question for the boys. staying friends with a boy who wanted more

[grymoire]

Hi,

 

My strong advice for you is to DROP the idea of friendship with him. This is not what you want to hear but unfortunately that is the right thing to do.

 

Trust me, I have been in this situation and it is very difficult.

 

He will always be over-analyzing your actions and behavior and hold on to any glimmer of hope (even if you don't lead him on). If you like a guy and he turns you down I am very sure that you will not stay as friends with him. It is really not healthy for both of you. It will break his heart once you eventually start dating some other guy.

 

I must admit, if we were friends it would not be quite as equals. He has a lot to teach me in some ways, but I still feel he's not my equal, and which is partially why I'm not and never have been really attracted to him.

 

Can you please explain this? What do you mean when you say he is not your equal? And how does it impact attraction?

 

Also, why do you want to be friends with some one that you don't respect? That really sounds odd. Friends usually like and respect each other. If you don't respect some one you wouldn't want to spend time with them.

[crippledsoul225]

Yes if you don't respect him then the least you could do is end this friendship (if you even want to call it that). I'm sure he can find himself a new set of friends who will respect him and love him for who he is.

[Lucy_lou]

Firstly, I appreciate everybody's kindness in defending him and saying that it's mean of me to say that I don't respect him. Maybe I should say adios for good. I guess that's why I'm here trying to figure it out, so I do appreciate your feedback. When I say that I don't respect him, I don't mean that I disrespect him. I do care about him, and like him but I don't feel we're intellectual equals in the areas that I consider important. But I still value our friendship (if as you say, that's what it is), but only to a limited extent. Nobody is perfect, and I accept that he's not. I still value him and like him for what it is. I don't know, does it sound arrogant for me to say I don't consider him an equal? aren't there people out there that you don't consider your equals? I'm usually drawn to people who I admire, but occasionally I get caught up with nice young boys who look up to me, and I guess sometimes I stick around, but I'm often conflicted as to whether or not I should. The rest of my friends (though I don't have many) are people who I admire and look up to. I often feel like the small one. Maybe there is no such thing as equal, as ideal as it would be. As for me, I definitely WOULD want to retain a friendship with a person who had rejected me, (except for one, now I think of it) but unfortunately none of the people who have rejected me have pursued a friendship. they possibly assume that they need to leave me alone to heal, but they're wrong. Sometimes loving someone means simply wanting them in your life one way or another, because they're great.

[Batya33]

You also were highly critical of his romantic attitude towards you as if it were weak or lame on his part.

 

I am friends with people who I respect - I don't expect all my friends to be my equal in every aspect of my personality/talents/abilities - and vice versa - one of my best friends is a wonderful painter and I can't draw - another is great at math and I am math phobic - but in general I have to respect the person. Your response that you don't disrespect him sounds like a bit of backpedaling.

 

It's not surprising that you would get these responses considering how you described your opinions of someone you recently hooked up/had sex with and want as a friend for what looks like not the most caring or considerate motives.

[CaptainPlanet]

You can its really up to you what you want to do. If you flirt with him and act sexual or encourage him in anyway that there might be more, then you are a horrible person.

[Lucy_lou]

I've never flirted with him. We're mates. We had sex years ago, after being friends for about a year, and then went about 5 years with no sex, being just mates again. Neither of us flirt with each other. It's not that kind of relationship, and I've never felt any sparks. It's just nice and cosy and comfortable. The last time I saw him, we were drinking, I was tired, I ended up in his bed we cuddled, and talked, and I can't remember what we said exactly, but I let him know I didn't want to cross the line into sexual territory with him. I then got up and left, feeling bad that I even cuddled him, but glad that nothing more happened.

 

Batya, I don't think I'm backpedaling, just clarifying. I mean, this is an anonymous forum, I have no actual motive to defend what you think of me. I have explained how I feel about him, how I like him, but how my respect or admiration of him is limited etc. I'm just saying how I feel. I would like to know what you think I've done, said or thought which is unkind? Please, if you could give me a practical answer as to what a nice person would have done, that would be appreciated. Do you think I shouldn't have ever slept with him? it really was a long time ago. Do you think I should have not stayed friends with him? (he's had several girlfriends during this time by the way, and I've met them, all good). Is it mean of me to not respect him as much as I do other people? or is it mean of me to retain a friendship with him whilst not having as much respect for him as I do others? I'm confused as to what you're trying to teach me. But that's what I'm here for. To learn, to gain some perspective. I mean, you can't make yourself respect a person who you don't respect. My reasons for not having high respect for him are that he's a little immature, and a little bit too boysy for me. But obviously I like him or I wouldn't be talking about him and trying to figure out how to proceed with him. Thank you.

