What’s next?

[Whirling D]

15 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I have a theory about this based on books/articles I've read, videos watched discussing avoidants and "commitmentphobes."

That they subconsciously choose people who end up being all wrong for them, too many differences and issues to overcome.

Why?  It's safer that way, emotionally.

When there are so many issues to work through etc, there's no room to achieve true emotional intimacy with each other, which being an avoidant causes them discomfort and fear.

With another woman/person more appropriate where things are relatively easy, they get bored, feel unchallenged and well, fearful that something more will be expected from them like emotional intimacy and commitment.

So they run which Whirling has admitted doing in previous relationships that were easy, flowing and the women were clear about their interest.

I posted this earlier but there are some people who feel more comfortable in the uncomfortable. 

Whirling may be one such person. 

I referred a great book discussing this many pages back but Whirling dislikes reading so it went ignored. 

Anyway, just a theory.

Thank you, rainbow. It’s just a theory.
 

Problem with theorizing on a forum like this is that you don’t really have all the information that would be relative to make such a theory anything more than conjecture.  Same with blue. I know you mean well, though.
 

A few examples… I don’t remember ever saying anything about dating someone that was easy, and I could tell you about the last five women I’ve dated, and there were specific reasons why they didn’t work out, and it had nothing to do with me being avoidant, or being more comfortable with the uncomfortable.

You probably heard a lot of this before, so I will simplify:

The lady before my ex-wife. She was from the Middle East. She was a sweetheart (we still chat on Facebook, every once, in a blue moon), but I wasn’t that attracted to her on multiple levels. She wasn’t interested in a lot of the same things I was. We didn’t think on the same level, if you will. I just didn’t find her all that interesting. I tried. She could sense that I wasn’t fully engaged. It lasted two years.  She broke it off with me, rightfully so. She met somebody that adored her shortly after.

My ex-wife: she sang all the right tunes when we first met, I found her attractive and engaging. We seemed to be interested in a lot of the same intellectual things, and even some practical things. For the first handful of years, it went fairly well. Then it began to settle in, and her painfully anxious and compulsive side began to appear. We went through countless therapists are some said they couldn’t figure it out. She ended it because she knew I wasn’t OK with anxiety being one of the prevalent features of our household. To this day, anxiety is causing extreme problems between her and our daughter.  we were basically talking about this this morning when my ex-wife couldn’t understand why my daughter is so hateful to her these days. Well… because my daughter catches the wrath of her mothers anxiety on a regular basis. To a 15 year old, that just parlays into negative energy and intolerable doubt. I don’t spend a lot of time looking back.

The nurse practitioner lady: she was a nurse practitioner and came down to play music with us one day at band practice. I thought she was nice from the get-go. We began to talk afterward and flirt on social media. We started dating and it went nuts. I thought she was awesome. From a different world than I was, but it seemed to have a lot of the right elements. Until it didn’t.

At about month three, a strange anger began to emerge out of that woman. It’s like a flip switch would activate, and she would get nasty and gnarly and starting to throw insults at the television set because she didn’t believe some of the political narratives. It seemed overwhelmingly dramatic to me.

I tried to make that relationship work over two years, knowing the goodness and the love that she had in her heart, which I could see fairly regularly. But then absolute evil would come out of that woman. It eventually led to our downfall, and it was her that ended it, which is fairly typical of people that likely have undiagnosed borderline personality disorder. They fear abandonment, so they self destruct relationships before the other person realizes how flawed they really are.  If you heard the things that came out of that woman’s mouth, and the hatred that would be spewed when she was having an episode, it was verbally abusive. I know she couldn’t help herself. I tried to understand that, but even knowing that her condition had nothing to do with me, and that what she was saying really had nothing to do with me, it has left a scar and a hole so deep that I think to this day, it’s hard to heal from. It was traumatic. As one lady psychologist online says, just because someone isn’t physically abusive, mental abuse and verbal abuse can leave the same kind of trauma. Oh, yes it can. I can’t will that to go away. It’s still triggers me constantly.

I never wished that lady any ill will. I always spoke positively to her and tried to understand what she was experiencing.  Of course, with the exception of one single night, when I challenged her, and stood up to the evil. Almost a year later, when she broke up with me, she said she could never trust me again from that night. What I said to her was really pretty simple… “If what you’re saying about me (insults) is all true, then maybe we are done and you should just leave”.  She could never get past me saying that, even though she pushed me literally to the brink that night.  That’s the only single time I ever said anything negative to her or stood up to her wrath. Ever. And typically, it was “I’m so sorry you feel that way, I don’t feel that what you’re saying is what I feel in my heart, and I will do whatever I can to do better“. That was pretty much my stock answer to her abuse. 

