So I'm a try anything guy...

[shikashika]

In my opinion the people who are clueless about drugs are those who use drugs (there is no more clueless state that I can think of) and/or the ones who would encourage or condone illegal drug use or so-called "safe" illegal drug use on a forum visited by teenagers. I grew up for many years in a neighborhood notorious for drug use of all kinds so to even allude that people like me or anyone who is posting here to discourage illegal drug use is "clueless" is a bit bizarre.

 

well batya, we do differ on a lot of things, but I find it odd that you are saying people like me are clueless... when I know I've done a lot of research about the drugs I've taken.

 

In my opinion, you have just said things like "People who do drugs are clueless.. Drugs are bad. Don't do drugs" you are not giving any reason why.

 

You've said in previous posts that is 'just reasonable' not to do drugs? Why?

 

I find it bizarre that you make statements about drugs, or people that have tried drugs when you, yourself have not tried anything. Sure, have your opinion on it... but why say people that don't think the same way as you are clueless??

 

I know plenty of people who have tried drugs. They are responsible people who enjoy doing a bit of this and that once in a while. I still see people putting my friends who have tried drugs to people with serious addictions into the same cateory. You say it is not relevant to talk about alcohol, or spending problems, or gambling... well I think it is completely relevant.. Its all about looking at drug users.. and seeing a small percentage of the population who abuse something and putting everyone in that category

 

again, why specifically do you think MDMA is so bad ( the real ecstasy!) Especially as it did so many good things for people. Granted, most people take it in a different environment, but the studies that come out about MDMa and the dangers it causes are just absurd.

 

have you read about why do you think other drugs are bad and whoever takes them are clueless. I've given some interesting drug guide sites to read.. and you've just said 'people who take drugs are clueless!"

 

I have had many real life debates with people about drugs, adn those who are against it always seemt o come up with the same arguments.

 

such as

 

'drugs are bad' and never give any reason why

 

or

 

"I had a friend who died of drugs."

 

Most of them really do not know the difference between the different types of drugs. If they are going to be against it, at least know the differences between the different kinds.

 

and I do think some drugs are worse than others. I would never touch meth or heroine or crack.

 

Since this 'war on drugs' has started, there have been more problems with drugs than ever before. When drugs were made illegal, they became more and more popular. so how is this even helping this situation?

[shikashika]

oh.. and I forgot to add one more thing.

 

Batya, I don't see why because teenagers visit this site we should not talk about it.

 

There are 55 year old on this site asking for advice about divorce, which is nothing that a teenager could relate to. There are posts about transgender experiences, which I do not know enough about, nor have I been in this situation to offer any advice about.

 

There are 13 year olds asking for sex advice.. but one good thing about this site is that is open to ALL people and ALL opinions... I think it just helps everyone to be more informed!

 

 

oh here, you can download a few clips of the program ecstasy rising which was shown about 4 years ago.. very interesting..

 

 

link removed

 

some good links on that page as well!

 

here you can also find how decaure's study which became the one study that government used to tell the world how evil and bad and horrible ecstasy is when it turned out he didn't even use MDMA in his study... he used methamphetamine!!!! hows' that for credible scientific

'study'!

 

 

Here are some more interesting read on MDMA!

link removed

[justpaisley]

There have been a number of people in this thread talking about how they are too smart to get addicted. Let me say this as loudly as I can, being smart is not protection against addiction. The problem with addiction is you are addicted before you know it. You may be one of the millions of people who can use drugs with impunity. You may be one of the thousands who gets caught by them.

 

Melrich has said something very profound here. He's absolutely right - nothing keeps you from getting addicted to drugs. Addiction is one of those great equalizers. Even those who don't have addictive personalities can become addicted.

 

Again, I understand the compulsion to want to take risks, to try new things, to get out there and really experience life. Becoming a drug addict is simply NOT worth that. What else will you try just to take a risk? I hope you come to the realization that your life is worth more than a risk. God willing, one day your art WILL grace the walls of the Louvre. Becoming a coke-head will not aid that journey.

[Batya33]

You are informing teenagers that it's ok to use illegal drugs and there have been posters encouraging it as well. To me that's not informing, that's misleading.

[shikashika]

You are informing teenagers that it's ok to use illegal drugs and there have been posters encouraging it as well. To me that's not informing, that's misleading.

