Dealing with Christians

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

Melrich, I do care about the facts, and the truth. Please don't make it sound like I don't. All my arguments have been scientifically based, and none have come from religious or other forms of proganda.

[melrich]

Melrich, I do care about the facts, and the truth. Please don't make it sound like I don't. All my arguments have been scientifically based, and none have come from religious or other forms of proganda.

 

I_Love,

 

I am happy to be proven wrong (well I'm not really because the implications of what you are saying are horrendous) and have asked you to direct me to the research you refer me to.

 

For my own interest I googled up "racist gene" and got about 20 hits...all were from either extremist forums or far right tabloid newspaper publications.

 

I went further and researched the latest publications I could find from the Behaviour Genetics crowd and could find nothing that even hinted at racism or homophobia being gentically inheritable.

 

I wonder if you are not confusing the genetics of behaviour?

[cichlid]

I didn't read all you're post but I am a conservative and religious Catholic and my only problem with homosexuals is not in them being that way. I know they can't help it and all. But! I do see something wrong with them doing homosexual acts. Yes...my thoughts are weird. But I will not nag at them about it if I do know a homosexual. Just because I think it's a sin, doesn't mean I'm going to lecture people into believing what I believe. As long as they keep their opinion about it all to theirselves, I will respect them and do the same. Notice how I didn't comment giving you reasons why I think it's wrong.

[pianoguy]

For the last time- I did not come here to discuss whether homosexuality is a sin or not. However, it has become abundantly clear to me that my thread has become hijacked and this is what people would rather talk about. Very well.

 

thereforeeee, Cichlid Chick, I want you to list all the reasons you think there is something wrong with homosexual acts. If you refer to the Bible, I want verse and chapter numbers. I will demonstrate why your reasons are groundless.

 

Incidentally, I am also Catholic. Weird, huh?

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

Piano guy, the only concern that I have is that it is not just Christians who are opposed to homosexuality. As I said before, most people in the world disagree with the practice, and most people in the world are not Christian. Even many evolutionists disagree with homosexuality, and taht is why I emphasized evolutionary arguments that could be used against homosexuality.

 

YOu are free to do what you want. But I just want to make you aware that there are many people who disagree, regardless of whether they are Christian or not.

[Jinx]

not just Christians who are opposed to homosexuality. As I said before, most people in the world disagree with the practice, and most people in the world are not Christian.

 

I want you to list all the reasons you think there is something wrong with homosexual acts. If you refer to the Bible, I want verse and chapter numbers. I will demonstrate why your reasons are groundless.

 

Not to take words out of the mouth of others but I do believe Pianoguy, due to the massive amount of Christian individuals who have claimed it is immoral and sinful wanted as he stated, reasoning word for word within the bible which claims homosexuality is a sin.

 

For myself (Which is the lesser of all questions posted), I'd be interested in the viewpoints and true reasoning for those who are not Christian or Christians without ANY biblical reasoning. I had posed a question about acts and double standards in my last post but unfortunately those who oppose all chose to peacefully ignore that question.

 

Even many evolutionists disagree with homosexuality, and taht is why I emphasized evolutionary arguments that could be used against homosexuality.

 

As for other viewpoints that scientists or any other beings of that nature have claimed in true research, Melrich asked for information on this. I too, would be very interested in seeing all this information. I haven't seen any links posted so I'll just assumed this hasn't been yet given unless it was over PM.

[RayKay]

Piano guy, the only concern that I have is that it is not just Christians who are opposed to homosexuality. As I said before, most people in the world disagree with the practice, and most people in the world are not Christian. Even many evolutionists disagree with homosexuality, and taht is why I emphasized evolutionary arguments that could be used against homosexuality.

 

YOu are free to do what you want. But I just want to make you aware that there are many people who disagree, regardless of whether they are Christian or not.

 

Um..whom are these "most people" exactly? If "most people" disagree, why are so many countries now legalizing same-sex marriages for one? I know my government here does not just decide to do it because a couple people support it...

 

There is much evidence that throughout history homosexuality is far from dissapproved of, and in fact embraced in the social and cultural norms of that society. I won't relist them all as pianoguy did a fine job prior to this.

 

No homosexuality is not conducive to procreation, but that is not to say evolutionists disagree with it either.....I am not even sure how that link was made.

