Human Nature and Trust

[LoveMySon]

Oh, snap. Ouch. I didn't see her other threads. Now that is unfortunate.

 

so im supposed to let him do whatever he wants to sexually please himself and live with it and be miserable? that's pretty much what you guys are saying. Yeah sure I'll try that one.... You think men can do whatever they want as long as they are happy? It doesn't matter if you disrespect your loved one? That make a ton of sense. There is a lot of stuff I don't do because I respect my boyfriend and even though I would like to do it, I don't. And I'm perfectly happy with it because I know that it makes him happy and secure.

[stillstunned]

well if it isn't meant to be then it isnt' meant to be. I don't need a man to live and be happy. It's not worth being with somebody who doesn't meet your wants and needs in the long run if you aren't happy. I give chances but not a ton. Maybe you didnt read the part that said one more time and im out. Im not going to live in misery without a man if they aren't what i want.

 

Don't take this the wrong way, but there isn't a man alive that is going to match up to your expectations. No porn, no looking, telling every detail about every past sexual experience, every encounter, every conversation. People aren't wired like that. You have EVERY right to expect no cheating, physical or emotional. You have EVERY right to expect him to be there for you when you need him. You have EVERY right to expect a closeness with him that he shares with no one else emotionally.

 

But to expect him to pretend you are the only girl on the planet and that the act of looking at another female falls somewhere between disrespectful and cheating? That's overkill on a grand scale.

[stillstunned]

so im supposed to let him do whatever he wants to sexually please himself and live with it and be miserable? that's pretty much what you guys are saying. Yeah sure I'll try that one.... You think men can do whatever they want as long as they are happy? It doesn't matter if you disrespect your loved one? That make a ton of sense. There is a lot of stuff I don't do because I respect my boyfriend and even though I would like to do it, I don't. And I'm perfectly happy with it because I know that it makes him happy and secure.

 

Big difference between doing whatever they want and looking at a magazine. You shouldn't be miserable because he occassionally watches porn. You shouldn't think seeing another female (picture) is cheating.

 

I'm curious - what is it you want to do that you don't because of your boyfriend?

[hexaemeron]

Don't take this the wrong way, but there isn't a man alive that is going to match up to your expectations. No porn, no looking, telling every detail about every past sexual experience, every encounter, every conversation. People aren't wired like that. You have EVERY right to expect no cheating, physical or emotional. You have EVERY right to expect him to be there for you when you need him. You have EVERY right to expect a closeness with him that he shares with no one else emotionally.

 

But to expect him to pretend you are the only girl on the planet and that the act of looking at another female falls somewhere between disrespectful and cheating? That's overkill on a grand scale.

 

Most young people (and even as they get older still) base the entirety of their self-esteem on what others believe of them, or more correctly, what someone THINKS someone else thinks of them. So this isn't entirely surprising. Once people do base their self-esteem on internal things versus the craving for external validation, the attitudes usually change re: this as well.

[stillstunned]

if he cant enjoy my view enough that he has to look at another, than obviously Im not good enough

 

So him looking at porn is a sign that YOU aren't good enough? It isn't that he is visually stimulated and is using a non-personal means as an outlet. It's that you aren't good enough.

 

OK, you win.

[rosephase]

It's funny. I always break down trust differently. I'm in an open poly relationship and without trust and honesty relationships like mine crash and burn.

 

For me the question about trust has always been is it something people earn? Or something people are given?

 

If my partner messes up and breaks a rule I have the option of sitting back and making them "earn" my trust again or giving it to them even in the face of feeling like a fool and being hurt if it is broken.

 

I love my partners so much I give them my trust. Sometimes I have to work on myself to do that but it's worth it for me. Instead of looking at how trust can be broken or fade away I try to think about how it can be built and given more freely.

