Nice guys do finish last!!!

[Miss M]

Something seems very obvious to me... but then maybe it's not obvious to others. So just for the sake of clarity, I'll just go ahead and state the obvious.

 

Finally, to all you "nice" guys out there that have posted, Miss M doesn't believe you're nice at all, you just feel women are obligated to have sex with you because you're nice to them. Well, atleast those are the guys she's advising.

I can articulate what I meant well enough and don't really need Shidoshi (of all people to act as my interpeter. Just because he has appointed himself here as the official mouthpiece for me, that doesn't mean he's been authorized to do so, and it certainly doesn't mean he's making an accurate interpretation. If anyone would like an accurate rendering of what I said, they should take a look at MY posts, not Shidoshi's. Or maybe ask me directly for further clarity.

 

Ok well iono.U say that the feeling u get from what you are reading is that nice guys think they can have sex with a girl if they are nice?No thats not what a guy like me does if im put in the nice category.I have started to find sex disgusting with how many people completely detroy it.I never look at sex as the main object of a relationship.Ya and btw dont bash me about that i dont care if i havent been in a relationship this is how i personally i see how i would treat one.Most males think no sex then goodbye to you.If u love the person that bullcrap doesnt matter one bit what they want is what you should accept.None of this "o you dont give me sex then ill leave you" Its utter nonsense too me.

Shinobie, as I read this, I realize how rare it is that a person feels this way. Or maybe there are lots of others who feel this way, but maybe the ones who "bash" and ridicule and disparage those of us who have these kinds of thoughts are just extra loud and aggressive. Not really sure why they need to do that, unless they feel threatened by someone different. Or maybe we just think we're surrounded by them because they make the most noise and are the most intrusive, but maybe we actually aren't. Not sure which. But my point is, being upfront about this seems to get one ridiculed and scoffed at quite a lot. It's amazing to me now to look back through the years at all the times I've been criticized and ridiculed for sticking to my principles. I'd say always remember to ignore those who give you their scorn for sticking to your principles. Do stay true to your heart, and be wary of anyone who asks you to abandon it. And most of all, best of luck for finding that special someone who can meet you there.

[Shidoshi]

How about some quotes.

But I've read a lot of posts written by guys who say they're "nice," but when they describe their behavior they really don't treat women like queens.

sometimes guys don't know they're being nice in order to get a good result. That's why I brought it up. Some guys think they're being nice when they really are just being selfish.

I'm using the "label" that others started using here, but the whole point I've been making is that the "nice" label is being used by guys who think themselves as nice when they really aren't. I didn't say that I thought they were nice, because actually I don't think they are. That's what I've been trying to say.

I have no idea who these other nice guys are that she says have been posting.

[Miss M]

I have no idea who these other nice guys are that she says have been posting.

And that's exactly why you can't be my intepreter. After all my lengthy explanations that were addressing your specific comments and queries, you still have "no idea" who I was talking about, or what I was trying to say. I'm now just saying you're not authorized to speak on my behalf... or is that also an impossible concept for you to understand?

[Shidoshi]

After all my lengthy explanations that were addressing your specific comments and queries, you still have "no idea" who I was talking about, or what I was trying to say.

I know exactly what YOU are talking about, and I'm saying it doesn't apply to the guys who were complaining in THIS thread.

I'm now just saying you're not authorized to speak on my behalf... or is that also an impossible concept for you to understand?

I could care less if you perceive it that way. I'm "authorized" to say whatever I please. Have a good day!

[jevonj77]

I think that a nice guy does not finnish last...but I do believe a "push over" and or "door mat" would. Why because you see, the person when trying to get to the "finnish line" get's "pushed over" and then is walked on and used as a "door mat". So where ever they were trying to get to, to finnish, they can't until the others have already gotten there because the others are too busy walking on them and using them as "door matts". So thereforeeee they finnish last...(hehehe)...