 

I'm informing people about the drugs out there, and giving them information on how to find out about the drugs. I don't know who on this thread is a teenager?

 

What is misleading about my posts? Where have I said anything to be untrue or where have I lied?

[Batya33]

[

I find it bizarre that you make statements about drugs, or people that have tried drugs when you, yourself have not tried anything. Sure, have your opinion on it... but why say people that don't think the same way as you are clueless??]

 

I'm sorry - are you saying I can't have opinions if I haven't tried it? I think murder is wrong and I've never tried it. I think poisons could kill me but I don't have to try them to find out. My opinions are based on research, experiences watching people use drugs, watching the effect of drugs on babies, children and adults, research, studies, etc. I don't need to cite any support because it is so overhwelmingly voluminous and understood there's no need to. To me it is a fact that illegal drugs are dangerous, not an opinion. I don't have to try something illegal myself to know that it is dangerous. On the other hand, all you can come up with are some questionable suspect web sites about illegal drug use.

 

I am really floored that you would condone illegal drug use particularly on a forum like this and not find it the least bit irresponsible.

 

Look, if you want to do illegal drugs and take those risks with your body and life go right ahead - I hope you're not in a location where you can hurt others when you do that, and I hope in real life you don't actively support others in taking illegal drugs - but otherwise, it's your life.

 

All I'm asking is that you not post in a way that seems to encourage illegal drug use. Opinions are one thing - everyone is entitled to opinions - but posting in a way that misleads others -- especially young people -- into believing that it's ok to use illegal drugs crosses the line. All I am posting is about not ingesting harmful, illegal substances - that's an entirely different situation and is consistent with what is taught in schools to these kids if not by their parents.

[shikashika]

See this is where our opinions differ.. I talk about drugs and you compare it to murder,

 

I find it somewhat offensive that you say your opinions are a fact, but if I bring up my opinion you say its just a 'questionable suspect website' I could say the same thing about your websites, and research. I doubt you have read the websites I have provided as you would see that many of the studies have been done by highly educated scientists.

 

I can't believe you think you do not need to cite any support, but then you brush off what I've said without even looking at the links I've given.

 

Actually I would like to make MDMA legal.. I would love to have others try it and experience it.

 

 

Please do not ask me not to post in a certain way. I have done nothing but give people information about drugs. They can make their own opinion regarless. I have given some links, which people may read if they wish.

 

I just think it is so sad when people, like yourself, make comments like "Idon't need to prove it.. its JUST so bad"...

 

Similarly I could as you not to post in a way which to me sounds like you have not done your research.

 

When you say things like " I hope you are not in a situation where you can hurt others'... to me that just shows your lack of knowledge about drugs such as MDMA...

 

The sad part is, is that people will probably not get exactly what they ask for. it could be a bit of MDMA, which a bunch of everything else form under the kitchen ink.

 

I really respect you as a fellow Enotaloner, I just find in this instance, you are calling things FACT, when they are just your opinion... and then telling me that some of the evidence I have given is just nonsense!

[shikashika]

ha! I'm not angry or upset! I like hearing what Batya and others have to say as well.. so I hope my tone doesn't come accross that way.

 

I enjoy a good debate and I too hope this thread doesn't get closed. I like the fact that we have so many people on here with such different opinions.. Makes for a good thread!

[shikashika]

*retreats back into shell* I guess it comes from being a crap debater and a feisty person that I can't tell the difference.

 

Hope you didn't think I was being patronising! *shame*

 

Happy debating, lol!

 

P.S...just to stay on topic...drugs are bad.

 

ha ha! I will continue debating... so like Batya i will ask you to tell me why All drugs are bad.. and how saying this is going to help or prove anything!

 

( you still want to continue in the debate?? )

[Batya33]

I am not sure where you got that from my responses. I never made generalizations about all people who use drugs - or presented any opinions about the impact of drug use on you - the only generalization I put forward is that it is irresponsible (at the minimum) to post on this forum that it is ok to use illegal drugs particularly since there are teenagers here because illegal drugs are not only illegal but too dangerous balanced against the so-called "benefits" of getting high or whatever.

 

I have heard all the arguments ad nauseum about the great artists who used drugs, attributed their artistic creations to drug use, etc. I don't agree with the theory or "link" but I don't care to go there either on this thread.

