Would I know if I was giving off a creepy vibe?

[Carnatic]

Thanks everyone... wow this has certainly sparked a discussion!

 

Lots of general dating tips, and I appreciate them and will bear these things in mind if i can in future... though I was more keen to talk about this fear I have (still have) of coming accross as creepy. It might not come as a surprise to people to know that I have some anxiety disorder and often can't help thinking about things I know I shouldn't. I went for a long time without dating at all, and the creepy fear went back into the recesses of my mind, but now it's back because I recently went on a date.

 

All the women I've ever dated or been in a long term relationship in my life have been the result of them asking me out... I've never asked a woman out myself (or at least the few times I have asked women out haven't led to a date). For a lot of the past few years I've not really been looking for a relationship but the girl I was speaking to online wanted to meet me, so I let myself forget my anxieties and anything anyone might advice about not meeting people you've been chatting to online, and said yes.

 

So besides general anxiety about most things, the thing that keeps me from asking women out, isn't just fear of rejection specifically... but it's fear of a certain type of rejection. If I just feared she'd say 'thanks but no thanks' I'd probably be OK, but my fears run a bit deeper than that. Because I have this fear that I'm a really creepy guy, I picture scenarios where instead of just getting rejected, I get maced... or security come to protect the woman from my creepy advance... or the police get called for harassment. I get a criminal record, I'm put on the sex-offender's register, I get publicly shamed, the local media run a news story about this creep going round harassing women, everyone knows that I'm this creepy weirdo and I get heckled wherever I go and have to move town.

 

In truth I perhaps overcompensate. I'm fairly confident socially, and I'm not particularly shy with women when I first meet them, even if I do like them... but I won't ask them out because of that fear, that I'm just about managing to be normal, but if I try and ask her out then I'll tip over the edge into creepy. I don't use chat-up-lines, but even then, just imagining myself going up to a girl and saying 'hi' in my head, I sound really slithery. I keep eye contact brief, I try and make sure I don't even accidentally glance over her breasts, I try not to impose myself too much, and try and think before talking. I possibly overcompensate. I don't think I'm ugly, like hideous... I'm not some guy moaning that I look like a monster... but when I look in the mirror I do see the more creepy looking aspects of my appearance... the bags under my eyes, the wrinkles on my forehead, the pores on my nose, my receding hairline, that natural frown I can't seem to get rid of and everything else that in my eyes makes me look like this creepy old man.

 

I've been thinking about why I have this fear, and the earlier example I mentioned where she accused me of stalking her came to mind. These things make me doubt myself... which scares me. As I mentioned, she claimed I'd been stood outside her workplace all day at some point after our second date, whereas I'd not even been in the city since the second date. Rather than just think to myself 'well this is probably more about her than me, obviously she's mistaken, just let it slide'... I start to think 'maybe she's right... what if I did travel down to the city, find out where she worked and then stalk her? Then erased it all from my memory. I think I've been getting the balance right between interest and patience but maybe what I think isn't to be trusted... if she says I stalked her and I say I didn't who's to say she's not the one in the right?'

 

It's difficult I don't trust my own view of myself. Like someone mentioned before about a creep being the guy who slips his hand up his date's skirt when she removes a stone from her shoe. My initial response was 'well I've never done that' but then a second thought was 'or have I?... how would I know?... perhaps I have done, and then blanked it out.' It probably sounds ridiculous to most of you that someone could doubt themselves to that level, and I'm not saying I 100% believe it, but the uncertainty is enough to cause me anxiety.

 

There was actually another incident I didn't mention before, between the most recent one and the one who accused me of stalking her. I did ask a girl out once, in a nightclub... I was then approached by a group of about four men, dragged into a back-room and had the living **** kicked out of me. Again I should have been thinking there was obviously something going on with that girl and those guys, perhaps it was gang related and nothing to do with me... instead in my head I worried that my approach had been really creepy and slithery and they were her knights in shining armour, stepping in to rescue her from a guy who probably wanted to steal her pants and sew them into his pants-duvet.