 

I really think that people need to take a break and realize that if their formula is not working...then they should change some simple things and stop saying that it should be working or thinking that you are doing everything right...because it is obvious that "you" are not. Hence the no results.

[ShySoul]

and because I now realize that it is pointless, it HAS to mean all I wanted to do was argue

 

Awhile back you mentioned in a post about intentionally trying to annoy me or ruffle my feathers or something to that extent. That combined with your whole style of writing and desire to twist things around without really listening or addressing many of the key points that are made leaves it pretty much a given that your the kind of guy just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. I have seen it before, heck I've done it before (but only when I was mad at the person and wanted to annoy them).

 

YOU don't like what I have to say and vice versa, stop trying to make me out to be some villan when you're doing the exact same thing I am.

 

To the contrary, I love what you have to say. It provides me with much entertainment and something to laugh over with friends. It also reminds me of the kind of person I don't want to be and helps my resolve to not be like that ever. It's people like you that pushes me to hold true to myself and show everyone I knew what I was doing all along.

 

I mistakenly believed early on that you could handle some of my comments because you were a guy, alas, I was wrong.

 

You thought that I would be able to handle those statements because I was a guy? Why would gender make a difference? It isn't about being a guy or girl, its about if the arguments make sense or not. And your just don't add up. Sorry, they just don't.

 

Or Shy asked you to, who knows, that guy seems pretty weird at times

 

Yes Shidoshi, and I paid her off as well. Is it so hard for you to believe that I could think the same as Miss M? Can't you believe that she would, of her own free will, mention my name simple because we agree with each other? Yes, we have mentioned each other... because we believe the same things and are showing support and solidarity. I find Miss M to be a great and smart person, so I compliment her. Though I still wonder why I get females agreeing with me of their own free will when I never intend or make any effort to get that, while you seem to get support from no females.

 

Finally, to all you "nice" guys out there that have posted, Miss M doesn't believe you're nice at all, you just feel women are obligated to have sex with you because you're nice to them

 

How did you get this? She was trying to get at how their are two different types of nice guys she was referring to. The first is the real nice guy who is simple nice becuase he believes in being nice and doing the right thing. The second is a pseudo nice guu. This "nice guy" is really a jerk who pretends to be nice in order to get women and sleep with them. It becomes hard to tell the difference sometimes, and the real nice guys have to suffer because women don't trust that they really are a nice guy.

 

Most of the nice guys who post really are nice guys. I can tell Shinobie is for instance. But there are others who will post and they are only trying to use the nice guy image as a facade. It takes time to learn to tell the difference.

 

I know exactly what YOU are talking about, and I'm saying it doesn't apply to the guys who were complaining in THIS thread.

 

How do you know that? How come you can speak on behalf of all the guys posting? So unless it doesn't apply to you.... which doesn't get us anywhere.

 

I could care less if you perceive it that way. I'm "authorized" to say whatever I please.

 

Shidoshi, this is a problem you are going to have in life in general. Yes, you can say what you want, but there are factors to consider. You wouldn't go up to a homeless person on the street and presume that you are authorized to tell them they are a lazy bum who deserves nothing. There is a think called tack. You don't presume to know how someone feels unless you have really talked and listened to them and come to an understanding with them. You don't do that. You assume automatically that you know how people think and feel, and can talk for them. You get one idea stuck in your head, and you don't want to let in any other possiblity. You accuse me of that, when really its your problem. In my case, I'm willing to change and modify my point if I'm given good reason, but nothing you say qualifies.

 

I'm saying this cause that will help you relate to and get along better with people in general. No one likes someone who thinks they know what is best for everyone else.

