only phone calls and an empty promise to meet

[LAYAAN]

This is through the Indian arranged marriage system.

The guy and I have already talked 4-5 times. I suggested in a nice way that I want to meet.

Him "I'm not looking to really date (I don't know how to interpret this but read on) I think there is no point in meeting unless I get to know you more. As I'm talking with you, I'm getting to know you more and more."

Me "From my side, I have already discussed the most important points and I would be open to meeting if you are as well. I don't see any point in waiting and just talking on phone. Meeting in person a few times is important for me."

Him "Yes, yes, we can try meeting sometime in March/April."

He calls me every weekend and talks for hours. He does most of the talking. He doesn't ask any Qs. Just talks about what happened last week, blah, blah. I had to cut him short today. I refuse to be someone's entertainment.

Today he said "Hey, you know, if we don't marry, we can still be friends." Why would anyone talk like this? I'm angry, frustrated.

I'm thinking of writing him an email. "Hi T, I think we have talked for a sufficient length of time and I would be open to meeting and getting to know you more in person. I understand that you are in Chicago and meeting right away is not possible. We can meet when you have free time. I would like to pick up our conversation from then on. I am not a fan of talking a lot before actually seeing the person."

What would be a decent yet effective way of handling this?

Thanks much.

[annie24]

Hey, you know, if we don't marry, we can still be friends."

 

you know, i think that this was actually a positive comment. like a compliment! he enjoys talking to you (or enjoys talking about himself to you, lol) and that you are someone he likes spending time with on the phone. that sounds like a positive thing.

 

instead of being harsh towards him, i would say, "Wow, look at the calendar, March will be here in a few days! Let's make plans to meet in person like we talked about before! These are the weekends I am available....." see what he says.

[lady00]

Why not try getting the ball rolling by asking about a particular date in March or April so that whomever is flying out to see the other can start booking flights and a hotel room? It makes sense to start planning now if you are going to meet in March or April. If he does not want to do that and just wants to keep talking online then perhaps just cut your losses and move on. I'm not sure how the arranged marriage system works, but I guess I am wondering if talking a lot online before meeting is typical. In that case, maybe that is just something you have to accept. If not, ask about specific dates, and if that doesn't work, move on to other prospects.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you for your rapid and good replies Annie and Lady.

Well, Talking comes first especially because in this type of marriage system, people are mostly not in same area. Pepole try to get their non-negotiable areas out on table. Tell the other person what they are looking for, what is their timeframe to get married, etc. We have already talked about all this.

 

Next weekend he calls, I'm going to talk like Annie suggested and then say that I'd be open to making plans if we are meeting soon.

[annie24]

I guess since you guys have already discussed the "dealbreakers" and you are still talking, then yes, tell him you would like to meet in person and start suggesting plans - place to meet, where, when, etc....

[Momake]

I feel so biased when this type of topic comes up. I have a few Indian girl friends who are going through the same thing. The guys they meet online or are set up with are more often than not mommas boys and/or have ego's bigger than a house - and they're stubborn to boot.

 

You're definitely a strong willed girl. I suggest you do put your foot down and don't sugar coat with this guy... because you also know he won't sugar coat with you. Neither of you want to waste time. Tell him meeting him asap is priority #1 to you.

[penelope13]

I'm not really sure why you are in such a hurry and anxious about meeting him so soon, considering you will have still some time to go till you finish your PhD.

[icarus27]

I feel so biased when this type of topic comes up. I have a few Indian girl friends who are going through the same thing. The guys they meet online or are set up with are more often than not mommas boys and/or have ego's bigger than a house - and they're stubborn to boot.

 

It's so funny, being a person of E Indian background, who has dabbled in the Asian online dating/matrimonial scene - I can say exactly the same thing about some of the women I met. 30-year-old mummy's or daddy's girls, ego-es as big as a house and stroked by a crowd of equally air-headed girlfriends, and massively stubborn - refusing to compromise on the smallest issue.

 

Tinu, could be that the guy and you want the same thing - only you're getting to it walking on different paths.

