peebo Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 So I overheard a conversation on campus and these couple girls were just tearing nice guys a new one. I got curious later on and checked it out on the internet and found some websites that were saying similar things. To be fair, they attempt to made a distinction between genuinely nice men and the type of guy they put in scare quotes. But still. I recognize some of this, but most of it seems completely off. With regards to some of the behaviors, I honestly do not know what they are talking about. This only bugs me because I've been referred to as a nice guy in the past. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about (take out the white spaces and add stuff if needed): 1. trishwilson. typepad. com/blog/2008/06/nuts4chic---abo.html 2. heart less-bi link removed /rants/niceguys/ Link to comment
AnonymousJohn Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Carefull bringing this one up, it is quite the sensitive issue. One that most people aren't willing to discuss rationally. You are more likely to be attacked, and made to feel like an idiot for even asking. You may get a few serious answers, but the rest will just be attacks, not only directed at you, but directed toward all "nice guys". The best thing to do is accept that the world craps on nice people and move on. Notice, I said "nice people" and not "nice guys" because "nice girls" face the same problems. Kindess has become misinturpreted. It's not just in dealings with the opposite sex. If you will notice, at your place of employement nice people rarely ever receive that big promotion. Because they dont want to screw someone else over to get it. The world has come to look down on nice people. And assumes that no one is genuinely nice, they are just putting on a nice act. Link to comment
chinook86 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Nice is just poor word choice. If you read the articles they are complaining about guys that are desperate and whiny. I for one see their argument. They should give a different label to people like that, because there are nice guys that don't fit this description. Link to comment
AnonymousJohn Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Indeed, but no-one seems to make the distinction between "nice guys" and the people the articles are talking about. Link to comment
Haven Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 When people hate on nice guys, they're really talking about guys who use niceness in attempt to get girls to like them. Usually this is because the guy is insecure or has low confidence and doesn't think he can get a girl to date him any other way. Most girls can see through this and the guy ends up being "friend-zoned" and then starts complaining about why no one ever wants to date nice guys. It is pretty easy to tell the difference between a genuinely nice guy and a guy using niceness to get something. Of course the problem is that the guy himself is usually good at self-deception and will consider himself a genuinely nice guy. If you've ever been used as a doormat or found yourself doing things for a girl because you thought it would make her like you or keep her interested in you, then you were the "nice guy". Link to comment
Organs Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Not that I can make a change, but maybe we should start calling guys like that "slimy". Link to comment
marco76uk Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yeah, those "nice guy" pieces were the first serious dating advice I found on the internet. As is said here and there, the problem is not being nice, it's using niceness as your strategy to try and get what you want. As they say, that gets you at best friend-zoned and at worst used. I don't agree so much when they imply that confidence is the be all and end all. Yes it's important, but unfortunately things don't magically happen when you just believe in yourself. Link to comment
LightbulbSun Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I don't see being nice as a bad thing, in fact it's a good thing. It's only when you decieve people in order to get what you want by being nice that it becomes a bad thing. Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I'd like to make a difference between "nice" and "good". I think the impression is that nice guys are passive and/or manipulative, both of which women don't like. Good guys avoid the passiveness and manipulativeness for the most part. That's why good guys get the girl and nice guys finish last. Link to comment
Lonewing Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 So it's better to be mean to get what you want? I believe the distinction here between the slimy one and the nice ones is that people want the nice ones and they don't want the slimy ones - for whatever reason. I've come to believe that people are uncomfortable recieving something without knowing what the other person wants in return, as if that has to be obvious. And even fruther uncomfortable giving something on that same level because they just aren't interested in going to that level - WITH that particular person. Hence, the actions of a nice guy just lead to unending guilt for the recieving party. And the nice guy ends upon a position of unrequitted return - no wonder they start whining - it's called frustration! Nice guys are still rooted in an idealistic world - give them enough time, they'll be made realistic just soon enough!!! Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 So it's better to be mean to get what you want? Was that directed at me? If so, I didn't mean "be mean and get what you want". I meant "be a good guy, but be assertive and not a doormat." Link to comment
Lonewing Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Was that directed at me? If so, I didn't mean "be mean and get what you want". I meant "be a good guy, but be assertive and not a doormat." What this goes back to is the lack of consideration others have for one another - hence how some people get treated like doormats - it takes two for a doormat to be used. It gets more difficult if you are in a society surrounded by people who are grown but not necessarily grown up. Link to comment
