For MEN and WOMEN Are Most people unhappily married?

[novaseeker]

 

I believe most (not ALL) marriages are NOT happy unions.

 

We already know at least 50% are not, right? (because they get divorced).

 

Of the other 50%, I figure at least half of them have decided to settle for less than what they bargained for. For a variety of reasons, but it is

settling none the less.

This I think is generally correct. Although the numbers have moved slightly down from 50%, I think almost between 45-50% end in divorce, and it's really silly to assume that 100% of the remaining 50-55% are totally fulfilled and happily sharing undying marital bliss. As a result I'd have to agree that the majority of marriages are not happy.

 

I believe this is because marriage as we now know it, is substantially unfair to women as a general rule.

 

This is a part of the reason, and it's certainly true that in many marriages women are getting the short end of the proverbial stick.

 

Another part of the reason, in my opinion, and something that is more fundamental or structural in nature, is the advent of the widespread belief that marriage is about personal happiness and fuflillment, and that when it ceases to satisfy those needs, it becomes unsatisfying. People's expectations about marriage have shifted drastically, and pretty much in the direction of marriage as a tool for self fulfillment and self happiness. Thus when it ceases to satisfy these expectations, it's jettisoned as a part of the ongoing quest for self fulfillment and self happiness.

 

As a culture we talk of this all the time: "you deserve to be happy and be fufilled". And I'm not saying I disagree with that. I like being happy and fulfilled too. But what's true is that these goals had nothing to do with establishing the institution of marriage whatsoever. Marriage as an insitution was never expected to be about self fulfillment and self happiness, and it functions pretty badly at satisfying those goals for most people who marry, statistically speaking. In a sense we're trying to cram our very contemporary expectations about life, and what constitutes a fulfilling life, into an old social form that was established with very, very different ideas in mind. And then we act surprised that it goes kerplooey so often!

 

The only "successful" marriages I know of are the ones where the men have stepped out of their little cocoons and decided that it just doesn't take a vagina to do laundry, cook and clean, and care for children. That these are adult roles, not related to gender, and that it is unfair to load all these additional responsibilities onto one person.

There are also the marriages of very religious people. Not that all of these succeed, but a higher proportion of them do, in my view precisely because the parties to the marriage do not view marriage as being about personal happiness and fulfillment, but see it as being about something else (and take the "trials" of marriage in a different light). I'm not a religious person, and I'm not advocating that perspective, but it's a pretty observable phenomenon I think.

[onmyownagain]

One of the problems I had in my marriage was the grass is always greener mentality. You see your single friends out with a lovely new woman with tales of endless sex and you think, huh I am stuck with my boring wife who never wants it when I do.

 

My wife and I split for three months recently and I now we are back with each other I can tell you that none of the above now apply.

 

If I go to a bar with my single friends now I feel sorry for them and the rest of the people trying to get in each others pants all evening, looks pathetic to me. I look forward to going home at the end of the night to my lovely wife.

 

I am not saying all married couples you split up for a while but it does but your relationship back into perspective.

[Lunabelle]

Marriage as an insitution was never expected to be about self fulfillment and self happiness, and it functions pretty badly at satisfying those goals for most people

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments pertaining to the expectations in marriage.

 

However, with all due respect (having agreed with your opinions!) as far as I can tell, marriage as an "institution" was in fact created to ensure that MEN were fulfilled and happy. This had to happen in order to allow women some sense of safety and security. This was because women were literally handed over, from the responsibility of their father (or uncle/brother in father's absense) to the responsibility of their husband.

 

Women were owned like cattle or slaves, and could be bought, sold, given away, or abandoned likewise. Any half-brained woman was going to ensure her husband's happiness, because her very life depended on it, much less the lives of her children or her family.

 

While it is not this way now for most women, we as a society have not adjusted our concept of marriage to today's reality. Until we do, so many people will continue to suffer in agony through these relationships that they unwittingly expected to provide their happiness. In fact we are still raising our little darlings (particularly girls) to believe they are INCOMPLETE as human beings, and need a man to be "whole" or "complete" in their own life. This is the most ridiculous load I've ever heard.

 

Only when women's issues have been settled in the home will they carry over into the workplace. We can force them in the workplace by passing laws, but that will never work in our homes.

 

Basically we have to raise our children differently, particularly the girls. No easy task.

[novaseeker]

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments pertaining to the expectations in marriage.

 

However, with all due respect (having agreed with your opinions!) as far as I can tell, marriage as an "institution" was in fact created to ensure that MEN were fulfilled and happy.