[CaptainPlanet]

Nah I didn't expect that you would. Just saying a lot of young girls don't seem to realise.

 

On another note I don't want a spark myself, something warm and cosy would do just fine.

 

I don't think there is any reason you can't continue to be friends if you enjoy his company and you don't encourage him sexually, I think being in bed is a bit far personally. If it were me I admit I would definently try someone if a girl is on my bed with me its a given really.

[tylercdurden2004]

this is the second post of yours on this forum of late advocating segregation... I think the drama that can sometimes accompany opposite sex friendship (between straights) is something worth transcending, not avoiding... just saying

 

I dont advocate segregation however I do find it a bit odd when someone seeks out the friendship of the opposite sex. I only what it is about the opposite sex that someone could gain over their own sex that makes them seek out a friendship with the opposite sex. I am sure there are many reasons. I am not sure what you mean by trascending?

[Lucy_lou]

I never said I specifically wanted male friends. I just want friends. And anyway, I think it's healthy to have a balance, not to mention that males are half the population. And if I'm going to date boys in the future, then it would not be good if I had not had many male friends, as I'd be quite naieve about guys. I wanted to be friends with this guy because we got on well, have a bond and stuff in common.

[CaptainPlanet]

Theres nothing wrong with having female friends but there has to be some clear boundaries.

 

A woman that is not my girlfriend does not belong on my bed unless she wants to have sex with me. She should not be snuggling up to me and cuddling either, that is a privillege reserved for girlfriends and women who will have sex with me.

[Lucy_lou]

yeah, it was dumb.

[Batya33]

"But he's reduced himself to a puddle of emotional, sexual neediness."

 

you asked me what else you wrote that was unkind about him in addition to you feeling superior to him in other areas. Particularly since you bedded down with your so-called platonic friend, it's a little bizarre that then you would accuse him of this. Wow.

 

In my experience, friends don't tease each other as you did - the drinking is no excuse - you chose to drink and you chose the consequences. Obviously if your priority were to build a platonic friendship and maintain boundaries you wouldn't have behaved that way. My guess is you enjoy the ego stroking and attention of a man who desires you - and that makes for a very imbalanced "friendship" in addition to your disdain for him.

[Lucy_lou]

Batya, you're jumping to conclusions, jumping down my neck, judging me. This is an advice forum, and by nature is limited to what can be expessed in words. I think you would do well to remind yourself that you can never KNOW the real situation, so perhaps your replies could be worded in a more humble way where you recognise the limitations of a forum, and stop making so many assumptions with which you have judged me and my intentions, harshly.

 

I am here because I care about this guy and wanted advice on how to proceed with him, and whether to retain a frienship, imperfect as it was. You've been overly judgemental. (Just a bit of feedback from me).

[Batya33]

Thanks for sharing. I have sincere doubts from what you have written that you care about this person's best interests. You asked me what I thought was unkind and I quoted you.

 

As far as the limitations on words, you are judging me by what I write, yes?

[Lucy_lou]

any other views from other posters welcome. Lucy_lou

[JadedStar]

YOu don't have respect for him and he has feelings for you obviously...

 

Those two points alone would tell me that a friendship with this guy is not wise.

 

I have only skimmed thru the four pages but everything i have read leads me to the conclusion that it would be better for him if you did not retain the friendship.

[Lucy_lou]

You're probably right. It seems like quite a loss for both of us, but it's really not fair on him. It's hard to tell how much of his interest in me was due to wanting someone (he said he just wanted someone, for company, cause he's used to always being in a relationship), and how much he actually had feelings for me. I know he cared about me but I always assumed it was as a friend. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't.

 

When I say I don't have respect for him, it doesn't mean I don't have respect for his feelings though. It just means I see him as a bit of a child. But I do care about him. Which is why I'm here trying to work out how to proceed.

 

I think now, after all of everyone's help and advice that I'll not contact him, even though just a few days ago we were excitedly saying how we should retain contact now that we're in different towns. But since we left on not so friendly terms (with me basically rejecting him), I guess that possibility of a friendship has been soiled.

[grymoire]

Hi,

 

I am not trying to be rude but to me it is very very clear that there is no friendship here. You are not this guy's friend. He is just someone that you use to stroke your ego and feel good about yourself. I am sorry if it is harsh but I guess that is the reality. Your tone clearly implies that you are just using this guy to boost your fragile ego. What this implies is that you have very low self-esteem. People with good self-esteem will not have condescending attitude and will not feel that they are superior to others. Especially in friendships.