[jordan_2]

for the umpteenth time

 

the "nice" guy is a generalization. The term as we know it is ths sobbing victim who cant find love because "the girl doesn't realize how perfect I am for them." I think what Miss M is saying (and notice shidoshi, i am making a fair interpretation instead of twisting her words) is that these sobbing nice guys are usually the ones who just act nice simply to get the attention of the girl they are after. It makes so much sense; if you liked a person, do you really think you would act like a jerk or be inconsiderate around them? it would make you seem unnattractive. This is where this whole issue of insecurity and genuity comes in. If you are truly a "NICE guy" as shysoul interprets the term, then you are one who is a KIND person in general. If you are genuine about being a good person, not simply to attract someone, but to be a good person, then that will show and attract the opposite sex. But if you are as insecure as the "sobbing

nice guy, then you are merely insecure about yourself so you have to personify this good boy image. The reason for this is because you need to be able to act a certain way so that way if anything were to go wrong, you can easily (and cowardly) put the blame on the other person because, hey, you were being the perfect guy, you can't get blamed for being perfect. WRONG! you need to take a step back and before you can become a genuine "nice guy" you need to become a "good person", end your facadial (if that's a word) persona of being nice just to be with a girl, and be kind, just to be kind. ONly then can you become a more confident person and realize that you can genuinly attract someone for the right reasons, instead of false pretenses.

[Miss M]

Ah, Jordan, reading your clarity is lovely... and a nice change too.

 

It's really very simple, isn't it? If you're pretentious, it's because you don't trust that you will be accepted as you are. And if you're a genuinely nice guy at the core, you really don't need to fear being alone.

 

And yes, I'd say you're making a fair interpretation of my comments. Thanks.

[Miss M]

Yes Shidoshi, and I paid her off as well.

You did???

So does that mean the check's in the mail?

 

I really could use some extra cash.

[Dre_7]

Good post Jordan, "nice guy" is a very general term. As a matter of fact, I think true nice guys don't even get stuck with that label, people who come accross them labels them as awesome or amazing guys. I think you can only really judge someone by who they are behind closed doors..i.e when they're with family, when they're with a friend, basically when they take off the "mask." Out in public, most people are generally friendly, and hospitable. But how many people would give money to the homeless when they're alone? How many people would hold doors for the elderly? Little things like that are a true measure of character. The nice guy-jerk debate is pointless...because "nice" girls get "nice" guys. The remnants of the population bicker over the superficial things. Perhaps the problem is that the so-called "remnant" makes up the majority of this generation.

[jordan_2]

thanks dre

as for your comment

 

Perhaps the problem is that the so-called "remnant" makes up the majority of this generation

 

its sad, but it's prolly true. I think part of it is that guys are scared to show their emotions and "true" self so they put on that front in order to forcefully create a persona that would hopefully attract the opposite sex. lol everytime i think about it, it seems really really desperate

[Dre_7]

thanks dre

as for your comment

 

Perhaps the problem is that the so-called "remnant" makes up the majority of this generation

 

its sad, but it's prolly true. I think part of it is that guys are scared to show their emotions and "true" self so they put on that front in order to forcefully create a persona that would hopefully attract the opposite sex. lol everytime i think about it, it seems really really desperate

 

It's desperate, but the majority rules I guess lol. As for me, I try to be myself all the time, because there's nothing more rewarding than someone whether in terms of love or friendship liking you for who you are. Sometimes, you just gotta move to the beat of your own drum

[jordan_2]

well said dre,

 

and let me add that i strive to be a good person in general and I've realized that honestly, people do notice and it does affect how people look at you. I think that also with this new perspective I've kinda been able to see a relationship for what it truly is. I don't jump head over heels right away like i used to. I think I've finally been able to be patient and embrace and cherish a genuine relationship rather than hit up 10 pointless ones. I don't know, we really need to get some people posting some disagreements to our thinking

[Dre_7]

well said dre,

 

and let me add that i strive to be a good person in general and I've realized that honestly, people do notice and it does affect how people look at you. I think that also with this new perspective I've kinda been able to see a relationship for what it truly is. I don't jump head over heels right away like i used to. I think I've finally been able to be patient and embrace and cherish a genuine relationship rather than hit up 10 pointless ones. I don't know, we really need to get some people posting some disagreements to our thinking

 

lol yeah we do need some disagreements to liven things up. I have also noticed that when you strive to be a good person, then good people respond to that.

