this I strongly suggest you at least delay the wedding.

 

Definitely, I agree. I've said that to him. He will have to prove himself.

 

And the rest of your post really has made me think. Honestly, and truly yes, your post has honestly made me start thinking, from another perspective. I can't say I've decided to leave him because as I've said, I'm willing to give anyone a second chance. However, your post has made me see how things could very possibly turn out. Especially because so many of the things you are saying just sound so similar to the guy I'm with, as in shirking responsibility, the rules seeming 'blurry' and outside influences that he caves into and ultimately blames- (when in fact he is the one who made the choice to do what he does!) The things you described occurring just have so many parallels to my situation. And so many similiarities. Like the many excuses and so on. "At least I didn't sleep with her..." your ex said, and mine says, "At least I didn't do anything with her!" which later evolved into "I wasn't going to do anything with her, I swear!" Errr, yeaaaaaah, because she told you no! But what if she HAD been legal and HAD said yes? Or, you were STILL under the false impression that she WAS legal (pfffft)? ...and she said yes? He was trying to look bad in front of his friend supposedly and his friend was pressuring him to say those things, and so he did it. What if she had said yes? And his friend said, "go for it man"... what then? Would he NOT still feel the same pressure to impress his friend by committing those acts? And your ex said, "she made him" and my man says "he made me!" and also "she made me!" and etc. Which also sounds similar to incidents from his past I had asked about.

 

 

The thing you said also about "couldn't be held responsible" strikes such cords too. I know back in the day my man used to drink a lot and do drugs and stuff like that, but stopped when his daughter was born. And stopped drinking at the beginning of this year, and shortly after we started seeing eachother. And he means well, as you said. He says he means to cut off contact with people like the neighbor who is a bad influence on him. And he pretty much has. In fact, he hates him and wants to get his revenge on him. Which I won't allow because it would probably involve jail time and during his worser days when he was younger, he went to jail a lot. I can say a few things about him, he HAS changed from the person he used to be. I did not know him back in those days but oh, I've heard some stories. He was always goodhearted and meant well, but also drank excessively, did drugs, and went to jail a lot. This makes me think that maybe, if he has changed from that sort of person to the person he is now (who has been staying out of trouble for 5 years) that he could change in the other way as well. But still, he seems to think he can shirk responsibility, not spend the time he should be spending with his daughter, (though when he is with her he treats her wonderfully but I don't think that's enough), and seems to have to ask his mom's opinion on everything he does. And he seems to think other people should do things for him. Like, take care of his own child and buy all the things she needs. God forbid his mother asks him for some money to take care of HIS OWN daughter. Nooo. He b*tches and moans about that, and when I point out well yeah, your mom's taking care of YOUR daughter, damn right she should be asking you for money especially since you don't pay child support! and he makes excuses ... "yeah, but...." and blah blah. Like he just doesn't GET IT. And subsequently shirks his responsibility. And blames people for things. And, and ... .. ... everything. Like your ex, he can't pick up after himself, organize himself, take iniative on things he knows he should be doing, (like using his computer certifications to get an actual career instead of just a job, or starting his own computer shop), he starts things and stops and starts on something else, he can't ever finish anything... (though granted- he has ADHD- I wonder if your ex had that as well?)

 

And the whole mother/counselor position- having to talk him through every decision and so on and so on and him being grateful... and seeming to 'get' things after we talk about it... and not too good applying those learnings ever again... (i.e., not being able to associate very well.....) is all so familiar. Sooooooooo familiar.

 

I've never really asked him for advice though.. it's always about him taking advice (and him agreeing and 'getting' what it is he needs to do and later on doing what he wants anyway, or doing what would take the least amount of effort really)... from me. I should ask him for advice on something and see what happens...

 

but Caro, you have no idea how much I appreciate your post. I am going to give him a second chance. But I will be very careful, and watchful and the next time he makes one of those 'mistakes' that's only a mere 'mistake' in his eyes and can be blamed on 'everyone else' .... then I'm out of here. Because I've read about what happened to you and I see how things could very possibly go. So I will always refer to your post- not as a bible, but as some simple guidelines, being that so many of the things you described I can associate with the guy I'm with. I'm very tempted to print your post, hide it in my underwear drawer, and read it daily just to remind me of what I'm risking here. Thank you very very much for your post. Also- congratulations on your upcoming wedding, and congratulations on finding a wonderful guy who meets all your needs. And thank you also for the wonderful advice- I'm definitely not disregarding it, I hope no one thinks that's what I'm doing by staying. I'm definitely keeping everyone's advice in the back of my mind, always.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

"Hotty" teens or not, people old enough to know better shouldn't even bother looking! At least, this is how I feel. But, you're right. And yes, I do wonder what will happen if a hot girl comes on to him. And probably will always wonder if he's going to cheat. Some days, on my more paranoid and insecure days, it's not "will he cheat?" it's a matter of "When will he cheat, and with who?" Or, "how much time will I waste with him before he starts cheating?"

