question about gay/lesbian people.

[SaSaRai]

How many of you believe in the bible? I do.. and im a christian and in the bible it says that

"no man shall love another man and no woman another woman or they shalt surely die"

 

It also says that the unclean and unpure mind can send you to hell also. So even if your not gay - if you still lust after the same sex you will perish when the world is over.

 

But I know that ever since I was 3 years old I've started liking both sexes and I had no control over it. I was 3 years old... not like I knew anything about the world - all I knew was how I felt. And if God really is real - as I always believed he was , and if he loves each and everyone of us and wants us all to join him in heaven in the after-life .... then why is there such a thing as a gay/lesbian relationship?

 

I mean come on, its NOT fair at all some of us do find out our preference at a VERY young age and how are you supposed to change that to fit your religion? My attraction to other guys was like 1% and 99% to girls. And it still is, but in god's eyes that is still considered WRONG.... any thoughts on this?

[chblueguy]

Well it's good that you believe in God and all that. But did you ever stop to wonder who in fact wrote the Bible, in what language, and in what context?? God did not write the Bible, and the Bible was not written in English. The Bible was written by MEN. Men who had very different ways of thinking than we do now. Why does it say no man shall lie with another man, but nothing about women??

 

You just have to decide for yourself how much trust you put in these ancient men who claimed to have been inspired by God to write these things. And also if you're attraction to men is 1% vs. 99% to women, I really don't understand the dilemma. That doesn't seem to be much to act on and it could be easily repressed if you want it to. Just my opinion.

[SaSaRai]

i have another post where my best friend is hitting on me... and id do anything for him, and i really dont want to end up gay... id ont have nothing against it , its just my family.

 

It does say stuff about women, and when it doesnt "man" represents both. Plus, I don't know if you listen to the news or whatever but things that these "ancient men" wrote about and said god gave them visions and all. These things have ACTUALLY CAME TRUE and THOUSANDS OF YEARS after they wrote about it. Scientists found Noah's ark on top of that mountain in asia (although i forget what mountain it is) and they say that there is no way possible for man to have taken that ship up there. Which makes sense... there have been several incidents that would make one think the bible and god are real because event in the bible have actually taken place.

[Cadence308]

I don't believe in the Bible, I don't read the Bible, study it, or go to church. The way I see religion is that it is man-made. These ancient guys claimed to be prophets and received visions from god. I do believe in some sort of after-life and I think religion and the Bible is great for people who need to be scared and disciplined into treating others well and obeying the rules of the land. I don't need these things in order to treat others with dignity or respect.

 

I also don't think that people should be tricked into feeling guilty about their sexual orientation and that's what religion and the Bible does. Just think, if everyone were heterosexual and had kids this world would be even more populated than it already is and we would have more waste and pollution, so homosexuality is also a form of population control!

 

It's also not uncommon for many species to mate or be attracted to the same-sex. You would have to do a search on the internet about it, but sexual relations between 2 animals of the same species is very common. The main difference between humans and these other species is that we think about it and judge it too much.

 

Just my opinion.

[shorty4ever15]

This is quite a controversial thread you've started here. Anyway, I was born and raised catholic. As I've grown older, I still believe in God and all that, but I've kind of adopted my own religious beliefs. Personally, I dont believe in a lot of what The Bible says--specifically about homosexuality. The Bible was a man-made document. And, when it was written, I really doubt that homosexuality was an issue then. What I think it all comes down to is this: God created us. He doesn't make our decisions for us; however, he created who we are. Our sexuality is part of who we are. I did not decide to fall in love with my best friend--It just kind of happened. Just like other crushes on guys. I can't help it. As much as I could try to be "not gay or bi," I would still have these desires.

 

The last thing I'm going to say is something I've said time and time again--love is a very powerful emotion. Something as powerful as "true love" isnt just something that we decide (I want to love him....no her....maybe him--it isn't like that). It is something special that occurs between two people for who they are. It can not be discriminated by outer persons such as gender.

 

And, just as a side point

Just think, if everyone were heterosexual and had kids this world would be even more populated than it already is and we would have more waste and pollution, so homosexuality is also a form of population control!

I'd never thought of that before.

