Male 40, considering divorce in sexless, strained marriage

[quiet_observer_guy]

I'm 40. Wife 45.

 

Been married for 16 years, dated for 2 before marriage.

 

2 kids. Boy 14, girl 10.

 

Have had sex 3 times since Christmas (now near end of June). 2 of the times were just near the new year. The other was about 2 months ago.

 

Had sex about 8 - 12 times the year before.

 

It may sound shallow, but it really upsets me that she won't have sex.

 

I don't think she is having an affair - that's not her style. She has just turned off Sex.

 

I need to know that she finds me attractive and, more importantly, wants to have sex with me. That a woman would want to have sex with me is a key element in my view of myself.

 

I am moderately overweight (~10-15%). I am a big guy, so I wear my weight reasonably well. I am slimming down, just in case this is the issue (it probably isn't, I have been up and down on the weight scale between normal and here before and it didn't cause a problem).

 

I think about divorce and separation and running away all the time.

 

Wife finds almost nothing I do satisfactory. There is almost nothing I do that she can't find to criticise.

 

My kids have complained that she criticises them constantly as well.

 

While her co-workers like her, and respect her work, they complain about her perfectionism as well.

 

I have found myself criticising my wife to my kids a few times (only after they bring up the subject). I try to not do it.

 

My brother-in-law (wife's sister's husband) says he is on the receiving end of the perfectionism in his relationship, too.

 

I am posting here to try to work through some of these issues and to reflect on the feedback.

 

I will be posting more elements of what is deteriorating in my marriage as you make points, and as I am able to write them.

[Hope75]

Have you and your wife considered counselling?

[Meow18]

I agree with Hope. Have you tried counseling? I think you should ask her to do marriage counseling or something together before making any huge decisions to divorce.

[DN]

Do you still love her enough to make an effort to save the marriage?

 

Do you think she loves you?

 

Is she aware of the problem at all?

 

Do you think she would agree to counselling if she knew the marriage is in jeopardy?

 

Have you talked to her about this problem and told her how you feel. If yes, did she listen?

 

Have you considered all the implications; financial, social, emotional, impact on children, etc. of a divorce. Would you ask for physical custody of the children?

 

Have you talked to her about her critical attitude and perfectionism?

[sidehop]

I don't care what anyone says but I love the show Oprah. I was watching it one day & talked about married couples just like yourself who had barely any sex...conflict when it comes to sex and one couple had no sex almost since marriage and have been living like brother & sister.

 

What really came down to & I found this very interesting is that they needed to be 'reconnected' with their soul. They didn't exactly go through a normal marriage counseling but went through a special school to find the love and passion that a lot of married people have lost over the years.

 

They mentioned a lot of times it has to do with everyday stress and responsibilites with children, work and other things that basically turn off 'sex' and the desire to be close. It showed how one husband complained about his wife how she doesn't want to have sex when he shows affections towards her...but her complaint was he never helps her around the house. I know it sounds obvious but it's matter of communication that the two were missing or simple misunderstanding. Three couples that were on changed as if they met for the first time...not only their sex life changed but also their passion grew stronger and they felt 'being closer' then ever before.

 

I've never been married so I can't say what should be done, etc but seeing people who go through divorce and what they're unhappy about it seems to me like they all share common problems. If you two can go through counseling I think it'll be great but I know it's not always going to work.

 

If I was in your position to be honest, I would sit down and think about what it was like meeting her in the beginning...what she loved doing...and try to bring back the passion you two had...

 

I wish you two the best & hope everything works out for you.

[heloladies21]

Whatever you do, don't just sit on the situation. You'll bottle it up and one day explode leaving everyone in the dust. Your wife deserves a chance to try and work things out. Talk to her about this.

[quiet_observer_guy]

Have you and your wife considered counselling?

 

Yes, we tried counselling a few years ago.

 

I suggested it, and my wife reluctantly agreed.

 

My wife made us stop going when the cousellor started to tell her what she could do to be a better partner, and changes she could make in her conduct. She dismissed counsellors as having become counsellors because they had something wrong with themselves to begin with - so why would she listen to them...

 

She then said the point of agreeing going to couselling was to get me to change, not to hear criticism about her.

