Help Needed - Long Post!

[Ice_9]

Hi guys, I'm new and I need your help. I'm a straight talker so appreciate no BS in return (but that's not the green light to be a * * * * , lol).

 

It's long and I've tried to break it up into sub sections. All I ask is that you appreciate I'm not a mug and I know my woman so believe what I say about her and don't think I'm deluded. Thx.

 

WHY WE SPLIT

She split partly because she felt we weren't going anywhere - I proposed 3 years ago but hadn't got her a ring (for various reasons) - but mainly because 6 months into our relationship, when she was 39, she got pregnant and I reacted badly. She miscarried a month later. Whenever she thinks about the baby and my rejection of her she breaks down.

 

On top of this, she's been let down all her life by men (her dad, ex hubby etc) so she feels that men use her and only see her as a casual relationship. She met me and as we never moved in (various reasons) and the ring never materialised she thought I was like all the rest.

 

EG: she broke up with me August 2010 for 2 months. I left it 10 days before going to see her. Her opening words were "I thought you'd forgotten about me" - translation: "I thought my fears were true and you don't care about me".

 

There’s other things such as she felt I treated her badly when I didn’t. See why I said I bet you haven't dealt with anything like this?

 

 

 

ATTEMPTED RECONCILIATION

We broke up July 30th I went round the week after and had a brief talk but had I followed it up, I wouldn't be here now. The NO CONTACT rule doesn't work with her as it just confirms her fears that she isn't loved. I missed her and late September I made contact via text and she said "go away, I'm seeing someone and want it to work". This sweetest woman I'd known was a * * * * * , it seems.

 

OCT 2 - SUNDAY

I went round and did the whole "love" speech and discovered that she wasn't being a cow but as she still loved me when we split, the easiest thing was to ignore me. This meeting went well as she clearly loved me. We kissed. She looked at me with her eyes of love, stroked my hand like she used to and was very intimate. And she ain't Meryl Streep - it was genuine.

 

She told me about new guy (been seeing him 7 weeks) and it smacked of a rebound:

a) met him just 2 weeks after me when she was still in love with me

b) had known him 20 years yet never felt anything for him (though he always had a thing for her)

c) didn't even want to go out with him when he asked her.

d) was moving very fast and within 4 weeks she'd told him she loved him (after he told her)

e) kept saying he adores her, he'd never hurt her. The thing she ALWAYS felt missing from her relationships he was giving her in spades - no doubt she was intoxicated.

f) she never talked about his qualities she was attracted to - only that he lavished her with attention.

 

I asked about us and she said, most tellingly: "my heart says yes but my head says no". That was major, I believed, as the love was there and the head can always be convinced and so I left asking for a talk to see if we can reconcile.

 

OCT 4 - TUESDAY

I went round for a 5 min friendly chat and to generate good vibes for me but she started about "us" and tried to back out of that reconciliation talk so it turned into a 90 min heavy talk. I asked if she loved me and she dodged for a bit with "I'll always care for you" when I put her on the spot, her defences came down, she looked at me longingly and in a similar tone of voice said "yes, yes I love you". Her argument against having that talk was that her friends & family all hate me because of the pregnancy, she doesn't want to 2 time new guy, doesn't want to risk ending a new relationship it for one she feels may fail again and she's worried she can't get over the miscarriage.

 

She delayed the talk with "I need time" and when I asked her to be straight with me if we were over she stuck to "I don’t know. I need time. I'm torn". As I left, I got 2 kisses (no tongues but sensual lip action).

 

 

OCT 8 - SUNDAY

I popped round just to show my face and we ended up in another hour long serious talk and she was again backing away despite admitting she loved me and despite kissing me as she saw me out.

 

 

OCT 9 - MONDAY

Terrible! We had a friendly phone call when all her resentment about the baby came out. She was crying and I raced over. We had a blazing row. She was screaming at me to get out and that that she can only depend on herself as no man will look after her

 

As I left I asked her if we were over for good (I assumed we were) yet even then, in all that anger, she didn’t accept. She still stuck with “I don’t know. I need time”. Again, that seemed a result because most people in that state would say “yes” - be it the truth she's been holding back or just to spite.

 

Up to this point, I’d come on strong in these talks (against the advice of the "how to win your ex back" sites) because she confessed she loved me and knowing she feels under pressure from her friends & family, as well as always seeking to avoid conflict (family + new guy) I believed she wanted me but was too scared so I was trying to help her through. I was also showing her with actions and not just words (which was always one of her criticisms of me).

 

 

OCT 17TH + ONWARDS

I wrote 2 letters (Oct 17th and Oct 24th) as I didn't want to harass her by keep turning up at her door unannounced nd she ignored both. When asked she said she was just trying to get on with her life. I then did something silly on Friday 28th Oct - I bought the engagement ring she always believed I never would. I did it because she was putting off the talk and so would never see that I was ready to back up my words with actions.

