Is physical separation the answer to work on a marriage??

[papillon]

Hi all,

Just desperately need advice on physically staying together or being apart. My husband and I have been having a tough time, and recently I found emails from an ex-girlfriend he has been keeping in touch with (and they're not emails you write to a married man), as well as some other women. When I confronted him about it, we of course got into a huge fight and I told him to get out of the house, I changed the lock etc.... He has since apoligized and realizes it was wrong on his part, and wants to work at things. I've asked him to come home and that if we are going to work on this then we should be together, but he has already put a deposit down on a 1 bedroom expensive apartment. He'll move in on Saturday, and right now has been in a hotel for a week. I just think this is a huge step for him to be taking, and if we are trying to work things out, I just feel him getting an apartment and having to furnish it and pay utilities etc... is just going to put us even further behind the eight ball financially. What I don't understand is he keeps saying he loves me and really wants to work on things, but really needs to get this apartment because he needs to know he can't be kicked out of his house, and would eventually like to see me move in with him. I can partly understand his rationale because he's from the UK and has only been here since May of 2004 (we've been married a little over a year) and we've been living in the condo I bought 5 years ago. He says that he feels like it's never been his home. But my answer to that is, when I'm done with school in 8 months, I'll be making more money, and we can look for a house together then. But that doesn't seem to be enough for him. He keeps calling me begging me to be understanding about him needing to get this apartment, but I just don't think he's acting like someone who wants to stay married, even though he says that's what he wants more than anything. Also, he finally agreed to do couples counseling, but doesn't want to right now because he's just too stressed with all that's gone on and needs to settle in his apartment first. Am I crazy here??? Does anyone understand what he's saying?? Should I stand my ground?? Am I being unreasonable by telling him that if we are to work on things, then we should be in the same house??? Please!!! Any insight from anyone would be greatly appreciated. I'm desperately trying to understand all of this. I feel like I'm going insane!!!

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

Papillon

[DN]

I don't blame him at all for getting an apartment. How would you like it if you got kicked out of your home, had no family to go to, and nowhere to live except a soulless hotel?

 

You think it is a huge step for him to be taking - well, kicking him out of the house was also a huge step.

 

Someone once said that home is a place that when you go there, they have to let you in. Well, you didn't let him in - and what you have done is destroyed his home. All that house is for him right now is a house that he used to live in - and that he could get thrown out of anytime that you get angry again. Now he has an apartment - he has a home, somewhere secure, where there is no one who can deprive him of it because she gets mad.

 

Try thinking of it from his point of view and you may understand why he is doing this.

 

You have a secure home - and you proved to him that he did not.

[confusedashell]

Ok, I can TOTALLY relate to your husband! Not on the email part but the part about being nervous and feeling like hes got no security. So dont worry about that. Hes in a new country and feels like you're holding all the cards in some way. Thats not a nice feeling for any man. I was constantly worried about what would happen if my wife did that. I'd have been screwed.

 

Well ok, he did a stupid thing. Something he should show you how sorry he is about but I dont think theres nothing that cant be resolved. But you need to show him that you wont use anything as an excuse to send him packing into a place he has no friends, family or security in. TALK TALK TALK. Dont shout, dont scream, TALK..calmy. Tell him how that hurt, tell him you cant take that. Hes either with you or not. And take it from there

[DN]

Another thing: be very careful about complaining about the expense of the apartment. If he gets the idea that your prime concern is money you may lose him altogether. Your priority should be putting the relationship back together.

[Beec]

I think the apartment is not the thing you should be concerned with. Why do you need him there? You have issues to work out, worry about the importaqnt core ones first. Then the other crap will take care of itself.

[GreatGuy]

First of all relax and breath. You need to be collected to deal with this, its alot going on and being emotionally governed will not help. He loves you for sure, but the fact that he did what he did, means that he may feel insecure about certain things....maybe the house thing.....maybe the fact that you are the home owner...and he may feel like he is not involved in any part of it. He is looking for something that maybe he is not getting right now at your home and instead of coming to you so you can work it out as adults(funny how we all revert to our unmet childhood needs), he got carried away with someone who took the time to make him feel like he was worth something....he was a man.

Well he was wrong, but I feel you shut him out by kicking him out of "your home"(maybe this is something you've seen your parents do). SO you too appear to have been a bit off. I am not judging anyone here, I just want you to take some responsibility and see how the two of you can move forwards. You love him, and you were hurt...and had to get back at him.....now you miss him(typical child hood behaviors).