 

He has reduced himself to a puddle of emotional and sexual neediness??? How would you feel if a guy that you loved broke up with you? and how would you feel if your friends laugh at you for feeling sad following the break-up? Clearly you do not have any empathy or respect for other peoples' feelings.

 

I also think that you are a very controlling person. Everything in this relationship is according to your terms. You will sleep with him and then you will not have sex with him for a long time. If he develops feelings for you then he is in a puddle of emotions and sexual neediness. You will hop onto his bed and snuggle with him but he is not supposed to cross the sexual territory. And after doing all this you shamelessly tell that he is not your equal. Honestly YOU are not HIS equal!! He may be boyish and immature but I don't think he is cheap and shameless like you.

 

Another thing.. You said you are friends with people that you admire and look up to right? May be they think of you in the same way as you think of this guy? They might be thinking that you are not their equal right? They are all superior to you...

 

You have done that guy a great favor by rejecting a relationship. Now do one more favor by not continuing the friendship. He deserves some one better.

[rs.dallaire]

Getting intimate with him against was not cool at all considering that he likes you and you don't.

 

Why would you do something like that? Women can get laid anywhere, anytime, by just about any guy.

 

If you are not interested be a good friend - leave him alone.

[Lucy_lou]

you two join Batya in the common claim that I'm being heartless, so I guess I'm going to have to consider what you're all saying. (I told Batya to get off my back, but now you two, jeezus!)

 

Firstly, I disagree with the accusation that I'm using him to stroke my ego. It's just not true. I've always wanted to just be friends, and when he's hinted at being interested in me, it's been a drag, not an ego boost. After all, my ego is more centred around my ability to gain friends, not to have boys fancy me. So maybe that's where my insecurities have lead me to do the wrong thing.

 

I agree that I shouldn't have ended up in his bed. I agree, and I'm going to explain the situation in a bit more detail, but before you tell me not to use excuses, just hear me that I say I know it was a mistake. But anyway, here goes. I was at his house, we were both drinking and maybe a bit drunk, he went to his room, later I went to his room to get my bag and say goodbye to him, he was on his bed, he wanted to have deep and meaningfuls, I was physically inclined towards collapsing due to the drunkenness, and the idea was that we would just lay down and have a final sharing before I left.

 

We never kissed or anything, (he tried), but we were in bed and closer than we should have been. Most of the conversation revolved around creating a bit of closure about any hopes he had about us being together. It mostly revolved around me rejecting him. But I know it should not have taken place in his bed. Once I felt physically capable of getting up, I got up, said goodbye, and left.

 

Anyway, back to your comments. Gyrmore, you wrote "Another thing.. You said you are friends with people that you admire and look up to right? May be they think of you in the same way as you think of this guy? They might be thinking that you are not their equal right? They are all superior to you... "

you might have meant that as a stab, but actually I agree. I generally feel smaller than all my other friends. They might not see it that way, but I do. I usually try to be friends with people I respect, but that respect is often accompanied by admiration and sometimes feeling smaller and inferior. I know it's not ideal, but that's my experience. And I long to grow and learn, so I endure the inequality and feeling of inferiority in order to be near the ones I look up to.

 

As for the offense people have taken to my blunt language that indicates a sense of superiority that I have towards this boy, fair enough. I would never show it in public. This is an anonymous forum. Offensive as it sounds when you articulate it as I have, inequality exists. If I feel underchallenged by his conversation on some topics, then I will feel that he is not my equal in that area. Does it make me heartless? or does it just mean I have a brain which knows when it is and isn't being fed. My friends (the ones I look up to) let me know when my views are understimulating. It's just how things are in my world. Isn't that common? or are all my relationships super lopsided?

 

Please, if one of you could help me here and answer the question of how you would act in a situation in which you met a nice boy or girl who you had lots of common interests with, who was nice, but who you didn't feel was very mature in ways that are important to you. Would you chose not to have anything to do with them on that one fault? or would you love them for what they were?

 

You were also right about me being controlling with him (although I think it's a bit over the top for you to call me a 'very controlling person.' (chill out).I guess the only way I knew of staying friends with him was on my terms. I'd rather be controlling, and friendly and warm within the boundaries I've set than to be more relaxed and end up annoyed and resentful. But now, I guess you're getting me to consider whether that kind of relationship is fair. I guess I haven't had many equal friendships in the past so perhaps I'm just replicating. Same thing in my love life. I've never had a boyfriend or a girlfriend. All the people who are interested in me, I'm not interested in, and all the people I've been attracted to haven't wanted to be with me. Clearly something's not right. That's why I'm here getting your opinions.