 

She returned it on Sunday 30th Oct. At the same time we talked a little and she mentioned again how she feels the resentment over the baby and that we wouldn’t work out. I asked her if she’d break off with this guy for us, she said “no”, and I asked if she’d have a two week break from him for us, again she said “no”, Sounds bad eh? But when I asked her if she loved me and she didn’t say “no” - she said “I don’t know” - not as good as 4 weeks ago when she said “yes” but at least it wasn’t “no”. And she still didn’t close the door on us despite me asking. She stuck with “I don’t know, maybe”. In all her answers she was genuine.

 

In the end I let her leave as we’d talked to death over the previous 4 weeks. I sent her a nice email and she replied back warmly - though with an ominous note about how she always had doubts about us. I replied that the doubts were because we never moved in, never appeased her fear I was treating her casually. I also asked 3 questions I forgot to ask:

 

1) How can you not know if you love someone or not?

2) What’s changed from 4 weeks ago when you admitted you did love me?

3) Were you genuine about the chance of us or was that a polite way of saying we’re over for good?

 

She replied saying she is too weary to answer and that she felt I was cornering her and not helping her stress levels. She still didn’t shut the door and said “I honestly don’t know what the future holds, I’m just trying to live day by day and need some normality for now”.

 

And this is where I am now. It's been a long time getting here, lol!

 

The cynic in me sees a constant pattern of rejection

* She refused that talk.

* She ended each of what she thought were parting emails with "take care" - ie: goodbye.

* She refused to break up with him.

* She refused to spend "friendly" time with me.

* Despite saying things that leave the door open she includes ominous comments about "us", like in her last email, and saying there are reasons why we won't work - ie: her mind's made up & not contemplating the options open to us.

 

 

The optimist in me sees a woman who love me and is torn

* She admitted she loved me & her body language showed she wasn't lying.

* She's scared of what friends & family would say and admits approval is important to her.

* She's scared of leaving a relationship that's started well, in order to come back to me, in case we fail (again).

* She never closed the door despite me giving her chances and asking her straight.

* She never closed the door during that row when anyone else would have bitten my hand off. She actually controlled her boiling anger to say “I don’t know, I need time” which was amazing. Not what you’d expect from someone who really doesn’t want you.

* She does love me and is telling the truth when she says she doesn't know what to think or what the future holds and that there is a chance for us.

 

 

 

SUMMARY

As much as I told you I know her and identified the occasions she was genuine, I really don't know anymore. I think she loves me but is unwilling to act on it, not after previous break ups, 5 years of not moving forward, her friends & family, and not whilst her current relationship is going okay (she says she loves him but she's alao said a few things that hint she has doubts about him).

 

I am lost. Was she being fair in not answering my 3 questions or was she avoiding? If she's not interested then why not tell me straight?

Does she love me or not? Is she gone regardless of her heart saying "yes"? What's the meaning of "I don't know" when I asked if she loves me and why has it changed since a few weeks ago?

 

Am I over valuing the fact she never took any opportunity to close the door and she's closed it without actually saying as much so as to keep her options open?

 

Have I blown it with my actions? Classic MY girlfriend is backing away when she's alone. That's why I tried popping round on Tues 4th and Sun 8th - to show my face and keep her from giving in to her cautious side. If she doesn't know, why follow up with "it's possible to love two people"?

 

And what do I do now? It's now been 3 months since we split and 2.5 since she met him, the guy she never fsancied and didn't even want to go out with. The longer I leave it the more she falls for him and the more I'm left like chopped liver. I'm tempted to tell her that I'm closing the door. I know that's not good but seeing as I don't have her anyway it might just kick her up the backside.

[tyr72]

What the two of you have is a pattern of co dependence. Based on the portrait you paint of her it seems that she has some issues to work out before she could be in a successful relationship and pile on top of that her resentment of you and your chances look pretty poor.

 

Regardless, she has made a decision that she is sticking by despite your attempts to change her mind. If you love her, if you respect her, then you'll abide by her decision and stop trying to sabotage it by showing up unannounced and contacting her. It is sabotage, and you're justifying it by treating the confusion and upset your presence causes her as a point of proof that she wants to be with you. Just because she cares for you and being without you is difficult doesn't mean that she isn't serious about moving on.

[Ice_9]

you're justifying it by treating the confusion and upset your presence causes her as a point of proof that she wants to be with you.

 

I appreciate all replies but you've taken me out of context or you've not read what I wrote (I know it was long but still...)

 

My "proof" (as you put it) that she wants to be with me is her telling me on 3 consecutive days that she loves me, it's kissing me and doing all the loving tender behaviour she used to do, it's the tonality of her voice and look on her face.