 

Although Sportster's probably 100% correct that the reason the online girl hasn't contacted me since our date is simply that the spark wasn't there in person and it was easier for her to just disappear than tell me so. In my head there's a chance she's currently living in a women's refuge, unable to sleep and peering nervously out of the window in case I'm stood there at night, under a flickering streetlight holding a meat cleaver. In a weird way, the fact she messaged me to tell me she was stressed out but it wasn't me and she would be back, wasn't, a) because she really was dealing with things and really would be back, or b) because she thought it might be a gentler way to lower my expectations of her returning, but c) in order to buy herself some time before I started stalking her.

 

I'm sorry, I know it sounds like all kinds of levels of crazy, and I don't buy 100% into these thoughts, but I can't make them disappear either... I guess having pre-existing anxiety problems, and then being beaten up, accused of stalking and now ghosted will leave an imprint.

[Rosti87]

I have a friend with anxiety disorder. I don't pretend to understand how it must feel for you. But I am aware based upon what my friend has shared with me that her anxiety can leap to great heights and can get out of hand. I strongly suggest seeking support groups that work on managing the anxiety so it does not take over your life. Mindfulness meditation I hear helps as well (but that takes a while to kick in).

[Carnatic]

I have a friend with anxiety disorder. I don't pretend to understand how it must feel for you. But I am aware based upon what my friend has shared with me that her anxiety can leap to great heights and can get out of hand. I strongly suggest seeking support groups that work on managing the anxiety so it does not take over your life. Mindfulness meditation I hear helps as well (but that takes a while to kick in).

 

Thanks for responding

 

It's kind of like having an argument with yourself 24/7... like all those unhelpful thoughts are there and you can't make them go away, so you argue back with them, and present counter-proposals to their assertions that - in this case - you are a creep. It wears me out and by the end of the day usually I'm too exhausted to argue and they get the upper hand, which in turn leads to depression. Having friends around me helps a lot because then it's not just me vs the thoughts, but it's me and all my friends vs the thoughts (even if they don't know they're part of the fight)... and places like this can help as well, but not as much as people who actually know me and are with me in person. I have tried meditation, but it's really difficult to get over that first hurdle, where when you switch your own positive thoughts off to try and meditate, you're giving the unhelpful thoughts free rein to try and destroy you. So far I've not succeeding in getting to a stage where I'm able to turn off the unhelpful thoughts as well.

[TMifune]

Do you have any chick friends that can tell you? Or a sister? Or cousin?

 

Take any information you get this way with a GIANT grain of salt. Women do not, in general give men good advice on how to get women to notice them or become interested.

 

You can look super hot, but if you're creepy, you are just creepy, which means, the moment you open your mouth, you will not look hot to anyone.

 

"Creepy" is 100x more about the person who feels someone's beeing "creepy" than it is about the other person. I mean, if he was sitting on the hood of her car sharpening a knife with his pants down, okay, but many of these women are basically saying "I'm not interested in you and I sense you're interested in me, so you're creepy". It's kinda crap.

[Carnatic]

"Creepy" is 100x more about the person who feels someone's beeing "creepy" than it is about the other person. I mean, if he was sitting on the hood of her car sharpening a knife with his pants down, okay, but many of these women are basically saying "I'm not interested in you and I sense you're interested in me, so you're creepy". It's kinda crap.

 

Well I should probably clarify, that I don't know that any of these girls actually did think I was being creepy... my problem isn't so much that girls ARE finding me creepy, but that I'm afraid myself that I am creepy, and not creepy in anyone's eyes in particular, just objectively creepy.

[TMifune]

"Creepy" is about boundaries. In general people that are considered "creepy" are the ones who've either pushed someone's boundaries, or give off a cue that makes that person think you're going to push one of their boundaries. The problem is that the people who throw the word around tend to be insecure themselves; they tend to be the people who aren't any good at establishing proper boundaries. So instead of being confident that if you did push a boundary they could just say "no" firmly if necessary, they instead put their defense mechanisms up.