I couldn’t bear suggest to her that she might be suffering from a mental illness, because that would’ve brought out the worst of the demons, I’m sure. So I kept my mouth shut and tried every strategy I could to please her and make her feel safe. A lot of good that did. 
 

in so many ways, I could not have imagined anyone that was a better fit for me, at least, when she was stable. We played music together, we recorded videos together, we went to see music together. It was the best possible fit in that regard. Until it wasn’t.When she broke up with me, I couldn’t imagine my heart would ever be together again. It took almost a year to not feel so much pain from the loss of that lady. I haven’t spoken to her since.

I have almost always said here that I have characteristics of borderline, so I wouldn’t deny that I have a tendency to maybe engage in some traits of borderlines. But I haven’t seen it as much in the last couple of years, except for the symptoms of anxious attachment disorder

Then there was the lady before the doctor lady: she was a sweetheart. I knew from the get-go that I wasn’t hugely attracted to her, and that we didn’t have a lot in common. I also knew she was much more religious than I was. I tried the best I could with her. I tried to reach outside of myself because I thought maybe I was putting walls around myself and shutting perfectly fine ladies out. So I tried.

sometimes we would disagree on political things, because we were on opposite spectrums, and that was aggravating to me. As it should be. There were different values coming out there. I was very patient and tried to do the best I could. I wasn’t hugely avoidant, as I also wasn’t with the last several lady friends. At times anxious, I’d say, but I wasn’t running from anyone. 

Eventually, this lady began to notice clearly that there were things that just weren’t going to come together. I didn’t like to eat the same kind of food she did, and that made her feel devalued. I would hesitate when she would invite me over to dinner, because during that time., I was eating a very specialized diet. She wasn’t getting it.

I didn’t like sleeping in her very small hard bed with all the windows closed. She loved sleeping at my house, so I tried to often encourage her to come over. Didn’t know it was an issue until almost the last night I ever spoke with her.
 

 I took her on day trips, out tonight‘s restaurants, I think I treated her fairly kindly. She seemed to really enjoy herself, and she really liked me… But it wasn’t enough for her. She wanted somebody to meld with her life, perhaps a little bit like some of what’s going on with the doctor lady. It just didn’t work for her.  I think she might’ve been secretly, hoping that I was going to try to ask her to come back, I don’t know. But I didn’t. I left and didn’t look back. I knew it was the right thing to do, for her as much as for myself. She’s deserved more than I could offer. 

The doctor lady is different. I haven’t done a lot of running from her, as well. I’m hugely more anxious. Right from the get-go, I saw things in her that I found hugely engaging. She was massively friendly, smiled a lot, we talked about a lot of things that I found really interesting, including science, and self improvement and mental health… She seemed really eager to know what I was all about.

Over time, we seemed to be finding that we had so many life stories in common… From the way we grew up, to have shy we both are an introverted… it was almost uncanny, how much I like we were in so many different ways… She would sometimes say that the universe must’ve brought us together.

But as time went on, as you’ve been seeing lately, we have also been noticing a lot of differences… She is basically heralded as the top of her field. I have been almost always seen as a heretic, and in my opinion, unjustly so. I’ve never waved the flag around, claiming that I believe this, or that. In almost every situation that I go into, I present myself as happy and friendly and decent. 
 

you may see the heretic side of me because that’s what I write a lot about on here. That’s not really what I present to my outside world. My presentation is really one of a simple, smiling, disheveled, aging rockin roller, that likely seems like someone that wouldn’t hurt a flea.  I sometimes think it is that persona that gives other people the feeling they have license to be mean.

I don’t need to go more into the why I get treated like this, I’ve discussed that on this site, 1 million times. I believe what I believe, despite what others have to say.

I haven’t run from the doctor lady at all. If anything, I’ve given more to this relationship that I have to every other, because, in many ways, I believed that her and I had so much more connection, and so much more internal stories in common.  

What seems to be breaking This down? Is the external, once again. My hair. My income. My religion. I guess those are value based as well? I couldn’t tell you. It’s not me running from her, and it’s not me being avoidant.

Some have said that putting her on the spot a few times and telling her that she was going to need to decide whether I could fit into her life was manipulative. Maybe to a smaller part, but when you are dating someone, there comes to a point where you have to pretty much have to lay it out on the table and say what’s on your mind. I did that. It seemed like if anything, she was the one that was building up these things that may have been potentially dealbreaker for her. Religion. House. Hair. Income. Not necessarily in that order. 
 

Did I deal with these issues the best I could? Most of the time I did. Until the end of those conversations at which point, I kind of put my cards on the table. This is who I am, and I’ll do what I can to make you happy, but if these things are deal breakers for you, perhaps it’s better that you decide that sooner than later. Those aren’t the words I used, but that’s the gist. I don’t think that was inappropriate. 

Is that why we are taking what seems like a step back? Probably. I think she needs to make some decisions. Either she can live with these things and hear what I have said to try to ease her mind on them, or she should leave me be to go find somebody else, which, as I said, would be likely catastrophic for me, given my inability to attract ladies anything like this lady. 