 

And I am the type of girl who considers even flirting with other girls behind my back to be cheating, and I'm well aware anyone's capable of that. My ex would flirt with his coworkers behind my back and have crushes on them... and try to write them little notes and try to get with them, pretty much. Which is emotional infidelity while not actually physical- it's still cheating in my book. Plus, he later on did physically cheat. I'm well aware of how things start.. it all starts with seeing a pretty girl... then starts with flirting and mutual attraction... and goes on from there. I just can't see anyone resisting that sort of stuff.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

I think you're right about some things always being part of a person's behavior, character, and subconscious.. and I admit, I'm thinking to myself, 'how is someone who's always been the type to hit on girls like that going to change overnight just because he loves someone?' It's not very likely, is it?

 

You're right, I'd probably be free to do so much more with myself if I wasn't tied up in this whole mess of a situation. It's hard to get started and choose a path. I know Caro gave me some great advice, I am definitely thinking about it.

[caro33]

engagedkitty you are welcome. I wish you much happiness. I have to say though, that the information you posted about your guy's (lack of) responsibility for his child screams problems to me. This could be your future with your own child we're talking about here – there may well be a corollary to this in your own future with him. He's just not ready for a commitment to anyone yet it seems, including himself. Perhaps he won't be ever, or at least for a long time.

 

Will you please do me a favour and set yourself a time frame? Say, 'if I am not happy with this situation by X date, I will walk', and then define to yourself what being 'happy' with the situation means. It might include:

 

- I believe I can trust him not to let himself down around alcohol

- I believe I can trust him around other women, where he will not be disrespectful, hit on them, or appear to hit on them under any circumstances

- I believe I can trust him to keep control of himself, understand the consequences of his actions, and not end up in jail

- I am comfortable that he is stepping up to the financial responsibility of his daughter and appreciating his mother's care of his child

- I believe he is committed to doing what is necessary to improve his career/job opportunities to take care of his current and future responsibilities

- I trust that he will make his own decisions, even in the face of others' opinions

- I trust he will always take my opinion seriously, but be able to have a meaningful argument if he feels differently

- I believe he is capable (and interested) to make time to discuss important issues with me, and to add value to my own decision-making

 

You will need to come up with your own signs of worthiness, this was my front of mind stuff. Perhaps just going through this exercise will help consolidate what it is you need to look for, and help you know, when the time has come, whether you are seeing it or not.

 

If you think the answers to some or all of the above are 'no' but are prepared to live with that, ask yourself what you would say to a friend, or family member you love, if they said to you 'I am planning to marry a man who I can't trust [fill in issue], what do you think?'. If you truly put yourself in a bystander's shoes, how do you feel? I continued to ride through my discomfort on that, and it's not a good idea. The whole 'but you're not in this relationship, you don't see him when he's alone with me, he really is a good person' excuse I used to use came up pretty short in the end. And it's even more embarrassing now I have met great men since the ex, who would never dream of getting themselves in these dodgy situations and having their women doubt them. Self-respect and all…

 

Get in touch any time you like, and hey, I have plenty more of the dumb ex stories if you want more material!

 

A final suggestion: perhaps you could go travelling, see the world. Save up and travel around Asia, see the beaches of Croatia, the ruins in Rome, the castles in Germany, the lavender fields in France, pull beers in Edinburgh to top up your funds, backpack around South America etc (I've assumed you're in the US for some reason). So many options. It's inspiring, life changing, perspective and space giving. An awesome experience, especially when you're young enough to enjoy it, are not tied down etc. What do you think? You can come back and then take a completely different view of your place in the world and your life options, including your guy.