 

It's very easy to take my arguments, twist them, apply the slippery slope theory, etc but to me it's unproductive. I'm satisfied with what I've posted so that if someone reads the thread and takes it to heart there are enough posts to counterbalance the "illegal drug use is ok and can be safe" posts.

 

And yes I have had friends who are recovering drug addicts - of course with treatment they can re-join society and be responsible people. I dated one a few times and yes his past bothered and concerned me greatly and was one of several reasons I decided not to get seriously involved with him. I've dated men with drinking problems and men who used illegal drugs - thankfully that was many years ago, never again. The drugs and drinking were huge competition for my being any sort of priority in those mens' lives.

 

At this point in my life I would not associate with as friends much less date someone who used illegal drugs or got drunk often (I have one or two friends who smoke pot once every few years and I can deal with that) because to me it's boring to be around someone stoned or drunk, I don't want to be in any kind of trouble with the law by association, and it offends me morally. Been there, done that. I have been involved with helping people who abuse drugs and alcohol and would continue to do that as community service.

 

Good luck to you.

[shikashika]

Well I never mentioned anything about Artists... I'm talking about the regular guy/girl who uses certain drugs and what the drugs contain.. not how they helped me 'explore my inner self' or anything like that.

 

I still don't see why you keep brining up the fact that teenagers use this forum. This forum deals with many' mature' matters, such as pregnance, relationships, marriage, divorce, suicide etc.

I thought you were concerned about drug use in general regardless of it one is 17 or 27 or 47 years old.

 

I still see however in your threads talking about people who abuse drugs and alcohol. Why put all people who use drugs into this category?

 

I think this is what I'm trying to understand from you, as other posters in previous pages have tried to understand as well.

[Batya33]

I am particularly concerned about teenagers but am concerned about everyone.

 

Shikasika, I'm done - as I wrote above, I am satisfied that any encouragement or condoning of illegal drug use that your posts suggest are counterbalanced with my responses and I am glad you pointed out "how could I know drugs are dangerous if I've never tried them" or something like that because if that's not grasping at straws, with all due respect, I don't know what is - but at least it will reflect the questionable nature of your pro-drug arguments.

[shikashika]

I am particularly concerned about teenagers but am concerned about everyone.

 

Shikasika, I'm done - as I wrote above, I am satisfied that any encouragement or condoning of illegal drug use that your posts suggest are counterbalanced with my responses and I am glad you pointed out "how could I know drugs are dangerous if I've never tried them" or something like that because if that's not grasping at straws, with all due respect, I don't know what is - but at least it will reflect the questionable nature of your pro-drug arguments.

 

Ok, if you want to leave a debate because I differ from you then thats up to you.

 

If I told you that your whole reason for being 'anti-drug is questionable.. you just say 'its FACT not opinion".. yet when I give my views you say things like "thats grasping at straws and that its questionable"

 

I don't see at is being very respectable of my opinions.

 

I'm fine with you NOT doing drugs... so why can't you be fine with me and others doing drugs?

[shikashika]

Nope, I'm just a very opinionated person >.

 

so what are your opinions based on?

[JadedStar]

I wish I had a dollar for every person I have met in my life who started out on a drug saying "i am too smart to get addicted, i know what I am doing".

 

I don't do drugs, and never will, but I am not clueless. I have known to many people in my time whose lives were destroyed over it. To include some MANY smart people. I won't even go into it much here but let is just say I hear what Batya is saying loud and clear....and Melrich.

 

ANd I don't mean even just young people. Crystal meth, crack and coke, and pain pill addictions, became an epidemic in the last county I lived in. It was sad and bizarre to see the familiar skinny face, rotten teeth and look of dreams washed down the toilet in so many of their faces. Many of them didn't even START the usage until their late 30s...and they had good jobs and just dabbled with this stuff at parties. They were all smart people, they knew they could only do this here and there on occasion.

 

So why did almost all of them end up addicted?

 

I won't lecture anyone here but I have seen enough to speak with some knowledge and the ONLY way to not become addicted to drugs is not to use them... THAT is the only guarantee.

 

I thought for a moment I entered the twilight zone here when i saw some folks who were pro drug use. EEK.. that to me is like being "pro playing street hockey in the middle of the interstate"!