 

I am SURE pianoguy is very aware that there are people whom probably do "not agree" with his lifestyle. I have yet to meet anyone gay who is blinded to the fact that there is disrimination and sometimes outright hostility and violence towards them as a group or as persons by people other than Christians as well. I don't think it was necessary to "make him aware".

 

For the record, there are also many Christians whom are not "against" homosexuality.

[RayKay]

Hey pianoguy,

 

I thought maybe I could bring this topic around and post on your original situation.

 

It's kind of funny, as when I read your post, I had a very similar situation this week, actually my boyfriend did, but your original post was eerily similar.

 

One of my bf's friends from university, now lives in the U.S. with his wife (she is a US citizen). Her entire family is incredibly racist. And well, she is too to a degree...thought not as "vocal" My bf does not like it at all of course, he does not really ever talk to them, and she has apparently toned it down, but she was one who often made inappropriate remarks and jokes. My bf is rather "shy" so would not say anything. Anyway, this week a mass email was forwarded to him - it was absolutely ridiculous and really sickening really...it was basically justifying racial profiling against muslims, and it was terrible. He showed it to me, was quite angry , and I really felt sickened by it. Of course my bf is not one to be confrontational on this matter...but I really wish he would respond as you did to your penpal in a sense.

 

Your "sarcastic remarks" to people who believe homosexuality is wrong is probably your outlet right now, it feels good temporarily as it is "payback" in a sense. On your pen pal, on your friend, on anyone else who you have met who is against it. Instead of being able to risk losing your penpal, or your friend by telling them how you really feel, and how what they believe really affects you, it is easier to take it out on others whom you don't risk losing..

 

I know it feels good, and sometimes its even right in my opinion. Having a gay brother, I have my limits too. My brother will make jokes which is fine...and I mean he even makes jokes about "breeders" but the tone is fun, lighthearted and I know they are not meant cruelly in any way - hard to explain but its different. What does offend me is when people whom I know (or don't) make jokes or comments that are clearly offensive and meant in a cruel way. I too will often reply sarcastically, often when they don't know about my brother, I will tell them I will have to repeat it to him, as I am sure he will "love it". I get VERY turned off by things like that..to me it is just like racist comments, sexist ones. I mean, jokes are jokes, for me its the intent at times. If I know the person however...I hav a calmer approach I will explain in the next paragraph.

 

I think...you need to take the higher road. It sounds like you have a great family who loves and supports you...you know, remind yourself you are loved, a person. If someone makes remarks, or you hear comments...take higher ground. Cut out the sarcasm, and sinking to the same level. Be calm, and put your opinion/argument forth calmly, respectfully. If they attack you verbally....the best offense is civility.."I am sorry you feel that way towards your Lord's other creations, I can respect that your opinons differ..etc etc". Accept that there are some whose opinions will NEVER change, due to their upbringing, stubborness, experiences, denial. But if you can leave the conversation with a normal heart rate, and feeling good about how you handled it....you are the winner

 

As for the penpal....write her a letter telling her how that event made you feel, if you want to keep her friendship, be honest about it, but also let her know that it hurt you & offended you, and it is not within your own beliefs to feel that way. She may not agree, but a true friend will accept you for whom you are, plain and simple. It is possible her, or Bob, will never understand your sexuality, but that does not mean they cannot be respectful of it, and accept you as whom you are....you never know, in friendship they may realize that you truly ARE just like them, and that you have more in common than they think...and maybe over time their views will soften too...people sometimes do change with age, and experiences

 

Honestly, Bob sounds like a pretty good guy to me as a friend. I know its hard for you, since what he sees as sin is pure for you, but I think you will find that same thing occurs with other differences between people too...and it sounds like while he still has his beliefs, he does like you for YOU, and accepts you for you. And honestly, if he does not think you are going to hell it shows he sees you as a person, and it also shows that as much of a sin he thinks it is.....it is one that is forgivable by his and your God, since you are not going to go to Hell. Right? From your description I think he really does accept you, but battles with his own conflicting views, which is understandeable, but he does realize you are a person, and accepts you for you....does that even make sense?