[Shidoshi]

with your whole style of writing and desire to twist things around without really listening or addressing many of the key points that are made leaves it pretty much a given that your the kind of guy just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing.

That seems to be my issue with some people on this forum. They ignore the key points that I make, and instead attack my character because they don't agree. It's interesting that I see this exact trend on MY end.

I love what you have to say. It provides me with much entertainment and something to laugh over with friends. It also reminds me of the kind of person I don't want to be and helps my resolve to not be like that ever. It's people like you that pushes me to hold true to myself and show everyone I knew what I was doing all along.

Oh my! I think we have a future pope on our hands. Hey, I'm just glad you enjoy it, that means we can debate again soon (well, this might actually count).

You thought that I would be able to handle those statements because I was a guy? Why would gender make a difference? It isn't about being a guy or girl, its about if the arguments make sense or not. And your just don't add up. Sorry, they just don't.

Initially, yes. Gender does make a difference actually, have you ever visited a predominately male forum(or even have male friends), very different experience. I guess it also depends on the type of forum it is.

Yes Shidoshi, and I paid her off as well. Is it so hard for you to believe that I could think the same as Miss M? Can't you believe that she would, of her own free will, mention my name simple because we agree with each other? Yes, we have mentioned each other... because we believe the same things and are showing support and solidarity.

I have no doubt that you and her share the same beliefs, there's plenty of proof for that. Yes, you guys have a very solid connection.

Though I still wonder why I get females agreeing with me of their own free will when I never intend or make any effort to get that, while you seem to get support from no females.

That's because I don't look for support from females. As I've mentioned earlier, you think like them, it doesn't surprise me at all.

Shidoshi, this is a problem you are going to have in life in general. Yes, you can say what you want, but there are factors to consider. You wouldn't go up to a homeless person on the street and presume that you are authorized to tell them they are a lazy bum who deserves nothing. There is a think called tack. You don't presume to know how someone feels unless you have really talked and listened to them and come to an understanding with them. You don't do that. You assume automatically that you know how people think and feel, and can talk for them. You get one idea stuck in your head, and you don't want to let in any other possiblity. You accuse me of that, when really its your problem. In my case, I'm willing to change and modify my point if I'm given good reason, but nothing you say qualifies.

Wow, this was a great analysis Shysoul, or should I call you Dr. Phil? Why waste so much time analyzing who you think I am, and stick to making strong arguments? Why not let Miss M defend herself, she's a grown woman isn't she? If she's done with this why not let it go?

[Alabama]

I wondered what ever happened to Rage Chemist...he has yet to post, besides starting this discussion. And now it's a huge flame war. What a great debate this is turning out to be...

[Shidoshi]

If you are genuine about being a good person, not simply to attract someone, but to be a good person, then that will show and attract the opposite sex.

Sure, it's just that simple, and we all know that the insecure guys that claim to be nice aren't really. The best advice to give them is to be a genuinely nice person? Why didn't I think of that, it's so obvious?

 

I understand what you're saying, and I don't agree with the advice that has been given to help these guys. I also don't go as far as to assume they aren't actually genuinely nice people. Their methods aren't working and they're frustrated, that doesn't mean they aren't trully nice guys.

[Shidoshi]

ShySoul wrote:

Yes Shidoshi, and I paid her off as well.

 

You did???

So does that mean the check's in the mail?

 

I really could use some extra cash.

You still here?

 

Hey, when you and Shy get married can I come sing at the wedding?

[ShySoul]

You did???

So does that mean the check's in the mail?

 

I really could use some extra cash.

 

We can all use some extra cash, can't we? Will you accept payment in enotalone bucks? They are worthless everywhere else, but entitle you to "free" chats with yours truly. You can talk about anything and everything. And sense you can do that for free anyways, it has no value. Though it would be cute to make bills with our avatars to represent us.

 

Hey, when you and Shy get married can I come sing at the wedding?