marco76uk Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 One of the textbook behaviours of insecure, unhappy people (not just in the dating world) is what I call "gift warfare". They go over the top with generosity, giving you things you didn't actually want and weren't consulted about, then if they don't get exactly the right gratitude at exactly the right moment they throw a massive strop. Nice Guy behaviour is really just a more subtle version of that. I guess that if you're every bit as kind, generous and chivalrous towards girls you're not attracted to as towards girls you are attracted to then that's a very good thing. But if you suddenly become a whole lot nicer to someone because you want something in return, that is not good. Link to comment
peebo Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 I've never heard anyone whine about this, which is partially why I find it dubious. As someone who has trouble with women (no girlfriends, no kissing, etc), I don't understand why anyone in my situation would tell people about it, outside the anonymity of the internet. I doubt any of my friends even know this about me since I've never told anyone and when asked I lie... Link to comment
CaseOfInsanity Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 What this goes back to is the lack of consideration others have for one another - hence how some people get treated like doormats - it takes two for a doormat to be used. Although there are many people out there that are considerate unlike those people, I just find it sad that this is true and that this is the way it has been and always will be. Link to comment
surfNski Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Just my experiance but look around and see how many women do you see with guys that cheat on them, use them, beat them, and just plain treat them like dirt...tons. And many times they are attractive woman to. Remember that old saying "nice guys finish last"? Why do you think its been around so long? (I am not advocating this type of treatment of women I am just pointing out a reality) Link to comment
notsogood Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Ever hear people throw around the term to someone "You are so nice! You are boyfriend material!" Although it never works out that way. What she really means is you are someone that a someone else could marry but you can't ever get there because you are too nice and too used to being used. Ive been there and done that now once you stop caring to some extent it is better. They should change the word nice with the words desperate/insecure/clingy. That is really what they are talking about. Don't be mean to someone to get them to like you. Just act like you don't care half the time, then the other half treat her "nice". It's a fine line but it works trust me. Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Ever hear people throw around the term to someone "You are so nice! You are boyfriend material!" Although it never works out that way. What she really means is you are someone that a someone else could marry but you can't ever get there because you are too nice and too used to being used. Ive been there and done that now once you stop caring to some extent it is better. They should change the word nice with the words desperate/insecure/clingy. That is really what they are talking about. Don't be mean to someone to get them to like you. Just act like you don't care half the time, then the other half treat her "nice". It's a fine line but it works trust me. Yeah, I agree with this. I used to consider myself a nice guy, and actually call myself a nice guy. Bad idea. There is a stigma that nice guys are great friends, but just aren't boyfriend material. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've got the feeling that quite a few women out there might reject a guy just because he calls himself a nice guy. And as I said in a different post, I'm tired of being single, never some wonderful girl's boyfriend. Thus I'm not a "nice guy" anymore. However, I'm still a good guy. I treat girls like they deserve to be treated (which is well and with respect among other things), but I refuse to be a doormat. If someone voices an opinion that I disagree with, I can respectfully but firmly disagree with them out loud. I'm also being a lot more proactive than I ever used to be - another stigma associated with nice guys is that they're too passive. I'm going for what I want (passionately), and I'm not going to let anything stop me. I'm also being a bit careful - going for a girl too quickly will likely get her guard up (she'll think you're clingy/desperate/needy). I do this by reminding myself that I barely know these girls I'm meeting - there's no way to tell how a relationship would go! A girl and I might grow to need each other in time, but again, no way to tell from the outset. Link to comment
notsogood Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Hey ya totally agree. Ive come to the conclusion that it's better to go about your life the way you want to live it. Like pursue your dreams and goals then find someone along the way. Be proactive as you do these things but don't sidetrack yourself. I did that for a while and it got me set back like 2 years of my life and now i'm finally 3 years after graduating college changing my lifestyle to what I want to do instead of what society said I should do to be "successful" and get girls. Oh I did get some girls but it ended up in failure always. Btw I saw your pic in your profile and you're a good looking guy. You're still single? See i'm guessing you were the "nice" guy too for quite a while until recently? I was until like 2 months ago haha. Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 You're still single? See i'm guessing you were the "nice" guy too for quite a while until recently? I was until like 2 months ago haha. haha Yeah. I was way too nice, way too passive. Now that I've started being proactive, I'm finally getting some positive feedback from girls (mostly on online dating websites), which has done wonders for my confidence. But I had to make the decision to be proactive before getting the positive feedback. It was definitely a gamble, but I think it was a good one! Link to comment