 

I made a list of all the requests that had been made or suggested by my wife and the counsellor, and did them. I made a checklist so i wouldn't forget and did them for about 8 months. I then reviewed the changes in conduct I had made with my wife and she agreed I had done everything on the list, except one.

 

The only one that I have fallen short on (or at least I was told I fell short on) was the romance side of things. My wife has said I am not romantic enough (i think her response is subjective).

 

I have been through every book i could find on the subject, i have been through every website on the subject of romance and have tried everything that was within financial reason (holidays to exotic locations have not been on the list so far).

 

My wife's sisters have all publicly said (multiple times) that they wished their husbands were as romantic and considerate as me. My wife has said to me afterwards that I'm only nice when other people are around. I counter(ed) by pointing out that most of the examples of niceness and romance she had shared with her sisters and mother, not me. I haven't talked about the stuff I do for her since the first time she criticised me for "showing off" around her family.

 

I do a lot of work around the house.

 

I don't do some projects around the house (like painting) because the work I do is never up to her standards, no matter how hard i try. When she is working on a project I generally look after the kids and make sure there are fresh goodies (appetizers, sweet things, beverages, gourmet coffee, etc.) for her and her sister and mother (who do paint well enough - but no man ever does...).

 

I do laundry, but even after 16 years I never quite sort the clothes into the correct divisions, and when I try to iron clothes, she will tell me to stop it because it is irritating her because she thinks I am slow at it (time example: it takes me 7-10 minutes to do a man's dress shirt)

[quiet_observer_guy]

Do you still love her enough to make an effort to save the marriage?

 

I don't know. My feelings are somewhat suspect, right now. That is part of the reason i am here. To try to work out what i am really feeling.

 

Do you think she loves you?

 

I don't know.

 

She does considerate things for me on many occasions (buys me clothing, makes sure stuff I may need for a trip or activity [outing with the kids, meetings, community or school events] is ready), but it is more like a "working arrangement" than and expression of love. I feel like she still values me as a co-parent, but not as a husband or lover.

 

Is she aware of the problem at all?

 

Yes. I spoke about the iffy nature of our relationship the other night. I said I was trying to keep things in a polite holding pattern until some of the items in our collective to-do list break, and that I wanted to see if things would start to turn around a bit over time.

 

She agreed that things were iffy, and that she was also trying to maintain a polite and argument free environment in the house (it has been argument light, but there is an underlying tension and criticism tone occurring).

 

The kids feel it and are aware of it as well. My 14 year old son has an awareness that this could end in divorce.

 

Do you think she would agree to counselling if she knew the marriage is in jeopardy?

 

No - see above answer on counselling.

 

Have you talked to her about this problem and told her how you feel. If yes, did she listen?

 

I have not opened up completely.

 

If I criticise her for anything but the most minute thing, it will unleash a torrent of criticism of everything I have done wrong in our lives together, everything she knows about that i did wrong before we met, and criticism of my family members and their faults, especially where they may mirror some perceived shortcoming of mine.

 

I learned quite some time ago to be very circumspect in my dealings around anything that might involve me being unhappy or criticising her.

 

Have you considered all the implications; financial, social, emotional, impact on children, etc. of a divorce. Would you ask for physical custody of the children?

 

I am mapping that out right now.

 

Again it is part of the process of examination that i am undertaking.

 

I would ask for joint custody - 1 week with her, 1 with me.

 

I expect my son would end up living with me most of the time because he is often on the receiving end of my wife's criticism (he's messy and disorganized - he's a 14 year old male...). She invests him with many of the same negatives she uses to describe me. He is also a man which makes him suspect to begin with.

 

Have you talked to her about her critical attitude and perfectionism?

 

I have addressed it a few times - very gingerly

 

I have also cited her co-worker's thoughts on her perfectionism - carefully

[DN]

It is a common trick of people when faced with criticism by a partner to turn the subject and criticise back - don't let her do that. Tell her you are aware of her problems with you and have tried your best to address them Now, if she has any intention of saving the marriage she must listen to you and make an effort to understand and make her contributions to the marriage. Refuse to be diverted.

