redswim30

On 1/5/2023 at 1:20 PM, kreed said:

 

Inevitably no matter how I answer this question "I am fine, everything is great." or "Nothing why" has lead to a fight. In these moments she will say back to me "Are you sure because I feel like you are being a little short with me." or "You haven't really said anything to me all morning, are you sure everything is okay?" --- this despite the fact that she will have been asleep or I will have been taking a nap hence making it impossible for something to be "wrong". 

I need help on how to answer this question and shut it down - it's making me constantly feel like something is wrong with me... I am really starting to wonder if she is just not happy with me and this is a form of her projection of unhappiness. 

 

 

I can't say whether you wife is unhappy or not, but she is DEFINITELY projecting onto you. 

Next time this happens, I would say openly and without judgment, "I am feeling X, Y, Z (and be honest)" but then add, " But is there something specific you want to talk about?"  And see where that leads. 

If she responds with one of the statements she has previously made, "Are you sure?" type questions, you're gonna need to cut the BS and be direct with something like, "I feel like you aren't trusting my responses and this is leading us down a negative path.  So I'm asking you if there's something specific on your mind or something you've been struggling with that you want to discuss?" 

I can tell you this much.  What your wife is doing and how she is approaching this is completely unfair to you and setting you up to be the "bad guy".  She isn't taking your responses at face value and that could mean multiple things including, lack of trust in you, depression or insecurity in her, projecting her own feelings onto you, or just fear.  But you two need to have an honest and open conversation about this, instead of dancing around it.  

If you continue to fight, you need to pay attention to what the CORE of each fight is.   Personally, I see a thread of her feeling anxious and unstable in the relationship.  Is that possible and why might that be?  You don't mention specific in these bad fights, but you should pay attention to what you perceive as the main thread in them.  It could, as I perceive, her feelings of insecurity, but maybe it's something else.  By skirting around the root of why she feels the need to not take your responses at face value, this will only lead to resentment and the chipping away of your marriage. 

Stop being "polite" and start being REAL with each other.  The truth always comes out.  Whether it's through sheer honesty, a mistake that gets discovered or someone reaching a breaking point.   I can tell you that the best and least painful way is always the most direct- sheer honesty.  Honest and painfully direct conversations aren't always fun, but they are far superior to learning someone cheated, someone just reaching a breaking point and walking out, or someone doing something stupid out of spite.   That's where your relationship is headed if you don't deal with this head-on and right now. 

OP, I won't get into your phone habits.  Not only is that clouding the primary issue- that you and your husband believe VERY different things about what it means to be a parent- but also because I try not to judge different parenting styles.  I don't know that there's a right or wrong, and I also think when your child is younger than three, it can get very boring watching a baby day in and day out with no reprieve. 

So, let's focus on the main issue.  Your husband and you have different versions of parenting.   The biggest concern here is the fact that he's treating you like a baby breeder and nanny to his child, rather than the mother of his child that he is also the father of. 

I've seen this before, men who SAY they want kids but then expect the woman to do everything.  I think this can happen for a variety of reasons.  

1. You have different expectations of parenting to begin with 

2. Some men can get resentful of how much focus goes onto attention goes to the baby in the first couple years.  Often what it seen in these cases is a lashing out of either the man withdrawing himself or lashing out at his wife- your husband is doing both. 

3.  He wanted a baby without wanting to be father (NOTE_ this can happen to women as well, but for the purposes of your circumstance, I'm going to focus on your husband).  Some people like the IDEA of a baby more than the reality of a baby itself.  The IDEA is that People want legacy, people want someone to care for them in their older age, some people use children as a status symbol or a life goal they wanted/need/felt compelled to check off, some people don't really want kids but go along with it since their spouse wants it, and the list goes on, but what it boils down to is societal expectation and feeling you should want certain prescribed things.  THE REALITY-  Babies are hard work.  Having a baby almost always impacts the marriage one way or another, Most moments with little children are fairly mundane and monotonous, focus goes squarely onto the baby for the next few years, having a baby is HARD. WORK.  A lot of people want the title of parent, without really considering all that means.  Part of what that means is sacrificing things you want to do, me time, fun time, adult things, etc- in favor of watching/taking care of the baby. 

I suggest you get into marital counseling ASAP.  Your husband is treating both you and your baby horribly and if you don't do something now, you will only get resentful and you will drift further apart. 

If you do nothing, you're on a way one train to Divorce-ville. 

My biggest question for you is why you wouldn't even consider giving Ireland a try?   After all, he lived in Canada for nine years with you, yet you wouldn't even try living in Ireland with him? 

I ask this not be rude, but I think you have to answer this question for real.   It's not just about your mom or uprooting your life, because he was only asking you to TRY, not to move there permanently.  I'm wondering if you didn't want to try because you wanted an easy explanation for your marriage to end and this was your simplest "out". 

You bring up his issues in a very negative light.  In your words  "I felt like a caretaker more than a partner. I don't think I could cope with that stress for the rest of my life. And we don't even have kids yet! What will life be like if my partner has severe anxiety and I have kids to raise".  

Even if he were still in Canada with you, these are your real feelings.  

Whether you stay married or not, whether you end up in another marriage or not, I want to give you some advice before having kids.  If you think you are going to be married to someone (or co-parent with someone) that is NEVER going to have any issues, problems, bad days, bad moods, ongoing disagreements with or anything that can make raising kids harder like a possible ongoing illness, then I think you should think twice about having kids in general.  It's really hard being a parent, even with the best and most supportive of partners.   I'm also curious why you refer to it as " I have kids to raise." not "we". If you have kids, you both have to take care of them no matter what- good days, bad days, you are fighting with your spouse, one of you is battling something, etc. What if something happens to your spouse you can't predict?  And you never know what you'll get with your kids, either.   What if you child is diagnosed with a severe mental illness or a disability?  That can be very challenging as well (I have both in my family).  I say this so that you can think about expectations with a kid, if you had this hard a struggle dealing with a partner with some mild, fairly common problems. 

In terms of feeling regret- everything you wrote, to me, doesn't suggest regret.  I think what you are feeling is guilt.  I think separating is what you want and I think it is what is best for you both.   You don't want to compromise in any area of your life.  That's not necessarily a negative thing to want what you want, but it does mean there's no wiggle room here.  If you're each happier in your own homes, that's it.  He tried living in Canada and it didn't work and you are unwilling to try Ireland, so that's that.  The End.  Don't drag this out.  My advice is to get a divorce as soon as possible, so you can both move on with your lives.   And I suggest for the future, finding someone that lives in and loves Canada as much as you do. 