So, I’m becoming fairly well-versed in attachment theory, and each of them pretty much say that the current literature believes that often times people lead with one or the other, but they have elements of multiple. In this particular situation, I’m way more anxious than I am avoidant. Sometimes the avoidant characteristics come out, but I think she’s way more avoidant than I am. She’s not really anxious, and she’s got good reason not to have to be. She could put her profile back on the dating site and have 100 guys after her within about a 48 hour period.  No reason to be anxious about finding anyone else. 

Is Forrest Gump said, I believe… “That’s all I want to say about that” 

[Whirling D]

12 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

D,

Out of the entire thread, I've got to comment on going out till late on a school night. In any other job - in a new relationship where you're mad about the man you're with - absolutely, been there, done that, have lived through a hundred epic hangovers. But for a doctor - who's 61!- I totally get her and agree with her.  It's not about fun nights mid week..it's about life and death for her, literally, every day. You talk about her being moody or bad tempered sometimes - cut her some slack..don't expect her to always be cheery and relaxed and happy to hear from you. Don't expect her to want mid-week late nights. Wrong job and wrong age.

I hope it works out for you although if I was very honest I doubt it, sorry.

Hi, O. What is it that makes you think that it won’t work out? Just curious.

And yes, I have not said anything to her about being irritated that she wouldn’t come out tonight. And yes, I am trying to cut her some slack. I cut her some slack about being anxious and as she describes “Crazy“ on multiple occasions.

However, there is an awesome online psychologist that said something like this… When you are constantly delivering negative energy into a relationship, it becomes toxic. Just because you’re not physically hurting someone, if you are constantly in a bad mood, or acting negatively, it can have the same affect and be destructive.

I’ve been pretty good with her at not spewing negative energy. I hardly ever do. For the most part, she brings something out of me that allows me to feel positive, and happy, and have hope. That’s mostly what she sees. That could also be what is troubling to her, because she sat with me one day the weekend before last, and watched that video, and I could tell that it struck her profoundly that negative energy like that can be toxic and destructive. She even mentioned it.

I told her that I get it, because I lived a good chunk of my professional life, feeling that kind of negative energy, and I still do. I’ve been pretty good at keeping it out of this relationship, though, until stupid conversations come up like, hair and religion and my old house. Even then, I’ve tried to remain almost entirely positive and optimistic. It hasn’t been me spearing the negative energy in this relationship, believe me. 

I think if this relationship is to end, and it’s very possible if not likely, it’s because she can’t deal with those differences. In each one of those conversations, I told her I would do whatever I could to be flexible and to make her happy, despite what many of you may believe from what I have written on here. If anything, I may have been a little too convincing, perhaps to not be believable, who knows.

Eventually, she absolutely is going to have to decide whether she can deal with the income difference, the fact that I have a 15 year old that is challenging, the fact that I look like a Neanderthal… And you know what, if that happens, I’ll walk away, feeling a sense of pride that I stood up for what I believed in and who I am.

I felt it took me a lot of nerve to stand up to her when she was talking about my hair that night. I had to go with what I believe. I didn’t say I wouldn’t do things to make myself more presentable in her professional environment, but I didn’t have to say I liked it. It represents all the things that I think are fairly destructive within our culture… We’ve talked about that on here, but if you don’t believe that. I certainly do. It’s not the world I want to live in. 

[rainbowsandroses]

25 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I haven’t run from the doctor lady at all.

I know, that was my point.  You choose to stay despite all the incompatibilities, issues and struggles you experience.  

Which you do, at least own that.   It seems you're comfortable in the uncomfortable.

Can you describe the relationships you've had that were easy and smooth sailing?

Free from any major issues, you were both very into each other, compatible, no struggle, just love, and how you felt being in those relationships?

Did you feel comfortable, happy?  Why did they end?

 

 

[Type O Negative]

D,

I'll put more thoughts on here later maybe but as far as the entire hair thing is concerned - OMG. You're talking to someone who hasn't dated a short-haired bloke since 1994. I am and always have been mad about long hair on men and find short hair almost repulsive on both men and women. My husband's got super strong thick long (dyed black) hair down to his elbows. So, trust me, on your side 10000 percent re hair. How dare she! 🙂

[Whirling D]

10 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I know, that was my point.  You choose to stay despite all the incompatibilities, issues and struggles you experience.  

Which you do, at least own that. 

Can you describe the relationships you've had that were easy and smooth sailing?

Free from any major issues, you were both very into each other, compatible, no struggle, just love, and how you felt being in those relationships?

Did you feel comfortable, happy?  Why did they end?

 

 

I’ve never felt that. Ever. I have a vision of what that might be like, and who it might be. I could picture her. Kind of what she looked like. What she liked to talk about. Maybe she could be musical?  I’ve had a vision in my head for quite a long time. It’s not unrealistic, it’s just not likely going to happen. I guess that makes it unrealistic.

I see this kind of lady out and about. They just don’t date guys like me. You have to go back to the countless other threads to see why I believe that is true.

Dr. lady is by far the closest in almost all of these categories.