 

She has a very controlling personality in my opinion, and frankly, part of the problem is you, because you have allowed her to behave like this and failed to stand up to her properly. You walk on eggshells so as not to annoy her and no one should have to live like that.

 

My advice, based on what you have said and the obvious distress you feel in the marriage, is to simply say that, unless she makes significant efforts to help put the marriage on a proper footing, without interference or the opinions of other family members, then you will have no alternative but to leave. Mean it and do it.

[Spirits Away]

What are the things your wife complains about most often? Do you find it to signify her unsatisfaction towards life?

[quiet_observer_guy]

-- Oprah reference cut--

 

They mentioned a lot of times it has to do with everyday stress and responsibilites with children, work and other things that basically turn off 'sex' and the desire to be close. It showed how one husband complained about his wife how she doesn't want to have sex when he shows affections towards her...but her complaint was he never helps her around the house.

 

I've seen the same kinds of programs.

 

I've read those books.

 

Each time I ratchet up my involvment, or the kid's involvment in cleaning and doing household stuff, the bar keeps getting raised and the demands for a cleaner and better house go higher.

 

(just for the record - I go to almost all the kid's stuff. i take time off work, i drive, i am a parent leader and chaperone. my wife doesn't much like interacting with people in public events, so i go to all that sort of stuff and have to deal with any outside arrangements or interaction with the school or lessons, or friend's parents)

 

I haven't been able to reach the place where she says it's good enough - when we do, it is only for a day or two, and she says that she is so tired she needs to sleep to catch up on her lost sleep from the other days she was up cleaning or ironing until late. Then in a couple of days, stuff will fall into a little disarray, and the kids lessons and practices, and other activities will see the house get normally messy or some laundry build up and then excuse is "look how far behind on everything I am".

 

One spring/summer/fall a couple of years ago, I said to myself: "I'm going work longer than her every single day."

 

I worked, I worked, I worked.

 

You see, when I just do day-to-day maintenance and cleaning, I am being lazy and leave all the project work and larger stuff for her to do - "why don't you ever take the initiative to build things or make the house better?". If i do all the day to day cleaning i get criticised for just doing a "surface job" and "when was the last time you wiped base boards, top of door frames, sorted clothes, reorganised closets", etc. When I do that too, i get criticised for not paying attention to the long term maintenance of the house, and building it up and re-decorating so it is "nicer" (it's pretty nice right now...)

 

So that year I did all the projects and ideas I had for our house (she was good with the list of things i proposed - it was not unilateral). I worked on my checklists of cleaning stuff (I had made lists since we were married of all the things she said i didn't do, so that i could do them)

 

I re-did our whole backyard: Rebuilt the deck (sanded and recycled most of the old wood), fence, sidewalks. Built more play stuctures for the kids (very elaborate play structures - they were criticised as wasteful and unneeded [the kids like them]). Made raised garden beds. Wheelbarrowed in over a ton of new dirt, gravel, and substrata for all the stuff. Built a new shed.

 

No matter how long I worked, she always had to work a half hour longer than me. Except for a couple of nights where she literally passed out from exhaustion. We ended up still being awake and working at 2 am on works nights untili would call it quits - she would then do stuff 'til 2:15am - 2:30am

 

 

 

It got to the point where in the fall she complained that she never wanted to do "that much project work again".

 

It still wasn't enough to change the direction of the marriage.

[quiet_observer_guy]

What are the things your wife complains about most often?

 

The state of the house - it can never be clean enough.

 

My attitude toward her - I am never considerate enough. No matter how hard I try I can't seem to ever say the right touchy-feely mushy Oprah stuff that women seem to magically know how to say. I have read books and books on "female emotional language" in an effort to get the right words to say.

 

Mistakes I have made - We were tight (not desperate, just down to the last $100 each month) financially for awhile. I ran a business that didn't succeed. Not a bankruptcy, but a winding down because I got a job offer that was good.

 

Character traits in my children that reflect what she perceives as negatives in me.

 

Do you find it to signify her unsatisfaction towards life?

 

I can't ever get a straight answer about what she would really like to do in life.

 

All she ever says is "It doesn't matter anyway, because I have to live life in the here and now."

