only phone calls and an empty promise to meet

[LAYAAN]

If you are bringing in the topic of education, profession, job, and salary why are you complaining that the men you meet talk about those things? It doesn't make sense.

They ask later on anyways... and not just ask, turn me down because I'm not from a certain profession or don't make a certain amount of money. I ask because I can weed them out.

It may seem obvious to you, but I can tell you stories after stories when guys who strictly (?) wanted girls from IT/software profession came to meet me and then turned me down giving me a reason that I'm not from IT field. I'm not making this up. This has happened to me. So, I see to it that I ask that is my only way to know what I'm dealing with. I've had men ask me I want a woman who atleast makes x dollars/year. They would ask me these Qs on 1st date and then turn me down. I'm not going through that nonsense again.

[marshmlofluff]

Tinu I'm so happy to meet you. I also did a PhD. I'm a little different, American-born but in some ways that just makes it harder. Faced with that type of question, I answer honestly that as a PhD I am difficult to employ and will never make huge amounts of money. The people who get scared off by that are not people I want to marry anyway. I'd listed my income on the site which probably got rid of a lot of them from the beginning.

 

I did date one absolute jerk in finance who kept trying to get me to quit my field (which has nothing to do with finance) and become an investment banker, because that was convenient for him. One day he disappeared, went off to India and did the insta-marriage thing. I was so disgusted after him that I switched to dating non-Indians...after two bad relationships I am back on link removed. Like I said, I'm so happy to "meet" you!

 

I've been reading all your threads. It's fascinating how when you explain things that seem normal in Indian culture, people on ENA apply advice that would make perfect sense if you were dating an American guy, but don't make that much sense in the more business-oriented Indian frame of mind.

[Bergamot]

They ask later on anyways... and not just ask, turn me down because I'm not from a certain profession or don't make a certain amount of money.

 

Then they are just jerks. Good thing to know about them early on instead of getting attached and then discovering these traits.

 

It may seem obvious to you, but I can tell you stories after stories when guys who strictly (?) wanted girls from IT/software profession came to meet me and then turned me down giving me a reason that I'm not from IT field. I'm not making this up. This has happened to me. So, I see to it that I ask that is my only way to know what I'm dealing with. I've had men ask me I want a woman who atleast makes x dollars/year. They would ask me these Qs on 1st date and then turn me down. I'm not going through that nonsense again.

 

Can you weed out these people when you talk to them on the phone? Clearly tell them what you are studying and what your future profession is going to be. If they hear it loud and clear and then ask to meet you up and then turn you down then they are really dense!

[LAYAAN]

Tinu I'm so happy to meet you. I'm so happy to meet you. I'm giving you an online hug I also did a PhD. great! what did you get your PhD in? The good thing is that you are done. I'm still in the process, hoping to get done soon. I'm a little different, American-born but in some ways that just makes it harder. Faced with that type of question, I answer honestly that as a PhD I am difficult to employ and will never make huge amounts of money. I think thats what I'm going to start doing. Answer that Q very honestly and upfront. Those who want to go can go. The people who get scared off by that are not people I want to marry anyway. I'd listed my income on the site which probably got rid of a lot of them from the beginning. Yes, that makes it easier.

 

I did date one absolute jerk in finance who kept trying to get me to quit my field (which has nothing to do with finance) and become an investment banker, because that was convenient for him. One day he disappeared, went off to India and did the insta-marriage thing. I was so disgusted after him that I switched to dating non-Indians...after two bad relationships I am back on link removed. You are? Oh dear! Well, I wish you good luck. link removed is not a place for you like person, IMO. Its mostly full of India-born men. Yes, ofcourse there are quite a few of 'em in the US as well, but I'm talking in terms of attitude and mentality. Have you tried eHarmony? There are a lot of Indian men there raised in the US. I had a different challenge though. They were deeply concerned that I was after a green card. Like I said, I'm so happy to "meet" you! Yes, I'm very happy to meet you too.

 

I've been reading all your threads. It's fascinating how when you explain things that seem normal in Indian culture, people on ENA apply advice that would make perfect sense if you were dating an American guy, but don't make that much sense in the more business-oriented Indian frame of mind. Right, people here struggle to understand why I'm facing all this. Even though some of the regular visitors to my threads try their best to give an advice that I can use. I now have this resource. I didn't have this before either. I was completely on my own, struggling in marriage market.

[LAYAAN]

Then they are just jerks. Good thing to know about them early on instead of getting attached and then discovering these traits.

 

Can you weed out these people when you talk to them on the phone? Clearly tell them what you are studying and what your future profession is going to be. If they hear it loud and clear and then ask to meet you up and then turn you down then they are really dense!