 

Sorry, I'm taken. Remember? So there won't be a wedding. And I'm not sure if my girl would approve of you. But if you like you can submit a resume and some samples of your work for evaluation.

 

Dre_7 and jordan_2,

 

Great posts and you two are right on. Most people are superficial and hide behind masks. But I think that the real nice guys, even if its not their intent, can provide the examples that turn the others towards what is really important. So talking about it does help, along with leading by example. The key is to just not expect anyone to change or get it. Stand up for yourself, do whats right, and not back down. If they don't get it, then thats really kinda sad.

[Dre_7]

Right on Shysoul, people who don't get it really aren't worth it. I'd still like to hear from someone who has an opinion that's the totally opposite of MissM, Shysoul, Jordan_2 and I lol, but I guess that's most people.

[ShySoul]

Right on Shysoul, people who don't get it really aren't worth it. I'd still like to hear from someone who has an opinion that's the totally opposite of MissM, Shysoul, Jordan_2 and I lol, but I guess that's most people.

 

Actually, I think you hear from those people all the time. It's people like us who usually don't get their voices heard. Either the nice ones are also the shy ones, or the not so nice ones are just really loud and vocal.

 

Oh my! I think we have a future pope on our hands.

 

Pope? Nah. I can't be constrained to one religion. My views encompass the whole spectrum of philsophy and theology. Time to focus on what unites us, not separates us.

 

Gender does make a difference actually, have you ever visited a predominately male forum(or even have male friends), very different experience. I guess it also depends on the type of forum it is.

 

You know, thats a good point. You can even see it on here. Most of the women tend to be good listeners, writing clear distinct points, and willing to reason. Most of the guys tend to be stubborn and unwilling to reason.

 

That's because I don't look for support from females. As I've mentioned earlier, you think like them, it doesn't surprise me at all.

 

You won't believe this because you have it stuck in your head that I'm trying to suck up to women. But I state clearly, with 100% confidence, I do not look for support from females, or from males either for that matter. I simple voice my beliefs. It just happens that women agree with it.

 

Wow, this was a great analysis Shysoul, or should I call you Dr. Phil? Why waste so much time analyzing who you think I am, and stick to making strong arguments? Why not let Miss M defend herself, she's a grown woman isn't she? If she's done with this why not let it go?

 

Because I care about you. For all our differences, for all the debates and arguments, and even the digs at each other.... I still care about you. When I see someone engaging in behavior that will cause them problems, and I know that its easy to resolve, I'm going to speak out. You don't have to listen, but at least by me saying something I do something instead of sitting back and doing nothing. Maybe one day you'll think of what I say differently, maybe not. But at least its something to think of.

 

And I was defending myself as well. You made comments directed towards me, and I was going to respond. While I'm posting, why not say everything on my mind?

[Shidoshi]

Quote:

Right on Shysoul, people who don't get it really aren't worth it. I'd still like to hear from someone who has an opinion that's the totally opposite of MissM, Shysoul, Jordan_2 and I lol, but I guess that's most people.

 

 

Actually, I think you hear from those people all the time. It's people like us who usually don't get their voices heard. Either the nice ones are also the shy ones, or the not so nice ones are just really loud and vocal.

I disagree, atleast when it comes to this forum. I think I'm actually in the minority here. I think there's a reason for it too, but that's another discussion. You forget that a lot of people used to believe some of the things you guys talk about, but when faced with the harsh reality of life, some wise up, and either make necessary changes or concede and not deal with it, even go into denial about it. Whatever coping strategy works for you I guess.

Quote:

That's because I don't look for support from females. As I've mentioned earlier, you think like them, it doesn't surprise me at all.

 

 

 

You won't believe this because you have it stuck in your head that I'm trying to suck up to women. But I state clearly, with 100% confidence, I do not look for support from females, or from males either for that matter. I simple voice my beliefs. It just happens that women agree with it.

Oh I'm not saying you consciously look for it, not at all. I can see why you get the support you do from women, especially a few on this forum.