Well relax, you;re a human just like me so you can pick yourself up and find a way to bring him back home. Take it slow ok?

Good luck!!

[papillon]

It's so hard to get the whole story down on paper. I didn't "kick" him out. When I first confronted him about these sexually charged emails, he said "it's not what you think" and then he got angry saying I was overreacting. Well for the men out there, if your wife was getting emails from a guy saying he wanted to "give her kisses up her beautiful neck" and "I miss you babe" and she was writing him emails saying she was "writing his name in her panties", and then told you it was nothing......I think you'd have a problem with that. The fact that he wasn't acknowledging his wrong-doings and wasn't remorseful and saying I was overreacting made me feel like it was definitely over. I couldn't make him stay if he wanted to, because he said he couldn't stay. So it's not as clean cut as me kicking him out. I thought he would have tried contacting me within a day, and when he hadn't I decided to change the locks. After I sent him an email at work telling him I was going to pack up his stuff because he obviously didn't want to reconcile, then he wrote back to me saying what he had done was wrong, how sorry he was and he'd have been horrified had I done the same thing, and that he wanted to work things out. I asked him to come home and that's when he said he put a deposit down on an apartment. So that's why I'm confused. Anyway, I'm rambling, just felt like I needed to add that.

[DN]

Does this former girlfriend who is writing to him live in the UK and was he replying in the same sort of way? Do you believe he actually cheated physically on you?

 

This is what you said in your first post:

 

When I confronted him about it, we of course got into a huge fight and I told him to get out of the house, I changed the lock etc....

 

Which is different to what you are saying now.

 

It seems to me, as Beec suggested, that your first priority should be to get the relationship sorted out and clear the air about that. Then you can negotiate about where to live.

 

You both appear to have handled this situation badly. But your main question was about his apartment - and I still think he is wise to ensure he has a place to go to if you decide to tell him to leave again. He has no sense of security about his home - and I still don't think you are acknowledging that. He has acknowledged your concerns and apologised for his behaviour. But he has a legitimate concern about what may happen the next time you have an argument and that is something you need to address.

[papillon]

No they haven't been physically together, I think she's in Brazil but please spare me saying it's not really infidelity if there was no physical contact. And yes he was replying in the same sort of way. As far as this goes:

When I confronted him about it, we of course got into a huge fight and I told him to get out of the house, I changed the lock etc....

....I was trying to describe the situation briefly. But yes now you have the details. I didn't realize that would matter so much when I first wrote. And I do understand what you're saying about the apartment, it's just that a lot of our stress in our relationship has been about money. He's incredibly in debt, which really translates into our debt, but I don't have a problem helping to get rid of it. I want to do all I can, because that's what couples do, or so I thought anyway. They help each other out. We've always disagreed on the effect either of our financial standing has on the relationship. If we go to buy a house, the bank will look at our finances collectively , not separately. AAaaagh, I'm getting away from the issue here. I was just trying to make a point. I see what you're saying about money and the apartment being a secondary issue, I was just saying with all of his debt I just feel like he's getting even deeper now, and it just doesn't have to be like that. Maybe I'm not making sense. It doesn't really matter because we've been talking and trying to make sense of all of this and he says he loves me and wants to make it work but he's still planning on communicating with her/them. Yes there was more than one, but SHE was the biggie. I don't know what to think anymore.

[DN]

Why does he apologise and say he understands why you are upset but insists on communicating with them more. That doesn't seem like he understands anything at all.

 

Have you asked him what he gets out of talking with these women like this. I agree that it is emotionally cheating.

 

I think you should get that issue cleared up before anything else. I don't think you can do anything to repair the relationship unless he promises to stop doing that and explains why he felt the need to in the first place.

[papillon]

I understand in a weird way why he was doing it, even though it breaks my heart. He says he would write to these women if we had a fight because he felt alone and depressed and it would make him feel good. He called it an ego boost. Plus our sex life has been nonexistant since December not because I haven't wanted to be intimate, on the contrary I've tried to initiate it but he didn't want any part of it. I just thought maybe he was depressed not working and all, and that's what he told me it was. Then when he started working in May, he became a different person, feeling much better about himself, but still didn't want to have sex because he just didn't feel right, that he felt self-conscious and that he wasn't even sure what the problem was. We've only been married a year, and he was definitely a sexual person when we were first together, I never would have guessed in a million years he of all people would have trouble with sex. He says he needed to talk to these women to feel like a sexual person, but I don't understand because I'm always the one telling him how sexy he is, how handsome I think he is, how cute, smart....etc.... I mean yes we definitely have our share of fights and then some, but we always seem to work it out or so I thought. It just doesn't make sense to me. He had said he would go to counseling together, but won't now because he says he won't be able to afford it because of the apartment. (even though I've offered to pay!!! how twisted is that!!!....Am I pathetic or what???) He also isn't convinced counseling will help, which I don't know if it will either, but I sure as hell want to try.....not sure why all of my writing isn't all purple....????