Hey Bergamot, thank you for your support.

Yes, well I won't call them jerks. People have different preferences and these men have choices. Most of these men themselves don't know what they are looking for. They are sorta just floating around and come to meet me. Then they meet someone else and giving profession excuse is an easy way out. Thats just how the world operates. You don't owe anything to anyone.

Yes, I am trying to weed out. Thats the reason why ask the Qs enlisted. Even then they flip. There is nothing one can do about it. Thats just the nature of the game. Thats why I try not to talk a whole lot and get involved. Just ask very basic, information-gathering Qs and meet up. I have never gotten a 2nd date. Every man has rejected me so far, right after 1st date.

[Bergamot]

Hey Bergamot, thank you for your support.

Yes, well I won't call them jerks. People have different preferences and these men have choices. Most of these men themselves don't know what they are looking for. They are sorta just floating around and come to meet me. Then they meet someone else and giving profession excuse is an easy way out. Thats just how the world operates. You don't owe anything to anyone.

Yes, I am trying to weed out. Thats the reason why ask the Qs enlisted. Even then they flip. There is nothing one can do about it. Thats just the nature of the game. Thats why I try not to talk a whole lot and get involved. Just ask very basic, information-gathering Qs and meet up. I have never gotten a 2nd date. Every man has rejected me so far, right after 1st date.

 

While they are not jerks per se they are certainly behaving like jerks

 

I am sorry to hear that you have never gone past the first date. I know how painful it can be. I am trying to find some one too and know that it is a difficult process. Hang in there!

[marshmlofluff]

Hi Tinu. Yup I've tried everything--Shaadi, EH, Match, OKC, PoF, you name it. You're right about Shaadi; it has mostly guys with an Indian mentality. That said I met a few potential people there.

 

I never had very good luck with EH as compared to the other sites. For one thing I am a professor in a very, very, very rural area...basically, it comes up with no matches. I am the best fit for a liberal Indian person or an American guy who is politically liberal but personally conservative. That's a tough thing to find. I thought I'd found the second, but he left.

 

Which sites do you use?

[LAYAAN]

Oh, I see what you are saying.

EH would be tough if you are not in a city or a highly populated area. American men are not interested in dating accross states. They prefer to find someone they can meet on a frequent basis (and that does make sense, if they are going to date someone). With American men, have you tried church-going men? They seem to be personally conservative. I'm not sure about their political beliefs though... If you date a man who is inquisitive, curious, thinker types, he may be politically liberal, right?

Yes, in that case, you may have better luck with Indian men who are more open minded. Try Indian guys who have come here for education, they have lived here longer and have interacted with Americans in school and I would hope that it has given them a new perspective on life. Those that have come here only for work, I think they are more stuck-up.

I was on EH, but I wasn't courageous enough to date American men. I have my own hang-ups you know (no moving in, no live-in relationship, and no meaningless sex) so I tried to stay with the pool of Indian men. Most of them were raised in India so I faced the exact same Qs, same mentality there as well. Those that were of Indian ethnicity, but born here, thought that I was after their green card (I told them I couldn't tell from their profile that they were raised here or in India and I'm not here looking for a green-card marriage). After their passing such remarks, I closed the match. There is no way to convince a man who is stepping in with this -ve mindset.

Currently I'm a free member of shaadi. Haven't had much luck there.

[marshmlofluff]

Yeah--the problem with church-going types is that I am Hindu and non-religious, so someone who is Christian and religious is going to be really different from me. That is what I have been thinking--the best fit for me is an Indian guy who has come here for education, or a very open-minded non-Indian guy.

 

Don't be closed off to American men! I did not date a non-Indian guy until I was 28 or so and then I realized what I had been missing. I have the same values as you; no moving in, no live-in, and no premarital sex, which is actually a stronger restriction than just no meaningless sex. Oh and I don't drink. I have met some American guys who have all the same values and are a closer match for me than many desis...it hasn't worked out with anyone yet, but basically what I am saying is that it all depends on the person.

 

I was very sad when it didn't work out with the last guy as he was a perfect match for me on values, which is very rare.

[annie24]

Something I am wondering tinu -- if you have 12 months left on your phd, but you are corresponding with men halfway accross the country and with to marry within 3-6 months, how is this going to work? Even if you do hit it off with this guy, he's not going to move from Chicago for you. You would move for him, but you have 1 year left.

 

I would not be so offended by income questions if you are asking them the same thing.

[Bergamot]

Can you mention in your profile basics that you are a student or studying Ph.D? Like, what do you have in the "occupation" field? Have you mentioned anything there?