 

Not exactly. The concepts of "fufilled" and "happy" as we use them are thoroughly modern, contemporary concepts. Marriage wasn't really instituted to make men "happy" in the modern sense, but to secure property, inheritance, family lines and the like. It was definitely patriarchal and in the male "interest" ... but not at all in the contemporary sense of "fulfillment" or "happiness". Marriage was as much of a serious "business" decision as anything else ... the concept of it existing to make the male partner "happy" were alien to the folks who came up with this social structure, and really that notion has only come into marriage fairly recently.

 

While it is not this way now for most women, we as a society have not adjusted our concept of marriage to today's reality.

Maybe it just isn't easily adjustable. I think we ought to be looking at other types of recognised relationships, legally, given how marriage is basically failing right now as a model in the majority of cases.

 

Only when women's issues have been settled in the home will they carry over into the workplace. We can force them in the workplace by passing laws, but that will never work in our homes.

This is very true indeed.

 

Basically we have to raise our children differently, particularly the girls. No easy task.

Well, I'd actualy say it's more important to change the male culture and acculturation. Women's culture has changed a lot in the last 40 years, whereas the changes in men's culture have been ... there, but not nearly to the same degree. The issue is that this kind of change really can only come from within male culture. As long as the males at the office expect the males there (even the ones with families) to work harder, longer, not take family medical leave, not be the parent dealing with sick children, school events, etc., etc., etc. ... as long as that cultural expectation exists for men, men won't be equal participants in the work at home either, to be honest.

[Lunabelle]

Novaseeker, you make some excellent points.

 

I wonder, do you think childless marriages are more satisfying? (I mean specifically those couples that want to be childless, not those trying and cannot have children.)

 

In my own marriage, we were doing okay until we started having children. Then all these other issues came into play -- more "expectations" from each of us about what a mother should do or a father should do. It brought in all this history from childhoods that previously had not overtly affected our marriage.

 

I would think it would be easier in a lot of respects without having children, easier on the marriage I mean, because then you can each maintain that focus on each other. Having said that, I don't know that's necessarily such a good idea!

 

Frankly I think women just go about the relationships all wrong. Men tend to think along the lines of integrating the woman into their lives, like a special little added piece of the pie that makes up their life. Women, on the other hand, make their spouse their ENTIRE life. Of course it's hard for men to complain about this, who doesn't want to be adored and slaved over? But at the same time it narrows the woman's world, it blinders her right down to the immediate needs of the man/family in front of her.

 

This is a very timely discussion for me, yet I feel frustrated in my lame attempts to express myself. I'm fighting all these conflicting feelings right now. Divorce or don't divorce? Go to the job I love, or stay home and be with my children, who will only be around a few more years? Is it worth putting a renewed effort in to my dead marriage? Do people really ever change? Can I change? Am I stupid to hope for some type of fulfillment (what kind?) from this seemingly archaic institution? Can I learn to forgive and forget? Can I learn to forgive, period?

 

I've read a lot of the Michele Weiner Davis books that are obsessively against divorce. That sure gives you a lot to consider. I've also coincidentally been reading a lot of the older feminist publications like "Second Sex" and Betty Freidan's stuff. My head is full of opinions and worries and concerns and guilt trips and rationalizations. Not to mention the regrets.

 

So you can see why this question got my attention.....sorry I've rambled a bit here....just needed to vent a bit.....

[Orlander]

I'm surprised no one has talked about arranged marriage and its success rate versus "western" marriages. I have known several couples who have been in arranged marriages for many years and seem very happy.

 

Men tend to think along the lines of integrating the woman into their lives, like a special little added piece of the pie that makes up their life. Women, on the other hand, make their spouse their ENTIRE life. Of course it's hard for men to complain about this, who doesn't want to be adored and slaved over? But at the same time it narrows the woman's world, it blinders her right down to the immediate needs of the man/family in front of her.

Sorry, i don't agree with this generalization at all, at least from my own personal experiences.

 

Orlander

[novaseeker]

I'm surprised no one has talked about arranged marriage and its success rate versus "western" marriages. I have known several couples who have been in arranged marriages for many years and seem very happy.

 

That gets to the "expectations" issue I mentioned in my posts above.

 

The "expectations" for the parties to an arranged marriage are vastly, vastly different than is the case for a romantically-based marriage as we have in the "West". As a result comparing "happiness" rates in these different kinds of marriages is really just comparing apples and oranges because the measuring stick for judging "happiness" is very different.

 

I would say that in my opinion arranged marriages reflect more closely the original intention of marriage to begin with than the current Western model does. That doesn't mean I'm a supporter of arranged marriages, however! I don't at all think they fit for people who are Western ... but I'm not sure that the Western marriage model is working very well for people who are Western either.