I'm going to approach this from a bit of a different place than others have. 

I actually suggest that you do NOT "bury this".  Wanting to reconnect with someone from our past doesn't always mean it's because we want to jump into bed with someone or ditch our spouse to be with them.  You could potentially be throwing out a personal journey that could be important to your development.   You flat out say you have no interest in leaving your current wife, so I think there is something here worth exploring as your desire to reconnect with this old ex. 

People may reach out to exes for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes people assume it's cause you want to get it on with them, which is kinda of assuming the worst of someone and not always true. Sometimes people reach out to make amends for past mistakes, to heal trauma, to apologize, or even just to reconnect as friends.  I don't think it's playing with "fire" unless that's your intention going in or you think yourself unable to control yourself. I think as long as those two things are clear, comfortable and in your control, then my humble opinion is, one shouldn't deny themselves an opportunity for growth simply because others think you should never talk to an ex or to diminish every encounter as "it MUST be a sexual thing." 

I think you should think about why this strong desire has arisen in you.  Are you unhappy with perhaps some aspect of your marriage?   You say you would never leave your wife, and even if it's true- could there be something that this other person represents something you don't feel is being fulfilled in your marriage?  Or maybe it's NOTHING to do with your marriage at all, but about YOU. 

You say you broke up due to your own personal issues.  Perhaps some part of you wishes to atone for that.  You could do that, simply by reaching out via email and saying you regret how you handled the past.  Maybe it's simply because you would like her in your life as a friend.  Everyone feels differently about this, for me personally, my opinion is that you should be able to trust your partner having friends of the opposite gender.  They may provide meaning/support to your partner's life that they need.  You should want your partner to have support and platonic love from other sources than you. (and if you don't, you likely have insecurity/control issues and view your spouse as property, which isn't healthy)  If you don't trust your partner, why are you even with them?  Because no one can ever be 100% sure their partner isn't cheating on them, unless you are with them 24/7- you either trust them or you don't.  And again, if your assumption about them is they will instantly hop into bed with someone else, why are you even with them?  if you don't trust that even if someone is flirting with them or even suggesting more, that they would confidently say NO, then again why are you with them? 

But back to you, if you think you may want to be friends with this woman, I see nothing wrong in offering her friendly support.  HOWEVER, if you are viewing this as you want to see if there is still "something there", then I do NOT recommend meeting with her or offering what you cannot give.  BUT if this IS the case or you find yourself going there, ask yourself WHY.  This is important.   There could be something you are in denial about or internally struggling with that you just haven't identified.  It may not even be about HER Per se, perhaps it could be wanting to be young again.  Maybe, it's there is something you had personally as a kid, some aspect of yourself that you wish to reconnect with.   Or possibly it's that you miss having a friendly connection that someone that meant a lot to you.   As long as boundaries as clear, then I see no reason why you shouldn't have that friendship. 

I can't tell you the reasons or your feelings.  BUT- I personally do not think it wise to just "forget about it", as I do not think that's a healthy choice for you.   I think it's important to explore our motivations and desires as a way to find insight into ourselves and look for growth opportunities.  Assuming this is just a desire for an affair would be a disservice to you, your potential growth and frankly to your wife if there's something you do feel your marriage may need to survive and thrive.  

Remember, issues we don't resolve only come back and can lead to worse mistakes if we don't address them head-on the first time.   I think it's overall positive to figure out WHY you've been feeling this way.  I disagree with denying your own thoughts and feelings for the comfort of others, that's just living a lie and will eventually come to a head anyway. You should be in a marriage and committed to your spouse because you WANT to be, not because you feel like you "have to". That isn't healthy for anyone in the long run. 

GOOD LUCK. 

6 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

And it sounds as though you have been hiding behind the excuse that you made a vow, so you can't leave. 

I don't mean to make light of the decision to end a marriage. However, it sounds like you have tried and it's just not working and you are deeply unhappy. You can leave when you want. You aren't bound by anything to stay there forever. It's up to you to do the difficult work of actually walking away, which is maybe what is really holding you back. It's "easier" to enterain fantasies than it is to deal with reality. 

OP, please re-read this first sentence over and over again. 

Some people get trapped in this idea what you HAVE TO stay in a marriage "just because".  Everyone has their own version of "just because", whether it's " I made vows" or "we have kids" or " I never saw myself divorced", " I'm afraid to be alone", "we had a big party"- and the list goes on and on. 

Something I learned the hard way- People are going to judge you in life, no matter what you do and no one lives your life but you.  

Some people think that if your marriage didn't work, it's because someone "failed" or "didn't try hard enough" and I'm here to tell you, that's simply not true.  If one person has one foot out the door of the marriage ( and that doesn't mean leaving per se, it's just means the have no interest in trying, changing or improving), one person cannot do all the work or "saving" on their own.  One person can't hold together a whole marriage by themselves- trust me, I've tried.   

I'm gonna hit you with some truth no one likes to talk about or admit- EVERY SINGLE RELATIONSHIP ENDS.  Every single one.   Someone leaves or someone dies.   That's the cold hard facts.  No relationship is "forever".  You are never obligated to stay with someone.  Every single day is a choice. Every day you choose to stay with your partner is a choice.  .  If someone is being complacent or thinks they that can just treat you badly, cause you "have to stay", then THEY are really the ones breaking the vows and just assuming " they have you" cause you said words on ONE DAY of your lives together. 

Words are meaningless without actions to back them up.   Marriage is hard.  Marriage over the long term requires effort, introspection, forgiveness, growth and change.  If you have one person who is unwilling or unable to take those steps with you, you aren't going to work in the long term. 

You and your wife aren't compatible.   She wants to bottle up emotions, you want to express them.  She wants to hide from your problems, while you want to confront them head on.  She wants to try to control your feelings and thoughts by labeling Melissa while you want to seek change.

You views on conflict resolution, growth and change aren't compatible.  Something's gotta give, and without change, this situation will come to a breaking point one way or the other. 