 

Back when I had my fling with him (quite early in the friendship, and at his instigation), I was going through a phase where I was into just getting sex wherever, mainly because I'm not really girlfriend material, but I still like sex, just like guys do. It was consensual. It was only brief, and since then we've remained mates. Don't you have any mates that you think are a bit immature, but you love them anyway?

 

I find all your responses a bit startling, as I had no idea that I was doing anything cruel throughout any of this. I've just been honest with myself about what I wanted when. When I wanted to have sex with him, I did. We both agreed that we would make a bad couple, he got a nice girlfriend, we stayed mates, I don't get why I'm supposed to be such an evil person? Please tell me what I should have done if you're going to tell me anything, rather than tell me what a bad person I am. I do appreaciate your help, even if it does upset me sometimes.

 

I guess I have to admit that maybe I'm just so lonely and desperate for friends, that I retain friendships which I shouldn't. I have another sort of 'friend' with a similar dynamic. We always have very colourful conversations and stuff, but I think he gets more out of them than me. He's younger, and thinks I'm smart and hot but I don't feel the same, and next time he contacts me (to hang out as friends), I might best pass. I was unsure of how much I should have to do with him. After enduring this thread, I'm thinking I should have nothing more to do with him. Stop being in any way his friend. I'm just lonely.

[grymoire]

Hi Lucy,

 

First I apologize if I sounded harsh. But you have to understand that when you come to an anonymous forum you will most likely hear things that you do not want to hear, even if it is the truth. Batya and I did not secretly agree to collaborate to rant against you. It's just that we both share the same opinions in your case. Also please understand that nobody called you as a bad person. People here are only referring to your attitude and not you as a person.

 

I really think that you are not an American. If you don't mind can you please tell me from which country you are? Your frequent usage of the terms 'superior' and 'inferior' sound very odd to me.

 

I believe that you are very interested in learning from people and hence you associate with people you consider are your superiors. By superior what exactly do you mean? Do they make more money than you? Are they more qualified, more intelligent than you? It is good that you want to learn from your friends but I do believe that that in itself is restricting you from forming meaningful relationships. You can learn from ANY BODY, regardless of their education and other qualifications. There is always some thing to learn from people. I went to a good school in New York, hold a Master's degree, and now work in the Silicon Valley in a top company earning six figure salary. Does that make me a superior person? I am not sure... Honestly I don't think so.

 

Please, if one of you could help me here and answer the question of how you would act in a situation in which you met a nice boy or girl who you had lots of common interests with, who was nice, but who you didn't feel was very mature in ways that are important to you. Would you chose not to have anything to do with them on that one fault? or would you love them for what they were?

If I met a girl, get attracted to her and share common interests with I would fall in love with her despite her immaturity. Nobody is perfect. I can keep searching for the perfect woman but I know that I will never find her. Falling in love with a person means you deeply appreciate who they are and as they are. You don't pick the good qualities and then say to yourself "ok he/she meets these criterion I am going to fall in love". It doesn't happen that way. Tomorrow you may meet a great guy and a superior one and fall in love with him. But do you think he would be 'perfect'? I doubt it. He may be mature but certainly he will have some negative qualities.

 

It is hard enough to find true love in this world. And it surprises me when you are wondering about some one just because they are a bit immature. Is that guy really that childish? I don't understand what exactly you mean by 'he is not mature'. To many women this will not be a deal-breaker. Most likely they will appreciate his personality, confidence, sense of humor and other traits and give him a chance.

 

If I feel underchallenged by his conversation on some topics, then I will feel that he is not my equal in that area. Does it make me heartless? or does it just mean I have a brain which knows when it is and isn't being fed. My friends (the ones I look up to) let me know when my views are understimulating.

From this it certainly looks like you are ruling him out because he is not your equal on the intellectual level. It looks like you want a partner who is very intelligent and smart and some one from who you can constantly learn. If that one thing is so important to you then it is obviously your choice. It is your life and you have the right to choose who you want to date. But honestly I am just way too surprised to learn that you would choose who you will fall in love with based on how stimulating and intellectual the conversations are. I am from India and back there I was a member of the "Indian Quiz Foundation". My General Knowledge is extremely good and I can hold amazing conversations on many different subjects. If I have a conversation with some one I can throw one trivia after another in a matter of minutes. But did that help me to get the girl that I loved so deeply? No. She rejected me. Why? Because she just didn't feel the same way as me. When it comes to love how you feel for the other person is more important than logical and intellectual elements. People fall in love because they are attracted to the other person and deeply appreciate their personality and character. I really doubt if any one fell in love with some one because they were intelligent. But if you feel he is not your type then of course plz don't date him.