 

If you were out of town and this girl thought you were hanging around outside her office all day, then I'd say she for some reason wanted to believe you were stalking her. Almost like she got some kind of sick validation from believing that someone was so obsessed they'd stalk her. I'd stay away from that one.

 

I have some more to say about "creepy" but I don't want it to play into your anxiety and while I don't think it should, the nature of anxiety is that it probably would.

[TMifune]

Well I should probably clarify, that I don't know that any of these girls actually did think I was being creepy... my problem isn't so much that girls ARE finding me creepy, but that I'm afraid myself that I am creepy, and not creepy in anyone's eyes in particular, just objectively creepy.

 

Right, so just throw the word away completely. It doesn't do you any good, and it's really more about how they feel anyway.

[TMifune]

Thing about women and "creepy" is that if they find you attractive and like you, all fo the above will be normal. If they don't, all of the sudden those things become "creepy".

 

Read: Creepy is "selective"

 

At it's heart "creepy" is shaming language. I mean some things are almost objectively creepy, but OP doesn't sound like he's doing any of those things. So basically it comes down to someone thinking that you're beneath them so they try to shame you with the word "creepy". There are actually woman who compete with each other to describe who's had the most or the worst attention from "creepy" guys, but at heart all their doing is competing over which one of them is the most superficial and rotten.

[TMifune]

As already pointed out, dating is a numbers game. What it means is that it is difficult for absolutely everyone to meet someone where the core animal sexual attraction is present. Key word being mutual. Without that, it really doesn't matter how perfect your date was, how much fun you and her had, how pretty she is, how many compliments she paid you, etc., etc., etc., it is not going to work out..

 

That's right, it's ALL about the neurotransmitter infusion that's sole purpose is to form attachment with any regard to whether someone is good to attach to or not. Just walk up to her and sniff her butt and let her sniff yours and you'll know right away whether you're compatible or not!

[Hermes]

I dunno Carnatic. Perhaps in reality you are over-thinking the issue.

 

""You know that panicky feeling you get when you wonder is your mind playing tricks on you, are you not seeing the truth that is obvious to everyone else. Did John Wayne Gacey know he was a psychopath, or does he think he's just a normal guy. I'm starting to doubt who I am. Would I know if I was making women think 'get as far away from this guy as possible, as fast as possible'... and what kind of things could I be doing that would make a woman think that?"

[TMifune]

Was just gonna say. I know an actual "CREEPER." This guy has zero social skills and zero confidence, doesn't dress well, kinda smells. He won't listen to our advice. He won't approach women so much as stand near them and just try to dance with them (if it's a bar/club scene). Needless to say, I don't see this guy much anymore.

 

The club bar scene isn't the right place for this guy to meet women, and shaming him as a creep for being socially awkward doesn't do anything but attempt to make yourself look good at his expense.

[Hermes]

Agree totally TM.

 

"The club bar scene isn't the right place for this guy to meet women,...."

 

But socially awkward and creepiness are two entirely different things.

 

Thought I'd put this up:

 

 

link removed

 

Excerpt:

"Occupations do differ in level of perceived creepiness. Clowns, taxidermists, sex-shop owners, and funeral directors were at the top of the list."

"The most frequently mentioned creepy hobbies involved collecting things, such as dolls, insects, or body parts such as teeth. Bones or fingernails were considered especially creepy; the second most frequently mentioned creepy hobby involved some variation of "watching," such as taking pictures of people, watching children, pornography, and even bird watching."

[happy_snapper]

I've had exactly the same thoughts about being creepy. What you said about having an irrational fear the the police would be called... I've literally thought exactly the same thing.

 

CBT helped a lot.

[Rosti87]

If you haven't already try specifically mindfulness. Try to stay away from the modern New Age interpretations of meditation and see if you can join a group of sitters.

[TMifune]

Agree totally TM.