 

~shorty

[SaSaRai]

Just think, if everyone were heterosexual and had kids this world would be even more populated than it already is and we would have more waste and pollution, so homosexuality is also a form of population control

 

well dont that just make sense then? if god made us then why didnt he make it to where men could have babies too? if it is ok for people to be homosexual then wouldnt they be able to have babies and start a family?

[Anger_Sadness_247]

Hi, im new here and i wanted to comment on this debate. i totally agree with shorty on this one..i didn't grow up in the church but i have been a christian for a few yrs and i adopted some of my own beliefs. i have been attracted to other girls ever since i was real young and nver had been able to do naything bout it.

so, yes i htink that there is nothin wrong with it, its part of who u are , i know i am bisexual and i admit it to whoever wants to know. so be who u want to be but u can still respect God.

 

-mel

[shorty4ever15]

I'm sorry for doing this.....but what the (four letter f word) is that. Like I said, the bible was written by man thousands of years ago. HELLO!!!! Times have changed.

 

Also, believe what you want to believe, some people don't believe in God or the bible at all.

 

I don't know if this is an unfunny attempt at sarcasm or what, but it was pretty disturbing to read.

 

Sorry to everyone else, but that last post really bothered me.

[shorty4ever15]

Also, where did that come from. No one here ever claimed to be an expert on the subject. The person who started the thread was just looking for opinions on the matter. Also, if you would read all of the other posts, no one ever said The Bible is the law. We all had our own opinions and that was that.

[shes2smart]

Sorry to everyone else, but that last post really bothered me.

 

I think the last post wasn't meant to be 100% serious, but just a different way of stating the same point you made about the Bible being written by humans at a different time in history.

 

Sometimes I think we get way too serious on this board.

 

Anyway, I'm not any sort of student of the Bible. I was raised Catholic, but have long since gone on a different path.

 

The thing that gets lost in all these different admonitions from organized religion is the very simple message Jesus taught.

 

Unconditional Love.

 

If you believe in a God who loves unconditionally, the concept of hell as a place of punishment is moot. Hell is the separation of oneself from God's unconditional love. We have these wonderfully complex brains and we use them to separate ourselves from the Source. God never leaves us or stops loving us...we just fail to recognize that He is there.

 

Keep in mind that organized religion was created in order that a few could control the many. What better way to keep the masses in line than the creation of a vengeful God with many many rules and rights and wrongs? (Oh, yes, and let's not forget that tithe to the church coffers, too.)

 

Unconditional Love.

 

That one lesson contains all the rules and morality one needs.

[shorty4ever15]

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy

considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and

unchanging.

 

I kinda figured out that this person was just trying to make a point, but this was the wrong thread to make that point. No one here ever claimed that "God's word is eternal and unchanging." Hell, Bally's said that she didn't even believe in it at all. I said that I didn't agree with the bible to an extent. That's where I was coming from.

 

I think the bible can be an influential piece for the right person. It has some good advice that can guide a person. It has never helped me, but I know one of my friends reads it occasionally and it helps him through tough times. Personally, I think parts of the bible are very discriminatory. For instance the whole concept on same-sex relationships.

 

By the way, good post on unconditional love shes2smart.

~Shorty

[shes2smart]

but this was the wrong thread to make that point.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Everyone has a different sense of humor. I have seen that particular piece before in another context, and find it funny. By going to absurd lengths it points out the very thing you yourself were pointing out, but in a different way.

 

Life is way too brief to be taken seriously.

[shes2smart]

By the way, good post on unconditional love shes2smart.

 

Thanks.

 

Just had one additional thought along those lines.

 

Did anyone ever consider that God put homosexuals ~ and others who society deems "undesirable" ~ here in order for us to learn to love unconditionally as He does? Is it more Christ-like to shun those who are different, or to welcome them with an open heart?

 

I also tend to think while God does love us unconditionally, He can have a fairly twisted sense of humor at times.

[SaSaRai]

but if he did put homos here for that reason then why would he have said that no man shalt lover another man and no woman another woman?

[shorty4ever15]

I also tend to think while God does love us unconditionally, He can have a fairly twisted sense of humor at times.

 

hehe, I like that and have also thought that myself.