On 12/2/2022 at 9:48 AM, OldSoulPH said:

Thank you for your honesty, I appreciate it.  Much of what you said here is exactly what I keep telling myself, and will most likely seek professional help to work through it.  Part of the issue is that Kate refuses marriage counseling and thinks she is never wrong.  Everything is always my fault (goes back to before Melissa was in the picture).

Kate also recently made the comment that Melissa is morally corrupt, something she never once mentioned in the past 6 years. I haven’t figured out if that is really the truth (as we all have made mistakes throughout life) or if it is just Kate’s angry talk.  Most likely a little of both.  Kate and I usually can’t talk about Melissa without getting into an argument.

Again, thank you for your honesty.

Taking Melissa completely out of the equation, because she's not really the problem here.  

Your marriage is not in good shape.    A marriage in which one party cannot ever admit they are wrong or take responsibility for their actions, is a marriage that is doomed to fail.  Because this requires ONE person to shoulder every issue themselves, which isn't a real partnership.  So either that person reaches a breaking point and leaves or else takes it, but grows resentful and unhappy and often ends up in an affair. 

Your wife has some severe problems if she's going to start quantifying someone else as "morally corrupt" that is a friend of hers.  Pretty ballsy for someone who can't even be honest with her own husband. 

The problem is your wife doesn't know how to share her real feelings about anything, which is incredibly unhealthy for you both.  Your wife isn't stupid, she is likely aware you and Melissa are crushing on each other, but instead of discussing it openly and honestly, she is treating you like a parent who is scolding their child and even telling you what to think about Melissa.  And she's not saying the right things.   If I noticed my husband getting emotionally invested in someone else- I'd want to know what was not working in our marriage, not start calling other people "evil" as a deflection.

I think you have no choice but to have a serious and HONEST conversation with your wife.  Expect it to be ugly.  IMHO, you should tell her that you need to seek marriage counseling.  If she won't do that, then you need to just lay all your cards on the table.  " I really want to work on your marriage.  Several issues continue to arise that make me fear for the future of our relationship. We need to be able to discuss our feelings openly and honestly.  I feel it would be best to do this together with a third, unbiased party.   I really want you to work on it with me.  But if you will not, then I need to seek individual counseling. But I will not stay stuck in the loop that we are currently in." 

And she what she says.  If she unwilling to budge at all, then you might need to start to consider whether you want this marriage to continue.   Nothing will get better by her burying her head in the sand and calling others names.  

Sounds like the biggest issue is that you and your wife have some fundamental disagreements. 

You don't agree on what constitutes cheating. 

You don't agree on what you should and shouldn't communicate about. 

You don't agree on what marriage should be.  

You both seem to want to "keep score".    You shouldn't hide anything from each other, but neither should you feel like there are things you can't discuss.   You have deep communication issues.   

You can certainly attempt counseling if you want try and salvage this.  However, the first thing you need to do (because counseling won't work if you just have so many basic differences) is to sit down with each other and talk openly and honestly.  You disagree on just a lot of basic principles, which if you cannot get on the same page on, I don't see how your marriage is going to work in the long run.   Talking to a third party is only helpful if you can agree that you want the same type of marriage.  A marriage with the same expectations, boundaries, openness in communication and the ability to move on and forgive and TRUST each other.  Neither one of you trusts the other.  But you have each given reason for that. 

You might just have too many basic incompatibilities.  If I may, and this is just MHO, perhaps you two don't really want to be together but feel like you "should be" or "need to be" for some reason, but that reason isn't just because you love each other and want to be together.   Maybe it's because of the kids?  Maybe it's just because of complacency, you've been together so long?  Maybe it's fear of being alone?  I don't know.  But I really urge you to think about, with all the problems and basic incompatibility you have, what keeps you both from holding onto this relationship?  Because from what I read, you are both displaying behaviors of people who deep down, want out of it and are subconsciously sabotaging it.  

2 hours ago, sweetlady said:

My dad, stepmum moved away now. I am happy not to see her.

The issue is I cannot avoid her forever and while it's like peace no feeling of being on edge.

I will have my baby soon and not sure I will want her to visit.

She hasn't even congratulated me so really why should I Iet her see my baby. We wasn't best buddies but was civil for dads sake. She seems to have gone funny again maybe because her own son stopped talking to her and won't let her see her grandkids. It's my fault or my son fault we have a great relationships with my dad.

So I feel totally done now. 

I will have to visit my dad in their new home but it's probably be a hi and I won't talk much to her.

She is very nosey and half the time if I feel she digging to much into my personal business I ignore her.

She has been in my life since a child always jealous of me she wanted a girl she got my step brother and 2 half brothers.

There's so much more why I can't stand her.

I am surprised she didn't say congratulations the only thing when we found out what we were having she seemed happy laughing. She probably was like didn't want me to have a girl. In a way glad I am having a boy again she so wicked my baby girl will not be going through what I been through.

I just feel okay now but my anxiety bad already about pregnancy and have just put it at the back of my head.

But now like thinking what will happen with baby born. I will have to come up with an excuse why my dad, her can't visit. I don't mind my dad or my own mum. She will drive me crazy.

I suppose I will have to cross that bridge when it comes to it. 

Just speak to my dad and brothers. I can't deal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they moved away, then you don't have to see her regularly and as you say you are happy about that. 

No problem. 

You can't control what she wants, thinks, or feels.   You should stop trying to police that.  Just as you can dislike her, she is allowed her own feelings about you.  But if she asks about you and is curious about your life, I don't know that she dislikes you as much as you may think.  It sounds like you dislike her more than she dislikes you.  She is your stepmom, of course she wants to know about your life.  It's not some stranger who barely knows you, "digging" for personal info.  Maybe she doesn't understand why you don't like her, if she's trying to be as good as she can be for you.  NOTE: Good as she can be isn't the same as what you want/expect.  Is it possible you just aren't over your parent's divorce and you are taking resentment out on her?  Perhaps you hoped your parents would be together with their grandchild and that is what is stirring all these negative feels in you? 

Please remember- Your feelings aren't your stepmom's responsibility.  

 It sounds like you are doing a lot of "keeping score" where she is concerned, " She didn't do this, so I won't do that." The problem with this mentality is that no one is perfect and if you are looking for people to always meet your unspoken expectations of them, no one will ever live up to that, and that's actually pretty unfair of you.  NO ONE has to be as excited about your baby as you are.  It's unrealistic to think that everyone will be or should be.  As long as you are happy, then who cares what she or anyone else thinks?  Be happy and leave it at that.  You're going to deal with lots of people who won't care at ALL about your baby.  