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

Well I remember reading in a news paper article that 53% of Canadians believe that homosexuality is "abnormal" but one certainly couldn't argue that 53% of Canadians are Christian. The point is that why does everyone only focus on Christians who against homosexuality, and not on others who are against homosexuality???

 

Actually, my best friend is bisexual. But I still like him as a friend. I think that you can accept the person but not accept what they do. My best friend will always be my best friend, but I will never accept his bisexuality.

[RayKay]

Well I remember reading in a news paper article that 53% of Canadians believe that homosexuality is "abnormal" but one certainly couldn't argue that 53% of Canadians are Christian. The point is that why does everyone only focus on Christians who against homosexuality, and not on others who are against homosexuality???

 

 

Be careful with polls. A poll does not accurately reflect everyone in the population - it reflects the people that were polled.

 

Nor is 53% (with percentage error rates as well) "most people". And what was defined as "abnormal" - just because they can say it is "abnormal" does not mean that also means they "disagree with it". I can say that someone born with a certain disfigurement is not "normal" but I don't disagree with it, or who they are, or that they exist, or refute that it was NOT their choice to be born that way.

 

Furthermore, what are you basing "Christian" on, since many religions are considered Christian as long as they accept Christ, from Catholics to Anglicans. Also, many people may have been raised Christian but not practice, or been baptised, and not believe. A lot of people also whom do not practice, consider themselves Christian.

 

No one is saying that Christians are the only ones that do not believe in homosexuality, the poster is referring to Christians due to HIS circumstances with people whom DO refer to their faith as it being sinful, he goes to Catholic school where other students are against homosexuality due to what they learn IN CHRISTIANITY. Hence the whole basis of this post. The original poster is dealing with it in a Christian environment, and so is asking about that environment and with the people he KNOWS whom cite the Bible for homosexuality being wrong.

 

I don't think that people focus only on Christians against it, but I think this thread was started DUE to Christians he knows against it, and when people cite the bible as reason it is a sin, it would be a Christian who probably thereforeeee believes it....

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

My close friend is bisexual (meaning he likes guys...) and even though I disagree with his choice, we get along very well. I accept him as my close friend, even though I may disagree with his choice.

 

I think the poster can get a long with Christians, and others, who disagree with his choices. YOu don't have to agree with someone to care about them. I don't agree with my friend, but I still care about him. The poster should not worry about Christians or others...he can still make friends and get along with lots of people, regardless of what they might think of his choice

[cichlid]

It's not natural. We have the genders for a reason. There that's my reason. I can't bring my religious views into the picture you said so it just messes my opinion of the matter. Why is it you want my opinion but you only want part of it? So you can change it? So you can tell me wrong? HAHAHAHA! Maybe I shouldn't have replied to this in the first place and should have ignored it.

 

I have a friend that does this sort of thing...it irritates me because I have my opinions and don't like to debate them...he does.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

Anyway, I hope that Pianoguy can make lots of friend, and be close to many people care about him, regardless of whether or not they agree with his lifestyle, and regardless of whether they are CHrsitian or not

[RayKay]

My close friend is bisexual (meaning he likes guys...) and even though I disagree with his choice, we get along very well. I accept him as my close friend, even though I may disagree with his choice.

 

I think the poster can get a long with Christians, and others, who disagree with his choices. YOu don't have to agree with someone to care about them. I don't agree with my friend, but I still care about him. The poster should not worry about Christians or others...he can still make friends and get along with lots of people, regardless of what they might think of his choice

 

I agree with that. If you read the post where I talked about his actual situation, I said exactly that - that sometimes friends do't always agree with everything, but they can still accept us as friends, and we still accept them as friends. The conflict only arises when someone would use those views against the other person in a hurtful way, like there have been times he experiences.

 

There will always be people in your life whom you will find have different views - they can be family, friends, coworkers. But that does not preclude friendship...or at the very least - respect.

[RayKay]

Anyway, I hope that Pianoguy can make lots of friend, and be close to many people care about him, regardless of whether or not they agree with his lifestyle, and regardless of whether they are CHrsitian or not

 

 

I hope so too, and it sounds like pianoguy does have people in his life whom care about him, whatever their views anyway

[RayKay]

It's not natural. We have the genders for a reason. There that's my reason. I can't bring my religious views into the picture you said so it just messes my opinion of the matter. Why is it you want my opinion but you only want part of it? So you can change it? So you can tell me wrong? HAHAHAHA! Maybe I shouldn't have replied to this in the first place and should have ignored it.

