20 years old soon, and feeling out of place

[ShySoul]

I think it is very difficult for those who need physical attraction to understand how someone can only be attracted to someone's personality and not need a pretty face and a beautiful body to go with it. Until they have experienced it themselves, they won't be able to comprehend it because they need to have the physical attraction as well as the personality.

 

Exactly. People have to experience it to become believers usually. To them, seeing is believing. To others, believing is seeing.

[darkblue]

Technically: we all need physical attraction.

I thought we agreed upon that..

[ShySoul]

What we all need is the emotionally attraction. The physical attraction isn't what's needed, its a by product of the emotional attraction... at least for some of us to start with and for everyone else eventually when they find the right person.

[darkblue]

So now it is a bonus?

[ShySoul]

How did you get bonus? I said by product. That means that once the emotional connection is there, the physical will naturally follow.

 

The way I see it, EVERYONE is physically attractive. It's not a matter of someone being physically attractive, its of us recognizing that attractiveness. It's silly to think about matters of physically attractiveness, because we all are attractive in our own way. If someone recognizes it, good. If they don't, too bad for them.

 

We don't need the physical attraction, that follows on its own terms. We may want someone to be physically attractive to us on first glance. But we do not need it. What we need is an emotional connection, even an intellectual conversation, or the relationship isn't going anywhere. Once that connection is formed, the physical attraction takes place.

[darkblue]

EVERYONE is physically attractive

 

Even disfigured, ape-looking, bug-eyed rapists?

 

Attraction is not based on your decisions - you cannot say, "Oh, I think I will be attracted to her, today!"

It can't be helped. It can grow over time, but most people tend to approach someone whom they ALREADY feel physical attraction for.

[OmegaMan]

Darkblue

 

I agree with you. I believe there´s a question of honesty here. I think the morally correct thing to say is that appearances aren´t important. But beauty is one important component of relationships. I completely agree with you. I´m sorry but I don´t believe people who are completely detached from appearances. I think they refuse to admit this little part of them who is superficial.

[OmegaMan]

The way I see it, EVERYONE is physically attractive. It's not a matter of someone being physically attractive, its of us recognizing that attractiveness. It's silly to think about matters of physically attractiveness, because we all are attractive in our own way. If someone recognizes it, good. If they don't, too bad for them.

 

Oh please. C´mon, don´t tell me seriously believe that everyone is attractive. Please, for the sake of rationality, please admit that this statement is false.

[darkblue]

Sheyda - are you saying that physical attraction is not at all necessary?

[darkblue]

If you do not judge anyone on pysical attraction - how do you choose who to approach, or let close to you?

Personality wise, there are a lot of 'nice' men out there..

[ShySoul]

Sheyda, I'm always impressed with your words and beliefs. Do you ever get tired of people not understanding and looking at you different for thinking like this, for even implying you are lying? Or are you able to let it roll off you?

 

I think the morally correct thing to say is that appearances aren´t important. But beauty is one important component of relationships. I completely agree with you. I´m sorry but I don´t believe people who are completely detached from appearances. I think they refuse to admit this little part of them who is superficial.

 

One, note that you yourself admits it is superficial. Two, I've never said that I don't notice people I think are physcially attractive. I've said that I'm not picky and that a lot of girls would be considered cute based solely on appreance. What I'm saying is that it is not a necessity for someone whom I would be interested in going out with, that I don't make choices about who I like based upon outwards appearance. I still have a physical side, but it is separated from the more important aspects - the emotional, intellectual, spiritual. The physical is light years beyond those aspects in terms of how important or vital they are. Once you have those three, the physical falls into place.

 

Oh please. C´mon, don´t tell me seriously believe that everyone is attractive. Please, for the sake of rationality, please admit that this statement is false.

 

Even disfigured, ape-looking, bug-eyed rapists?

 

DB, think about what you said. You asked if a rapist is attractive. Most people would not find him attractive, but not because of appearance. They are disgusted by his actions. It is not the outside, it is what is in the person that makes them unattractive. Even these people have someone who considers them attractive. A friend was just telling me a story of her being on jury duty and convicting a rapist, who had a wife and child. That wife thought he was attractive.

 

Everyone is physically attractive to someone. Thus all people all physically attractive in their own way. What makes someone unattractive is their attitude and personality. I do not find someone who lies and manipulates others to be attractive and I wouldn't consider going out with a girl like that, even if I thought they were cute on the outside. On the otherhand, someone I didn't notice physically, but whom I saw had a great heart and went out of her way for others, I would go out with.