[pregnantkitty_1985]

It screams problems to me too. In fact, it's a really big red flag to me. And though I've said things about it before, he kind of says what he thinks I want to hear but really doesn't seem to "get it". I do know he really loves his child but is immature and not ready to care for her. Though he says otherwise, the truth of the matter is in the fact that he doesn't spend the time with her that he should! Or buy her a single thing. He seems to think it's his mother's responsibility. The little girl's own mother isn't even allowed to be around her daughter. Wouldn't you think that would give him that much more incentive to spend time with the little girl, who is virtually parentless because they're both irresponsible parents? He's allowed to see her whenever he wants. Yet doesn't take that opportunity. And it pisses me off and also bothers me, 'cause I think what if I accidentally got pregnant by him? . (How would you deal with that situation? As many times as I've brought it up either directly or indirectly/subtly and he still doesn't seem to "get it" or doesn't want to "get it" because in his own deluded head he thinks he's a 'great' father... He cites examples of his daughter running to him joyfully whenever we go to his mom's house as reasons why he's a great daddy... but the truth of the matter is, yes she is indeed running towards him because she loves him, but also because she MISSES him because he doesn't SPEND ANY TIME WITH HER or have her over to his house! She cries when he goes back home! It's very sad to me. It's like he's a big irresponsible child- loves his kid but would rather do other things than spend time with her... like tinkering with his computers, doing things with me, doing stuff for other people... he puts her last and it's a shame. It's a big issue in my eyes. Big, big issue. He always goes on about how I'm gonna be her new 'mommy' and so on ... why, so I can be there to spend time with her and take care of her and do the things he should be doing? Hmm. What would you do??.)

 

Yes I will definitely do you that favor and set a time frame. In fact, it sounds like an excellent idea. What would be your time frame out of curiosity, weeks or months? I'm thinking months but I don't know how many, I'm not sure- I need more guidance please, what would you do?

 

And those are very good guidelines to go by, I just have to add a little more like:

 

-I believe he will not lie about things anymore, and will uphold to my high standards of honesty

-I believe his maturity is progressing and he is striving to live and learn as a real adult

 

.........and we'll see what the outcome is, whether he, in the timeframe I come up with, has proved himself capable of doing all of those things.

 

I would tell my friends not to (not marry the individual who cannot be trusted.) I realized I am making excuses for him to, after reading through all my posts. Like "Oh, he's nice though, he's always trying to do stuff with me!" Well that doesn't mean a damn thing if he can't be honest or trustworthy! We'll see if he can, in the end, prove himself. The odds seem stacked against him.

 

I would love to hear some of your dumb ex stories anytime you feel like getting it out. It feels good to just let everything out about past issues sometimes. I think it's part of how we grow as individuals, looking back on past mistakes and how we've progressed/evolved. Maaaan, that would be so cool to travel to all those countries. Yep I'm in the US. Where are you? I'm guessing either in the UK or Australia or New Zealand, judging by the english spellings. I want to see all the other countries in the world, particularly Sweden and Norway and the UK (especially England, republic of Ireland, Scotland..) I have always, always wanted to see the world instead of what I see everyday. My grandfather has went to places like Norway, England, Germany, and etc and loved it. That would be such a great idea. I think I should try that.

[caro33]

Your statements about your fiancé and his daughter are clear and sensible, and your concerns about his capacity to be a mature father - and how you might fit into this equation – seem fully justified. This would seem to be your major indicator of his ability to be the man you need and expect as a future husband. If you accidentally got pregnant and kept the child, you would probably find yourself trapped in a frustrating and fragile existence that you and your child would not deserve. Or you could go the other route and find yourself alone and without support at a traumatic and painful time.

 

This issue, along with the jail time, the past problems, the lack of self-control, and the lack of adult responsibility in general combine to a big fat OH NO DON'T DO IT, RUN, RUN AWAY for me. That's always easy to say I know, but your life can amount to so much more…

 

Here's another warning tale for you - I have a friend who stayed with a guy like your's and mine (ex) and they stuck it out for 13 years. She fell pregnant by accident, and now has a 2 year old. This friend of mine is now going through a divorce because the whole situation became untenable, her husband was a big child-man who seemed to actually resent his obligations and responsibilities, and drove my friend nuts. She couldn't rely on him for anything, and he continually let her down, particularly once they became parents. He decided in the past couple of years to become a producer in the entertainment industry (ads, movies), and put his job first. He would never be there for child minding when he said he would, and then accuse her of not supporting HIM when he chose to do 70 hour weeks in distant locations and would only tell her the morning he was leaving. Keep in mind she's trying to hold down a job too, as well as care for their daughter and make sure she is looked after by someone. He would become petulant when she took him to task, and there was some violence in recent years.

 

Now he is a 'nice guy', but has no coping mechanisms and just wasn't up to being there as a husband and father. He never 'got better', or at least, never in that fundamental way. He crumbled when he had to deliver on his promises, and then tried to blame everyone else. Like your guy, he also prides himself on being a good father, as long as it's on his terms; that is, when he doesn't want to play on his computer, work, socialise, etc. His daughter is a baby, and is always pleased to see him, which he takes as a sign he's a good man and great dad. (He's deeply insecure, I think he knows the truth at heart and hates himself for it, as well as hating my friend for 'making him feel that way'.)