You've got dealbreakers out of the way (good), plan to move forward (good), only disagreement is that to you, meeting and having an in-person interaction is important - but to him, taking it easy, chatting away for several more weeks is good enough. He sees this as enough progress.

 

Although there's always a lot of good advice on eNA on how talking for hours before meeting up is not healthy (creates an 'imaginary' relationship), there is something else to think about given that this is the arranged marriage scenario. Regrettably what I have found is, whenever I would politely raise a question about the process, or try to keep things healthy and 'grounded' - the woman would go behind my back and start talking with another man who does not ask difficult questions. Examples are

- one time, I said to a girl that after our good 1st date, it should lead to more dates so that we begin to know each other. She thought that a good 1st date leads directly to meeting her parents. When I was uncomfortable with it, she moved on straight away to someone else who is okay with this frankly ridiculous way of dating

- of course, I've mentioned the story of the girl who I declined to date when she admitted she was rebounding. She went ahead, rebounded with another man, and is now married.

 

All that was a long way of saying that in the arranged scene, each of us becomes instantly disposable - because many Asians / E Indians just want to get married, there is hardly any concept of 'being loyal' or 'waiting for a person who you know is good.'

 

So if you make a line in the sand, tell him that you will sign off for now and meet him in April, my guess is - by April, he will be with another woman. So I feel like maintaining that phone contact, even if you two are not meeting up, is necessary.

 

But I'm not asking you to be untrue to your own concept. You want to assert yourself, and you should. One way of doing that during this phone phase, is to start bringing the conversation towards your own life - and checking how he responds. Does he become interested, does he ask questions, does he support when you say something is bothering you? Until now, he has monopolised the chat - which to me is not a great sign, but heck I am trying to be fair to him.

 

That said, if it turns out he's consistently unsupportive, or pi**es about delaying a meeting even further than March/April - walk away. You've been understanding enough already.

[LAYAAN]

I guess since you guys have already discussed the "dealbreakers" and you are still talking, then yes, tell him you would like to meet in person and start suggesting plans - place to meet, where, when, etc....

Yes, thats what I plan on doing.

[LAYAAN]

I feel so biased when this type of topic comes up. I have a few Indian girl friends who are going through the same thing. The guys they meet online or are set up with are more often than not mommas boys and/or have ego's bigger than a house - and they're stubborn to boot.

 

You're definitely a strong willed girl. I suggest you do put your foot down and don't sugar coat with this guy... because you also know he won't sugar coat with you. Neither of you want to waste time. Tell him meeting him asap is priority #1 to you.

What should I say... I feel sorry for all my Indian sisters. I feel their pain.

What you have written is so true... I'm tired of Indian men. They think that they are the king in the world. The moment they step outside India... forget it... their "price" in marriage market skyrockets!

[LAYAAN]

I'm not really sure why you are in such a hurry and anxious about meeting him so soon, considering you will have still some time to go till you finish your PhD.

I'm not in a hurry to get married, but I refuse to keep talking with any man like this for months and months. I tend to get emotionally attached and if the man says no to me, it leaves scars.

It hurts me to share this with you: In year 2008, I wasted almost 8-9 months talking on phone with a man. He kept giving me reasons, several reasons for not meeting, everytime something new. I was naive, stupid, gullible. I believed in everything he said. I'm sure the guy was flirting with other women. Bragged about his Lexus, his exercise routine, his job, his house, but told me "Oh, if I've to come to LA, I'll tell my company to send me there on some work assignment." Why you want your company to send you to LA? You dont' have even a couple hundred dollars to travel? Ultimately he didn't come to meet me. I hung up the phone in anger when one day he tried to give me some lame excuse. That was the end of it. The guy is still unmarried and registered on a different matrimonial website.

In this recent incidence, I can sense all those feelings coming back. I'll not let anyone use me and waste my time like this. I'm not interested in listening to his anecdotes and fooling myself into thinking that I'm getting to know the man and vice-versa. Sometimes these men just want someone to talk to, he might be using me to fulfill this need.

[LAYAAN]

Tinu, could be that the guy and you want the same thing - only you're getting to it walking on different paths. I'm not sure what the guy wants anymore. Paths are different, thats for sure.