 

If you do not judge anyone on pysical attraction - how do you choose who to approach, or let close to you?

Personality wise, there are a lot of 'nice' men out there..

 

Personally, I don't believe in needed to approach someone. I let nature take its course. I will meet women through the natural course of events -in class, at work, the person on the bus I see everyday, the person my friend introduced me to, the person who messaged me in a chat room. I talk to these women and get to know them. I get to know who they are, see what we have in common, what kind of a person they are. And then I have fallen for them because of the kind heart I see, their intellect, the similar interests and values.

 

Who you get close to is a matter of being able to sense it is right. "Nice" is not the only factor. It is who you have things in common with. It is who shares your beliefs and values. It is who you feel comfortable with, who makes you feel safe and special. It is who you just see something special in, who you just feel a deep connection with. None of these things can be decided based upon physical appearance.

[darkblue]

Shy, so you would not approach any woman, on the hope that eventually one will land in your lap?

Plus, you cannot tell who will be a scared little girl that will run away at the first opportunity, or who will stick with you and give you everything you want out of a relationship, can you?

 

I used 'rapist' to suggest a sleezy looking, creepy man - not essentially the acts he carries out.

[OmegaMan]

Well, if those statements are indeed true, like you say they are, this makes you quite a unique phenomenon. I think most people pay a little importance to appearances, but I have never met any who just were completely detached. That for me is a spirtual feat beyond wonder. Considering the nature of your reply, I think I might´ve insulted you when referring to honesty. I am sorry you took it that way, really.

 

Despite there being a few guys out there with some of the personality traits I wanted, we were still very incompatible because most of them I met had no long-term goals except maybe getting completely drunk next weekend. They did not believe in anything and thought I was an insane weirdo for believing in what I do. They were only interested in drink, pubs, nightclubbing and one-night-stands, whereas I can't drink alcohol, pubs and nightclubs are not my thing and I am not the kind of girl to sleep around. Being a very different person from them, my life experience was in no way similar to theirs and so although they might've had some personality traits I was looking for, I knew the relationship would not work and I would be wasting all my time and effort.

 

Hm... you haven´t been lucky with your dates. I have yet to meet one person who doesn´t believe in anything. I find that people who´s main interests revolve around clubs sometimes lack the backbone to accept their individuality. As if being abnormal about that point would break their back.

 

I find, however, that if you push things a little forward and explore their universe, who they are, then, you find that they do believe in things. One of my good friend is big on clubs, one night stands and getting drunk. He does have a good heart however, is very generous and have lots to offer.

 

Right on for your complete detachment. I´m sorry you were insulted in me doubting your beliefs. Like I said, lots of people pay minimal attention to appearance, but complete detachment is something, indeed, very rare.

 

Omega Man

[ShySoul]

darkblue,

 

Interesting that you use the phrase rapist to describe a sinister looking person. That's a debating trap. When you use a word like that it automatically conjures up certain connotations that have little to do with what you were trying to get at. A rapist, or any other bad person, doesn't have to look evil, the usually are the person next door you wouldn't suspect based just on appearance. So to put them together isn't logical and distracts from the real topic. Leave that stuff to politicians.

 

I don't approach women, let them come to me or through the natural course of events. The few girls I've been interested in I have met in class, while doing a tutoring job, and just chatting away online. The one almost relationship I had, she messaged me first in a chat room. Didn't seek anything, and someone did come to me. Actually, several people have came to me.

 

Ouch. Was that intended to be a personal zing at me DB? Doesn't bother me, just surprised you would do that. But point taken. You can't always tell. Things happen, issues get in the way. But none of that has to do with physical attraction being unimportant in the face of the emotional/intellectual attraction. A relationship grounded on those things stands a better chance at lasting then one started on purely physical grounds.

 

Sheyda,

 

Thanks. I feel the same way on everything you said. I find it frustrating when it feels like everyone is judging me or that no one understands how I feel, as is usually the case. But I know that there are people who get me and who carry the same values and I don't feel as bad. I'm glad you found someone that is right for you.

 

OmegaMan,

 

You are missing the point. I don't believe either of us (and I hope I don't upset Sheyda in saying this ) are completely detached from our physical side. It's part of us just like anything else. But its so minimal to us as we are focused on everything else, that it isn't a consideration. You are right, most people aren't like this. Which is why most people can't understand it. But there are some of us out there, and that proves that initial physical attraction is not necessary for a relationship to start.