 

I know she wants a "nice house", a "clean house", to "go on a few vacations" (but then won't agree to spend the money on the vacations because we are spending all the money on the house). She complains a lot about not getting to see the world, but won't stop doing stuff to the house in order to save enough to go on a vacation.

[quiet_observer_guy]

It is a common trick of people when faced with criticism by a partner to turn the subject and criticise back - don't let her do that. Tell her you are aware of her problems with you and have tried your best to address them Now, if she has any intention of saving the marriage she must listen to you and make an effort to understand and make her contributions to the marriage. Refuse to be diverted.

 

I suppose you are right

 

She has a very controlling personality in my opinion, and frankly, part of the problem is you, because you have allowed her to behave like this and failed to stand up to her properly. You walk on eggshells so as not to annoy her and no one should have to live like that.

 

My parents constantly fought. All the time. Still do. I hate it.

 

They will argue over the stupidest things all the time. I hate it.

 

I always thought that if they just listened and tried to go part way with each other that things could have been so much better in their marriage.

 

There was a song when I was younger (i hate to quote popular culture, but will anyway): Rosanna.

 

One of the lines is "Meet you all the way"

 

My sister at the time said (i don't know if her intepretation was correct) it was a play on "meet you half way". And that this person was committed enough to meet her "all the way".

 

I always thought it was the way to be in a relationship.

 

My Dad said to me once: "You seem to have no problems with mixing it up with people in politics or your business, why do you take such [expletive deleted] in you marriage?"

 

I said "Because I don't want to end up like you and Mom, fighting all the time."

 

 

My advice, based on what you have said and the obvious distress you feel in the marriage, is to simply say that, unless she makes significant efforts to help put the marriage on a proper footing, without interference or the opinions of other family members, then you will have no alternative but to leave. Mean it and do it.

 

Yeah, that's the direction I am heading.

[DN]

It takes two to fight. All you have to do is refuse. So if you are discussing something, do it as reasonably as you can. Negotiate and compromise, where that is possible, but if she starts to fight, taunt you, belittle you, etc. then tell her that you will not tolerate that sort of behavior; that if and when she is prepared to talk in a reasonable way you will resume the discussion and then just walk away.

[suprema99]

I remember reading your post and was gonna reply, but I thought I'd hold off just in case I was wrong. I was was right, was gonna tell you that your wife needs more counseling it seems, than you. Especially if the kids and co-workers notice the same thing. I don't agree with you though telling your dad off like that, that was a cheap shot to his marriage. Even if it was meant as a joke. Like Dn said about putting up with her behavior, I agree. She sounds like a real piece of work this woman. Very complex and domineering it sounds.

[quiet_observer_guy]

Especially if the kids and co-workers notice the same thing

 

one the more pithy comments made by a co-worker of hers was "Would you stop working? It's making us all look bad, and making it look like we don't need more people."

 

They were short staffed at that point, and management was taking its time filling the vacancy.

 

I don't agree with you though telling your dad off like that, that was a cheap shot to his marriage. Even if it was meant as a joke.

 

It wasn't meant as a joke.

 

My Dad doesn't have a lot of friends whom he feels he can confide in. He has spent a lot of time talking to me about his relationship with my Mom.

 

It was me that convinced both my parents to get into counselling for their marriage.

 

When my Dad whacked my Mom with a towel after 53 years of marriage (first physical violence in their married life) it was me that dressed him down and told him he needed to apologise.

 

He did.

 

I recognise that the shot at my parents marriage may have sounded cheap, but it was an accurate reflection of my feelings, and of a huge part of my motivation in always looking for a softer way to deal with situations in my own marriage (in retrospect, possibly a mistake).

 

For the record, I am usually the person that holds their tongue.

 

I am known by friends, family, and co-workers as extremely even tempered and polite even in difficult circumstances.

[DN]

I am known by friends, family, and co-workers as extremely even tempered and polite even in difficult circumstances.

 

This is a good quality provided you don't take it to the extreme of allowing yourself yo be walked over.

[Spirits Away]

Somehow, my image of female are somewhat similar to how you described. They're all sort of the same. They complain & are too controlling, even though they try to cover it up.