You've got dealbreakers out of the way (good), plan to move forward (good), only disagreement is that to you, meeting and having an in-person interaction is important - but to him, taking it easy, chatting away for several more weeks is good enough. He sees this as enough progress. Right, so thats where we differ. Listen, the reason why I'm keen on meeting is because (it hurts me to say this, I feel vulnerable) most men have turned me down after 1st date itself. No 2nd date. So, if this is not meant to work, I woudl like to know that sooner than after few more months of blah, blah on phone with him. Believe it or not, I don't like to run my mouth like most girls. I talk a lot with my friends and parents but when it comes to opposite gender, I talk to-the-point. I dont' want to get emotionally involved in a man after talking to him for months and months. Honestly, I don't know what to talk to him about.

 

Although there's always a lot of good advice on eNA on how talking for hours before meeting up is not healthy (creates an 'imaginary' relationship), there is something else to think about given that this is the arranged marriage scenario. Regrettably what I have found is, whenever I would politely raise a question about the process, or try to keep things healthy and 'grounded' - the woman would go behind my back and start talking with another man who does not ask difficult questions. Completely agree! No truer words can be said. God! You have hit the nail right on its head. So, its interesting if you say this and have experienced this, now you can see why I try to talk minimum. Examples are

- one time, I said to a girl that after our good 1st date, it should lead to more dates so that we begin to know each other. She thought that a good 1st date leads directly to meeting her parents. When I was uncomfortable with it, she moved on straight away to someone else who is okay with this frankly ridiculous way of dating. right, I can understand this. You and her have different way of going about things. You can't expect her to learn yours. She doesn't want to learn yours. She went about her way. Honestly, you may be hurt by people moving on so quickly, but you are only saving yourself from heartache by letting them go. They would have gone after 2nd - 3rd date if you said that you wanted to date longer. So, you lost nothing.

- of course, I've mentioned the story of the girl who I declined to date when she admitted she was rebounding. She went ahead, rebounded with another man, and is now married. You did the right thing. You have to understand that mostly women are illogical creatures. This man has low standard/foolish/inexperienced/doesn't care/something else totally and decided to get together with this woman. You dont' know what their married life is like. You lost nothing. Count your blessings. Not everyone has same standard as you do.

 

On the same line, this guy called me "weird" when a topic came up, he said "I'm not going to look for a girl. I'm not going to marry any non-Indian girl. I've only registered my name in "R" (matrimonial service) and I'm only considering the girls that my dad selects. So, I asked "Why?" because I really wanted to know how he thinks. He said "I think you are weird. What do you mean by why? I think you are a strange girl." Now you tell who is strange.

 

All that was a long way of saying that in the arranged scene, each of us becomes instantly disposable - because many Asians / E Indians just want to get married, there is hardly any concept of 'being loyal' or 'waiting for a person who you know is good.' Yes, marriage is more important than the quality of person. Not to be confused with the looks and earning potential. These 2 don't summate quality of a human. I thought men were logical beings. No, they are not. So, what do you expect from women? and that too Indian women? huh! Wake up, you are in lala land.

 

So if you make a line in the sand, tell him that you will sign off for now and meet him in April, this is exactly what I plan on telling him. If he wants to meet in May, fine, get back in touch with me in May, but I refuse to continue takling until May, just to find out that I'm involved in him and after we meet, he says no. I'm not suggesting that he should say yes, I'm only trying to protect myself. my guess is - by April, he will be with another woman. Yes, I suspect that as well. So I feel like maintaining that phone contact, even if you two are not meeting up, is necessary. I honestly don't know what to talk to him at this point. I want to either meet, or stop talking. I can't take this nonsensical phone calls anymore. He goes blah, blah, about his workweek, this and that. Yesterday, he said how he reacted to someone who is gay and invited him to a gay party. I don't want to know these details. It kills the attraction and desire to meet.