 

And while people do believe in something, I believe Sheyda meant that they didn't appear to carry many believes beyond having fun and partying. That's not something she wants to deal with and so isn't considering them. Yes, those people are good people at heart. But we don't want to deal with all the things we don't like just to get to them.

[darkblue]

Interesting that you use the phrase rapist to describe a sinister looking person. That's a debating trap. When you use a word like that it automatically conjures up certain connotations that have little to do with what you were trying to get at. A rapist, or any other bad person, doesn't have to look evil, the usually are the person next door you wouldn't suspect based just on appearance. So to put them together isn't logical and distracts from the real topic. Leave that stuff to politicians.

That was my point. I wanted to see if you would infact judge someone based on the stereotypical value that most people see that person with.

Oh well - can't blame me for trying.

And for the record - I do love politics.

 

I don't approach women, let them come to me or through the natural course of events. The few girls I've been interested in I have met in class, while doing a tutoring job, and just chatting away online. The one almost relationship I had, she messaged me first in a chat room. Didn't seek anything, and someone did come to me. Actually, several people have came to me.

But you have not been in a relationship yet.

Have you ever considered that if you did infact persue a woman, and approach them - you would, ahem, a little more experience under your belt?

You may even have met 'the one' for you... You will never know because you are so obsessed with the fact that 'nature will take its course'.

 

Ouch. Was that intended to be a personal zing at me DB? Doesn't bother me, just surprised you would do that. But point taken. You can't always tell. Things happen, issues get in the way. But none of that has to do with physical attraction being unimportant in the face of the emotional/intellectual attraction. A relationship grounded on those things stands a better chance at lasting then one started on purely physical grounds.

I thought it was subtle.

There was no physical grounds in this particular case - yet it stood no better grounds, no?

 

Shy, Shy, Shy - you are a great guy, and a good friend - but you are not as open minded as one would have hoped.

Go out tonight. To a bar. Talk to a girl based on your physical lusting for her. Never be ashamed of lust; for it is an instinct.

[ShySoul]

If Kiwifly reads this, sorry for turning your thread into a debate on the necessity of physical attraction when starting a relationship. I'm still thinking of you and hope that you are doing well.

 

That was my point. I wanted to see if you would infact judge someone based on the stereotypical value that most people see that person with.

Oh well - can't blame me for trying.

And for the record - I do love politics.

 

You love politics? Oh geez... now I have to straighten you out on that too? #-o

 

So you are trying to trap me with stereotypes? Come on now, what happened to honest discussions, no mind games? I'm not falling for it. Physical appearance tells us nothing about who a person really is.

 

But you have not been in a relationship yet.

Have you ever considered that if you did infact persue a woman, and approach them - you would, ahem, a little more experience under your belt?

You may even have met 'the one' for you... You will never know because you are so obsessed with the fact that 'nature will take its course'.

 

Thing is, I'm not looking to gain expereince or to have a relationship. I'm looking for the right relationship. If I approached a women, sure maybe I would have had dates and relationships. Doesn't mean it would have lead anywhere or that I would be any better off then I am right now. It may have even made me jaded like I see all kinds of guys who do approach girls and who have more "experience" then me. By definition, I can't be obsessed with nature taking its course. What happens simple happens. I was put in a situation where nature lead me to someone, and took a chance on it. If you read my posts you know that I say that nature will give you the opportunity, you have to capitalize on it. My best friend said it best:

 

"Life is 49% fate, 51% you. Life opens the doorways, you have to step through."

 

When it is right you know. You can feel it. Life gave me the doorway, I stepped through. Life has provided many other doorways, but my heart told me it wasn't right. Bad timing, they were seeing someone else, my heart was still with someone else... gaining experience wasn't worth doing something I knew in my soul was wrong. And if I have already met "the one" then it will work out in the end. The journey to us being together may take awhile, but it will lead us together eventually. Timing may not be right now, but it would be eventually and I would see that and make the most of it.

 

Don't pursue a relationship, the relationship will come to you. And when it does, hold onto it and don't let it go.

 

I thought it was subtle.

There was no physical grounds in this particular case - yet it stood no better grounds, no?