[shikashika]

I wish I had a dollar for every person I have met in my life who started out on a drug saying "i am too smart to get addicted, i know what I am doing".

 

I don't do drugs, and never will, but I am not clueless. I have known to many people in my time whose lives were destroyed over it. To include some MANY smart people. I won't even go into it much here but let is just say I hear what Batya is saying loud and clear....and Melrich.

 

I also know MANY MANY smart people who have tried drugs and not been addicted. It works both ways. I could reply back and forth with my opinions and you and Batya and Melrich could respond with yours and we will always have opposing viewpoints

 

i know people who's lives have been destroyed over other things. I don't think the drugs are to blame in many circumstances.

[shikashika]

I thought for a moment I entered the twilight zone here when i saw some folks who were pro drug use. EEK.. that to me is like being "pro playing street hockey in the middle of the interstate"!

 

 

Was that me you were talking about?

 

I guess what I'm trying to get accross here is that many people just say 'Drugs are bad"

 

You give examples of crack and meth... what do you feel about other drugs such as MDMA?

 

I feel that many people do not have a great knowledge about that drug in particular and just say its bad before they ahve even read anything about it!

[JadedStar]

I think young people are curious... and to say "don't do it its bad" is only going to get responses like "but why??.. lots of people do it and they tell me how good it is!"

 

When my son asked me this question, I took him to the internet and we started doing searches...and we read and read and read of many countless stories from people who did them, what the side affects were, what livers looked like that were diseased from alcohol abuse, lungs that were tarnished with smoke for weed and cigarettes, what teeth look like after you have done crack and coke.....

 

And you know what the NUMBER one piece of info I shared with my son was when he said "why is crack bad"? A picture of what his uncle LOOKED LIKE eight years ago before he lost his family, job, home, and self worth....a devout family man who tried it here and there at parties.

 

That is the one piece of info that gave him chills.

[JadedStar]

I also know MANY MANY smart people who have tried drugs and not been addicted. It works both ways. I could reply back and forth with my opinions and you and Batya and Melrich could respond with yours and we will always have opposing viewpoints

 

i know people who's lives have been destroyed over other things. I don't think the drugs are to blame in many circumstances.

 

Yeah but the difference is, my message is to keep people who HAVE not tried it informed to let them know why trying it is not good. I woudl rather err on the side of safe vs err on the side of "well not EVERYBODY has a bad time if they try it.

 

Not everyone who smokes cigarettes gets lung cancer either, some of them are hit by a truck.

 

Point is, I would not advocate to anyone to smoke cigarettes even tho I did it for many years, and knock on wood no cancer....but there is NO WAY i would tell anyone else, hey i smoked a long time and I'm okay, it is not bad for everyone no more than I would say "sure try coke...not everyone gets hooked on it". Why take that chance?

[shikashika]

I agree, many people can end up sick, tarnished or dead from drug abuse.

 

And you are right, some people will become addicted when they had healthy happy lives before.

 

But why not make sure these drugs are SAFER, because people inevitably WILL take drugs.

 

I could do internet searches for car crashes, credit card debts, eating too much fatty foods and having heart attacks.

 

But just because some people abuse it, I don't think its right to take that away from EVERYONE.

 

I have always paid my credit card on time.. Should we take away all credit cards? I eat well and healthy.. should we remove all chips and chocolate because some people just don't know when to stop.

 

Also, I really think many drugs need to be reevaluated. Such as the one I keep bringing up, MDMA. What I find frightening, is that it was made illegal without the proper facts and science. ( take a look at some of those links!)

 

This drug was a therapeutic drug for years until someone decided to ban it.

 

i grew up with the just say no.. and had people come to my school saying things like 'this was me before.. look at my life now'

Didn't stop me from trying anything.

[shikashika]

Yeah but the difference is, my message is to keep people who HAVE not tried it informed to let them know why trying it is not good. I woudl rather err on the side of safe vs err on the side of "well not EVERYBODY has a bad time if they try it.

 

Not everyone who smokes cigarettes gets lung cancer either, some of them are hit by a truck.

 

Point is, I would not advocate to anyone to smoke cigarettes even tho I did it for many years, and knock on wood no cancer....but there is NO WAY i would tell anyone else, hey i smoked a long time and I'm okay, it is not bad for everyone no more than I would say "sure try coke...not everyone gets hooked on it". Why take that chance?