 

But I'm not asking you to be untrue to your own concept. You want to assert yourself, and you should. One way of doing that during this phone phase, is to start bringing the conversation towards your own life - and checking how he responds. Does he become interested, does he ask questions, does he support when you say something is bothering you? Until now, he has monopolised the chat - which to me is not a great sign, but heck I am trying to be fair to him. Thank you, these are good points. I'm getting turned off, I"m not sure I'll continue with this guy.

 

That said, if it turns out he's consistently unsupportive, or pi**es about delaying a meeting even further than March/April - walk away. You've been understanding enough already.

[LAYAAN]

This guy has no sense how to talk. He has already told me x2 that "he is virgin" I never asked if he is. He was talking about girls in general and came up with this newsflash. Thank God! he never asked me about my sexual past. What an idiot! Who talks like that?

 

Last time we talked he said how he felt when someone invited him to a gay party. Come on! Why are you talking about all this so early on? Its not helping me build a good image of you. My good friend has gay friends. I mix openly with them. Afterall they are humans too. Now I can't say this to this man. He will start questioning and making false accusations. I'm afraid it will even reach my parents.

 

He mentioned how an old man sexually molested his friend in college and gave details of their meeting. Come on! Finally I had to say to him "Can we please discuss something else? This is making me feel uncomfortable."

 

Last time we talked he asked me often during his monologue "Am I boring you? I hope I'm not boring you." If I'm not talking much during our conversation then you need to stop and ask yourself this Q.

[annie24]

did you mention to him that you would like to meet?

[penelope13]

What are the things that you would like to talk about with a potential guy?

 

To me it sounds as if you are carrying a whole lot of resentment from your past and that you bring this resentment into each and every new encounter with a new man. There is so little on your list that is acceptable to you for him to talk about tell you, that I can imagine who some people might get turned off after a few initial dates.

 

I honestly have no concept about this arranged marriage scenario, thus excuse my ignorance. However I can't really see the logic/ point in first deciding that you will get married, before you allow yourself to open up to the other person and to talk to them about anything and everything.

 

I don't understand what is so wrong with someone telling you that he is a virgin early on - isn't this something that might be important to some people to know early on, before deciding that is the person they are going to get married to?

 

 

I understand your need for wanting to protect yourself and not wasting any time. But if wasting time for you means, you first need a guarantee, then you will invest into getting to know them - I am not sure it's the best strategy even for the arranged married approach.

 

I would find it strange if someone is willing to meet me, but is not willing to communicate with me until then. March is already here, so that's only a few more weeks maximum before you'll meet him.

[annie24]

^^^ yes, i agree 100% with pen. i think laying out there right away that you are a virgin seems ok to me, if you are discussing marriage. it seems in this arranged marriage thing, a lot of "touchy" conversations are had early on, so it might be good to practice and be able to navigate those answers so you can get to the 2nd and 3rd date. (Kind of like going on a job interview and they ask you what are your weaknesses or "name a time when you have made a mistake!")

 

i wonder if it might be good to talk to other indian women in your shoes, ask them what sorts of questions they get asked during the arranged marriage process. you know, then you can quickly and easily get those questions out of the way (about money and virginity) and move onto other topics you might want to discuss (movies, music, etc...)

 

I would find it strange if someone is willing to meet me, but is not willing to communicate with me until then. March is already here, so that's only a few more weeks maximum before you'll meet him.

 

yes, i would say the same thing. makes more sense to me just to tell him, "march is here, we should make plans to meet, like we agreed on earlier."

[BriarRose]

I don't know anything about Indian arranged marriages, but I generally don't spend too much time chatting/emailing someone without meeting them. Maybe 2-3 weeks tops.

 

I agree with Annie. See if you can't make some definitive plans soon.

[icarus27]

A couple of people here, and a great many Americans/Europeans, don't have a great idea of what the arranged 'introduction' or 'arranged marriage' scene is like.

 

Some pointers then.

 

People like Tinu and I are 2nd-generation Indo-Americans or -Europeans (a term I just made up, but you know what I mean). So our ideas have evolved to a point where we want to know and feel something for a person before stepping towards the altar with them, let's say. It is not surprising then, that when we meet other Indo-Americans or -Europeans, we are expecting a similar New World attitude where people actually understand the significance of dating as a means of getting to know, of ironing out differences, learning to compromise (if needed) until a happy medium is reached. Of course, a certain basic attraction has to be there too, but I believe (not many people do) that this can grow with time.