 

If you clearly specify that you are a student then nobody is going to ask you finance related questions right?

[LAYAAN]

Hey Marsh,

Sorry, I was mistaken. I am not a free member of Shaadi. I was never registered there. I am currently a free member of Jeevansathi. Sorry about my confusion.

[LAYAAN]

Can you mention in your profile basics that you are a student or studying Ph.D? Like, what do you have in the "occupation" field? Have you mentioned anything there?

 

If you clearly specify that you are a student then nobody is going to ask you finance related questions right?

Yes Bergamot, the Qs in marriage market defy logic.

I have mentioned already in my profile that I'm a student. The reason why they ask finance-related Qs is because they want to know yesterday how much money I can make... sorry, how much worth liability I'm.

[LAYAAN]

Something I am wondering tinu -- if you have 12 months left on your phd, but you are corresponding with men halfway accross the country and with to marry within 3-6 months, how is this going to work? Even if you do hit it off with this guy, he's not going to move from Chicago for you. You would move for him, but you have 1 year left.

 

I would not be so offended by income questions if you are asking them the same thing.

Oh no, I'm not asking them about how much money they make. I ask them about what are their expectations in term of salary, job of a woman. I have never asked a man about his income.

 

You are right about the 1st part. I've made it clear already that this is the phase I'm in. I can get married but I can't move. He knows that already. He has told me that he won't be moving. I said okay. Now if he still wants to meet, fine, if he doesn't thats cool too.

[LAYAAN]

hmm... I see. Yes, you have a lot of "desi" values. Good for you. Yes, I agree with what you are saying. You will have a better luck with your type of American men than desis. Desis are worse these days. They are a step ahead of everyone. They think thats what life in USA is about. Drinking, partying, hook-ups, changing girls, oh and sex, lots of it.

[penelope13]

I have a question in regards to the arranged marriages: if for whatever reason either one of you finds out (after you are married) that it really doesn't work, do you have the possibility of divorce, or is this a big no-no?

 

The reason why I am asking: since it is unlikely that after 3-4 months you are choosing a partner solely based on the intensity of your feelings, but more based on compatability and common goals, I can imagine that once you have married (i.e. reached what seems currently your primary goal), you might be less anxious. Taking into account how global the world is becoming and how many people we do meet throughout our lives, it is quite possible that you might meet someone with whom you fall madly in love, something that you currently don't even imagine that it is possible. It's already a challenge in the western culture not to be attracted to someone else one day, even if your marriage started off with someone who you were convinced of loving like no one else.

 

But if you are married to someone who is 'comfortable', a friend it might be all the more tempting if you all of a sudden experience this very deep and intense feelings - would you not feel that you are missing out on something rather unique, or would you (this is a general you, anyone on this thread) honor the partner that you chose through the arranged marriage route?

[LAYAAN]

absolutely... people get divorced then. It was considered a taboo before. Now, its just a regular thing.

 

Sure, I would feel like I've missed out on a lot. I may get divorced then. Yes, if I had kids by then I would feel like I made a great compromise/adjustment by having kids with this man.

My American friend had been constantly telling me "You need to let go of this anxiety. You must learn to live your life the way you want it. If that means not wanting to have kids right away, state that clearly. You are running around like a chicken. I'm afraid what if you do get married in all this rush, you may wake up one day to find out that you really could have been happy with someone else. What then?" I remember feeling very scared at that time. I just sat like a dumb striken person. I feel the same way now, reading your post.

 

I don't know what to do anymore. I wish I can take some pill to stop thinking about marriage for a year. I think I'm speeding in wrong direction ... towards self-destruction.

[LAYAAN]

Ignore my post if I've sayed this before Penny...

The reason why I'm considering only Indian men is because I'm so focused on marriage. My fear is this - If I get together with an American man (by that I mean any man who thinks a little more about marriage and wants to date 1-2 years and then get married, etc.) and if things don't work then I'm very scared to face my broken heart. I'm scared that I'll waste time: 2 yrs dating +1 year grieving, healing... I'll be 34-35 then. I won't find any man in Indian arranged marriage system to marry at that age. The longer you wait in that market, the worse your chances to get married. I will really go nuts and probably kill myself then. This is the real reason. I don't know what to do.

[penelope13]

Do you have the possibility of counseling, preferable with someone of Indian background?

[marshmlofluff]

Ignore my post if I'm saying this again Penny...