 

She only got upset at my presence once - when we had a row (that started over the phone) - all the other times she invited me in and she instigated talking about us. And I never assigned any confusion as proof she wants to be with me - only her actions & words that made it clear and also, after 5 years, my knowledge of her.

 

I guess I should have known better than to post to a bunch of strangers who psychoanalsyse about co-dependency & sabotage when they get the wrong end of the stick.

[Capricorn3]

I guess I should have known better than to post to a bunch of strangers who psychoanalsyse about co-dependency & sabotage when they get the wrong end of the stick.

I was going to reply until I saw this part. I guess it's better not to respond at all if you attack people who don't give you the replies you wish to receive.

[BlondeeBabee77]

Sounds like she isn't over you. She just wants to be happy shes staying with this other guy so things can be normal for her for once. She still loves you though.

[tyr72]

You actually seem to fit the codependent model quite closely. Don't take my word for it, you have Google at your finger-tips.

 

I'll give you that 'upset' was not the best word. I'm talking about inner turmoil here. When you are around she doesn't know what she wants or what to say - You get a lot of "I don't know", and "I need time". That she says she loves you doesn't mean she wants to get back together. Likewise, that she kissed you also doesn't mean that. People have sex after a break-up all the time without getting back together. That she is conflicted I have no doubt. Old relationships, feelings and patterns are familiar and comfortable which make them extremely attractive. However, she continues to stick to her guns despite your visits, despite saying she loves you, despite kissing you, and despite all the things you are taking as signs or signals from her.

 

The whole purpose of continuing to contact her is to convince her to leave her new boyfriend, to persuade her to forego her decision to move on, and your methods to do so are to pop in unannounced to have your face seen, for a friendly chat, etc - things that are designed to keep your face in her mind, keep her questioning her decision, and keep her from focusing or becoming too comfortable with her new relationship. They are emotionally manipulative. As they say, "All is fair in love and war", but this is sabotage no matter how you look at it.

 

Before I was married I was in a relationship with a woman who had issues very similar to your ex. A woman whose dad had run off and left her and her family destitute when she was young, a string of worthless boyfriends, etc. She would run and I would chase her to prove that I was different, that I loved her, that I wouldn't abandon her. I endured the various tests: "Will you love me if I'm hateful?", "Will you love me if I'm distant?", "Will you love me if..." It was a co-dependent relationship, and yours shows the same symptoms.

 

I can only respond to you from my own experience. That it isn't what you wanted to hear seems to have made you angry. That is usually an indicator that something has hit closer to home than is comfortable. I have no personal stake in the outcome of your situation. It will not impact my life in the slightest, nor will it anyone else's here who will give you advice. Because of that you can trust us to tell you the absolute truth as we see it. You certainly don't have to like or take the advice, but it would be to your benefit to at least give it honest consideration.

[Ice_9]

Sounds like she isn't over you. She just wants to be happy shes staying with this other guy so things can be normal for her for once. She still loves you though.

 

Sounds good to me

[Ice_9]

Tyr72,

 

You didn't hit a nerve - you just came accross like you were making grand (and wrong) assumptions. However, I see what you're getting at now that you've clarified your point and I see you weren't being as dismissive as I first thought. So thanks and apologies.

 

I can't argue too much with what you've expanded upon. You aren't wrong in your assessment of the intention of my visits but an important distinction is that it's less to do with sabotaging the new relationship and more to do with winning her back because I feel she's made a mistake. Yes, you can't win without sabotaging but my motives are positive and done with the best of intentions whereas "sabotage" is just vindictive.

 

I maintain the new guy is a rebound and that she loves me but fears her beliefs are true and we'll spin wheels for another 5 years (she admitted this when I first visited her). I also maintain that had we addressed her "casual" - move in together, get engaged as we'd discussed, given her that security - then we'd be together now. (in fact this past year we both thought the other didn't care and we were both wrong!) She always said: "I need action, not words. Prove you mean what you say" it's just that I can't "prove" unless she gives me another chance. So I do believe she wants me back but isn't willing to risk a burgeoning relationship for one that's failed in the past (and fears will do so again - see my comment about us both being wrong about the past year) because if we fail then she's lost both guys. I see her logic (or fear).

 

But yeah, you are right about advice only affecting me which is why I have listened and not flown off the handle. Thanks again. It would be great if the questions in my summary could be addresses. I know her so well and know when she was being truthful but those questions are the things I am uncertain of - and it's killing me. I just keep formulating different answers everytime and they qon't go away. Also, the last conversation on Sunday, ended with me keeping the door open and waiting for her to return which I admit was needy and I need to address that but the only way I can think of is to tell her I've closed the door but that's not going to be a smart move.

[Ice_9]

BTW, not sure if this helps any but during these talks, when I told her I was serious and explained about the delay in moving in and the ring, she said there are two me's. The loving and considerate one who is here, expressing his love and the other who is happy plodding along, sat on his arse. To be fair, that wasn't the case but I see how it seemed that way, especially as her penchant is to avoid conflic and sotre up her issues untl they explode in a break up speech rather than speak up and nip them in the bud.