 

 

I have never advocated drugs either.. but I do think people should be informed on what they are taking. I know people who do not know the difference between coke, MDMA, weed etc etc. "Its all bad, its drugs, Ive seen the pictures"

 

People should at least be informed of drugs, what they do etc rather than just being scared into not taking them.

[JadedStar]

I have never advocated drugs either.. but I do think people should be informed on what they are taking. I know people who do not know the difference between coke, MDMA, weed etc etc. "Its all bad, its drugs, Ive seen the pictures"

 

People should at least be informed of drugs, what they do etc rather than just being scared into not taking them.

 

 

TOo many people put things into their bodies without doing the research. There is no way I would ingest anything, not even a script from the doctor, without researching it and making myself informed of what it could do and what to look out for.

[shikashika]

TOo many people put things into their bodies without doing the research. There is no way I would ingest anything, not even a script from the doctor, without researching it and making myself informed of what it could do and what to look out for.

 

Again, I agree.. I hear from friends who are sick, and the doctor gives them pills to take.. when I ask, "What are they? "I usually get a "I dunno"

[Batya33]

Ok, if you want to leave a debate because I differ from you then thats up to you.

 

If I told you that your whole reason for being 'anti-drug is questionable.. you just say 'its FACT not opinion".. yet when I give my views you say things like "thats grasping at straws and that its questionable"

 

I don't see at is being very respectable of my opinions.

 

I'm fine with you NOT doing drugs... so why can't you be fine with me and others doing drugs?

 

No I am leaving the debate because I feel I have adequately presented my version, achieved my goal of making sure that your pro-drug statements won't do too much harm to those who are reading and may be impressionable - not because I have a need to win and certainly not because I can't counter your arguments very easily - I simply choose not to and I don't find them interesting or challenging where I would care to respond other than to make sure that your pro-drug statements don't stand alone without a response -and that's not so I can be "right" that's just to protect otehrs.

 

I am not fine with you and other doing drugs and claiming on this forum that it is ok to do illegal drugs because it hurts others physically and emotionally, reinforces illegal behavior, it kills people, it unncecesarily increases health care costs, increases crime and related violence including gang violence, increases the burdens on the justice system and in prisons, negatively impacts the work force, job productivity, etc. - the list goes on on and on. In contrast, my not doing drugs and advising others not to do drugs and helping others stay away from and recover from drug abuse have none of these negative impacts and indeed have proven positive impacts.

 

I pointed out specific ways you grasped at straws so please don't misunderstand - i.e. how can I know about illegal drugs if I didn't try them - and called it irresponsible to promote illegal drug use as safe particularly on this forum and particularly for teenagers. That is my opinion.

 

If you would like to think you "won" some debate go right ahead - unlike you, my goal was to protect not to win.

 

Good luck with all.

[shikashika]

Why do you suggest I'm out to win.. I'm not! It just seems like you don't like me debating or disagreeing with you!

 

Just like you, I want to educate people. I don't understand why the tone in your post is so negative. I have honestly enjoyed talking to you about this! I just disagree with you. Especially when you say things like "what I'm doing is positive, but what you are doing is negative!"

 

I hope I have not offended you. I believe that many people are undereducated about many drugs and I would like to share my viewpoints on it.

 

I understand you think differently than me.. but all I see is you saying things like "drugs are bad, people die, people commit crimes etc etc. Yes, SOME people do!!! but i don't agree that this is what will happen if people take drugs.

 

And you haven't even said which drugs you have seen that cause this! Certain drugs, yes! Many people here have talked about crack and meth and heroine. And I've agreed.. they are prettyyucky stuff!

 

And then if I mention a different drug, such as weed or MDMA, many people do not even realise the differences in all these drugs. When I've offered my viewpoints or links, people just tell me they are not worthy ( why, because you don't agree with them?!?)

 

Why not find out more about them, so you can use those facts to back up your opinions?

 

I too want to protect people. I want to educate them about drugs, what the involve and if they are going to take them, how to take them in the safest environment possible.

 

I do not find your opinion 'wrong' and I commend you for helping people who have a drug habit, I just feel that I'm open to listening to your opinions, but you haven't felt the same about mine.