The reason why I'm considering only Indian men is because I'm so focused on marriage. My fear is this - If I get together with an American man (by that I mean any man who thinks a little more about marriage and wants to date 1-2 years and then get married, etc.) and if things don't work then I'm very scared to face my broken heart. I'm scared that I'll waste time 2 yrs dating +1 year grieving, healing... I'll be 34-35 then. I wont find any man in Indian arranged marriage system to marry. The longer you wait in that market, the worse your chances to get married. I will really go nuts then and probably kill myself. This is the real reason. I don't know what to do.

 

I had all the same fears you do...it is funny to hear someone in the same situation as me, because I thought I was the only one. It is why I was 27 when I had my first date with a non-Indian guy even though I was born and raised here. And yes, my fears came true; I had my heart broken a few times, wasted a few years. (You can read my other threads for the most recent episode). So I don't know what to say.

 

Dating non-Indian guys vs. Indian requires a 100% different mindset. It is very difficult to do both at the same time; one feels schizophrenic. The American guys don't like my relative lack of sex and relationship experience; the Indian guys think I have had too much. Things you are expected to do in one culture are taboo in the other.

 

That said, I would still say to keep an open mind. In the end, it all depends on the particular person. I have seen many 34-35 year olds get married under both systems.

[penelope13]

So if even in the arranged scenario, divorces become more accepted, i.e. more frequent, what is the real advantage then? It's not more of an advantage/ safety than a western marriage or a romantic relationship. I'd even claim that a marriage/ relationship that at a certain point went through an intense emotional phase has much more chance of lasting even when facing difficulties.

 

I am not trying to scare you, but I think your motivation of wanting the marriage so much is driven by a huge fear of being alone. I have a number of friends from other cultures where arranged marriages are the customary way, but all the people I have encountered who went through this had a very different mind set than what I can gather from your threads.

[marshmlofluff]

So if even in the arranged scenario, divorces become more accepted, i.e. more frequent, what is the real advantage then? It's not more of an advantage/ safety than a western marriage or a romantic relationship. I'd even claim that a marriage/ relationship that at a certain point went through an intense emotional phase has much more chance of lasting even when facing difficulties.

 

It is not taboo any more, but it is still probably very rare relative to the West. I don't know the statistics, and India is a nation with lots of subcultures so things very from community to community--but in my entire extended family of 300+ people, I can only think of one annulment and two divorces.

 

Tinu's sentiments are actually quite common, I think. I have two cousins who were 36 and 39 when they respectively married and were expressing exactly the same feelings.

 

I will also add that Indian women are sometimes reluctant to date the Western way because there is (or at least there has been) a stigma in the Indian community on having failed relationships. People have told me things like "don't marry that guy, he had a girlfriend." A lot of the elder members of the Indian community came here in the 1950's or 1960's and hold to the values of India from those times; India has changed, but they haven't.

[LAYAAN]

Do you have the possibility of counseling, preferable with someone of Indian background?

There is counseling available, but not with someone that has Indian background. Why do you ask?

[penelope13]

Because you are experiencing so much angst and anxiety, that I believe it would be beneficial for you to learn coping mechanisms to deal with these things. I am not sure given your current emotional state if you are able to make a decision that will make you happy in the longterm. Maybe arranged marriage is really what is best for you, however I don't think you have the right attitude currently to go through the process. On one side you want it so much, but on the other side there is always something very early on that upsets/ annoys you, which often sounds a bit like self sabotage. Thus I am not sure if you truly know what you want yourself. As I said before, nothing wrong with what you want, but maybe you don't employ the best strategy to get there. Growing a thicker skin would be one thing, finishing your PhD with as little stress as possible is another, sorting out your visa is a third. I don't see you taking care about all these things at the same time without running yourself down due to a feeling of being overwhelmed

[LAYAAN]

Yes, thank you Penelope.

I appreciate your patience that you are still reading my posts and guiding me the best way you can. I'm myself getting tired of reading my posts and this junky thoughts going in my brain.

As I mentioned in my post or journal somewhere; you, Annie, the senior pharmacist I worked with, my mom, 3-4 of my close, trusted girlfriends all are saying the same thing,

1) Take care of your health. (I recently had an accident. I was hit by the car at multiple places on my body. I'm only recently starting to feel better in terms of reduced neck pain and dizziness. I still can't walk very well and need therapy for that. I've gained weight due to no exercise and upset stomach due to long-term therapy using pain medications)

2) stay focused on your PhD and finish it.

3) While you are in your PhD program, study for pharmacy boards and pass 'em.

According to them, I'm so stressed at this time that by considering marriage and running after men, I'm only killing myself. Even if a man says yes to me at this time, my friends believe that I have no emotional or mental capacity to make the right decision. As a result, even if I get married, they are worried whether the marriage would stay put.

So, all in all, it looks like currently not even thinking about marriage is the most helpful and healthy thing I can do for myself.