You already have a plan- be polite and civil.  What's the problem? Do you feel incapable of doing that occasionally?  You are assuming a lot about her private thoughts, feelings and intentions.  That's being a bit unkind and judgmental.   Parent and child relationships can be complicated and don't always go as planned.  So I caution you against speaking about/judging- her relationship with her own son.  Your relationship with your own child may not always go as smoothly as you planned.  

I think you are making this into a much bigger deal that is really is in reality.  After all, it's not like your Dad and she come over for dinner every Tuesday.  Is it really that big a deal to you to have to "be civil" with her a few times a year?  Most families have a least one person that they aren't crazy about and just limit their contact with and do the "be civil" dance with. 

For your own mental health, I really think you need to focus on yourself and your baby and stop putting yourself in your stepmom's skin, and worry about what's in front of you, not possible what ifs that don't even exist yet.  If you can't get past this, it might be advisable to seek professional counseling, because this seems more rooted in your personal feelings and long term resentments than in a present issue. 

No matter what you do, you shouldn't build up and hold onto all this resentment and anger that isn't healthy for you. 

I'm not really fully understanding what the issue is. 

You don't like her because she asks you questions?  She's your stepmom.  She's likely just trying to take an interest in your life.  Would you prefer a stepparent that ignores you?

You mention a physical fight, but not any details.   So it's hard to know what to say about that.  Physical fights are of course regrettable and upsetting.  But if you were also participating in it, you would be as equally to blame as her, since you are also an adult.  Have you apologized to her for your own role in that? 

All that being said, you're a fully grown adult.  So, your choice is not to see her and stop complaining about her.  If you're not seeing her, then what's there to complain about? No one's forcing you to see her or like her.  Cut her out of your life and stop complaining about her. 

YOU make her present in your life by assigning her importance and wasting your time thinking about, worrying about, and complaining about her.  That's your choice.  Make a choice not to do those things and focus on your child on the way. 

IMVHO, I think you should also learn to exercise forgiveness and learn to let things go.  You will need that as a parent.  

I am glad you are in therapy, and I think that will be beneficial for you no matter what.  

As far as your wife goes, I have a few thoughts.   I already know not everyone will agree with this, and that's fine.  This is only my opinion based on my own personal experience/perspective of living in a family with alcoholics/people who made bad decisions when intoxicated. 

You admit your own culpability and that is admirable.  You are seeking help, which is also admirable.  You've stated these problems have been ongoing for years, so this can't be a surprise to her.  Some people get validation from feeling "needed" or having a savior complex, except sometimes it doesn't pan out how they want and that leaves them the choice to walk away or walk away and do some version of a "Martyrdom role"- Ie. "I gave up who I was for you", " I gave you the best years of my life," etc.   She always had a choice to stay with you.   And it's fine and 100% her choice if she now cannot do it anymore, however, it is wrong of her to guilt you on her way out the door.   As it is her choice to leave, it was also her choice to stay (14 YEARS is a CHOICE) and she needs to accept her own responsibility in that part of it.  She never "had to" stay with you at any point in your relationship.  No one can make you "give up" who you are.  So please do not accept blame for that.  You have enough things to accept responsibility for, but that is NOT one of them.  She's an adult and she needs to accept responsibility for her own decisions, as well.  If her attitude is, " Well, I stayed with you this many years despite this, this, and this"- then you should really rethink if you do in fact want to be married to someone like this.  Someone who "keeps score" and blames you for perhaps their own bad decisions/indecision/mistakes. People always have a choice to leave, every single day, and if they don't, then there is something that they are getting out of that relationship, too- remember that. 

She cannot say if it will or won't work out, because how could she possibly know that at this stage?  Neither of you does, if you're being honest with each other.  

IMVHO, even if someone helped you or was there for you during a difficult time, that doesn't mean that they can or even SHOULD stay with you forever.   Again, in my own experience with alcoholism ( And I know you didn't state you were an alcoholic per se but it still applies), I will share something very personal.  I had a sibling who relied on his wife to deal with it.  She hated it, yet felt she should be there for him.  She resented it though, and while her support was good in one way, but in another it became a crutch for him because he felt like he always "had her" no matter what and so never really felt like he needed to get serious help.  They were also childhood sweethearts, and part of it was fear on both their parts- For her, fear of being judged for not being the wife who "stuck with him during the hard times" and For him, fear of never finding someone "understanding again", so they stuck it out- but the relationship wasn't actually healthy for either of them.   Well, eventually, she couldn't take it anymore and filed for divorce.   He joined AA.   After spending time recovering, and he took it more seriously since he didn't have a "wife crutch" (before anyone flames me, NO- I AM NOT SAYING it was his wife's FAULT that he didn't get help, I'm blaming his own COMPLACENCY and his thinking she would never leave- HE ALONE IS AT FAULT for not seeking help before he did) Eventually, he met another recovered alcoholic who was capable of having more empathy and patience and didn't resent his struggle with this illness.  (Again, not BLAMING his wife, saying they were incompatible, and she wasn't honest about not being able handle it and her resentment about it for years. ).  They got married and have been happy ever since.  He's been clean and sober for 18 years!  His ex wife married someone who didn't have this struggle and she is also much happier now.  

My point is, a change might not necessarily be a BAD thing.  For many people who struggle with loss of control with alcohol, there's comfort in the "familiar" but sometimes it is this very familiarity that prevents them from truly confronting the real issue and moving forward.  

I want you to do something for me, OP.   Picture going thru a divorce.  What would that look like?  Confront that fear.  Remember that you were a whole person before you met her, and will be a whole person without her, if you do end up divorcing.  Don't let fear stifle your journey of becoming a better person.  Forgive yourself.  Not one person in this world is perfect, including your wife.  And you're seeking help, so you are taking action to change.  That is something to be proud of!  Take that little victory.   Divorce doesn't have to be an abyss.  It can, in fact, be the healthiest choice for everyone. We can't change the past.  All we do when we learn better, is to do better. 

Attend therapy without any preconceived notions.  Don't do it to "get your wife back".  Do it for yourself, as it sounds like this is long term issues that have needed resolving.  No one will ever be able to fix these for you, but you.  

My sincerest wishes of luck to you.   You can do this. 

19 hours ago, Chiz said:

 

This. 
 