em22 Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Such a bad human habit, categorizing. Link to comment
Symbolic Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 I don't know about all this "nice guy hiding behind a "slime guy" stuff. Here is what I think. Why is nice guy nice? Because really, he is a bad person..trying to pretend to be nice so that he can find a girlfriend? No. This is how I see it from my experience. I think nice guy is nice...because maybe nice guy doesn't know the social standards. Nice guy doesn't know how assertive he can be before a girl will get mad and dump him. Nice guy hasn't a clue about not being a doormat, nice guy thinks women will drop him as easily as a summer breeze blows a leaf around. Nice guy may have low confidence, for a reason. Maybe he was demoralized growing up. Nice guy is not "ew that slime that uses niceness to get what he wants" but rather "nice guy who is nice because he doesn't know what the normal social actions are". I don't like this slimy guy who is maniuplative bullcrap. If I was nice to a girl in the past, I was nice because I didn't KNOW I could be mean, or "assertive" with a girl. I know this now! I know women like that. But back in the day I didn't have a clue. I just wanted to be with somebody. What is wrong with that? I never manipulated anbody. I'm a nice person, I know I can be mean to people and they will even like me better than before! But I still have great difficulty being mean to somebody. Its not who I am. I'm not somebody who manipulates people. Nor was I ever. I simply didn't know what I could or SHOULD do. I think a nice guy lacks experience with women for one reason or another. Why does this guy have to be considered worthless to women. That is why they complain. Not everybody has the great life to grow up and have tons of friends and hang out with girls and learn how things are supposed to be. these guys are upset because they don't understand. These guys are upset because they know they are great people but women wont give them the time of day to figure it out. They probably don't realize that women don't like "doormats", guys who are passive. I don't see why somebody who had a sub-par social experience growing up has to be a manipulator. Maybe there are people out there who really do use niceness to manipulate women to get what they want. But I'm damn sure that is a minority of nice guys. We are just guys who never learned the way things are. I mean cmon. If you think a nice guy is manipulating you...what about all the other guys? Putting on an act? Guys who really arent as cool as you think..as far as I know guys lie all the time about all kinds of stuff. Everything seems to be an act. It seems to me like it is so rare for a person to be genuine and you always find out who the person really is when you start dating..and then you get hurt and complain about guys being dirt bags and breaking your heart. I bet that nice guy is more genuine than any of those other guys. Edit: Just because somebody grew up with a crappy life does not make them a worthless individual who should die and rot alone. Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 *applauds Symbolic* WELL SAID, MAN! You basically described my life up to this point perfectly. Always was too nice for women to be attracted to me... trying to be more assertive now (though not to the point of "mean"). Link to comment
marco76uk Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 There's definitely something in what you say, Symbolic. I'm not generally a fan of the Freudian, blame everything on a traumatic incident in childhood, school of psychology, but shyness/niceness do come from somewhere. Until I was about 9, I was really quite boisterous and confident in school groups. Then I started to get in trouble for being arrogant, and very quickly changed to feeling that I had to keep my head down and be inoffensive to everyone. I could still open up among close friends, but I probably gave very closed first impressions, which I've generally improved but still slip up occasionally. The point is that when you first meet someone, they can only go on what you give them. They don't know your life story and things they should be extra understanding about, they will just go by the instinct you arouse. So if the vibe you give off is of someone who's being nice but wants something from her and she isn't sure what, she'll think "creep" and move on. It may be totally inaccurate and unfair, but there's no court of law you can take it to. Link to comment
Knight of Hope Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 So if the vibe you give off is of someone who's being nice but wants something from her and she isn't sure what, she'll think "creep" and move on. It may be totally inaccurate and unfair, but there's no court of law you can take it to. Well, there should be! lol I know I've had enough bad luck and bad treatment from women in my life that it's definitely criminal (from my point of view anyway). Sue all the girls in my past that have treated me badly, and WHEN I win, I get the girl of my dreams. Let's get this signed into law! Anyway, I've always been introverted, and I always will be. I used to be shy - was recently told by a friend that I'm not anymore (I trust this because I've only known her since July, so her opinion is still fresh). The only problem I still have is being seen as a "nice guy". This stems a lot from listening to girls on matters of dating - it's always been easier for me to ask a girl for dating advice than to ask a guy. But I can't behave like a girl if I want a girl to like me! Straight girls want men - not another girl. It also comes from genuinely empathetic. This is what I think pretty often: "I may not know you, but you're a person just like me. You have feelings, and I understand them, and I understand how it feels when they get hurt. I don't want to hurt them. I don't want to hurt you." Notice that nowhere in there was "I am going to pretend to be a gentleman so I can get you in the sack." I'm the real deal, and it frustrates me to no end that this is not recognized. Sorry, that became a rant. I'll stop there, while it's still somewhat logical and actually still contributes to discussion. Link to comment
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