Here are the things that have been awesome:

- Almost every time we go somewhere, we walk hand-in-hand, and feel each other’s energy and goodness. It’s awesome.  We go walking on the beach. We rode our bikes to this fantastic conservation land, and walked forever, mostly hand in hand.

- although this may be too much information, we have a fantastic, intimate part of us. This may freak, some of you out, but I’ll say… Every time we go to each other’s house, wwe have a shower together. It’s awesome. I have experienced that here or there, but we both have been loving it all the time. It’s nurturing, it’s loving, and it’s a little bit erotic, but not a ton. It’s really about the bonding in the sharing for both of us, I think. 

We are pretty good partners at things… Her and I fixed a broken door in her Beachhouse this past weekend. It was me that mostly did the planning and execution, but I had to really finesse how to make the door work properly, and her and I worked on it together. It felt great.

I actually thought maybe she might have felt that I was a little bit cranky, like she said her previous boyfriends were when they did stuff like that, but she said that in actuality, that I was pretty easy to work with in a situation like that. I would enjoy doing more of that kind of stuff with her.

I helped her make pretty much all the beds in the beach house, because they hadn’t been changed in a while, so her and I fitted all the sheets, folded all the blankets, and put all the old stuff in the washing machine. I would do that any time with her.

There were a few occasions, non-recently, when we were driving together, and we began singing and trying to sing harmonies together. That was awesome. We haven’t been in the car together like that for a while, so that hasn’t happened recently.

Two weekends ago, when she decided not to go to the beach house, we walked around the small touristy town near where she lives. It was raining pathetically, but we bounced in and out of a whole bunch of shops. I didn’t really need to shop for anything, because I don’t have any money, but it was fun to be there with her when she was looking at different things that she thought were interesting. We sat in two different cafés, and one we had breakfast at, and we were chitchatting the whole time and just being together. It was awesome. 

It was only this past weekend that cracks begin to appear. They follow the talk about religion, which I can’t remember what night that was… But that seemed to be the first real bump that we’ve encountered, at least when we’ve been together. It’s been almost all positive other than starting with that conversation.

Early when we were getting fairly serious, she came to see me play music with a children’s chorus outside at a small local Festival.  She said it was awesome to see me in my element, and it actually made her feel more connected to me and attracted to me… After that, there was a free canoe ride that her and I did, and we paddled about 20 minutes up a large river in the peace and quiet. It was awesome.
 

I have many stories like these, and she has always agreed that they were awesome. It felt like we were almost completely in sync, almost each and every one. Until the religion conversation.

Maybe it’s how I handled those conversations, but I don’t think so. If anything, I think she may be the avoidant one, and she may be looking for reasons to back away from that kind of intensity. But that’s only speculation.

My point of all of this is mostly… You guys only hear my stream of conscious negative things that I’m feeling and saying. I don’t tell you all the positive things, because it’s not relative to what I’m thinking at any given moment. I could go on and on about little moments that her and I have shared that I’ve been absolutely fantastic. Unlike anyone I’ve ever been with, and will likely ever be with. That’s why I react so strongly, and perhaps anxiously regarding this lady. 

 

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

D,

I'll put more thoughts on here later maybe but as far as the entire hair thing is concerned - OMG. You're talking to someone who hasn't dated a short-haired bloke since 1994. I am and always have been mad about long hair on men and find short hair almost repulsive on both men and women. My husband's got super strong thick long (dyed black) hair down to his elbows. So, trust me, on your side 10000 percent re hair. How dare she! 🙂

Thanks, O… I appreciate that. Long-haired men unite!  Bring on the long haired men loving ladies!
 

The intensity that I have felt with this lady certainly hasn’t come without my own issues, which is mostly what I write about on here…

The avoidant part of me is likely what comes up when I struggle with reasons that maybe her and I couldn’t work. But the good news, I don’t take a lot of steps toward actualizing those reasons. Other than standing up for myself and my long hair. That’s really been the only time that I’ve shown any negative feedback to anything she has said or done. 

But then, again, I have told her a lot of my negative stories over the last couple of weeks. How I’ve lost many jobs because of stupid things, and how I lost my career. I felt really vulnerable eventually telling her those things, but I thought the time was right. She said she didn’t think those stories made any difference in how she felt, but how could they not?

I think she had this vision of me being this outgoing, artistic person that had a lot going for me, and then, as little anecdotes came out that show the different picture, I could see how that might make her feel otherwise.

Would she really want to have to be telling her friends that she’s been with someone that basically tanked their career because of stupid stuff? Or has lost at least four jobs because of things that seemed less to do about who I was, and what I brought to the table, and more what I looked like? I could go on and on. 

There’s a sneaking part of me that thinks that all of these things are adding up to confusion for her. She hears my kind words when I talk to her, and I think that is what makes her feel secure and happy, but then she hears my stories, and hears what I say about things like religion/hair/poverty, and I think that really throws her for a loop, and one that she can’t quite navigate, because it is so different than the life she lives.  
 

I don’t really know how to manage that, and I don’t think she does.

