LaHermes

Difference between the "slow" and the deliberately obtuse: "...deliberately obtuse people know exactly what the other person means but they will pretend as if they don’t, just to generate a reaction or start an argument." Also known as Sea-lioning a kind of harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate". Sound familiar? You got it Wise. I know you are being ironic. That's what the deliberately obtuse would try on. "I don't get it. Can you clarify this? " More: Sea-lioning: "A subtle form of trolling involving "bad-faith" questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum." Now does it sound familiar?

Deliberate obtuseness. Lot of it about.

"All Along the Watchtower" Bryan Ferry . Extraordinary guitar by Oliver Thompson.

You can have no idea, Dias!! LOL.

Aaah Dias Efharistó ya ta kalá sas lóya! People sometimes underestimate me, to their cost. I fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

Kind ItsallGrand!! Hermes is the messenger of the gods. Also, the god of traders, travellers, and athletes. The guy with the wings on his feet. He also takes us across into the next world. No idea why the fashion house took him on as their trade name. So have a number of other businesses, among them courier/transport companies.

Blue Velvet. Again.

"I am one of your ENA friends :)" I know you are Dias, bless your heart.

Everyone is against me. At work, in the store, out on the street, the family. None of them know how much I have to put up with. Not me. I am just describing the sort of stuff constant complainers say. So annoying. That aside and since you mention it Dias, the ENA "friends" would do well do declare themselves as such . LOL.

Everyone is against me. At work, in the store, out on the street, the family. None of them know how much I have to put up with.

Not just today, but always. People who are always complaining about something.

Gosh, was away a few days, and I see almost 3000 views of this thread. I will say nothing more. I don't like being flamed either. I will merely say that any organisation (virtual or IRL) should be open to suggestions, and yes, even some criticism. To me that seems fairly simple. Anyhow, I wish the best to Firelily in her endeavours.

FL. Indeed there are people who are very vulnerable when arriving for help. Don't we all have moments of vulnerability. Some deal better than others with bereavement and grief, and the inevitable sorrows that life is liable to visit upon us. I lost my parents many years ago. I still miss them, and not a day goes by but I don't remember them. I've lost other very dearly loved people. There was one year when I seemed to be going to a funeral every other day. I am grateful to the people who said the right (kindly) things to me at those times. So yes, and not wishing to go round in circles, but there are and will be OPs presenting who have underlying mental health problems, which can become more or less evident as the thread progresses. They are different from the more robust or resilient poster who appears seeking some advice. Just saying, that's all.

I just wish to remark, in passing, that I first came upon this forum in 2010. How fast the years go! I can be away, for months on end, due to work/travel commitments. I have never once said that this is less than a very good forum. I hope that, maybe, I have helped, supported and even cheered up a few along the way. I still say that the OP or any OP is entitled to open a thread. I keep saying this: if a place (real or virtual) can't take a little criticism, warranted or not, from time to time, then what else can I say. Even the very best places get criticism sometimes. Not the end of the world. May I just add that my door is always open (and there's a candle in the window) should anyone ever feel like PMing me. I promise you, I won't bite! lol

Now you're talking Camber!Touchy lot those hornets. Will sting even if no provocation.

Look. I don't think it is a big deal to look for reviews on anything, positive and negative. A kind of mundane example: I want to buy a garment online. I see the images, the product information, but, I also want to see the customer reviews. There will be a mixture of positive and negative. If all reviews are negative, then I should be wary. I don't think anyone said the ENA reviews are all negative (in fact I posted above one positive review, from a newspaper.). There are times when I am not on this forum for months on end, due to work commitments involving travel. I cannot remember when I first joined, but it was a long time ago. I do so hope that when I could that I contributed in some small way to helping some posters on here. That said, I see a 95% of well-intentioned on here. The other 5% best to ignore.

Well, well well. Now this is a lovely review. From The Guardian newspaper. "Why I love... Enotalone True. In times of crisis, one cannot dismiss the importance of introspection. But sometimes you just want someone to entertain your self-indulgence, and enotalone understands this. It's the virtual online forum where the heartbroken, confused and disillusioned join hands and guide each other through the turbulent storms of their own personal dramas. The site is updated every minute by another soul somewhere in the world who has found their dreams crushed, husband cheating or girlfriend wanting out. It covers every form of misery; reminding you that whatever wall you've hit in life, you are indeed not the only one. So hold tight. A recently divorced 58-year-old in Milwaukee will preach lessons of love to a recently dumped teen in Croydon. The 15-step formula of finding happiness will be debated from Antigua to Australia, while the more discerning explain how to win the love of your life back via the "push-pull method". The best thing about enotalone is its staunch belief that the irrationality of love, life and human behaviour can be explained through the bitter experiences of others and a dose of good, old- fashioned American therapy. While the world's disillusioned seek advice from each other, the professional therapists lurk on the sidelines monitoring the most prominent sectors of discussion which are used in wider social research. Enotalone is a personal agony aunt, without the shrink's fees or the pain of deeper introspection. In today's fast-paced world, sometimes we just can't bore our friends with any more of our own melodrama. So thank goodness there's someone out there who can't wait to listen. True. In times of crisis, one cannot dismiss the importance of introspection. But sometimes you just want someone to entertain your self-indulgence, and enotalone understands this. It's the virtual online forum where the heartbroken, confused and disillusioned join hands and guide each other through the turbulent storms of their own personal dramas. The site is updated every minute by another soul somewhere in the world who has found their dreams crushed, husband cheating or girlfriend wanting out. It covers every form of misery; reminding you that whatever wall you've hit in life, you are indeed not the only one. So hold tight. A recently divorced 58-year-old in Milwaukee will preach lessons of love to a recently dumped teen in Croydon. The 15-step formula of finding happiness will be debated from Antigua to Australia, while the more discerning explain how to win the love of your life back via the "push-pull method". The best thing about enotalone is its staunch belief that the irrationality of love, life and human behaviour can be explained through the bitter experiences of others and a dose of good, old- fashioned American therapy. While the world's disillusioned seek advice from each other, the professional therapists lurk on the sidelines monitoring the most prominent sectors of discussion which are used in wider social research. Enotalone is a personal agony aunt, without the shrink's fees or the pain of deeper introspection. In today's fast-paced world, sometimes we just can't bore our friends with any more of our own melodrama. So thank goodness there's someone out there who can't wait to listen." Made me smile.