 

There is no point in being in a relationship with someone I don't trust. But I'm responsible for how much a trust someone. I have the power to give my trust. I guess how it breaks down for me is; I would rather be overly trusting and get hurt then spend my time caught up in how much and how far a trust my partners. If I'm with you I will do my best to get over my fears and trust you. Even if you mess up. Even if I get hurt. And I would hope you would do the same for me.

[LoveMySon]

So him looking at porn is a sign that YOU aren't good enough? It isn't that he is visually stimulated and is using a non-personal means as an outlet. It's that you aren't good enough.

 

OK, you win.

 

how is watching naked girls not personal? YOU GET OFF ON IT. Do you really think God would aprove of you getting of on looking at other naked bodies than your significant others?

[LoveMySon]

Don't take this the wrong way, but there isn't a man alive that is going to match up to your expectations. No porn, no looking, telling every detail about every past sexual experience, every encounter, every conversation. People aren't wired like that. You have EVERY right to expect no cheating, physical or emotional. You have EVERY right to expect him to be there for you when you need him. You have EVERY right to expect a closeness with him that he shares with no one else emotionally.

 

But to expect him to pretend you are the only girl on the planet and that the act of looking at another female falls somewhere between disrespectful and cheating? That's overkill on a grand scale.

 

then i will be happily independent all my life. thanks.

[Lamour detruit]

how is watching naked girls not personal? YOU GET OFF ON IT. Do you really think God would aprove of you getting of on looking at other naked bodies than your significant others?

 

I reckon he'd be pleased as can be.

 

Watching naked girls is not personal considering there is no interaction. Most guys get off on porn starting at the age of 13. It becomes a process that "just is" to many guys, one that has absolutely no significance or meaning except for getting off without any hassle, emotion..or anything. You watch when you're bored, you get off..you're done. I would say it is the utmost opposite side of personal as can be.

[LoveMySon]

Big difference between doing whatever they want and looking at a magazine. You shouldn't be miserable because he occassionally watches porn. You shouldn't think seeing another female (picture) is cheating.

 

I'm curious - what is it you want to do that you don't because of your boyfriend?

 

I don't think it is cheating. I just think it's disrespectful.

I keep my eyes to myself, I don't go out when he doesn't want me to, I don't drink or smoke, I respect his wishes, and anything that he wouldn't want me to do no matter how stupid it is just out of respect for him. It wouldn't be because of him, it would be for him. I wouldn't ever do anything that he isn't uncomfortable with me doing.

[stillstunned]

how is watching naked girls not personal? YOU GET OFF ON IT. Do you really think God would aprove of you getting of on looking at other naked bodies than your significant others?

 

God? Really? Please don't take this the wrong way, but did God approve of you having sex out of wedlock and bearing a child?

 

God isn't a part time thing. If you're going to use religion as a rationale for what is and isn't acceptable, doesn't that need to be for everything?

[LoveMySon]

God? Really? Please don't take this the wrong way, but did God approve of you having sex out of wedlock and bearing a child?

 

God isn't a part time thing. If you're going to use religion as a rationale for what is and isn't acceptable, doesn't that need to be for everything?

 

Well I have asked for forgiveness and have renewed my relationship with him since. Porn is a disgusting thing. Having a baby with someone you dearly love and have been with for a very long time is too? Not quite. I don't think God is sending me to hell because I have a baby and I'm not married. We are pretty much married anyways, its just not legal because we dont have time and cant afford it. But in my eyes we are pretty much married. I believe God understands that also.

[stillstunned]

Well I have asked for forgiveness and have renewed my relationship with him since. Porn is a disgusting thing. Having a baby with someone you dearly love and have been with for a very long time is too? Not quite. I don't think God is sending me to hell because I have a baby and I'm not married. We are pretty much married anyways, its just not legal because we dont have time and cant afford it. But in my eyes we are pretty much married. I believe God understands that also.

 

I believe God understands men like to look at women. He made men after all. Having an attraction and acting on an attraction aren't the same thing.