 

I also think that apart from relationships your need to find intellectual stimulation is stopping you from getting good friends. What are friends for? Friends are people that care for you, are there when you need them, have fun with, to share your joys and sorrows. Let me ask you this - Will you stop being friends with some one because they cannot hold stimulating conversations with you but care for you very deeply? If you say 'yes' then that's the problem right there.

 

There is more to human relationships than just stimulating conversations and having the need to feed your brain. Please... give people a chance. Talk to them, have fun with them, spend time together having casual conversations, focus on having a good time, care for them, and love them as they are without judging them. Trust me. You will end up with a ton of genuine friends and soon you will also get a loving boyfriend. But if you want to rule out people because you don't feel challenged by their mediocre conversations then it is up to you. It is your life and it is your choice.

 

Good luck,

G

[Batya33]

I completely agree with the above three posters, OP, and it's somewhat interesting to me that we each arrived at the same point of view independently. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just interesting......

 

It's great that you are taking these points of view (if not mine, as well) into consideration and it might help you with the general issues you say you have in finding friends. It's really as simple that if you want a friend, you have to be a friend (or the do unto others maxim) - nothing more complicated than that.

 

I have several close friends, many good friends, I get told very often what a good friend I am BUT I am regularly faced with challenges where I have to choose, for example "being right or being close?" or acting in the best interests of a friendship by giving space even though I would like to speak to the person, and the list goes on. Some friendships are easier than others but all require some amount of effort - and humility! - to maintain closeness and get closer. To me it's worth it and I realize that to others it is not, and that's fine too.

[JadedStar]

you might have meant that as a stab, but actually I agree. I generally feel smaller than all my other friends. They might not see it that way, but I do. I usually try to be friends with people I respect, but that respect is often accompanied by admiration and sometimes feeling smaller and inferior. I know it's not ideal, but that's my experience. And I long to grow and learn, so I endure the inequality and feeling of inferiority in order to be near the ones I look up to.

 

 

Lucy i think the above is the clincher as far as you probably have serious self esteem issues that are drivers of how you interact with people. The friends you feel are superior to you get more respect than those you feel superior to.

 

Once you learn to create a balance where you feel no less or more superior than the people you interact with the quicker you will be towards your goal of finding meaningful friendships. I don't think it will happen until you manage your self esteem issues.

 

Are you in therapy? Refresh my memory...

 

In summary in my mind the people I am friends with I have chosen to be a part of my life for a variety of reasons. We may not be on the same 100% equal footing in all regards but when i think of the total package I don't find myself to be anymore superior or less than they. If i did they would probably be more of a casual aquaintence, not close friend. Surely i have friends smarter than myself but there is obviously something about me that I find that makes up for it and I don't feel any less superior to them. And i have friends that probably aren't as smart as me

but they have other qualities that more than make up for that.

 

The thing about healthy self esteem, however, is that you don't walk away feeling superior to anyone. I have found people who do this are the ones who seem to suffer the most from lack of confidence but they hide it underneath a shell of almost arrogance...then you have folks who are the opposite. They don't have the arrogance per se however are still not confident, but they feel that anyone who EXHIBITS confidence is arrogant when in reality the person was not being arrogant at all, just confident. The person who lacks confidence can't always distinguish between other confident people or people who are just arrogant.

 

Not sure if that makes a bit of sense, hopefully you get what I am saying.

[rs.dallaire]

I'm sorry but I have to be direct here.

 

I think what you did was extremely selfish and if I were the guy and realized what happened, I would be extremely pissed off.

 

Whether you realize it or not, you used him to satisfy whatever mood you were in and have no long term perspective on the relationship. Friendship is a long term relationship and you are acting on impulsive urges.

 

And don't use the alcohol excuse with me, I don't buy it.

 

A man and a woman can't be friends if there is attraction. Period. If you insist on being friends with him then I say you are desperate.

[Batya33]

I think a friendship if possible if the person who is attracted has decided that he or she can deal with the attraction and prioritize the friendship - and not act on the attraction. Usually that is if the attraction is weak, or, if it is strong, fades enough so that friendship is possible. Also the person who is not attracted (if that is the case) must be extremely self- aware and self-honest that he or she is not motivated by the "ego stroking" of the other person's attraction as far as wanting the friendship.