Deep down, I had some reservations about our relationship because his lack of intimacy with other people but I figured, hey, we could grow together because I also had things to work on. Wishful thinking.

I think it’s bothering me that I keep coming back to the idea that he was or still is getting way too much enjoyment from the drama. 
 

Though I’m so close to wanting to walk away from everything, he is still talking about a future. He wants a house. He is still working a second job and putting money in the account for it. He is waiting for me to give the go ahead for marriage counseling. He’s been more attentive than before. It’s mixing me up. 

 

 

If there's anything I've learned in relationships, it's to trust your own judgments and intuition.  They are often correct.  We should trust our spidey senses. 

You hit the nail on the head OP.  He IS enjoying it WAY too much.  I find it particularly concerning that he was gaslighting you so much and taking other people's side over yours.  It would be an easier scenario if he just had a simple crush that he could get over and re-devote himself to you. 

However, I think this is much more to do with HIM and his desire to "expand", "take risks", "try new things"- whatever you want to call it.  And he's viewing you as the "authority figure" that he has to "fool" and the only reason to do this to your spouse is because you KNOW what you are doing is wrong or they would not approve. 

Let me save you years of trouble and heartache by telling you something I WISH someone had told me about his "promises" - DONT.  BUY.  THEM.  I feel for you, cause I went thru a very similar situation with my first husband- where he kept wanting to do things without me, go out without me, make new "friends"- which were always women- without me.  Then gaslight me and call me jealous. I'd get mad, then he'd  do just enough to "win me back" but then it just got worse.  It turned into pretending he wasn't married, taking off his ring, going online to meet women, telling everyone how horrible I was, then when I would ask for a divorce since I found out about these things- he'd cry and try to "win me back" with promises. I foolishly bought it because I wanted to believe I could make it work if I "tried hard enough".   This went on for FAR too long before I finally pulled the plug. 

Always remember someone's initial reaction, as it is usually the most honest one- before someone has time to think, to lie, to manipulate, to protect themselves or cover their tracks.  His initial reaction was to gaslight you, minimize your pain, do what he wanted anyway, take the OW's mother's side ? (that one is SUPER weird), and generally treat you awfully. 

What he has you in right now is a narcissistic abuse cycle- manipulate, blame, then when he's done JUST enough to possibly lose you- love bomb you and make large emotionally manipulative promises (A House, extra attention, saving more for the "future") 

He's not really giving you promises of changed behavior, but rather trying to put band aids on a breaking dam. 

Counseling is a great tool.  But it's important to remember- it's just a TOOL, not a magic wand to fix everything.   First of all, he'll have to be HONEST in counseling for it to make ANY sort of impact and I'm not sure he will be.  But mostly, counseling can't change what someone deeply wants.  And if what YOU deeply want (to continue your marriage and your husband to stop seeking attention elsewhere) and what HE deeply wants (to explore his options and continue to seek validation from others) is so incompatible, counseling won't change that.   I'm not saying don't try, but do go in with realistic expectations.  Counseling only works if people can first ADMIT the real problem and if the person WANTS to change.   I'm just not sure your husband wants to do EITHER.  

Remember- when push comes to shove, people do what they WANT to do.   I highly advise you to go to individual counseling first to determine what is best for YOU before couple counseling with a husband who's been behaving as yours has. 

My heart is with you and I truly wish you all the best. 

RED

4 hours ago, HLDrago said:

 

 He is bored.  He's a newlywed.  A NEW-LY-WED.   He doesn't have feelings for you, he wants a piece of tail, then go back to his real family.  And when the wife gets upset, to call you the "crazy girl that made me do it".  And imagine how great he'll be to you if this is found out and he loses his job- it's unethical for doctor to flirt/be suggestive to patients.  Depending on where he works, he could even lose his license to practice medicine. 

You want to feel good about yourself.  You want to believe you love him.  What you have isn't love, it's infatuation.  You are imagining him to be someone he isn't. This man is NOT Prince Charming. 

I know rom-coms often make it seem like a "fun" scenario to be caught between two people.  The reality is a lot more ugly with a lot more people getting hurt and lives getting damaged.   And that's without adding anything really ugly into the mix like a restraining order, the wife stalking you, the wife finding out and telling your husband, your husband divorcing you, your kids hating you, and lots of other "fun" things that can happen here. 

NO.  You cannot be his friend. You aren't friends, you just want to cheat on your spouses together.  That's not a friendship, that's a booty call.  There's ONE way you can be together- Tell you husband you're divorcing him because you want to see other people and tell this man that you want him to divorce his brand new wife so the two of you can be together and deal with the massive fallout.  But I'm betting he will just run for the hills and find a new woman to use as his toy.   Great man that he is. 

OP, I hope for both your family's sake that you WAKE UP.   If you don't love your husband anymore, then get divorced and find someone single to date. 

11 hours ago, Tinydance said:

Well the girl is 23 so she's old enough to know what she's actually doing. But you're right she sounds really immature.

Well, she can be immature as all get out. She is not actually the problem.  HE is 33 years old and married. HE needs to set the parameters.   The problem is, he doesn't want parameters. And as you wisely added, he should always be taking his WIFE's side.  It's very telling that he is not. But that's exactly why this is about a much deeper problem than this one specific girl.   He got together with his wife very young and she was first friend/lover rolled into one.   Now that some time has gone by, he wants more experiences with more people.  Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, except for the fact that he seems to want more romantic experiences, not just friendship- and also appears to be deriving joy from deceiving her and by doing things that he knows he shouldn't be doing.   Then following up all that charming behavior by gaslighting her and treating her with contempt. 

It appears there is a deep desire in him to have a life separate from his wife, which she did not sign up for.  But this happens all the time in marriages- people grow and change, but not always for the better and not always in the same direction.  If what he really wants is an independent life, they will both just be miserable staying in this marriage.  

People don't stop making friends with people- including people of the opposite sex just because they get married. 

Every couple is different just like every person is different.  My husband and I have zero problems having friends of the opposite sex because we completely trust each other.  Besides, you don't need to have opposite gender friends in order to cheat. 

I personally think its awesome when a man is just friends with a woman.  To me, it shows he is evolved and views women as more than just sexual objects.   And as a wife you get the benefit of that female friend helping him pick out gifts/ plans things for you.  