 

In Tinu's case, the nasty surprise is Indian men who are professionally successful in the US, often in executive jobs, but whose idea of dating is having everything on their own terms, and imagining that they will get a Stepford wife who does anything just to be with him.

 

The equally nasty surprise for me in the UK, has been Brit-Indian women who claim to be modern, want equality, but really want equality only as long as it's convenient for them. Since dating by its very nature calls for emotional intelligence, and can be hard at times, the first sign of difficulty will make these women run. And my experience has been that, after pretending to be ultra-hip 21st century women, they usually run back to their parents and get hitched to a parentally approved rich guy. Or a rich white guy, a variation on the same theme. Basically anything that gets them 'status'.

 

For me, it is not only the unusual and just plain *weird* behaviour shown by Indians that bothers me, it is the staggering levels of hypocrisy, and 'fronting' that goes on. Ordinary people looking for genuine human emotion don't stand a chance.

[LAYAAN]

did you mention to him that you would like to meet?

Oh yes! First time I mentioned this, he said "I can't meet unless I have feelings developed for a person." I kept quiet. I really wanted to say "I can't develop feelings unless I meet. Now someone has to start somewhere, so lets just meet."

[Bergamot]

I haven't read all the responses in this thread but my feeling is that this guy's idea of Dating is not on the same page as your ideas. After talking on the phone couple of times it only makes sense to meet in person. If he is truly interested he should be planning on visiting you. And his whole friendship thing if marriage is not on the cards sounds bizarre actually.

[marshmlofluff]

Oh, this is a fascinating thread. I am Indian-American too and have been through this. The norms of "dating" and Indian-style marriage are so different that it makes me dizzy trying to keep a foot in both worlds.

 

And Tinu, I think you should lose the guy. I have interacted with men like this--I'm not saying your guy is like this, but the ones I met all did the same thing...they were stalling because they had some other girl in India they were talking to. Just before they went to India suddenly they were in a huge hurry to meet; they would come, meet me, go to India, and come back engaged.

[LAYAAN]

What are the things that you would like to talk about with a potential guy? First of all, I just want to say this. I appreciate your efforts to help me even if you don't know a whole lot about this arranged marriage thing. I really do appreciate it. I'm here to learn and open to feedback.

So far my approach has been this - Most Indian men I met have turned me downbecause they want someone who has a job yesterday. So, during flow of conversation, as I see opportunities, I ask following Qs mostly to find out what is it that they are looking for. I don't talk about what I'm looking for unless they ask or I feel the need to say. My goal is to gather information -

1) What is it that you are looking for in a person?

2) What are your expectations in terms of education, profession, job, salary?

3) What is your timeframe in your mind when it comes to dating/interacting and getting married?

I ask such open ended Qs where they can't give single word answers. They will have to talk more than that. I explain in my profile and a brief initial email to them that this is where I'm at in my life. I'm open to getting married if both of us feel that we have met the right person, but I won't be able to leave CA at this time due to my education and pharmacy exam commitments. If they like this they can call, meet. If they don't they shouldn't call me.

When we talk on phone, my goal is to get as much information about the guy's expectations, his timeframe etc. as possible. Once that is discussed, my preference is go meet up ASAP. There is no point in wasting time talking a lot on phone because it builds false intimacy, hopes, image. When you meet that man in person, things may not measure up.

 

To me it sounds as if you are carrying a whole lot of resentment from your past and that you bring this resentment into each and every new encounter with a new man. There is so little on your list that is acceptable to you for him to talk about tell you, that I can imagine who some people might get turned off after a few initial dates. I am hurt and angry about the process. I try to hide it as much as I can. Never raise voice, never use bad words, nothing. So, I don't know what else to do.