 

But one thing i understand about your wife is that:

There are some people who have an extreme dislike for dirt and things that are not properly organized. It took me a long time to realize it. But when i relate this to "bad smell" (thing that i have an extreme dislike towards), I can understand those people that are visually sensitive, like your wife. (the smell of smoke triggers anger in me whether i like it or not), I bet you anything that if you made the kitchen really clean and organized, she would notice it & feel happy toward it. But like you said, the problem is that there are always some things to complain. From how you described her, she sounded like a very cynical person as well.

[DN]

First of all, most females are not like that.

 

Second: if she has an extreme dislike of dirt - she can learn to use the various cleaning materials available.

[suprema99]

My opinion is that if your dads marriage is down the tubes, don't let it effect yours or any possible future relationships you might have in the future. He confides in you possibly, cause he might see his own marriage deteriorating and doesn't want the same thing with you. That might sound crazy but a good possiblility. It sounds like you want to make this marriage work. I think that's a good thing. I still think your wife though needs to take a good look at herself. She might be the problem here. Goodluck

[Spirits Away]

I don't know, that's really the kind of image I have. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the families I see are all very similar. But that's just my reality, you have your experience as well of course.

 

No, you don't understand about the dirt part. It's a genetic thing that immediately triggers anger. I may sound very irrational, but really, it's very difficult to accommodate to those who have these genes. All smokers HAVE to accommodate to me, or else. Really, that's how extreme it is. I'm a very messy person as well. So I know how it is like to be on the other end of the table, having to be commanded to clean up. But, i'm just saying i understand that reaction, doesn't make me side with the wife.

[quiet_observer_guy]

I am known by friends, family, and co-workers as extremely even tempered and polite even in difficult circumstances.

 

This is a good quality provided you don't take it to the extreme of allowing yourself yo be walked over.

 

my wife is the only person who walks over me

 

i am a large (not fat) guy, have a strong personality, i am well spoken

 

i am usually elected/selected the spokesperson or chair of school parent groups, church and other community organizations i am involved with

 

i am known in local politics as someone not to be trifled with - i am nice, i am concilliatory, but not a milquetoast

 

it's only my wife who tramples on me

[suprema99]

Spirits away, I feel like you do. I smoke also and I hate when people are pretencious and look so hard on it these days- get a life these people or at best stay out of mine then. lol Question to the poster? If you have a strong personality and are well spoken. Why would you let your wife walk all over you then? It might be a simple question you should probably ask yourself. Goodluck

[Shadows Light]

Intimacy and sex. Could your wife be going through the "change" many women get turned off by sex during this time. Haven't had the experience myself so I can't say. I understand where you are coming from... I questioned my marriage in relation to lack of intimacy. He'd come up with excuse after excuse. Stress. Tired. Kids. etc etc. However, he refused to make dates with me. Work, Kids, House, yes... it takes a lot of your time...but if you don't make the time for the two of you... what do you have?

 

You didn't get married to pay bills. Some things are necessary evils and have to be done. And I think that in today's fast paced rat race world... intimacy in a marriage slips down the priority list.

 

I've read your posts. And quite frankly you sound too good to be true almost. LOL. You've gone out and read books on romance???? You cook, you clean, you help take care of the kids, you are active in the community and you have a job... OMG... darlin.. if all this is true.. and you are still getting the cold shoulder.. something smells in the State of Denmark....

 

Unless you can talk to her... or get counseling. You're in a catch 22 situation.

 

Your welcome to PM me if you need an ear. Good luck.

[ronniegirl]

Does it have to do with turning 40 for you? This year I am in a very interperspective mode- I too am not happy in my marriage and I believe it has been as such for awhile however it is turning 40 that has brought my perspective on happiness to the forefront.

 

It is hard to imagine being divorced, especially when children are involved but life is short and we are to make the best of it are we not? My husband does not communicate with me-no matter how much I try, it seems to be tirelessly pointless. I too am wondering what to do and what is the answer to it all. My husband and I are in counselling- at least he agreed to that unlike your wife unfortunately as it is nice to have a professional on your side. I feel, however, the same discussion continues in therapy, promises are made but not delivered. Boy, divorce is a tough decision to make. I do want to make sure there is no hope left. I just don't know how to judge that- do you?