 

My friend was heartbroken in Feb this year when it ended (he left, but she also pushed him out because the stress had gotten to her) and he swiftly took up with another woman. But now she is just angry, embarrassed and shocked. She loves her daughter dearly and doesn't regret having her, but she also cannot believe she stayed with the loser guy so long. So what if he was fun at parties and loved her – people like this don't even love themselves, so their 'love' for others is also fragile. Their love for others is also fleeting when they start to do better for themselves – it's a somewhat superficial existence where the partner is really like a life crutch that gets used, resented and is never immune from being tossed away when the person feels more confident.

 

My friend is nearing 40 now and has her own insecurities about her value on the relationship market. I think she is also punishing herself for not having more faith in herself way back when, and pursuing a different life when she had the chance.

 

Back to you - re the timeframe, I don't know. I guess months? Perhaps 6 months, with a solid review at 3 months? If you don't give him some decent time you might find that when the date arrives you are tempted to give it 'just a bit longer' and then it drags on and you then tell yourself you didn't need a date really, hey he's not so bad, and sink back into accepting the situation. If you give it 6 months there are no excuses, and 6 months is still not much compared to the rest of your life. Are there any major milestones for you around then that you can staple this decision to?

 

If I was you in an ideal world (ie no financial constraints, anything stopping you/me), I would try and put my life first, and work toward my own goal or personal project, whether it be further study, travel, or both. I would try to get away from my home town/county for a while in any event, to get some headspace. I would then slot the fiancé decision into that, perhaps for when I left, or when I returned. With you progressing your own life like this, the whole thing is less likely to be all about him and your (potential) loss. You might get a better sense of all you will gain by being on your own to meet people and be in places that truly are worthy of you.

 

Yes, I'm in Melbourne, Australia. I've been to a few places but wish I had travelled more. I was never brave enough, always nervous and putting other things first. Now I'm older I regret not just doing these things when I had the chance. Took myself to London, Paris, Barcelona a couple of years ago…Amazing. Just being there, in the cradle of western history, is mindblowing. Even the graffiti at some of the sites is 1000 years old, I love that. It's hard to take yourself so seriously when you are travelling, and I found it was a great way to take stock and truly try on for size (even if in imagination only) the different life choices I could make.

[Siriana]

Now, if you can't travel at the moment, and I like that idea sooo much, I suggest you to try to pick up some informations about schools. As carro suggested this 6 month frame for you to carefully reasess you relationship, you could be dooing something valuable to yourself during that time. So why not picking info about education possibilites, credits, places to stay. In america it is so many possiblilites that it is amazing. I know I couldn't make such an important decision like choosing school without 6 months thinking. (In Croatia and with my budget restraints it was pretty easy to choose - I studied and finished economy in my bith town, altough if I had a chance I would go study design in Italy or the capital or Croatia) So even if you have money limit, you can make a good decison - I don't regret mine for example.

I am perhaps boring, but to me it looks like it would be a huge mistake for you not to continue your education. You are really smart, eloquent,and jung enough to be whatever you want. Dooing some low paid job, surrounded with people who can't force you to be better at your job, would be a dead end for you. Do you know what are your qualities, what kind of job you would like to do? First, the job from your dreams, than corrected with reality check up?

 

Wow, carro how do you know about beaches from Croatia? This was a huge surprise. Probably you have someone from Croatia, since you're from Autralia.

[caro33]

I agree with syrix, the education aspect is important. It can add immense value to your prospects and open up all sorts of doors. I dropped out of Uni the first time around, stuffed around for a while, then went back when i was 21 and started again in a different degree, taking it through to post grad. I don't think i had any idea what I wanted to do until then, and even then it changed a lot. But I went from working in a call centre as a shift worker to a series of much more challenging policy roles in government and major companies where people take me seriously and I get to exercise my brain. And of course the pay is many times better.

 

Once you've found what turns you on and pursued it (and obviously it doesn't have to be study or travel, can be anything), nothing can take that away from you. It puts some of those frustrating relationships in their place.

 

Anyway, am sounding like some kind of travel/study zealot so will stop now

 

syrix, actually I know very little about Croatia, but I had a crush on a Croatian guy once and read up all about his country so i could have some insight into his background. Apparently your landscape/beaches are spectacular!

[Siriana]

syrix, actually I know very little about Croatia, but I had a crush on a Croatian guy once and read up all about his country so i could have some insight into his background. Apparently your landscape/beaches are spectacular!

 

LOL I see we're both into education! Now engagedkitty has to become a member of education club.