 

I have a friend that does this sort of thing...it irritates me because I have my opinions and don't like to debate them...he does.

 

The it's not "natural" argument however is one that just is not credible in light of all the evidence contrary in this world that shows homosexuality is indeed quite "natural".

 

Humans are not the only ones who practice homosexuality. Dolphins, bonobos (which are a primate that are VERY sexual both homosexually and hetero, also practice lots of oral...interesting animals), there are birds that on occasion partner with other malr birds, dogs, etc etc. There have been numerous observations of homosexual behaviour in wilflife - so is that "not natural" too? Would you see all those animals are making an active "choice" to be homosexual, or is it part of their makeup perhaps?

 

In some of the species, homosexual behaviour is used to foster bonding, and keep down disagreements and conflicts. In bonobos for example, there are frequent displays of sexual activity between females & other females, and males & other males - they seem to use it to foster the community of the pack. It does not preclude them from having more members being born into their pack, yet they all display these tendencies.

 

Perhaps humans are no different. Perhaps there are reasons some were not meant to procreate. Perhaps they are the ones in past tribes fostered the bonding in the pack, or were the caregivers. Perhaps they were the ones that cared for children that had lost their parents, or perhaps they were the ones chosen as soldiers to increase the bonding amongst the soldiers. Perhaps we will never know why, as long as we continue to see it as abnormal and not natural. My little brother, whom is gay came out when he was 18...but my family had known since he was just a toddler he had tendencies that were more homosexual, his whole life we had "known"...not by his "actions" but whom he was, how he acted. One of the biggest clues was just how damn good he treated his girlfriends in junior high and high school - as friends - when most guys that age were hardly such great relatonship material/friends. So he "tried" to be straight, for years...but it was not natural for him. It would be far more unnatural to go against his feelings that he has always had, and have a "fake" life than to accept that baing gay for him IS natural.

 

If we have the "genders for a reaon" I assume you mean procreation? What occurs then if someone is born a hermaphrodite? What if someone is born missing parts of their reporductive organs and are infertile? What about those whom are infertile?

 

Part of having opinions is being able to discuss them...it does not mean someone is trying to "change your opinion" but trying to understand them. Your "reasoning" may be religious, but explain WHY its religious - what in the religion expressly forbids it? What makes the religion say its not natural? IN my opinion, the better you are able to debate your views, the more people can respect where you arre coming from with them. I don't have to agree with you, but I can respect then that you have researched the subject, and made your own opinion up for yourself.

[nena305]

I got to a Chirtian school and everyone in my sko0l is some Chirtian Freak its driving me nuts b-cuz just like 3 months ago i was no longer confused i knew im over the rian bow a lesbian and pple in my sko0l like guys try to get with me and stuff but i duno how to let evey one know im NOT str8 and if i do come out to them ..will they kick me out the sko0l ..i mean dont Chirstians have respect ..respect is to agreeing to dissgree im also Gothic .. i ofdnt dress .like it onlii sometimes but i do act talk and cut myself but t jsut cuz i am dosent meanim evil im a good person relly GOTH culture is NOT anti-Christian. Just because someone is not YOUR religion it DOESN'T mean they are anti-anything. Many of the gothic songs and motifs are not SATANIC. Some people believe otherwise. Often the music is about emotions or spirituality. Gothic music is not based to any specific religion. Some people identify themselves as VAMPIRES and wear fangs or colored contact lenses. This doesn't mean they are 'gothic'. Some people also practice WITCHCRAFT ("WICCA") - this DOES NOT mean they are gothic. It COULD mean they practice a different religion than you do. No ONE religion is the only correct religion.

[pianoguy]

I can't bring my religious views into the picture you said so it just messes my opinion of the matter. Why is it you want my opinion but you only want part of it?

Please read my posts all the way through before you reply so as to avoid looking stupid. I said you could appeal to Scripture all you wanted, I just wanted verse numbers and chapter numbers so I could look it up in the Bible.

So you can change it? So you can tell me wrong?