 

I honestly have no concept about this arranged marriage scenario, thus excuse my ignorance. However I can't really see the logic/ point in first deciding that you will get married, before you allow yourself to open up to the other person and to talk to them about anything and everything. I understand what you are saying. I'm not looking for a man who will look at me and say "Yes, I'll marry you." What I'm looking for is a man who is sincere, wants to get married if he feels he has met the right person, and consistently shows interest in me, wants to get to know me more, not just my finances. I want to interact/meet before we decide to marry. Western world calls it "dating". Yes, we call it "getting to know each other without sleeping together, without moving in to test compatibility of personalities, goals, lifestyle, etc." Since the dealbreakers are normally discussed early on and are out of way, the process is normally expedited 3-6 months of dating/interaction leading to engagement, then marriage. So, I'm not looking for an instant yes, but there is no point in going blah, blah without meeting.

 

I don't understand what is so wrong with someone telling you that he is a virgin early on - isn't this something that might be important to some people to know early on, before deciding that is the person they are going to get married to? I don't know. Just they way he came up with that topic and mentioned this to me, I feel strange. This is the 1st time any man has discussed his sexual past with me. Its very unnecessary at this time. If it was a deal-breaker for me, I would have asked, right?

 

I understand your need for wanting to protect yourself and not wasting any time. But if wasting time for you means, you first need a guarantee, then you will invest into getting to know them - I am not sure it's the best strategy even for the arranged married approach. not a gurantee, sorry if my strong words (due to frustration) made you think that. I normally let things flow smoothly. I just keep an eye on the progress, consistency, sincerity and how I feel about a man inside. So, I don't bombard people with information or ask too many details early on. I feel more comfortable opening up after 3-4 dates in terms of discussing more serious topics. Until then I focus on am I having fun with this guy? Does he seem interesting, genuine? How do I feel about myself when I'm with him?

 

I would find it strange if someone is willing to meet me, but is not willing to communicate with me until then. March is already here, so that's only a few more weeks maximum before you'll meet him. correct. Its not the best thing. I guess I'll just have to suck up and do what he is doing. He talks too much for a man. Seriously. I got bored last time. Next time he calls, I'm going to say to him "March is here...."

[LAYAAN]

Oh, this is a fascinating thread. I am Indian-American too and have been through this. The norms of "dating" and Indian-style marriage are so different that it makes me dizzy trying to keep a foot in both worlds.

 

And Tinu, I think you should lose the guy. I have interacted with men like this--I'm not saying your guy is like this, but the ones I met all did the same thing...they were stalling because they had some other girl in India they were talking to. Just before they went to India suddenly they were in a huge hurry to meet; they would come, meet me, go to India, and come back engaged.

Hi mashmlofluff... how are you? good to hear from another Indian sista who knows what I'm talking about.

The 2nd para what you wrote, so true... so true! They come see you, they don't say anything, go to India, come back married! You call 'em, their wife picks up Strange things man really!

You know, that's why I got smart and I started asking Qs like "When it comes to engagement and marriage, what timeframe do you have in your mind?" Those that are in a real hurry say openly "I'm 37-40, how long am I going to wait? When am I going to have kids?" or "I want to get married before June 2010." I don't say anything, I just listen and send them a polite email that I would require more time and I won't be able to make a decision this fast.

[LAYAAN]

Hey Marsh... I have a few Qs that you may be able to guide me.

I'm facing a lot of Qs related to finances.

"How much money can you make?" "When can you get a job?" "Where can you get a job?" "Are you in a recession-proof profession?" Did you face this? If yes, how did you handle it?

Thank you

[Bergamot]

So far my approach has been this - Most Indian men I met have turned me downbecause they want someone who has a job yesterday. So, during flow of conversation, as I see opportunities, I ask following Qs mostly to find out what is it that they are looking for. I don't talk about what I'm looking for unless they ask or I feel the need to say. My goal is to gather information -

1) What is it that you are looking for in a person?

2) What are your expectations in terms of education, profession, job, salary?

3) What is your timeframe in your mind when it comes to dating/interacting and getting married?

 

If you are bringing in the topic of education, profession, job, and salary why are you complaining that the men you meet talk about those things? It doesn't make sense.