Some couples don't want their spouse having ANY opposite gender friends.  I personally don't find this realistic as the odds of them being with friends with someone at work is extremely high.   Hanging out alone is a personal choice.  But IMHO, if you can't trust your spouse to not be able to spend a little time with another person without sleeping with them, why are you even with them?

From what you've said, I'm not seeing any flashing red lights of him showing romantic interest in you. 

^ Now that I've said that- what was your reaction to that last sentence?  If you were disappointed, then perhaps it's the other way around, and you are developing feelings for him.  If you are relieved, then I see no reason you can't keep continuing this friendship. 

The only reason to stop an opposite gender friendship is if someone crosses a line that you (or that you know your spouse would be) are uncomfortable with.  

On 9/10/2022 at 2:36 AM, Chiz said:

He never had friends before and I was his first girlfriend. Our marriage was very close and great until he met this girl. Now he is talking about branching out and making friends where he never desired to before. 

 

^THIS is the root of your issue.  

This girl is smoke.  The catalyst for this change was HIM wanting to seek validation/relationships/experiences outside of his relationship with you. He apologized yet he still VERY clearly has a desire to do things independent from you.  

He's going to want to keep "branching out"- how are you going to handle that?  Especially if his instinct is to treat you like a parent he's trying to sneak away from? 

Sometimes people grow apart.  There's a real danger in marrying your first relationship partner for these reasons.  

Some general advice I like to give- Put more credence people's actions/repeated words- more than their apologies, especially if the timing of the apology is LONG after you expressed concern.    Apologies LONG after the complaint says more about the other person's guilt or self preservation than caring about YOU.  Apologies in care of YOU should happen at your first conversation/complaint and without any prodding.

13 hours ago, Chiz said:

Hi all, 

My husband and I are going to work on our marriage. I will officially be starting counseling on my own tomorrow because I have been so angry and depressed for so long that I think that I finally need to talk to someone. This is the first time that I have ever done this, so I have a lot of anxiety. 
 

Since my post, my husband has deleted the person’s number and has not mentioned her since. He maintains that nothing physically happened between them but has finally apologized for the emotional pain that he has put me through. For right now, I’m going to take things one day at a time and see if our relationship is still worth it. 

I'm glad you are getting counseling, which will be good for you no matter what. 

You mentioned that he never had friends before you and you were his first GF.  That is incredibly strange.  He's put a lot into you and never had time to learn what he wanted or even how to be a person in a relationship.  I'm not excusing his behavior, but just explaining his co-dependency and why he may now be "rebelling" so to speak. 

The real problem here is because it lies with him, even if he never speaks to this particular woman again-the issue is he wants to be free of you and have experiences apart from you.  For whatever reason, he wants more than you.  He wants to rebel, he wants to see what else is out there since he never "explored" and he wants to push boundaries and limits.  This seems a deep seeded issue in HIM.  So unless he can really work on this, he'll just keep moving on to the next woman and just lie about it the next time.  IMHO, I don't know if you can "overcome" this because you can't rewrite history of being his first everything.  I think the innate problem is that.  He's wants to grow apart from you.  Not sure that can be "fixed".  And maybe, perhaps, you are also hanging onto what you were or what you want to be, and not what you actually ARE together. 

Personally, I just divorce him.  He doesn't seem to love or respect you.  I wouldn't believe his "apology".   Maybe the relationship has run its course and it's time to move forward separately. 

20 hours ago, jul-els said:

You’ve crossed a boundary that can’t be taken back unless the two of you agree to forget about your dalliance and never speak of it again. Otherwise this is going to blow up. 

OP- THIS ^^^^^^^  This is the ONLY way you can just be friends again.  You both say it was a mistake and we totally forget it and put it forever behind us. 

Not sure she can do that, though- if she's going to get jealous every time you interact with a woman that isn't her. 

Not sure you can do that if you still have feelings for her. 

Also, you cannot ever hang out alone ever again.  Not sure either of you can do that. 

You need to be realistic about these things.  Having sex when you aren't free can irrevocably damage friendships.  You have to accept that if you both cannot do the above, then you might have just imploded your friendship.  But then of course if you aren't suddenly speaking anymore, your spouses may figure things out anyway.   Honestly, if you BOTH can't commit to the first sentence, then your only other way out of this is telling your spouses the truth and accepting the fallout.  You better hope she is willing.  Because honestly, she could easily get mad at you if you don't want to pursue/commit to her romantically and tell everyone anyway.  The only other thing is to both end your marriages and commit to each other, but you said you don't want that.  No matter what happens, buckle in- it's gonna be a bumpy resolution. 

OP, I have some very direct questions for you that you need to ask yourself. 

First, let me just say that I think no matter what happens with Chloe or anyone else, you should divorce your wife since you clearly aren't in love with her.  Even when Chloe wasn't around, you still met another woman for dinner.  Please let your wife go so she can find someone that really loves her passionately. 

Now, onto my questions. 

1. Do you love Chloe enough to point blank ask her to leave her husband and marry you?  If not, why not?   If you think she'd say no, then why?

2. Assuming you did choose to be with Chloe, do you feel you could trust her?  Her current husband is aware and seemingly comfortable with the idea of her normally kissing other men.   And let's be realistic, she's likely done more at least occasionally.  If she was drunk, she might not even remember.  Do you want to be married to someone like that?  Could YOU handle it, as her current husband does? 

^ That all being said, WHY is her husband so "okay" with it?  And so okay with her going on vacay with another man?  I strongly suspect he is having an affair of his own. 

3. What, in an ideal world, do you WANT to happen?  Really think about this. 

You need to make some real decisions, and fast.   If you don't, this will all eventually blow up in your face. 

If Chloe is the love of your life and you can't live without each other- then divorce your spouses and marry each other.   Happens every day.  My big question is- why haven't either of you even considered that?  Granted, I don't personally think that's the best beginning, but at least you'd both be being honest and freeing spouses you don't love. 

If you think this is just a game for her, and she's committed to staying with her husband, then you need to tell her you're done- fully and permanently and she cannot be mad about you moving on, whatever that looks like.  

COMMIT or get off the pot! 

Either rip off the band-aid and come clean, or else stop the relationship immediately and permanently.   Neither will be pretty or fun, but both are better than living a lie and betraying other people. 

Time to make a decision and stick with it. 

It is always best not to involve yourself in the marriage of others.  You never see all the ways this could have consequences for you.  