Well, that would be great, but I really just wanted you to think about your position more critically and consider other viewpoints. I don't think you've thought this issue through very thoroughly, nor do you realize how much it affects people.

I have a friend that does this sort of thing...it irritates me because I have my opinions and don't like to debate them...he does.

Maybe this is because you don't have good reasons for your opinions. We're all entitled to our opinions, but just because we believe something doesn't make it true. It's the reasons that make it true, and logical people base their opinions on the facts, not on emotions as I believe you are doing. Feel free to prove me wrong and submit some reasons. If your opinion is as solid as you believe there must surely be a number of good reasons for it. I think RayKay has effectively demonstrated that the 'it's not natural" argument doesn't hold water.

[pianoguy]

Thanks for all the advice on the penpal and Bob.

 

Bob really is a great friend, and I never snap at him or am sarcastic to him. I would never break off our friendship over something like this, we've been through too much for that. I think maybe someday he will understand my sexuality, but even if he doesn't he will always accept me and I just need to be at peace with that. It still hurts when he says things about it being a sin, but I just need to be calm and say why it's not a sin and accept his decisions on the matter.

 

The reason I can tolerate Bob and not the penpal is because I feel that Bob at least is TRYING- he is respecting my view and trying to see my side of the matter, wheras the penpal is extremely self-absorbed (stop yelling at me!) and doesn't seem to be making any effort to understand where I am coming from. This is why I feel like ditching her.

 

It seems to me that most people won't listen to others, even a few folks in this forum. People basically make up their minds based on emotion, find people who agree with them, and dismiss everyone else. When someone intelligent disagrees with them they put their hands over their ears and pretend they don't exist.

 

Bob and myself at least try to understand other's views, even if we don't agree with them. I was once extremely religious myself (I'm still extremely spiritual- I play the piano after all) so I know where those people are coming from. I just wish others would at least hear me out. That's all I ask.

[FoxLocke]

Back to the topic. I'm christian, and I do believe homosexuality is a sin, because that is clearly stated in Bible. There's no way you can explain it away.. that's just how it goes. If someone wants the passages, I can give them. It doesn't look like many would want them here though, since this is about how to deal with people, not about homosexuality being a sin or not.

 

Well, you are wrong. It is NOT clearly explained in the bible, not by a long shot. The passage you are referring to is a group of ravenous men who want to rape two other men. How can you POSSIBLY compare that to two men or two women in a monogamous loving relationship?

Furthermore, in that same passage, Lot offers to hand over his daughters to the thugs instead of the men because it was more "Natural." So, since when is rape and abuse of women "natural?" We have a man in the bible who was willing to hand over his daughters to the pleasure of marauding thugs...

 

The moral of the story is this. The bible is not a literal interpretation of ANYTHING. It is meant to be read with a discerning eye, case closed end of story. To you homosexuality might be a sin, but to someone else ONLY gay people will goto heaven.

The bible is thousands of years old. Do you believe, for the last second, that certain scriptures and books have not been tweaked, revised, or rewritten to suit certain sectors of the ancient Christian church? Do you believe that the bible has gone completely UNTOUCHED for the latter part of 2000 years? Well, if you do I wish I had that much faith in human kind.

 

For the record I am gay AND I am a Christian too. I, like you, at onetime, felt that being gay was a sin. I felt it was so horrible that I even tried committing suicide at the age of 17. I spent years being depressed and trying to change, until I finally decided to embrace all aspects of myself...including being gay. And you know what? I am much more happier and blessed now than I ever was before. I feel completely natural and intune with who I am as a person. I see, or feel, no sin in that.

 

In response to Pianoguy's overall thread I agree, but I think there is a more productive way to go about it. I don't want to debate anyone about the way I was born. I no longer care how ultra conservative christians feel. At one point African Americans and women were third class citizens because they weren't white and male. It is only a matter of time when gay people receive all of our rights, and the views expressed by so many right wing evangelicals will just be another ugly vestige of the past. I do pray that the day will come.

Otherwise, I am going to continue to be happy being me...And I am not going to hell either.