If anything, I think it’s going to be this kind of thing that will be the downfall.

Part of me, even wondering if I should have told her all of those stories about losing jobs… But it’s a part of my history, and I didn’t think it would be the right thing to withhold those stories. I also know that if she can’t handle those stories, and she makes them into being bigger things that they should be in the present, then it really kind of tells me I’m probably not with the right person.  Know what I mean?

[Whirling D]

33 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I know, that was my point.  You choose to stay despite all the incompatibilities, issues and struggles you experience.  

Which you do, at least own that. 

Can you describe the relationships you've had that were easy and smooth sailing?

Free from any major issues, you were both very into each other, compatible, no struggle, just love, and how you felt being in those relationships?

Did you feel comfortable, happy?  Why did they end?

 

 

I do try to stay, rainbow. For all the reasons you are describing… Avoidants run, and I do a lot of that in my heart, but I’m trying hard not to do that. I stuck with my ex-wife, I stuck with the borderline lady, I stuck with the Christian lady, and I’m sticking with the doctor lady. She’s the closest so far. By far. 
 

I almost have nothing left to give. My tank is almost empty. This feels eerily like my last hope.

[rainbowsandroses]

19 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I've never felt that. Ever. I have a vision of what that might be like, and who it might be. I could picture her. 

Precisely my point.  And there is a reason for that whether you are consciously aware of it or not. 

You choose difficult relationships and difficult women, challenging women who cause your emotions to stir and not always in a good way.

I mean come on man, you're 61 years old, isn't it obvious?

Think about why, that's all I ask, why you have never had a truly emotionally intimate relationship where things were smooth and easy.

And don't rule my previous post out.

It's a shame you don't enjoy reading cause there are many great books discussing this that you could learn from.

About yourself, others, love, relationships, LIFE.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

9 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Avoidants run...

Avoidants run from peaceful, easy, smooth sailing and intimate. 

They're uncomfortable with that type of closeness and intimacy.   So they run from it. They "avoid" it. 

Your relationship with Dr Lady and ALL your relationships from what you described are and never been anything even remotely resembling that!

So YES you stay, you're comfortable in the uncomfortable.

THAT is avoidant behavior whether you wish to acknowledge this about yourself not. 

Read the book I referenced!

[NighttimeNightmare]

8 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Avoidants run, and I do a lot of that in my heart, but I’m trying hard not to do that.

No they don’t, not necessarily. Avoidants stay in relationships that don’t work so they can *** about it not working, or be confused about it not working, instead of leaving to find actual emotional intimacy with someone it does work with. Because they feel enmeshed when there is actual intimacy with someone compatible, they stay in incompatible situations.  
 

even earlier you said you weren’t avoidant and her theory was wrong (and maybe it is..), but then in your examples of why you weren’t avoidant you actually detail avoidant behavior: “I didn’t like anything about the middle eastern woman but I stayed for 2 years”

 

that’s what avoidants do lol 

[rainbowsandroses]

@MrMan1983I do believe it's that deep and he'd be wise to explore it with his therapist.

In fact, I am shocked his therapist has not brought it up given his history of extremely difficult, challenging and in some cases dysfunctional relationships.

I mean this is pretty standard stuff that I learned from reading a few books, his therapist has been schooled and trained! 

And she/he never even mentioned this to him?  As a possibility for why he struggles?

He's 61, it's a pattern.  He has NEVER had a peaceful and truly intimate relationship with a women.  Ever.  And there IS a reason for that. 

And it's not because he's never found the "right" women, it's not about the women at all. 

Its about him and something within himself that causes him to subconsciously seek such women and relationships out.  And remain despite all the obstacles.

Yes it really is that deep. 

[Whirling D]

28 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Precisely my point.  And there is a reason for that whether you are consciously aware of it or not. 

You choose difficult relationships and difficult women, challenging women who cause your emotions to stir and not always in a good way.

I mean come on man, you're 61 years old, isn't it obvious?

Think about why, that's all I ask, why you have never had a truly emotionally intimate relationship where things were smooth and easy.

And don't rule my previous post out.

It's a shame you don't enjoy reading cause there are many great books discussing this that you could learn from.

About yourself, others, love, relationships, LIFE.

 

I read veraciously, rainbow. But I read online, not books. I can’t really afford books.

I did buy an online book from a doctor in Canada that I liked. Her and I have chatted a few times online, and I like what she has to say. It’s a book about bringing happiness to your life and decreasing stress.I enjoyed it thoroughly, but I stopped reading it, because it’s not something I haven’t read many times, and thought about many times throughout my adult life.

The only variable that I have the capacity to change is my hair length, oh, and perhaps how outgoing I am. Those are two very difficult things to change. They are not impossible, but I have never found either one of them to hold any kind of real value.  I go out myself fairly often and sit in cafés, and have breakfast, and tonight I am pushing myself to go out to the fireworks, even though it will break my heart that I’m there without the doctor, lady, and by myself. It’ll be kind of embarrassing.
 