 

Actually, it stood great grounds had she been more willing to work through things and compromise. I think talk of marriage and that even when she tried to pull away she would come back, is at least some good ground and a sign that something was there.

 

And who said there wasn't physical grounds? Not at the start. I mean, how can the physical cause the initial attraction when you met online and don't even exchange pictures for a couple weeks, while still talking every night and feeling some attraction there. But eventually the physical attraction did grow.

 

Shy, Shy, Shy - you are a great guy, and a good friend - but you are not as open minded as one would have hoped.

Go out tonight. To a bar. Talk to a girl based on your physical lusting for her. Never be ashamed of lust; for it is an instinct.

 

Sorry, I went bar hopping with some friends twice. Went to a club once. Wrost nights of my life, not going to repeat it. None of the girls I saw there even remotely did I find attractive. For starters, if I don't drink, and they all do, thats one major turn off. If I'm not into parting or being wild, then thats not the place to meet someone I would like. And I think you and countless others have admitted before that bars aren't the best place to meet people. Believe me, I tried to see if there was any guiet and shy looking girl, but there wasn't cause thats not the place where you would find them.

 

I am open minded, I tried that didn't I and my resolution for the past year was to try one new thing a month. And I have opened my mind to all kinds of things, more so then I say most. Why don't you open your mind to the possibility that when you don't give into lust, when you don't think of the physical and seek to transcend it to something more spiritual, that it opens up possibilites and worlds you've never imagined before? We are more then instincts. We are more then animal urges. We have the potential for so much more. And the bond formed because of an emotional and spiritual connection is infintely greater then the bond of something physcial.

[darkblue]

I don't believe in spirtuality - so that one's out the window.

I have a very open mind though.

I'll check out my local librarian

[ShySoul]

darkblue,

 

Not falling for that. You can be very spiritual when you want to be, so you do believe in it. It's just hard for you to express yourself so it doesn't always come out.

 

And watch out for those librarians. You would be shocked by the stuff the pick up from all those books they are around.

[darkblue]

You are mistaking spirituatlity with philosophical comments/thoughts.

 

I know what you mean about the librarians - my librarian can write the kama sutra out from memory. Including diagrams!

[ShySoul]

Do you believe we have a spirit? Do you believe in a soul or consciousness? Or do you believe everything is purely physical?

[kiwifly]

ShySoul, it is no problem! In fact, I think I'll jump in and add my opinion to this since I believe this is always a tricky topic.

 

I think this quote from Sheyda sums up my view of how much physical attraction plays a role in relationships.

 

I think there are some people who need the physical attraction and there are others who don't and I think it is very difficult for those who need physical attraction to understand how someone can only be attracted to someone's personality and not need a pretty face and a beautiful body to go with it. Until they have experienced it themselves, they won't be able to comprehend it because they need to have the physical attraction as well as the personality.

 

In my earlier years as a teen (up until I was 16), I used to just judge everyone based on their looks. I used to only feel attracted to guys that I saw as "hot" and it would be the only way for me to feel anything towards them. If I saw anything "unattractive" about them that feeling would be lost and it would fade away.

 

But one day that changed. It was halfway through the school year and one of the guys in my class who I had hardly noticed and bothered to approach did a presentation about a topic that I was truly interested in. After that, I started to get to know him and he turned out to have many of the same interests as I did. We became good friends and still remain friends to this day, and we always joke about how I had hated him before!

 

If you had asked me before that moment if I would ever approach someone without caring about their physical appearance, I would have honestly laughed. But now, it just doesn't matter. I realized that physical appearances mean nothing, it is the person inside that counts. In fact, I've turned around completely and now I can't even tell you who is "attractive" or "unattractive." To me, everyone has a shot at being either, it just depends on their personality and who they are on the inside, not on the outside. Actually I think it's because of this that I find myself more attracted to older guys, even though some of my friends think they are "unattractve" If our personalities are on the same level, that is all that matters.

 

Now, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anybody here. I just think that it all comes down to who has experienced what! Some need that physical aspect, others just don't.

[ShySoul]

In fact, I've turned around completely and now I can't even tell you who is "attractive" or "unattractive." To me, everyone has a shot at being either, it just depends on their personality and who they are on the inside, not on the outside.

 

Beautifully put kiwifly. You're a smart one. Why guys aren't all over you I have no idea...

 

It does come down to experience. It's what I said many posts ago, the non believers can't see it until they experience it for themselves.