[LoveMySon]

I believe God understands men like to look at women. He made men after all. Having an attraction and acting on an attraction aren't the same thing.

 

Well I know he doesn't approve of porn. And my belief isn't going to change. So stop trying to change it. I'm done with this conversation. I don't even know why I joined this website. It's just making me more insecure and depressed than before I joined. I thought it was somewhere that you could reach out to people, and the would help you.... But all you guys are doing is criticizing me for all of my beliefs. Thanks for all the help.... Not.

[hexaemeron]

Well I know he doesn't approve of porn. And my belief isn't going to change. So stop trying to change it. I'm done with this conversation. I don't even know why I joined this website. It's just making me more insecure and depressed than before I joined. I thought it was somewhere that you could reach out to people, and the would help you.... But all you guys are doing is criticizing me for all of my beliefs. Thanks for all the help.... Not.

 

How can you expect help though if you want 100% of everyone to 100% support every belief or decision you've made? Asking for help means opening yourself truly to new ideas and perspectives.

 

I mean, I'm a gay man. Should I not help you because your religion says I'm an evil spawned from hell? Of course not. I'm a person and you're a person and I'm here to help. That doesn't mean you'll always like everything (or anything!) I have to say, but it's always in an effort to help.

[stillstunned]

Well I know he doesn't approve of porn. And my belief isn't going to change. So stop trying to change it. I'm done with this conversation. I don't even know why I joined this website. It's just making me more insecure and depressed than before I joined. I thought it was somewhere that you could reach out to people, and the would help you.... But all you guys are doing is criticizing me for all of my beliefs. Thanks for all the help.... Not.

 

You KNOW he doesn't approve of porn? But he's fine with you having sex out of wedlock?

 

Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is.

 

How many wives did Abraham have?

[LoveMySon]

How can you expect help though if you want 100% of everyone to 100% support every belief or decision you've made? Asking for help means opening yourself truly to new ideas and perspectives.

 

I mean, I'm a gay man. Should I not help you because your religion says I'm an evil spawned from hell? Of course not. I'm a person and you're a person and I'm here to help. That doesn't mean you'll always like everything (or anything!) I have to say, but it's always in an effort to help.

 

Well criticizing and telling me I'm wrong isn't helping. It just makes things worse.

[LoveMySon]

Well criticizing and telling me I'm wrong isn't helping. It just makes things worse.

 

let me rephrase that.... telling me to pretty much change everything i believe and do stuff that make me unhappy is not right.

[stillstunned]

Well criticizing and telling me I'm wrong isn't helping. It just makes things worse.

 

Did someone say you were wrong, or did people comment that you have unrealistic expectations? Those aren't the same thing.

 

Hex is right - you need to have more of an open mind about things if you want to reach out to others. Everyone would like to help you, but no one is here to just say "oh, you poor thing - he's a BEAST!!" You wanted to discuss it and, I'm assuming, get opinions. You got them.

 

Does the fact that everyone's opinion seems similar except yours make you rethink your position, or even think about rethinking it?

 

The group isn't always right, but does it stop and make you reassess your own beliefs?

[LoveMySon]

Did someone say you were wrong, or did people comment that you have unrealistic expectations? Those aren't the same thing.

 

Hex is right - you need to have more of an open mind about things if you want to reach out to others. Everyone would like to help you, but no one is here to just say "oh, you poor thing - he's a BEAST!!" You wanted to discuss it and, I'm assuming, get opinions. You got them.

 

Does the fact that everyone's opinion seems similar except yours make you rethink your position, or even think about rethinking it?

 

The group isn't always right, but does it stop and make you reassess your own beliefs?

 

I think porn is wrong. Period. Can my boyfriend watch it? I wish he didn't but I can't force him not to. Maybe I would have a more open mind about these things if it hasn't been hidden from me and lied about for the whole 4 years of my relationship. All I ask is that I am told about it being bought and watched, but that has never happened. I have every right to hate it. Buying porn and watching it behind my back and lying about it to my face is VERY disrespectful. Am I supposed to be ok with my significant other doing this? In my situation I feel porn close to cheating.