[papillon]

.....I'm supposed to be studying for a final right now, and my mind is just a million miles away.....I just can't focus....school just seems so insignificant right now....I hate this.... I should have joined the convent.....[kidding]

[DN]

What job did he have in the UK compared to what he has in the US - better or worse? Especially regarding status and financial income?

 

Did or does he have to depend on you for financial support? Do you earn more money than he does?

 

Does he have any friends here other than your friends?

 

Other than the internet, does he have any interests separate from yours?

 

Did he leave behind a fairly close family and a good network of friends?

 

Is you level of education better or worse than his?

[papillon]

..Oh yes, that's right, he wants to keep in touch with at least one of these women ...the main one, because they've been friends for so long....? He says he emailed her and told her what happened and she felt absolutely horrible and she'll be sure not to write anything like that in the future.... oh really?? And I'm just supposed to say..."well, ok then, I guess that's ok, as long as you both promise". He's really an incredibly sensitive, compassionate, and intelligent person, but sometimes, you'd swear he has no brain....I mean what was he thinking telling me that???

[papillon]

Wow, so many questions...Ok, well his education far exceeds mine. He's incredibly brilliant. Forensic archaeology is what he's trained in. Edinburgh University and some other university that's supposed to be really prestigious. He has a couple degrees. His other degree has to do with geology. He wasn't working when he came over here and hadn't been for a few years. He had been in Australia studying law actually right before we met....I know this is confusing....he went over there to be with a girl who broke up with him right before boarding his flight I guess, but he decided to just go and make the best of it. He was in Australia for 2 years, met another girl (she's not the one he's been writing to) who turned out to be extremely mentally unstable (i.e. tried committing suicide 3 times), he felt like he had to help her even after they broke up after 6 months, and they remained friends in his mind (not in hers, she wanted more) for the rest of those 2 years. Sorry, I'm getting off the subject...just trying to give you some background. Anyway, he came back to the UK, and then we met....(surprise)..ONLINE.....He wasn't working and wasn't feeling hopeful about finding work, and I was so the logical thing to do we both agreed was for him to come here if we wanted to be together. I don't doubt his motives for cominig here. He had a few friends back home, but most of his friends are in different parts of the UK (Ireland), Sweden, etc...He has a small family, ...mom and sister who are super people. He didn't think he was going to get a job here, and was feeling really hopeless, (he even bought a plane ticket home one night without us even talking about it....??!!) But the job he has now he says he would never have been able to get in the UK withouth at least 5-10 years experience. (He's a geophysicist) It's a great job, and he loves that he has a paycheck coming in, because he says he's never really had regular money coming in. Hard to believe I know, but his dad died when he was 19 and the money left to he and his sister was invested in real estate and I guess he's just been using that money. As an archaeologist, he says he just got paid in cash (not a check...weird huh???), and it was peanuts. He doesn't really have any friends over here, besides the people at work. I have a huge family and they all love him. You couldn't ask for a better family to marry into if you're relocating, I mean they've all embraced him with open arms. He's gone out a few times with my best friend's husband, but really doesn't make an effort to get together with him. He's kind of a solitary person. You would never know it though in a social setting. It's very strange. And he HATES social things. He says he just pours with sweat, but he fools everyone, because he always looks as cool as a cucumber, total politician working the room etc... you get the idea.

As far as his interests, yeah I'd say he has interests separate from mine. It's hard to say, because money's been tight, so it's not like we can just get up and go away for the weekend. But he loves going to the movies, which I could give or take, and he doesn't mind going by himself once in a while. He loves reading which I don't really, or at least not like he does. He's a voracious reader. As far as our educations are compared his is definitely better. As I've said I went back to school, and I thought of quitting because I felt like it was stressing us out, but I waited 2 years to get into this program, and it will only benefit us in the end...i.e. I'll be making a great salary. AND I only have 9 months left in this hideous program.

Ok, there you go,....hope it isn't too much for you.

[DN]

The reason for all those questions was to try to find out why he is acting as he is - no sex and talking to other women.