[Ice_9]

Also, we'd talked kids again last year. (I'd been on board for 2.5 yrs but that's another story). She felt her time had gone but I started researching and got my news in July just before we split. It's very good news about a form of IVF. If I go NC then I can't share it and time is of the essence as she's 44 but if I do tell her then I'm not giving her space.

[camus154]

1. You don't propose without a ring. Ever.

2. You hurt her in ways that you'll probably never comprehend by the way you reacted when she was pregnant.

3. Your every move since the break up has been entirely out of self-interest. She asked for time, you didn't give it to her. The threat of this other man is what this is really about, not love or anything like it.

 

So. If you really love her, just like tyr72 said, then leave her be and let HER make up her own mind.

[Ice_9]

1. You don't propose without a ring. Ever.

2. You hurt her in ways that you'll probably never comprehend by the way you reacted when she was pregnant.

3. Your every move since the break up has been entirely out of self-interest. She asked for time, you didn't give it to her. The threat of this other man is what this is really about, not love or anything like it.

 

So. If you really love her, just like tyr72 said, then leave her be and let HER make up her own mind.

 

1) It was in a really romantic moment on holiday. Spur of the moment, making love - I couldn't hold it in.

 

2) You're right. She got pregnant after just 5 months and I wasn't ready for kids - I can't help that and that doesn't make me evil.

 

3) Don't you EVER tell me what my motives are and don't you EVER tell me if I am acting out of love or not. You know NOTHING and have no comprehension of the love I feel for her. I'm all for advice and criticism on my actions but NEVER dare to call me on, and disparage, my feelings. Everything I have said is true, take it or leave it. What you've done is disgraceful - disrespecting my honesty and integrity - anonymous internet message board or not.

 

No, the threat of the man is not the issue because I'd been missing her during the 6 weeks of relative no contact (I'd been emailing her during this and seen her twice). Did I get my skates on when I relaised she was dating someone? Of course I did. I no longer had the luxury of continuing to give her all the time she needed, which, ironically, you're criticising me for not giving her now.

 

As for not giving her time, it was just to arrange the talk she agreed to. I told her I won't wait for weeks and she agreed to that and agreed to talk soon (I assumed it would be in a few days). I gave her a week inbetween each contact, which is long enough to arrange a time and venue. Maybe I should have given her longer but I was only going off what we'd agreed.

 

Yes, I'll leave her to make up her own mind - but I always have done so put away your CAPS lock. I only hung around and did what I did because she admitted she loved me and was scared to take another chance with me, especially with the external pressures on her. I would've walked otherwise - which makes amockery of yoru claim I only acted out of self interest. I genuinely thought I was helping her make the tough decision to break his heart, to look stupid to her friends & family, and to take another leap of faith on us. I did it for HER and for US, not just me.

[camus154]

1) It was in a really romantic moment on holiday. Spur of the moment, making love - I couldn't hold it in.

 

Sure you could have. You just chose not to. But I understand getting swept up in the moment. But you did buy her a ring immediately afterwards, yeah?

 

2) You're right. She got pregnant after just 5 months and I wasn't ready for kids - I can't help that and that doesn't make me evil.

 

But you could help how you handled it, yeah? And I thought that's what hurt her. No one's calling you evil, all I said was that you hurt her in a way you probably can't comprehend.

 

3) Don't you EVER tell me what my motives are and don't you EVER tell me if I am acting out of love or not. You know NOTHING and have no comprehension of the love I feel for her. I'm all for advice and criticism on my actions but NEVER dare to call me on, and disparage, my feelings. Everything I have said is true, take it or leave it. What you've done is disgraceful - disrespecting my honesty and integrity - anonymous internet message board or not.

 

You're going to need a thicker skin if you want to air out your dirty laundry in public and then solicit opinions about it, guy. Your feelings and motivations aren't sacrosanct or that unique, trust me. I know plenty. For instance, waiting until you're broken up and your ex is with another man to buy her an engagement ring is a sign of desperation, not love.

[shortest_straw90]

You need to chill out mate, these guys are doing exactly what you asked them to do and giving you no bs answers. Every time you read something you dont like you seem to get really frustrated about it.

Dont get so angry about what people are saying just read it and have a bit of a think about it.

When somebody has said something I didnt like and I disagreed with it, its usually turned out to be true in the end.

Let me just suggest to you one thing (and this is all the advice I will give) NO CONTACT!

Until you have gone NC for a while you wont be thinking clearly, even if your certain that you are thinking clearly, your not its as simple as that.

Stop talking to her its the only way forward for the both of you.

Im not thinking clearly now, but I feel so much better now than when I was clinging onto her.