[Cadence308]

but if he did put homos here for that reason then why would he have said that no man shalt lover another man and no woman another woman?

 

I don't think that God ever said that because like I said, I don't believe in the Bible at all. I think some twisted, male chauvanistic, missionary sex style lovin', Bible Belt, homophobic Holy Roller, white trash, racist, pervert wrote that and claimed he got revelation from God. Actually, it was probably a group of "so-called" prophets that wrote it and my description most likely fits all of them.

 

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my descriptive opinion!

[SaSaRai]

Well there are 2 or three things in the bible that I know of that it said . It said somethign about israel becoming a nation near the end of time, and it did. And that god would protect israel and so far he has. In the 3day war there were a bunch of arab nations that attacked israel and israel kicked their butts. It also said in the bible that the people of israel would all split up into different countries and one day get back together and form the new nation .... and that happened too...

 

therfor wouldnt that make the bible true? how could someone know all of this thousands of years ago? that also defends why i would think that its wrong to be homosexual .... but then again.......

[shorty4ever15]

It wasn't my decision. I just am this way. I can't do a damn thing about it. God created me to be the way I am. I've tried to deny it, but it's pointless. I'm gay. I can't just change. So what your saying is that even though God created me this way....ITS WRONG!!!! Come on. If that's the case then what kind of sick individual is this. I don't think it is the case. (thereforeeee I would never refer to my God as a sick individual)

 

But if that is the case...then I was doomed from the beginning and I should just kill myself now.

[shes2smart]

but if he did put homos here for that reason then why would he have said that no man shalt lover another man and no woman another woman?

 

Because the Bible was written by humans, and being humans we like to tinker with things. That is something that has not changed over time. Because organized religion is about controlling the masses as well as saving their souls.

 

Are you willing to entertain the thought that, perhaps, that isn't what He said, but what the person He was speaking to wanted to hear?

 

In a purely historical context, there were a lot fewer humans populating the earth at the time. Procreation was vitally necessary for the survival of the species as a whole, and also just to get by. More kids=more workers for the family=more crops=more likelihood of surviving. Oh, yes, and more kids=more people to support the church. thereforeeee, it was in the church's interest to get people to make other people rather than engage in sexual activity that would not produce more people.

 

Granted, it's a gross oversimplification, but you need to put it in the context of the time so you can understand the humans who were writing this stuff down. Just like us, they had beliefs about right and wrong, and they had their own agendas. They were not perfect, they were human and made just as many mistakes as you and I.

 

Sometimes God's will for us is not easy, and we will cut a few corners here and there or try to find an easier road. It would be reasonable to believe people back then were much the same. It's probably human nature to be lazy and look for the easy way.

 

Organized religion plays on that trait, too. "Oh, don't worry your pretty little heads thinking about what's right and wrong...we've got it all figured out for you." They set themselves up as moral authority, but they're just as likely to fall as we are. (Catholic priests molesting altar boys...I rest my case on that point.)

 

Can't you see it? Someone is given the mission to write the word of God, but it doesn't mesh with what they personally think is right or what they've been taught by their family or society. So they throw in a few of their own thoughts and edit a few of God's. I can see this happening very easily. God gave us the gift of free will...so while He might ask us to do something, He also gives us the freedom to do it his way, our way, or no way.

 

Do you believe God loves us unconditionally or do you believe in a God that sits in judgment, keeping score and waiting to punish us for a wrong move? If you believe in a God who loves unconditionally, then that means He loves ALL of us (His creations...in His image, at that) unconditionally -- straight, gay, bi, handicapped, black, white, whatever. Jesus taught a message of unconditional love...to love each other as God loves us.

 

Only in a belief system that includes a vengeful and judgmental God can we justify treating those we perceive as "different" badly. Only in that type of belief system can we justify demonizing (dehumanizing) them, and once they've been dehumanized, that opens the door to all sorts of horrible treatment.

 

At any moment, we have but one choice. We can choose love or fear. Each of us has to make that choice for ourselves many, many times over. Choosing love will test us. Choosing love put Jesus on the cross. But ultimately, choosing love sets us free, where choosing fear keeps us locked in an ever-smaller cage.

 

I don't think that's where God intended us to be.