Would I be correct in saying, Lily, that you are speaking of professional assistance and work IRL? Not on here? Where are these "reviews" that you mention, Camber. Gosh, once again with feeling. The fact of finding fault with some aspect of a site (and likewise with a premises IRL, or a book, or a play, or a film) does not mean that one must leave. There is plenty that is excellent on this site, and much valuable information. Not to mention some very readable and articulate posters who are a joy to read. The fact that I might say I don't like this or that about the forum does NOT mean I must be told to "push off". Not a chance lol. Just seen your post Camber. I'll take your word for it re the reviews. But again, opinions, opinions. Still no reason to harry an OP who asks a question.

Thank you Lily. You read me right. I remember being told on here several times a very long time ago, that I was "Occam's Razor". I took it as a compliment (not sure lol). There are people here IRL who tell me I am the only sane person they know. Not sure what that says about the rest of the world. But anyway. I see and come upon people IRL in awful situations, similar to those posted on these forums. Sometimes in the course of my work. I can only point them in the direction of practical help, be it legal, therapeutic or general. I simply do not have the expertise to sit with them for hours philosophising and debating and banging on about the ins and outs of their problem. Anyhow, I've discovered that many problems do have quite simple solutions. As I said, everyone is entitled to make a point, even express dissatisfaction, and it is no harm for any organisation, IRL or online, to take on board a bit of criticism from time to time.

Gee, Camber, the week on the step must have addled your brains:friendly_wink: Do explain.

Glad to read that you hear me, Bluecastle. I am here, on an Autumn evening, disentangling what you are saying. There are more than some "off moments" on here, and certainly more than "ruffled feathers" scenarios. I will say it plain and straight. I have good eyesight, and I see unkindness, showboating at the expense of others, and not to put too fine a point on it, plain cyber-bullying in the form of snide remarks. Most certainly, there are excellent people on this site. But so many wonderful posters have left here, not because they didn't need the forum any more, but for the reasons I have just described. I just wish they would return. The OP here is perfectly entitled to have started this thread. Or any number of threads, without being harried for so doing. Anyhow, no debate. .

Precisely, Wiseman. And as I may have remarked earlier, posters here can, and do, signpost sufferers so that they can find out where to seek those services. It is to be hoped (and here I am not so optimistic) that troubled people can IRL access those services, and are in a financial position to pay for therapy and/or other treatment. Some posters may be ashamed to disclose that they come from a grim social milieu or a deprived area. Well-meant input, even if not always diplomatic, is entirely different from ganging up on someone who is in a bad place. This very minute I am seeing it on a thread. The "advisors" who do that should be ashamed of themselves.

"..... some will express things more strongly and it's more to do with tough love Absolutely agree there is nothing wrong with expressing something strongly. In fact being straightforward is a virtue IMO. But strong expression must go hand in hand with kindliness. It's no great effort to just temper even the strongest view or advice with kindliness. Both here and IRL. Snideness I cannot abide. That is more likely to drive people away than so-called toughness.

"....and a lot of them are suffering with various mental health issues. People in this category are not going to be the easiest to communicate with." I believe MK has stated the heart of the matter. Equally I believe that only mental health professionals should attend the mentally ill. Posters here may be entirely well-intentioned and wish to help, but are not trained to speak with and/or advise the mentally ill, less so when all one has got is words on a screen and no way to "read" the unfortunate person. That said the forum can be excellent for signposting people to services, and make suggestions as to best course of action. Of course, posters can advise and support those coming to the site with what can be described more as "Agony Aunt" issues, or more practical difficulties.. MK also says: (and this resonates with me): "....a powerful inner circle (clique) forms which reinforces that set of values by proactively censoring content that is deemed offensive and passively discouraging those whose values do not align. " It is IMO the task of the moderators to keep such cliques in line, even if only out of self-interest, because the clique members drive away and have driven away many valuable posters over time. It is pointless, not to say, ill-mannered, to tell any poster to "leave if you don't like it" just because that poster might make some constructive criticism. I am sure the site owners would prefer to know where improvement might be made, as would any organisation.

Very apt for ENA, I think