[Scout]

Men tend to think along the lines of integrating the woman into their lives, like a special little added piece of the pie that makes up their life. Women, on the other hand, make their spouse their ENTIRE life. Of course it's hard for men to complain about this, who doesn't want to be adored and slaved over? But at the same time it narrows the woman's world, it blinders her right down to the immediate needs of the man/family in front of her

 

That's it, right there. Both have different expectations and half the time, don't even realize it. Men start to feel chained and resentful that they are the woman's entire world, and the woman is baffled and angry that he doesn't view her the same way.

 

I know I've been guilty of this myself, and to an extent, still so in my current relationship which is the best one I've ever had. I'm trying to work on that, though.

 

The one thing I don't get is the resentment about doing housework. I actually consider myself a feminist in many ways, but I love to cook for my boyfriend and I know where all the plates and stuff go, so I clean up afterwards, too. He always offer to help and I say don't worry about it. He said a few times, well, I feel bad you're doing all the work. I thought about it for a second, then said, enjoy it while it lasts! When I get sick of it, I'll let you know, lol.

 

If we were to live together and it turns out he's a slob, I'm just going to suggest we get maid service every couple of weeks. It seems people make a really big deal out of the division of chores, and I can never understand why, when there's an easy solution: surely a couple living together can come up with an extra $100 bucks or so a month for a cleaning service.

[doyathink]

There will always be money problems and not enough sex problems whether you are married or not. The thing is, most people forget that marriage is a union of two people becoming one! Everyone still wants their own set of rules and forget compromise is the key. One or the other feel they need the other to give into their set of beliefs and thats that. Too much selfishness and disrespect end a lot of marriages.

[Daddy Bear]

elderly single people are generally lonely and miserable. elderly couples always look happy. why? because when the endorphins and other hormones have dried up, there's a lot to be said for having someone around with whom you have a long shared history. i suspect that therein lies the greatest happiness that life has to offer. there's more to planning ahead than having a retirement account.

 

bitter people (and i have spotted a few on this site, but won't stoop to point) should never get married/civilly unionized. compromising people excel at it.

 

yes, half of marriages fail, but the people who toss that around to justify trashing the institution should understand the statistics. one short failed marriage followed by one blissful lifetime marriage equals a 50% failure rate. correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most people either happily married or widowed when they die?

 

and this nonsensical generalization about "men are this" or "women are that" is just stereotyping, and we all need to let it go.

 

fire away, weddingophobes.

[Dako]

Stats are always open to interpretation.

 

A divorce doesn't negate the success of a marriage, and remaining together doesn't indicate bliss. It's just a friggin contract or living arrangement, and not a real indicator of happiness. That's inside a person, not on a spreadsheet.

[RayKay]

A divorce doesn't negate the success of a marriage, and remaining together doesn't indicate bliss. It's just a friggin contract or living arrangement, and not a real indicator of happiness. That's inside a person, not on a spreadsheet.

 

While for me a divorce at least indicates in the end it was not so great, whom is to say that for some marriage is supposed to be a temporary contract, so it is successful. Maybe they spent many great years together, grew apart and decided it had run it's course, and to them that was success?

 

I quoted you mainly because I absolutely agree with you on the latter points though. I have known a lot of people whom have remained together whom are absolutely miserable, or strangers residing in the same home. Is that successful?

 

Happiness is indeed something that comes from within. I personally believe that being married is a state of mind, a decision made in your heart and mind, whether there is a piece of paper or not. Some couples whom are not legally married are for me, perfect role models of ultimate commitment (like my mother and common-law stepfather for example). Others whom are married have one or both partners whom are clearly in their minds and hearts not at all married.

 

 

Frankly I think women just go about the relationships all wrong. Men tend to think along the lines of integrating the woman into their lives, like a special little added piece of the pie that makes up their life. Women, on the other hand, make their spouse their ENTIRE life. Of course it's hard for men to complain about this, who doesn't want to be adored and slaved over? But at the same time it narrows the woman's world, it blinders her right down to the immediate needs of the man/family in front of her.

 

 

While I agree SOME women and men do this, I think you have to be very careful of making generalizations here. In my relationship my partner and I both have great balance in our lives, with our own individual interests and passions, as well as things we share together. We enrich one another's lives, rather then become the source of it. I think it is important men and women both remember they are individuals, and realize sometimes they have to meet their own needs, and cannot depend entirely on their partner to do it for them. Of course, that does not mean settling for less then you deserve and need in a partner and relationship either.

[Dako]

Raykay,

The paperwork means nothing unless your heart is governed by the state.

To me, marriage is a promise to partner. Divorce is when that promise is broken.