 

I wondered if he somehow felt less of a man because he is depending on you for his home and, to a certain extent, for his lifestyle. Could there be anything to that do you think? Is he assertive, or over-assertive, or does he give in to you most of the time.

 

When you have had arguments in the past what were they about and how were they resolved? Did one of you 'win' or did you negotiate and compromise? Try to answer based on what he might respond not based on what you think.

[papillon]

Bingo!!! I think you've hit the nail on the head. He has said before that he felt emasculated by not working, while I was going to school and working to support us. When we talked about how we were going to do this, him moving here and our life together, we knew he wouldn't be able to work for a while because of immigration stuff. He had said over and over when he got a work authorization permit, he would do whatever he could to bring in money. i.e. work at retail, bartend, etc... So that's what I thought he would do. Well when he got his work permit in November, he didn't really want to do just anything, which I can totally understand because of his education level, but we were having some pretty hard times financially, and I was busting my hump trying to go to school full time and work as close to full time as I could. He did help around the house which was great, but he was also pretty free with spending which would really set me off. Here I was working my butt off, and he would get upset with me for being upset with him buying a watch, or a DVD, or whatever....I guess typical married stuff. My main gripe was that he really wasn't going out of his way to get any kind of job just to bring in some cash. I told him I didn't even care if it was part time. Plus it would have been great for his mental state, because he was depressed. I know the work thing is especially touchy for men, but I just don't understand when oppurtunities would present themselves, (my brother looking for help in his company, other people offering potential job connections) he just didn't want it. He would say I just wanted him to be miserable doing something he didn't want to do for the rest of his life. My point was he could be busy doing something, anything (I even suggested volunteering) until he got the job offer he REALLY wanted. He's very sensitive and yes I'm sure I came accross as a real b----, but I totally take full responsiblity for all of my shortcomings, and I've told him this. When we would argue or fight in the past, the first thing he would do was to physically leave, or say I can't stay here anymore with you, and then just go off for hours. Then when he would come back, it was like nothing happened. I've always made it a point to apologize for my wrongdoings, but he's never been one to actually say he was sorry or admit he was wrong. That's why I nearly fell over when he wrote to me actually apologizing for writing those emails. When this all initally went down, he showed no signs of remorse or of being in the wrong. Am I making sense?? or am I just rambling??

[DN]

I am going to post a message I sent to somone on here once. I have posted it several times since for other people. It is about how to communicate what you want to a partner and there are some ideas in there that you might apply to your own relationship. Anyway, have a look and see if it helps. If it does then some more talk about your own particular issues may be of value.

 

Here goes:

 

"People move towards comfort and away from pain. So when you want someone to do something, particularly when you are in a relationship with some one it is much better to get what you want or get them to do what you want by making it about you rather than them.

 

When you talk about your relationship make sure you start by talking about the positive aspects as well as the negative, pay him compliments for what he did well. Then address the negative as problems to be solved by both of you working together to please each other rather than attack one another. No recriminations but a desire not to hurt again.

 

My advice is to ask him to talk with you about the relationship Do not say, "We need to talk". When guys hear that from girlfriends, they know what it really means is "I need to talk and you have to listen" and they run for the hills by either retreating into silence or start pushing back. So don't so that.

 

In general, if you say to someone: "You don't do (whatever)" this is perceived as an attack. But if you say, "When you do (whatever) it makes me feel good/wanted/warm and fuzzy/insert positive emotion of choice" then that is seen as a request for help - it is not an attack.

 

So when you are talking to him about what you want do so in a way that is not seen as an attack (pain) but in a way that makes him want to please you (pleasure).

 

Think about the things that you want from him, what you want him to do for you, and phrase them in a way that he will not see as a criticism but as a request. Don't say, in effect: "you are a bad boyfriend because you don't do this, or you do that!!" because that will cause him pain and he will react with anger. Instead, say, "I feel lonely and hurt when you say that (or do that)" That way you are not so much attacking him as asking him to help you by not hurting you.

 

Remember that if you push someone, physically or emotionally they will either withdraw from you or push back. So don't do that. Lead him, by example, into a new way of communicating: negotiate don't demand. Compromise, don't be unyielding. Talk rationally not emotionally about problems. Recognise that he has a point of view – he is not immature because it is not the same as yours. Ask him to help you put the relationship back where it was when you were both happy. Identify what makes both of you unhappy and work together to get those problems fixed."

[papillon]

Thankyou for that. It's good advice. I'm trying like hell.