Do you think I am meeting any eligible women at these places? I’m not. I chat with baristas, and if there’s anyone in line, that looks nice, I’ll chat with them… But in all my years, I’ve pretty much never met anybody that I could date while I am out and about. Pretty much ever.

As for how I look…

As I’ve said, 1 million times… I’ve had short hair for a good chunk of my life. Made little difference. Still couldn’t attract women if my life depended on it.

I’ve been on every possible dating site over the last 20 years. The doctor lady is literally the only viable choice that has liked my profile since I was dating the nurse practitioner. Could I go way outside my box and try to date people that are far from what would be optimal? I guess I could. But why would I?

I don’t deliberately go out to pick women that are complicated. Quite the opposite. Each of these women seem like they would be very decent choices upon first considering dating them. Each one of them had wonderful qualities and characteristics that I had to consider strongly.

It wasn’t until the dust settled that things started to go awry, and with the exception of my overly anxious wife, I did very little to sabotage the situations, other than not breaking up with them a lot sooner. And that was my way of trying to be flexible and meeting people for where they are at.

My bad, I guess.

[LootieTootie]

 

6 hours ago, Whirling D said:

 

oh, upon preparing to hang up last night… There was a little bit of awkwardness… I think we were both trying to figure out what we should say to each other to sign off… A lot of times we do silly kissing sounds, and sometimes if it is a video call, I will actually put my lips up to the camera and do this silly kissing thing, and she will sometimes do it back… So, I made the kissing sound, and then, in her very squeaky hesitant child like voice, she said “love you…” And I said “love you too”. Then we hung up. 

Well yea its because she's slowing her roll. And you should too especially all that teenage lovey dovey cringey stuff.

Since you already said you will talk to her tomorrow, I think after that you should not initiate and see if she contacts you. When you are the one who keeps initiating contact or ask "when should I call you?"  you do yourself a disservice because you aren't really letting her action speak. If she likes you enough, then she will reach out. Then if she reaches out, listen to her and see if she is going to ask you to join her at her beach house during her vacay week.

You need to see: 1) does she miss me, 2) does she want to hang out with me, and 3) does she still like me after all the hair, religion, socioeconomic talks.

I never thought you two were a good match (mostly because I think you are needy) but you both are still talking/dating and I hope eventually you both can iron out some of the disagreements in order to find a common understanding or expectation. 

 

[Whirling D]

27 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Avoidants run from peaceful, easy, smooth sailing and intimate. 

They're uncomfortable with that type of closeness and intimacy.   So they run from it. They "avoid" it. 

Your relationship with Dr Lady and ALL your relationships from what you described are and never been anything even remotely resembling that!

So YES you stay, you're comfortable in the uncomfortable.

THAT is avoidant behavior whether you wish to acknowledge this about yourself not. 

Read the book I referenced!

But there are things about this description that are in accurate. I feel, or at least felt, almost perfectly in tune with the doctor lady when we are together. It’s when we aren’t together, that I start to swirl and think negatively.
 

It’s also only been recently that strong negatives have started to appear… And they have been mostly on her end. So, if anything, I think that it is her that is running, and I think it’s pretty clear. Or, maybe she’s just not convinced that I offer her the life she wants to live. If that’s the case, no amount of me being securely, attached is going to change that 

[Whirling D]

27 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

No they don’t, not necessarily. Avoidants stay in relationships that don’t work so they can *** about it not working, or be confused about it not working, instead of leaving to find actual emotional intimacy with someone it does work with. Because they feel enmeshed when there is actual intimacy with someone compatible, they stay in incompatible situations.  
 

even earlier you said you weren’t avoidant and her theory was wrong (and maybe it is..), but then in your examples of why you weren’t avoidant you actually detail avoidant behavior: “I didn’t like anything about the middle eastern woman but I stayed for 2 years”

 

that’s what avoidants do lol 

But it’s also what people do, who are trying to look beyond the obvious, and try to value what is right in front of them, and do the exact opposite of running… Staying because the person is a good person and may be worth it.
 

In most of those scenarios, I really cared for those ladies, and I really cared for a lot of what they brought to my life, and what I brought to their’s. It wasn’t me that broke up with them. I probably would have stayed, because there was goodness in each of those relationships. 
 

I don’t really know how else to describe that. I worked hard at each of those relationships to not run because of superficial things. My head got the best of me a few of those times, but it’s getting easier and easier for me to see the goodness in the ladies I’ve dated recently, particularly the doctor lady. It’s almost a no-brainer with her. She has so many good things to offer.

 My biggest fear comes from my anxiety that she is going to run, or just decide that what I offer isn’t what she wants.  I see things that lead me to believe that it is avoidant running, that she may be tempted to do. She has said to me many many times that I am the only guy that she has ever known that she feels actually listens to her… Thinks about what she says… Cares about what she thinks and feels.  This is the one of the reasons that I think she may not run, or if she runs, it may not be far.

