"Who Dies?"

[Dagless]

When I say that grief is selfish, I guess a better word would be self-serving.

 

I don't think that words like "selfish" or "self-serving" are right to use when talking about grief. Would you say that love was self-serving? I sincerely hope not, and grief would not exist without love, I strongly believe that.

 

Sometimes I feel so whittled down, it's hard to not feel toppled by my losses.

 

But you are very right, and I think CAD's point is well-taken. I think the key for me is thinking that even if I've been whittled down to the raw materials, as long as I have those, there is always something to be made.

 

Yes, take the glass. Instead of looking at what is so fragile about it, look at what is indestructible about it. "You'll never change what has been and gone." good or bad this is true. The past will always be indestructible, it's only the future we can change and one day how we move in to the future will be all we leave behind.

[ErikT]

Love is not self serving, as love is directed towards the person you love. When that person leaves/dies/moves on, the grief you feel is not directed towards the person, but rather inward at the loss you have expierenced.

[Dagless]

Love is not self serving, as love is directed towards the person you love. When that person leaves/dies/moves on, the grief you feel is not directed towards the person, but rather inward at the loss you have expierenced.

 

But grief is not directed anywhere, grief is what you feel when your love has nowhere to go because love is use to flowing between people. You grieve the loss and you feel the loss because of love. The greater the love then the greater the loss then the greater the grief.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes, take the glass. Instead of looking at what is so fragile about it, look at what is indestructible about it. "You'll never change what has been and gone." good or bad this is true. The past will always be indestructible, it's only the future we can change and one day how we move in to the future will be all we leave behind.

 

Thank you for that! That's definitely a different way of seeing the thing about the glass...that it existed, it happpened, and that's ineradicable...I really like that......

 

But grief is not directed anywhere, grief is what you feel when your love has nowhere to go because love is use to flowing between people. You grieve the loss and you feel the loss because of love. The greater the love then the greater the loss then the greater the grief.

 

I agree with this completely...

 

I think I know what Erik's trying to say, though...and maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but I think he's saying perhaps that we don't grieve for anyone else's SAKE but our own. That the person who has died does not receive any benefit from our tears (wherever they are), it is us going through it to find our way through, for ourselves.

[Dagless]

I think I know what Erik's trying to say, though...and maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but I think he's saying perhaps that we don't grieve for anyone else's SAKE but our own. That the person who has died does not receive any benefit from our tears (wherever they are), it is us going through it to find our way through, for ourselves.

 

Yes but that can be said about life in general, it's an individual experience. They are your feelings for you to feel and you alone. You feel how you feel, there is no logic to them. That is what thoughts are for, it's all part of the equilibrium that makes us human.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes but that can be said about life in general, it's an individual experience. They are your feelings for you to feel and you alone. You feel how you feel, there is no logic to them. That is what thoughts are for, it's all part of the equilibrium that makes us human.

 

True, but love, while experienced within us as well, is also an action of giving of oneself for the sake of another...yes, it's self-oriented, too (because hey, love returns to us like a boomerang), but it's got an element of giving (even sacrificing).

 

As you said so rightly, grieving is the feeling of no longer being able to give and express outwardly anymore....I think that's what hurts the most, feeling that you want to give something that can no longer be given to someone else, it's now turned within for yourself. I haven't been through it as you have, to know firsthand, but this is what my empathy brings me to feel as well...

[ErikT]

Yes but that can be said about life in general, it's an individual experience. They are your feelings for you to feel and you alone. You feel how you feel, there is no logic to them. That is what thoughts are for, it's all part of the equilibrium that makes us human.

 

Thank you for that! That's definitely a different way of seeing the thing about the glass...that it existed, it happpened, and that's ineradicable...I really like that......

 

 

 

I agree with this completely...

 

I think I know what Erik's trying to say, though...and maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but I think he's saying perhaps that we don't grieve for anyone else's SAKE but our own. That the person who has died does not receive any benefit from our tears (wherever they are), it is us going through it to find our way through, for ourselves.

 

 

Don't be putting words in my mouth!!! (Just kidding!) You are 100% correct.

 

Yes but that can be said about life in general, it's an individual experience. They are your feelings for you to feel and you alone. You feel how you feel, there is no logic to them. That is what thoughts are for, it's all part of the equilibrium that makes us human.

 

But your emotions are driven by your subconscious thoughts and your conscious thoughts are driven by your emotions. Others do not feel your feelings (love), correct, but your feelings of love do have an effect on those that you love. With grief (after a loss), the feeling is not extended to the one that you grieve over.

 

Who other than ourselves feel our grief? Again, grief is a totally valid and necessary emotion. However, it only serves a purpose to the person expierencing it, thus it is self-serving (and self -preserving.)

[Dagless]

But your emotions are driven by your subconscious thoughts and your conscious thoughts are driven by your emotions. Others do not feel your feelings (love), correct, but your feelings of love do have an effect on those that you love. With grief (after a loss), the feeling is not extended to the one that you grieve over.

 

Who other than ourselves feel our grief? Again, grief is a totally valid and necessary emotion. However, it only serves a purpose to the person expierencing it, thus it is self-serving (and self -preserving.)

 

Grief is a consequence of love, if we did not love then we would not grieve. Like all emotions (and grief is a mixture of a lot of them) it is self-contained and is as individual as your own out look and experiences. It is simple something you have to live though, it has no purpose other than to honour the love that we feel for those who we have lost.

 

If you believe that grief is self-serving and self -preserving then I can't argue with that, each man has to believe what he believes and it is what a man believes that will get him through his darkest hour. At least that is what I believe.

[Dagless]

True, but love, while experienced within us as well, is also an action of giving of oneself for the sake of another...yes, it's self-oriented, too (because hey, love returns to us like a boomerang), but it's got an element of giving (even sacrificing).

 

Yes but Love is one of those thing that can not be classed (In my mind anyway) as an emotion because it becomes almost a state of being, I can understand when they say "love is a form of madness". I mean what else would make you want to live for a million years but at the same time you would sacrifice yourself in a second without even questioning it.

[tiredofvampires]

Yes but Love is one of those thing that can not be classed (In my mind anyway) as an emotion because it becomes almost a state of being, I can understand when they say "love is a form of madness". I mean what else would make you want to live for a million years but at the same time you would sacrifice yourself in a second without even questioning it.

 

Oh, I totally love that!

 

And I have to say yeah, I myself am competely on board with the questionable nature of "love." It's an emotion in common parlance, but as one of my favorite quotes says:

 

"Love is not a thing to understand.

Love is not a thing to feel.

Love is not a thing to give and receive.

Love is a thing only to become

And eternally be."

~Sri Chinmoy

 

(Some will remember that as being in my signature.)

 

So yes, it's a state of being as I see it, too....

 

I think what I was trying to say is that in the grieving aspect of love...and wasn't this what you were saying, too...is that it can't be expressed anymore to the person who has died, or used to benefit that person anymore, and that's part of the grief. So while you are still very much actively loving, and that part is fully engaged as an extension of your being (and even theirs), being able to affect them in some way with your love is what has stopped.

 

So I think all these things we are saying can all be true at once -- the ideas don't actually contradict eachother, as I see it.

 

I think the words "self-serving" or self-preserving though bring up connotations that for some people have a negative association of egotism. Sometimes terminology breaks down...though I would say self-preservation and serving ones own heart by grieving are nothing but good and right, if we are to use those words.