[DN]

An example that you might use would be to say that when he talks to women on the internet it makes you feel inadequate and unloved instead of saying that he is a cheating, deceitful s.o.b. who should ship his butt back to England if he can't get his act together.

 

You might want to say the latter but it is more likely to get what you want if you say the former.

[papillon]

Thanks for all of your advice DN. I've said everything you're saying plus written emails to him as well,..how ironic. This is really personal, but just to give you an idea of how I'm communicating, I'm posting one of the emails I sent. If you're still online, please feel free to critique. I'm tough, I can take it. Anyway here it is. I just sent this today. I was responding to one he sent me telling me he understands if I need to rid my life of him:

[DN]

I think counselling is a good idea - but only if both partners are prepared to do it. There are any number of reasons why he may not want to -

 

he may feel he will be attacked.

 

he may feel that most counselors tend to take the woman's side and not the man's - that they are biased. This is not an uncommon perception amongst men.

 

He may well realise that his behaviour is unacceptable and doesn't want to be told that by a third party.

 

he may not want to talk about personal things to a stranger.

 

If he doesn't want to go to counseling, I don't think it is wise to say, or imply, that the relationship is over. Why can't you try working things out on your own. It's not impossible. My wife and I have had many issues in our marriage over the years that we have worked out on our own.

 

Beware of making, or at least seeming to make, ultimatums. That is not in the spoirit of ne gotiation and compromise.

 

I liked the comment about feeling crushed.

 

How long were you together after you first met before you got married? How did that work?

[papillon]

Really?? You and your wife have worked things out without a counselor?? Do you recommend any good books?? I bought the Dr. Phil one and have been reading it. It's mostly about changing your own behavior and how that in turn ultimately has an effect (hopefully positive) on your partner. As far as how long we've been together, that's just the thing. We haven't been together long enough really. We really kind of rushed into things. But we were working with an immigration lawyer, and she was giving us a timeline, I was starting school in the fall, we both felt 100% positive about one another after having been around the block a few times (we're both 34) and neither of us saw the point in waiting. We knew each other for 5 months before getting married. I definitely didn't pressure him, if anything he was the one who was eager to get me 'off the market' so to speak. It was really quite a whirlwind romance. I've said to him too that is one of the things that is against us, is how hard the year has been, with me being in school, the immigration stuff and him not being able to work, how all of this has affected us and then just the fact that we don't have a long history together to fall back on. Had we been together for a couple of years, I think we would have done much better with our circumstances, but I have to say all of my married friends have said this past year would have been incredibly stressful for seasoned veterans let alone newlyweds. I'd like to make a point too that my parents have a great marriage, complete with affection, laughter, bickering etc...(52 years), however my husband's parents not the case; no affection (except the birth of 2 children), not a family man at all. He actually hated his father....I also think that plays a part in how he sees himself. He had said to me once before when we were arguing and he wasn't working yet, "see?? my father is right, I am a loser, I'm not working, I can't support you"...etc... I of course was telling him he was wrong, and that's not true, and don't let your father's words win over you.

Another point too, his dad died when my husband was 19. They never got along. My husband's mother has attested to this. Incredibly sad actually. He doesn't really feel this has anything to do with his lousy image of himself, but I think it's totally related. His father used to say some pretty mean things to him as a kid. i.e. he was "poofy" for wanting to do gymnastics instead of rugby, he frowned upon him for not getting his uniform dirty when he did play rugby etc... you get the idea.

[DN]

Well, we managed without self-help books as well. But if you read something that helps then go for it.

 

Sounds as if he really does have some self confidence issues. Most men want to live up to their father's expectations and if he has did not, and still feels that he isn't, that could well be part of the problem. Be aware of that when dealing with this, but be careful that you don't let him think you are psychoanalyzing him - that will not work for you.

 

It may be that the reason he enjoys these on-line relationships with women he has never met is because they are somehow not 'real' to him, in the sense that he has any obligations to them or they to him. They make him feel as if he has friends, uncritical, not depending or asking him for anything but a friendship at a remove. They are 'safe' because he and they make no demands on each other.

 

I think it is time that you two had a talk. Set some rules as to procedure. For instance: one issue at a time. Take turns to bring up an issue. Negotiate and compromise until you have resolved it. No yelling, shouting or interrupting. You have to listen to each other. And you have to accept that any issue raised is valid and important.

 

You also need to agree at the outset that you both want the marriage to work because you love each other and are willing to do the work necessary to make that happen.

[papillon]

DN, thankyou for all of your advice and pearls of wisdom. I really appreciate it.