But then that puts the onus on me to decide if I want to be in a situation where someone is running. I recognize it because I have done it. Not in a long while, but I remember a particular girl that I ran from. Several when I was younger. Not so much these days. I may concoct things in my head, and at times it has complicated things, but I don’t act on them nearly as much as I used to. That’s a good thing. 

if the doctor lady runs and doesn’t come back. That would be devastating. Don’t know how I would get over that one. Maybe it’s good it’s only been 10 weeks.  

[rainbowsandroses]

Its okay Whirling this stuff is hard to grasp and you've been living and functioning within this pattern for all of your adult life.

So at 61, it's doubtful you will recognize yourself in the scenarios I've described and become more self-aware of what motivates you to stay in such difficult and challenging situations and that's okay. 

Just be happy and try and find some peace.

That's all mate. Take care. 

[Whirling D]

9 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

 

Well yea its because she's slowing her roll. And you should too especially all that teenage lovey dovey cringey stuff.

Since you already said you will talk to her tomorrow, I think after that you should not initiate and see if she contacts you. When you are the one who keeps initiating contact or ask "when should I call you?"  you do yourself a disservice because you aren't really letting her action speak. If she likes you enough, then she will reach out. Then if she reaches out, listen to her and see if she is going to ask you to join her at her beach house during her vacay week.

You need to see: 1) does she miss me, 2) does she want to hang out with me, and 3) does she still like me after all the hair, religion, socioeconomic talks.

I never thought you two were a good match (mostly because I think you are needy) but you both are still talking/dating and I hope eventually you both can iron out some of the disagreements in order to find a common understanding or expectation. 

 

Well, interestingly, she has her own kind of neediness… It’s a different kind than me. Mine is an anxious neediness… And that can be destructive in its own way, as you know.
 

As far as me, asking her when to call, she had just said… “I’ll talk to you tomorrow”, so I thought I was being respectful by asking her when I should call. That’s all it really was. I was trying to respect her time and space. 
 

I’ve stepped away back in the amount I’ve been texting her. Exponentially so. For all I know, her chilling out could be her acknowledging that, who knows. I don’t think so, but I don’t really know why. It may not have anything to do with any of our conversations, or anything about me. She might just be settling in and enjoying what is, rather than what isn’t.  I’m not there yet.   She sounded pretty much mostly fine last night on the phone. Seemed happy to hear from me and to be talking.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

@Whirling Dthe book I referred is entitled "He's Scared, She's Scared, Understanding the Hidden Fears that Sabotage Your Relationships."

The operative word being "Hidden."

Often times, people who struggle with anxiety and such are totally unaware as to why, they're in denial about a lot of things about themselves too, sadly.

I was there myself which prompted me to purchase and read the book and it helped me tremendously.

People read the book and others like it and it's like their "aha" moment and it all starts to makes sense.

The book can be read on line.

That said, perhaps you like things the way they are, your anxiety is familiar and feels safe to you, and you don't wish to gain understanding or change. 

Which is okay too!

As long as you are happy, however you wish to define happy for yourself, that is all that matters.

 

 

[LootieTootie]

5 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Well, interestingly, she has her own kind of neediness… It’s a different kind than me. Mine is an anxious neediness… And that can be destructive in its own way, as you know.
 

As far as me, asking her when to call, she had just said… “I’ll talk to you tomorrow”, so I thought I was being respectful by asking her when I should call. That’s all it really was. I was trying to respect her time and space. 
 

I’ve stepped away back in the amount I’ve been texting her. Exponentially so. For all I know, her chilling out could be her acknowledging that, who knows. I don’t think so, but I don’t really know why. It may not have anything to do with any of our conversations, or anything about me. She might just be settling in and enjoying what is, rather than what isn’t.  I’m not there yet.   She sounded pretty much mostly fine last night on the phone. Seemed happy to hear from me and to be talking.

 

Okay well now don't initiate after that call and see how it plays out. You need to see if her cooling her roll is due to not really digging you any more. Or are you afraid of finding out? 

And we are just like you. We don't know what is going on in Drlady's head so we are just here theorizing with you. So, I advise you to follow her lead, and just for this week, see if she makes an open gesture for reconnection and invitation to her beach house next week. Her action or lack of, will give you some insight to where her interest in investing in this relationship is.

Good luck! 

 

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@Whirling Dthe book I referred is entitled "He's Scared, She's Scared, Understanding the Hidden Fears that Sabotage Your Relationships."

The operative word being "Hidden."

Often times, people who struggle with anxiety and such are totally unaware as to why, they're in denial about a lot of things about themselves too, sadly.

I was there myself which prompted me to purchase and read the book and it helped me tremendously.

People read the book and others like it and it's like their "aha" moment and it all starts to makes sense.

The book can be read on line.

 

Thank you, OK. Let me think about it.

But in the meantime, I don’t think there’s a lot that I’m not understanding about myself. I could make a list as to why I am anxious and fearful. Ive had multiple therapists in my court telling me I see myself pretty clearly.