[Elisian]

Haha, well this thread got a little off topic. I think that was a little overkill with Lovemyson, you can't force ideas that entrenched down peoples throats and expect a happy ending. I hope things work out in the end.

 

But going back to trust, it seems like the dichotomy you presented was a little forced.

 

 

 

First of all, what is trust? I think it means you expect someone to act consistently in a certain manner and in the best cases according to the way you would like the person to act. In the "best" cases, you expect the person to act according to the morals and values you uphold.

 

So how can you expect to trust anyone absolutely, unless that person is yourself. Why do people surround themselves with people with shared values? Because those people can be trusted to act in accordance with your own value system. To act as you would act. Laws and tradition additionally serve to aid this homogeny of order and trust. Thus I can trust most people to respond to situations in predictable ways. When those expectations are violated, I lose a degree of trust as a result.

 

However, trust is situational. The better I get to know you the better I can judge what I can expect from you and what to trust you with. What I entrust to my best friend is very different from what I entrust to my mother or my teacher, for example. And the subject of what I trust them with will be specific to the subject as well as the person.

 

But always, that trust stems from a situational expectation.

 

 

 

As always, hex, your thread is very thought provoking.

[Firiel]

About trust... well, I think (as with most things) both sides have a potential danger. Like hex said, if you only trust someone until something suspicious/uncomfortable comes up, then are you really trusting them? But on the other side, trusting someone completely despite suspicious circumstances can lead a person to basically be an idiot. "Oh, well, I know he talks to her on the phone all the time, and I know they hang out while I'm working nights, and I know they call each other 'cutie,' and I know he's been uninterested in sex lately, but I trust him!" Both of those (extreme) scenarios indicate an emotionally troubled person. In one, the person is so paranoid that they don't fully trust a person, even if s/he is perfectly trustworthy. In the other, a person is co-dependent enough to blind themselves to his/her partner's actions in order to maintain the "perfect," "loving" relationship. I tend to fall on choice B. I trust completely, but if you are that way, it's good to remember not to be an idiot as well.

 

An interesting example of choice B... one time, when I told my now husband I was at work, he drove by a car that was identical to mine (and this wasn't a super common car) parked by a house he was unfamiliar with. He saw a girl of my build and hair style entering into this strange house (and he couldn't tell that it wasn't me because he only got a glimpse). So he brought it up that night. He explained the situation and asked if I had really been at work. And when I explained everything to him (that I had been at work and that I used to drive by that car every day but I didn't know it was still in the city), it was over. He believed me. But I don't think his questioning of me indicated a lack of trust. I think if he hadn't mentioned it, it would have indicated stupidity.

[hexaemeron]

Thanks, I try. -- I just find it fascinating how many times I see people here say "Oh I trust him completely, but--" or "It's the other girls I don't trust!!!!" -- both of which seem completely lame and bs to me in a long term relationship sense when someone's always been trustworthy. It's just a convenient, societally-approved way of indulging irrational insecurities at the expense of someone those people purport to love and respect.

[greywolf]

I wouldn't say that I have absolute trust or that it's on a spectrum.

 

With my ex, I didn't trust him to not meet someone else that he liked that he might want to pursue, or trust him to be 100% committed to me while we were together, but I did trust him to care about my feelings, I trusted his judgment on what was appropriate or inappropriate to do while in a relationship, and I trusted him to tell me the important things even if they were hard to talk about.

 

But now, I think that if I was ever suspicious about something, I wouldn't let it go so easily. I don't think I'd just write it off as, "he'll/she'll tell me if it's something that I need to know about." Maybe I've just been burned too many times, but now I feel like I can't expect people to be as honest and open with me as I am with them.