[shes2smart]

Well there are 2 or three things in the bible that I know of that it said . It said somethign about israel becoming a nation near the end of time, and it did. And that god would protect israel and so far he has. In the 3day war there were a bunch of arab nations that attacked israel and israel kicked their butts. It also said in the bible that the people of israel would all split up into different countries and one day get back together and form the new nation .... and that happened too...

 

therfor wouldnt that make the bible true? how could someone know all of this thousands of years ago? that also defends why i would think that its wrong to be homosexual .... but then again.......

 

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[shorty4ever15]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

LOL....nice

 

Anyway, you make some very good points and explain yourself in an understanding way.

 

What you speak is much of what I think on this topic. Do good unto others. And, unconditional love.

[shes2smart]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

LOL....nice

 

Anyway, you make some very good points and explain yourself in an understanding way.

 

What you speak is much of what I think on this topic. Do good unto others. And, unconditional love.

 

I got 21 years on ya...if I haven't learned a thing or two during those years I've been wasting my time and taking up space.

[SaSaRai]

hmm... yes, it could be possible also that god did tell these people what to write down... and maybe they did... but maybe they added their own twist to it.... that does makes sense... and it even makes sense that the person who translated the hebrew into other languages changed it (i dont think hebrew is a very spoken language anymore?) .... this is a pretty good topic i think.

[shes2smart]

Ah, but the truly great thing about this thread is that we were able to have a rational, respectful discussion about a topic that people have gone to war over.

 

A little unconditional love in action, folks...'s a wonderful thing.

[mtastic]

hmm... yes, it could be possible also that god did tell these people what to write down... and maybe they did... but maybe they added their own twist to it.... that does makes sense... and it even makes sense that the person who translated the hebrew into other languages changed it (i dont think hebrew is a very spoken language anymore?) .... this is a pretty good topic i think.

 

Yeah, this is a good point about the Bible. Wieter or not you believe God talked to the people who wrote it, pretty much any writer is going to put their own spin on it slightly, its sort of like the telephone game, as each person gets information and passes it on, it gets changed slightly. As you also mentioned, the Bible has been translated a number of times. To my knowledge(which i'll admit isn't that great) The various books of the old and new testaments were origonally written primarily in Hebrew, Arameic (sp), and Greek, the major languages of the are back in those days. Then it was translated into latin when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as thier natioinal religion. So thats already a level or two of translation, depending on the particual book. Then, it continued to be translated to the point where i'm sure you can find a copy of the Bibile ion just aboput any language you can think of. So thats alot of people wit opportunities to change it, wiether on purpos or by accidental mistranslation.

 

On top of this, there are several different versions of the Bible available. First ther is the Hebrew Talmud (please forgive any spelling errors), which is Pretty much the Old testament untranslated in its origonal Hebrew. To address part of your post, Hebrew still is spoken today and i believe most Jewish religious services are conducted in hebrew (I've never attended one, hopefully someone who has can verify that for us).

 

Anyway, once you get to the Christian bible, there are many different versions, The King James Bible, The Russian and Greek Ortodox bibles, The Mourmon Bible, the Roman Catholic bible, and several others. These version slightly differe from each other in terms of content as well, as some have different books within them than others. On top of that there's also whats known as the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and The Scrolls of Nag Hammidi (sp). The Apocrypha itself is a series of Books which were left out of most versions of the Bible, but written at the same time, with equal claim of being God's word. The Dead Sea scrolls are a series of writings from around the time of Jesus which offer even more insight into the period, in cluding Jesus and His teachings, and the Nag Hammidi scrolls are Early Christian writings which were the basis of what is called Gnostic Christianity, which was a version of Christianity adapted for an ancient Greek religion, and is surpirisingly similar to many Eastern philosophical beliefs.

 

So as you can see, even if whats in the Bible is God's word, It might not necessarily be entirely God's word, ore even necesserily all of what God had to say. If you're interested, i can send you some links about some of those ideas, particularly the Apocrypha, Dead Sea scrolls, and Gnostic Christianity. I'm not trying to rock the boat or discount the Bible or anything like that, just offer up some interesting things i've noticed about it.

 

sorry, that turned out kinda long,

mtastic