Quote:

Wow, this was a great analysis Shysoul, or should I call you Dr. Phil? Why waste so much time analyzing who you think I am, and stick to making strong arguments? Why not let Miss M defend herself, she's a grown woman isn't she? If she's done with this why not let it go?

 

 

Because I care about you. For all our differences, for all the debates and arguments, and even the digs at each other.... I still care about you. When I see someone engaging in behavior that will cause them problems, and I know that its easy to resolve, I'm going to speak out. You don't have to listen, but at least by me saying something I do something instead of sitting back and doing nothing. Maybe one day you'll think of what I say differently, maybe not. But at least its something to think of.

 

And I was defending myself as well. You made comments directed towards me, and I was going to respond. While I'm posting, why not say everything on my mind?

What behavior am I engaging in that's causing ME problems? You know, lol, you seem to have a real self righteous attitude as if you understand everything, and the beliefs you hold are above other peoples. I could go on and on about what type of person you are but all that will do is start some stupid flame war, which gets old really fast.

 

The truly humorous part of all this is that you guys don't even understand what we disagree on "fundamentally." Some people on this forum are so easily offended that you can't even get to the meat of an argument.

 

By all means, say what's on your mind. I wish I could just say what's on my mind but it won't fly in this forum.

[Dre_7]

Shidoshi,

 

I've been faced with the harsh realities of life, if anything they've made me hold onto my values even more. So I take it you used to think that being a nice guy was the way to go?

 

Well, of course you were absolutely wrong. People who are pushovers get trampled. The issue is not about being a good person, it's about not being needy and clingy. There are girls who are just like guys who assimilate that "nice" girl role and they get trampled on just like nice guys do.

You don't have to be "nice" to become needy, people become like that when their life revolves around a relationship, or getting into one.

 

If someone is weak in a crisis then indeed they are weak. If one girl is all it takes for a guy to turn into a so-called jerk, then he didn't know who he really was in the first place. That's why I hate this nice guy vs. jerk debate, it never ends..and neither side can see the validity of the other's arguments. Plus different people like different things...some girls like good guys and some girls like the bad boys, it's that simple.

 

And the truth is, it really doesn't matter what you are because your personality really determines the outcome of your life. In essense, be who you are, and get what you deserve... So to each his (or her) own...

[nenez]

Nice guys may make a slower start but they always finish first in the long run.

Stay nice, be nice, be a winner. All us girls love you nice guys. I just wish i could find one.

Nenezxxx

[Shidoshi]

Dre_7 I can work with what you've just posted. People assume I'm saying that you need to be a jerk to be successful with women, and that's not my position at all. With the exception of some very troubled women, it isn't the jerk that's attractive, it's his "confidence." I'm also taking into consideration the fact that everyone has different tastes, so there is no definitive example of what a jerk is. A jerk is many things.

So I take it you used to think that being a nice guy was the way to go?

Yes, and it didn't mean I allowed myself to be trampled on, I just didn't know women. I didn't impose my self at all, I kind of let her take the leading role to an extent. That turned out to be a big turn off for many, many women (this is the short version mind you). I had to learn to appreciate my desires to be "assertive" at times. That doesn't mean I abused women or anything of the sort, but I became comfortable with the masculine traits that are indicative of being a man. There's a reason why women like assertive guys, I'm not making this stuff up, and I'm not brainwashed by society and the media.

 

Some guys are afraid to be sexual with women, they're afraid of their own sexuality. I think that also plays a part in why some guys are consistently treated as "friends" rather than "boyfriends." I'm not saying you should be overtly sexual towards women or even sexual in terms of actively trying to get sex. Sexuality is more than intercourse, but it's very important.

And the truth is, it really doesn't matter what you are because your personality really determines the outcome of your life. In essense, be who you are, and get what you deserve... So to each his (or her) own...

Oh I agree whole heartedly.

 

Do you see anything in this post that implies you shouldn't be a nice guy?