You're assuming that everyone who has been cheated on wants to know.  That's not true. 

You're assuming that someone who is told will thank the messenger- Also usually not true. 

Telling her husband won't change what happened.  You also don't know their marriage, maybe they have an open relationship. Maybe's he cheated on her in the past.  Maybe he's abusive or violent. 

Another great reason NOT to tell her husband is for your own safety.  I know people that have told the unsuspecting partner about an affair.   No one that I know that has done this has had ANY good come from it.  Things that have happened; 1. They got harassed by the person they told, that person wanting endless details. 2. They got stalked by the person they told wondering how you're involved in it all. 3. They got threatened by the person they told who didn't believe them.  4. They got injured by the man they told that didn't believe them. 5. They got involved in lawsuits. 

And those are just some examples.  You could very well end up hurting your life much more than hers. 

It's not worth it.  Seeking revenge on her won't change what happened and you don't really know these people. 

The best "revenge" is living your life well. 

Honestly, she sounds like an F girl to me. 

The problem with people like that, is that you never really know where you stand because they will never just be honest or vulnerable.   

Take it from me, as a woman who has dealt with a lot of F boys during my life.   They may genuinely like you, but for whatever reason; control, just liking the attention, wanting to keep options open, fear of commitment- they won't just be straightforward or give the relationship an honest try.  Real talk, the person I had the best emotional connection with in my entire life was/still is an F boy.  I do think he liked me, maybe even loved me- he SAID he did, but yet he would always pull back anytime we were getting 'too close" and either randomly show up with another girl, act like we weren't dating or serious, or having someone waiting in the wings any time we had or fight or just if he felt like it.   I'll always have some love for him, because I never had an emotional connection that was the same. 

HOWEVER, I couldn't deal with the back and forth. It was beyond frustrating and often felt insulting.  I needed someone consistent and who didn't string me along.  Someone who would feel the same way about me every single day, not just when it was convenient for him.   

My advice- stop wasting your time.  Find someone who is emotionally available and open to a real relationship.   I know it's not easy when your connection is really strong, but trust me when I tell you that you will save yourself loads of pain and heartbreak. 

As someone else already pointed out, your issues is really about communication. 

A phrase that's good for everyone in committed relationships to remember is this- 

I can't expect my partner to fulfill needs of mine that I don't communicate. 

You've said you trust him.  He's been clear with the beginning from you that he has close female friends.  He's told you why he has them and why they are important to him.  He has also invited you to meet them.  So far everything he has done has been totally above board.  Since you have elected not to go out with them anymore, he may very well have surmised that you wouldn't enjoy yourself. 

And truthfully, if it is an old friend that he doesn't see often, you likely wouldn't have a good time at their first reunion as they'd likely be talking about people and places you don't know.  

Neither of you has really done anything wrong.   But, you did need to communicate your feelings and needs.   You need to do this calmly and when you are both in good moods.  You will only come across as insecure if you attack him.  You really focus on yourself - your feelings and your needs. 

No one likes to hear close friends of their attacked and if you do this, all that will happen is he will get defensive and hide things from you. 

How I think is a good way to approach it-  " I'm glad you have a friend like X that you feel comfortable with and I'm glad you had a chance to see her.   I know I have expressed not wanting to go out, but since she isn't in town often and she is important to you, I would love to meet her.  Maybe we could all have dinner together?  I've also learned about myself that when I'm not invited, it makes me feel left out and not prioritized.   Next time a friend comes to town, or when you hang out with others, it would make me feel good if you would ask me if I would like to join." 

It expresses your feelings without attacking him or his female friends.  If he is the man you think he is, then he should understand and appreciate this. 

Incidentally, I am a woman with lots of close male friends.  It's not that I don't have female friends, but my male friends often don't have the same obligations that my female friends do.  I shower when I hang out with them or shave if my pits are hairy and I'm wearing a tank top.  It's just social graces, NOT because I have any romantic intentions towards any of them.  I always communication with my husband if I am hanging out with one of them alone.  He is always invited, if he chooses not to come- he trust me, because he knows I love him and would never disrespected our relationship. 

It's really just all about communication.  I feel this is just a small hiccup that you can easily overcome together.  Express yourself and set the expectations that you would like to see. 

You've got this!   All the best. 

7 hours ago, MissCanuck said:

Is he unsure, though?

Or he just isn't handling it the way you want? Again, I don't see the GM's situation (or his advice) as particularly useful here because setting boundaries with a spouse is not at all the same as setting professional boundaries in the workplace with a superior. And honestly, it's not your place to try to pilot this. 

If you don't trust you husband to be able to handle this appropriately, then something is amiss in your marriage. 

^^ THIS!  

Can I ask why you think she's even interested in your husband romantically?   Re-reading your posts, I'm not seeing evidence of that anywhere.  It sounds like she's just his friend and on friendly terms with him. If she really has crossed a line your husband is truly uncomfortable with, he could always report her to HR. (and sorry, I'm not buying the "she's harassed many other people at work but still has her job"- there's no way that's true if multiple people reported her for sexual harassment.  Most companies have a ZERO TOLERANCE sexual harassment policy. Their company would be getting lawsuits left and right if people reporting sexual harassment were fired.)   But honestly, I've been on business trips with co-workers.  It's not uncommon to share personal info. It's not uncommon to talk to co-workers you are friendly with outside of work. Sharing personal info isn't against the law or even inappropriate.  I don't really see anything she has done "wrong" here.  Your husband is always welcome to say he doesn't want to talk about personal things, and if she stops when he says that- there's no issue. 

If you don't want your husband taking a work call during your alone time, talk to your husband.  That has zero to do with her.  He's the one answering the phone. 

Perhaps she is an over-sharer.  Lonely. Disappointed in love. Has a failed marriage.  Flirts with a lot of men. So what?  That has zero to do with your marriage. Stop focusing on this woman and all you dislike about her, because it's just a deflection from the actual issue, which is your marriage. 

But the biggest question I have for you is this, that I think you really need to ask yourself.  

Why do you think your husband is interested in her?  If you don' think that, then there is no problem here.  She's his boss and his friend.  Maybe you don't like him having female friends? Maybe it triggers jealousy and insecurity in you?  But again, that's a marital issue.  She is not the problem.  It's just easier to focus your anger towards her than towards your husband or even yourself. 