[Type O Negative]

36 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@MrMan1983I do believe it's that deep and he'd be wise to explore it with his therapist.

In fact, I am shocked his therapist has not brought it up given his history of extremely difficult, challenging and in some cases dysfunctional relationships.

I mean this is pretty standard stuff that I learned from reading a few books, his therapist has been schooled and trained! 

And she/he never even mentioned this to him?  As a possibility for why he struggles?

He's 61, it's a pattern.  He has NEVER had a peaceful and truly intimate relationship with a women.  Ever.  And there IS a reason for that. 

And it's not because he's never found the "right" women, it's not about the women at all. 

Its about him and something within himself that causes him to subconsciously seek such women and relationships out.  And remain despite all the obstacles.

Yes it really is that deep. 

No it's not. The heart wants want the heart wants. Simple as that. Yep, it's as simple as that. Forget books and therapists. Forget trying to make a 61 y old long -haired hippy rocker into something he's never been and will never be, not even for what his heart wants. Not trying to start a debate re D as a person or what he has or hasn't done right in his life. And no, don't think they'll work out long term. (sorry D)

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Okay well now don't initiate after that call and see how it plays out. You need to see if her cooling her roll is due to not really digging you any more. Or are you afraid of finding out? 

And we are just like you. We don't know what is going on in Drlady's head so we are just here theorizing with you. So, I advise you to follow her lead, and just for this week, see if she makes an open gesture for reconnection and invitation to her beach house next week. Her action or lack of, will give you some insight to where her interest in investing in this relationship is.

Good luck! 

 

Thank you Lootie, that’s exactly what I am expecting to do.

I was kind of hoping she’d bring up next weekend last night… “Have you put any thought into coming up to the beach house this coming weekend, D?”  Nothing like that yet, but it’s only Monday. She was on the run a good chunk of yesterday, but she did have a chunk of time on Sunday to be thinking ahead.
 

Also, something that I thought… She’s been talking about her vacation week up at the beach house, and all along she has been saying, she hopes I can get up there to join her.

On the other hand, she hasn’t ever once, said… “Maybe I can come down to your house for a day or two during my vacation.”  
 

she basically has 14 days off, and could probably take a couple of days to come down and visit me. There are times that I think she is a little selfish in that regard. Just a little. I mean, I do think we are all selfish in our own ways. I’m trying to get used to her being set in her ways… Which I am, as well, and so many ways. 

[rainbowsandroses]

5 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

Forget trying to make a 61 y old long -haired hippy rocker into something he's never been and will never be, not even for what his heart wants. 

Yeah, I believe I said that too if not in the post you quoted, another post.

So we agree on that and I also agree chances are slim to none they will work out long term, sorry Whirling.

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Whirling D said:

, she hasn’t ever once, said… “Maybe I can come down to your house for a day or two during my vacation.”  

Have you invited her? She seems too polite to invite herself. Unless you mention it and when you're actually free from gigs and custody, why would she say this?

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, LootieTootie said:

Okay well now don't initiate after that call and see how it plays out. You need to see if her cooling her roll is due to not really digging you any more. Or are you afraid of finding out? 

And we are just like you. We don't know what is going on in Drlady's head so we are just here theorizing with you. So, I advise you to follow her lead, and just for this week, see if she makes an open gesture for reconnection and invitation to her beach house next week. Her action or lack of, will give you some insight to where her interest in investing in this relationship is.

Good luck! 

 

I am just seeing this posting now…

I don’t think you were around about a year ago when I was going on and on, it might’ve even been less than a year ago, on and on about why I feel I don’t fit in here and don’t attract women. I think there are many reasons. The fellow in the post a few weeks ago was saying almost exactly the same things:

- Unattractive to most women

- on the short side, long hair, very effeminate characteristics, I could go on and on.

- Culturally different. I grew up in rural parts of Canada. I don’t really relate well to people where I am in the north east US. People here are highly dependent on careers, and income, and education and possessions. You kind of are what you succeed at. Almost doesn’t matter how nice you are or how friendly you are. If you have nothing to offer, people generally ignore you. There’s just too many people around here in urban America to spend time on the marginalized. That’s cultural. 

- I don’t have any money. Although, that hasn’t mattered to the last four or five girls I’ve dated.

- I no longer have a stable career, which is a byproduct of the last one. That hasn’t been a big deal with the last bunch of partners, either. Let’s see how that goes with the doctor lady. She rarely mentions it, but I can’t imagine she’s not factoring that into whatever she decides.

- I have been incredibly shy and introverted for most of my adult life. That’s a big one. I’ve almost never gone out to bars, and I don’t find it easy to go places that involve direct socializing. That has changed a lot. I don’t know if you recall, I met a lady that was roughly my age, while I was playing out back in October, and I had the nerve to go over and talk with her in an upbeat, although kind of awkward way. I asked her for her number. She happily gave it to me. I called her a few days later. No answer. Texted her several times over the next few months. Never heard back from her.
 

Do you wonder why I’m like this?