[Dako]

Mars/Venus gets recommended so much in the forum I always get this urge to comment, but hold back.

 

I find it's based on gender stereotypes that often don't hold water for some individuals. If you fit the stereotypes it may be insightful, but in my view, we have free will and individuality to consider.

 

Maybe having close gay and lesbian friends, a long relationship with a nontraditional woman or my lack of concern for appearing masculine have damaged me beyond repair. As a typical male, I'm resistant to changing my outlook.

[Scout]

Dako, my boyfriend shuns the whole grunting masculine identity that is so often forced on men. He's sensitive, affectionate, extremely bright, and a very caring soul. I wouldn't have it any other way. I just don't call that kind of persona damaged, if anything, it's holding on to a healthy mindset despite tremendous pressure from society to be something entirely different.

[Dako]

Sounds like he's man enough to be himself.

 

I smoke stogies, work on engines and don't exfoiliate, just enough affectation to stay in the guy's club.

[Scout]

lol, my guy has his rough edges, too...he refuses to wear anything but flannel shirts and converse shoes. Also, he can fix anything. But, and he would kill me for publicizing this...one night, I made the mistake of watching two sad programs in a row on TV. One was about dogs that are kidnapped by people and then sold to animal research labs. The next program was about starving children in Africa. I called him up sobbing, and he came right over. As I was describing the shows and expressing all my pain I felt with the world, he got moved to tears, too.

 

He's just a big softie. And I love it!

[Lunabelle]

Put up with years of an unsatisfying, even hurtful relationship because I'm afraid to be alone when I'm old? No way. That's just stupid.

 

Relationships are supposed to improve the quality of your life.

 

And know that a lot of older people are RELIEVED when their spouse passes on. This assumption that older married people are all happy is just wrong.

[Dako]

Like the old joke:

Why do married men die before their wives do?

They want to.

[Lunabelle]

The one thing I don't get is the resentment about doing housework.

 

If we were to live together and it turns out he's a slob, I'm just going to suggest we get maid service every couple of weeks.

 

Personally my resentment comes in for a few reasons. One, because I'm expected to assume this responsibility on top of everything else in life. We both work, and then I get to come home and work too. Two, because he assumed from the moment we married that it would be my responsibility without taking one second to actually consider why, or how I felt about it. Three, because when he takes care of his PERSONAL dishes or laundry, he acts like he's "helping" ME and I should be so grateful for it!

 

I highly suggest simply hiring help as Scout mentioned. This solves many problems.

[Dako]

If things are lopsided on balance, I see your point.

Some couples are happy enough not to keep score, but they've probably got a fair arrangement in the first place.

[Scout]

Personally my resentment comes in for a few reasons. One, because I'm expected to assume this responsibility on top of everything else in life. We both work, and then I get to come home and work too. Two, because he assumed from the moment we married that it would be my responsibility without taking one second to actually consider why, or how I felt about it. Three, because when he takes care of his PERSONAL dishes or laundry, he acts like he's "helping" ME and I should be so grateful for it!

 

I completely understand. I would probably feel that resentment after a while, too, to be honest. No one wants to feel extra work is simply expected of them. I'm not sure what causes that, either, because I read about couples who lived together before they were married, and are baffled why their partner's expectations changed afterwards.

[Lunabelle]

elderly single people are generally lonely and miserable. elderly couples always look happy.

 

What elders are you referring to? This sounds like a slight generalization here.....or maybe you're just posting nonsensical generalizations?

 

bitter people (and i have spotted a few on this site, but won't stoop to point) should never get married/civilly unionized. compromising people excel at it..

 

LOL are you kidding? We weren't bitter to begin with. Compromising people compromise nothing but themselves.

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't most people either happily married or widowed when they die?.

 

NO, no they are not. Where do you get this stuff?

 

and this nonsensical generalization about "men are this" or "women are that" is just stereotyping, and we all need to let it go. ?.

 

Good luck with that, fact is, there are certain ways of behavior that are predominantly male or female. Of course there are exceptions, all the time.

[Lunabelle]

I read about couples who lived together before they were married, and are baffled why their partner's expectations changed afterwards.

 

Yes, I have recently been reading about this too. It seems to have some connection to the finality of the marriage, the relationship becomes more "real" or more permanent when tied by legal bonds. Some authors suggest couples who do NOT live together have a greater chance at happiness in marriage because of this.

[Daddy Bear]

i have zero interest with regard to flame wars and personal attacks. if anyone has concrete evidence to refute my assertations, i welcome it. calling me stupid merely validates one of my points and affirms my mental prediction as to the reactionary response to my comments.

 

thank you.