[bandnerd]

Hi. I'm a Christian, and a conservative. I support most conservative ideas, EXCEPT for their position on homosexuality. The problem with a lot of Christians is that they accept whatever their pastor says as truth. The only absolute truth comes from the Bible, and even then you have to be sure you are interpreting it correctly. If you would actually take time to look into the Bible, you would find that the ONLY place that says "homosexuality is a sin" is in Leviticus, right next to the verse that says eating pork is a sin. Jesus says later in the New Testament that the Levitical laws no longer apply. Obviously, most Christians eat pork, and don't think twice about it. There are other places in the Bible that could be interpreted to mean homosexuality is wrong, but they could also be interpreted otherwise. The Bible is very clear in defining sin as a choice, and I don't remember ever choosing to be gay. I can't imagine anyone thinking "hey I think I'll be gay. It would be fun to be part of a widely hated minority." No one chooses to be gay, so it can't be a sin.

[KIDD]

As a gay male myself.. I believe that god made me the way I am. I mean seriously, if it was a choice.. why would I choose it since so many people are against homosexuality?? It doesn't make sense.Personally, I think people take religion too seriously. This is my personal opinion & belief.I do howeverbelieve there is a god or a higher force than us, I just can't believe most of the stuff in the bible. It seems like a fairy tale book written by man. I believe there is a god but some of that stuff in the bible doesn't make sense. Like masturbating for example.. how can masterbating be a sin?? I really see no harm in it?Mostly I believe most of the bible was written by man to scare people & stop them from getting out of control back in the day.To have some self control in society.Also I read something a long time ago that in some tribes in Africa, some of the tribes actually worship gay people & alot are comfortable with them..

[kere]

Pianoguy, I think your on some kind of crusade to save the gay world!!!....more power to you!!! I have read you post and the responses, some have raised my eyebrows abit. The reason I like this site is I can say whatever I feel and expect that my feelings will be validated or atleast respectfully corrected.

 

You have admitted that you are angry...I will not debate that, you have proven that very clearly....but my question to u is why are you angry and with whom??

 

Another question ...why do u ask for ppl's opinions only to shut them down??? (Don't get me wrong... I feel you...I am a lesbian and have to deal with all the problems that come with that.) But try to accept ppl's opinions, you don't have to agree or even understand but don't make rude remarks or quick comebacks to undermind their opinions which u urself asked for!!!!

 

I understand how you feel because I feel the same way. My advise to you...you cannot change the world, u just have to live in it. ppl do have diff opinions and attitudes toward ppl like me and you...what are we gonna do????.. Allow our anger to take controll of us while ignoring the real issue here??

 

Don't suggest that those on this forum who don't agree with your believe is unintelligent....This is a good place please don't disrespect that.

 

I understand that your angry and with good reasons....I know what that feels like. My advisee b4 you use your big words to slam someone else's opinion.....find another way of expressing yours. Ask the right questions if u want the right answer.

 

Kere

[UT]

I'm just gonna post an interesting link here. especially for those who are

[gogol]

I always feel this need to start fighting with people over the issue and part of me thinks that I should just accept that these people think differently than I do, even if it is an idiotic way of thinking.

 

I read your post, and took particular offence to this claim you made.

Am I a Christian? Yes, I am.

 

Just because I follow something that you do not does not make it "idiotic".

 

While I symphatize your situation, I cannot help but find it hypocritical that you call a conservative Christian idiotic because he does not understand how you feel when all the while you do not understand how he/she feels.

 

You may believe it or you many not believe it, but for many Christians, their faith springs a spiritual feeling within them. Im cannot say wheather or not you understand this, but it is true (I experience it myself). As a result, your feelings are really no different than a spiritual Christian's.

 

Not all Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some will read the Bible more literally than others.

 

 

 

Now, to respond to your question...

 

One easy response to someone that says you'll go to hell if you are gey is this: "No one knows the fate of our souls except God Himself". Its easy to remember, simple, and according to Christian doctrine, its true.

 

 

One suggestion I have is, don't throw out the "don't judge others" defence. In my experience, this does nothing to aid the defendent's argument. In fact, it usually just agrivates the person "judging" you.

 

 

Also, it's a bad idea to make the "but God will forgive me" claim. This just makes it look like you're taking advantage of His mercy (which is clearly shown as being wrong in the book of Romans).

 

 

(not saying you've used these defence techniques, just supplying my opinion in cased you did/do)