 

"The club bar scene isn't the right place for this guy to meet women,...."

 

But socially awkward and creepiness are two entirely different things.

 

Thought I'd put this up:

 

 

link removed

 

Excerpt:

"Occupations do differ in level of perceived creepiness. Clowns, taxidermists, sex-shop owners, and funeral directors were at the top of the list."

"The most frequently mentioned creepy hobbies involved collecting things, such as dolls, insects, or body parts such as teeth. Bones or fingernails were considered especially creepy; the second most frequently mentioned creepy hobby involved some variation of "watching," such as taking pictures of people, watching children, pornography, and even bird watching."

 

The key is "perceived". It has nothing to do with it being intrinsically "creepy" and everything to do with what we as an outsider assume that this thing we'd never consider doing means about the internal mental state of the person doing it.

[TMifune]

If you haven't already try specifically mindfulness. Try to stay away from the modern New Age interpretations of meditation and see if you can join a group of sitters.

 

I have a hilarious and slightly "creepy" image of dozens of babies doing zen mediation now as being what the "Babysitter's Club" books were all about ;-)

[Carnatic]

Right, so just throw the word away completely. It doesn't do you any good, and it's really more about how they feel anyway.

 

I've tried, on many occasions.

[superfan]

OP, for what it's worth, here are my two cents:

 

I am not a psychiatrist, but I do have a few friends who suffer from anxiety disorders and the patterns of thought you are describing are pretty much the same as the people I know who have been diagnosed. There are MANY different kinds of anxiety disorders ranging from generalized anxiety to more specific social anxiety. You should definitely think of speaking to a therapist to see what kind of options are out there for you. I know that cognitive behavior therapy is just one kind of treatment that friends of mine have sworn by.

 

Either way, it might help even just to be able to identify what the problem is so that you can develop coping mechanisms to deal with these anxious thoughts when they pop up.

 

As for how women perceive you, having not been there on a date with you I can't even begin to guess whether they in fact found you "creepy", or if they just wanted to avoid the awkwardness of rejecting someone they didn't feel a spark with.

 

I don't think simply "faking" confidence is the answer, in fact most women can spot a guy who is faking it a mile away and it's not attractive. Not every girl wants a guy who will storm in and "take control". Some women (myself included) find shyness rather endearing.

 

I would MUCH rather be out with a man who was being authentic (if a bit shy) than be out with someone who was pretending to be something he wasn't.

 

When I first met my husband he was very shy. I attempted to flirt and when he didn't really respond, I figured he wasn't interested. This was on a busy night out with friends and I was introduced through friends of friends. It wasn't until I was alone with him and was able to have an actual conversation that we connected. It took a years worth of emails for us to begin to flirt. We were long distance so online communication was the only tool we had. I disagree that you can't form a connection with someone online. In fact, sometimes that is a good way to do so if you are not able to express yourself as freely in person. You just have to make sure there is a plan to meet up at some point.

 

Bottom line, be your authentic self. From your pic you seem to be a good looking guy. The only thing I would suggest trying to improve on is the eye contact. It throws people off if you can't look them in the eye. That doesn't mean you should stare at them all the time, but meeting their gaze now and then will help.

 

As for whether you are coming accross "creepy"....well as a lot of people said that can be subjective. I would pay attention if a woman is telling you that she feels unsafe or uncomfortable. It might not be anything specific you did, so much as it is a culture in which women routinely feel unsafe around strange men (especially ones they met online).

 

When I was using online dating I would always have an "emergency" plan anytime I went on a date. Meaning someone would knwo where I was at all times and if I was feeling unsafe or in danger, I would text a code word and they would get me out of that situation. This is not over the top, this is something women feel the need to do because for every few dates with genuinely nice men, you get one or two that don't understand the word 'no' and that is something we need to protect ourselves against. It might mean women are now overcautious but that is a product of modern culture. You just need to try to read their cues and be respectful if a woman tells you she doesn't want to see you again.

 

Good luck!