The way you say "the devil never sleeps" makes it sound like you think it's inevitable that your husband is going to cheat on you or leave you.  This woman doesn't need to be his boss for him to cheat on you.  He could sleep with a complete stranger on these trips- and honestly that would be smarter than sleeping with his boss.  Why do you think him cheating on you is inevitable?  If you don't think that, then what are you so worried about?  

All you can do is talk to your husband and the issues bothering you.  Focusing on his female boss will not do either of you or your marriage any good. 

On 7/22/2022 at 12:10 PM, Charlie1984 said:

@Wiseman2

4 years, we have a great relationship. I trust him and knows hes uninterested in cheating. 

If this is true, then what's the problem?

If he's completely uninterested in cheating, she could literally be begging him to have sex with her and he would say no.   And if you trust him, then you TRUST him to say NO. 

You can dislike her as much as you want, your husband has free will.  If he's uninterested in cheating, then he won't, no matter what this woman says/does/flirts about, etc.  

Or you don't actually trust him to say no. But if that's the case, then the problem is with your husband, not with her. 

How do you "deal" with a cheater?  You break up with them.   The End.  If someone doesn't respect you enough to not cheat on you, then nothing you say post cheating is going to change their mindset or is really donna make you "feel better" about their cheating.  It's a waste of time. 

Young people care a lot about being "right", but unless you are with a like-minded individuals in the first place, you won't change most people's minds about most things, no matter how "right" you are. 

The key is finding someone with the same values as you in the first place.  And then you have to trust. 

There's never any 100% fool-proof way to know someone isn't cheating on you.  Unless you are with them 24/7.  You just have to trust that they won't.  If they aren't someone you think you can trust, don't be in a relationship with them.  If they break your trust, break up. 

16 hours ago, Greg40s said:

I guess I've never thought there is such thing as a perfect marriage. And I can't imagine there is - that feels like too much to expect. I've always known that marriages take work and there are compromises. There are good things and sometimes not so good things too but we can work on them. So I would sometimes swing from being active and feeling like maybe I can fix it to feeling like maybe this was just part of the compromise. Maybe being married to someone you get on with is a really good thing (some people don't seem to have that!). 

And so answering your question of what I have been worried about, there are two parts to that. The first is the selfish part - that I don't know how to start again. I don't know how to not have the life I have, if that makes sense. That is scary. The other part though is the big one now - I never want to hurt my wife or mess things up for my kids. My wife is a really good person and I know this will hurt her. That's what I worry about. And I know enough from reading about this over the years that I'm not the only one - there are many people who stay with their partners simply because they can't bring themselves to hurt them.

But I've done that for a long time now. I know what I want and it's not this (although I'm still terrified of ending up alone I guess so there's that buried in there too). 

There is no perfect marriage BUT there are marriages that WORK and marriages that DON'T.  Things being okay only on the surface is not a marriage that is working.  We all experiences highs and lows, sure.  But you yourself have said that you've been consistently unhappy.  That is not usual in a good marriage that is working for both parties equally. 

It does make sense.  I can tell you that confidently because I am divorced and remarried.  Getting divorced is hard, I won't lie to you.  It does take work to get things back on track.  However, if it is what is best for everyone, then it can also be one of the best things you ever do- including for your kids.  I know lots of parents who get divorced and become BETTER parents, because they can actually focus on their kids instead of their unhappiness.   But I do understand that the unknown is scary, cause I've been there.  You're hurting your wife and kids now by just going thru the motions when your heart isn't in it.  You aren't doing your wife any favors by lying to her thru omission.  Will she be upset?  Of course.  NO ONE gets thru a marriage or having children without hurting both of them at some point, because we are are human and that is life. That WILL happen whether you stay married to your wife or not.    You are hurting your wife either way.   You are hurting your kids either way, even if the damage isn't manifesting in obvious ways yet.  You said your kids are teens.  Teens aren't stupid.  They probably realize more than you think.  You are also setting an example for how they live their life.  Should they never quit a job they hate so that they don't hurt their boss's feelings?   If your kid is with someone that doesn't make them happy and you see them visibly unhappy, are you going to tell them to stay so they don't hurt the other person's feelings?   Feelings  get hurt in life sometimes.  Good people's feelings get hurt, bad people's feelings get hurt, that's called being alive.  I'm not saying don't be sensitive to others, but I am saying a person shouldn't sacrifice their own feelings, wants, and needs just so as not to "hurt" someone.  That is not in any way healthy or realistic in the pursuit of a fulfilled and happy life.  That is the example you'll be setting for your kids.  That their feelings aren't as valid as others and they should sacrifice their own feelings, wants, and needs in order to please others.  

My first husband went thru the motions and didn't want to hurt me.  It didn't help me or make me feel good.  I knew he wanted out but was miserable.  All it did was knock my self esteem to an all time low, make me feel unloved and even worse made me feel like my husband thought I was an idiot who couldn't see that he was unhappy or notice the way he'd respond to other women in ways he did not with me. 

We went thru years of that only to divorce anyway.  And I can tell you, I would have respected him more if he'd been honest with me rather than pretending to be happy when he wasn't, he wasted years of both of our lives by trying to placate me.   I'm remarried now and the difference is night and day.  My current husband is genuinely happy with me and I with him.  It's SO MUCH easier!  Anyone who tells you that marriage should be a "BIG STRUGGLE" isn't in a happy marriage.  My first marriage was, my current isn't at ALL.   Big difference between high and lows (which is normal) versus perpetually deep discontentment (which isn't in a happy marriage). 

What's so bad about being alone?  Perhaps you should examine why you'd rather be in an unhappy marriage than to be alone?   Please give your wife some credit and respect.  I'm sure she's not stupid and understands at least on some level that you aren't happy.  And since you're not really in love with her (different from loving her as a person), but you aren't in love with her, don't you think she deserves to be with someone who could be passionately in love with her? 

It feels like you are thinking of every excuse not to change your life in the ways you really want to.   I'll lay it out for you.  Your wife will be fine.  Your kids will be fine.  People get divorced every day, kids are co-parented by divorced parents every day.   Fear is only a feeling.  So, what's stopping you?  Do you not feel like you deserve happiness?  Do your feelings not matter?  Or do you not want to give up a more comfortable lifestyle? Is your happiness something you're willing to sacrifice for comfort, even though you'd be doing everyone in your family a disservice?   It's worth examining.